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Shree
10-20-2011, 10:35 AM
Inverted rubbers on hard ply (Carbon) laminated has advantage in Blocking and Backhand drive If compared Pips pips out it is good for keeping the ball low short pips and receiving high spun service we can flick the ball and make the topspin player guessing and one can decide to use pips in or out I advice vetran players to use pips out on back hand so that speed of the game can be reduced.

But I ultimately found that hard rubbers are good for both back hand and for hand who cannot move at the speed of the ball it keeps the ball low .
I hope this above statement holds good .

Thanks
Shreeshaila
India

azlan
10-20-2011, 12:08 PM
But not all pips out rubbers are defensive...some are more lethal than pips in rubbers.

Mr. RicharD
10-20-2011, 08:14 PM
Pips are deceptive in nature and slow the ball down therefore they are a defensive type of rubber. It's how you use them that defines the type of shot. Any rubber can be used for an offensive shot and a defensive shot. While I totally believe that every player should have the right to use whatever rubber they choose, I believe we need to create an organization that only allows inverted rubbers to accommodate the players who have trouble with the pips. There are already plenty of players witn pips in the current organizations and there are even sandpaper and hardbat events all over the world. What we need now is an Inverted only player to just make the complaining stop.

Pips are for players who prefer athleticism and/or deception over technique and skill. You aren't skilled at TT if you're using pips because they do most of the work. For the inverted rubbers technique must be mastered meaning a required skill level must be in place to win matches.

I've personally played players that are 400-500 rated points above my skill level and won against them when I've switched to any type of pips. It's a clear advantage and in my opinion only stagnates the growth of the sport. Deceptive players and pips players tend to really lower the level of play in an area because they rarely allow players to learn technique properly. Typically a player will learn from experience rather than coaching and therefore strike up some fairly ugly techniques. Their elbows are out of place wrist takes up more action rather than the arm and shoulder and footwork becomes terrible as they would rather reach than position for the strongest stroke.

I suggest that instead of complaining about the pips a player may use, help to start up leagues or events at tournaments where Pips are not allowed. Equality for all meaning if you want to learn how to beat pips you can take the time to do so, but if you want to just play inverted players there is also the option for that as well. If we were able to gain more players in events, I'm sure organizations would strike up more events across the globe.

So here's to some more TT Growth.

YosuaYosan
10-22-2011, 08:31 AM
Actually the usage of pips comes back to what is the player's playing style.
Look at Carl Prean (Long pips hitter) and Jang Song Man, Ding Song, or Hou Yingchao (short pips chopper).

And dang sir Richard, pips did not stagnate the sport, it stagnates lazy-to-learn players..
Once I understand pips, I could play against them easy..

azlan
10-22-2011, 10:11 AM
And dang sir Richard, pips did not stagnate the sport, it stagnates lazy-to-learn players..
Once I understand pips, I could play against them easy..

I have to agree with Yosua on this. Pips out players are just one of the variety in TT sports today. Some of their techniques are quirky, but we often find problems facing these unorthodox players. So why not seek out these players and practice against them. It will improve your overall footwork especially and increase your spin variety. And as for techniques, as long as it works for you. A good coach can always adapt and improve these quirky techniques.

UpSideDownCarl
10-22-2011, 05:37 PM
I play inverted on both sides but I love playing against pips. I have trouble playing against short pips but that just gives me the incentive to get better. I do not have much trouble playing against long pips or anti-spin because the main thing is that you need to watch the other player, which side he used, how he contacted the ball, and what spin you gave him. It makes you have to focus more. So I like that.

I do agree with Mr RicharD that having an all smooth rubber (no anti or pips) league would be fine fore people who do not want to play against deceptive rubbers. But playing against deceptive rubbers improves your game in so many ways, footwork, dealing with spin variations you would not have had to deal with otherwise, having to be alert and pay close attention to every detail of what the other player is doing. I again like it for the need to increase your attention and focus. That is one of the things I love about the game. And you cannot miss it when you misread spin. And it is nobody's fault but your own when you misread spin.

You can have beautiful looking strokes and great form and footwork but if you do not read the spin coming at you correctly there is more to work on in your technique.

Viva la differance.

As far as technique with deceptive rubbers, my experience has been, that there are players who use these kinds of rubbers and it retards their development of technical skill even though they beat players that they would otherwise have never been able to beat. And then there are the real players who learn good technique, continue to develop their good technique and use their pips rubbers as well.

I also know players who use smooth rubbers and use it as a crutch to make their smashes faster without ever improving their technique and without learning all aspects of the game so that they have a complete game. I have heard Hard Bat players complain about all smooth players like that. And then I have seen players who are good, have good technique put their smooth rubber paddle aside and give those same hard bat players a lesson with their hard bats. :) So, it takes all kinds. And good technique is good technique.

Shree
10-22-2011, 05:46 PM
Sir
Thanks for your advice and I would like to add to thought that Pips In or out
We should learn TT by scientific approach and train students at an early age we can show the feel of pips and plain and give and example to child who picks up tt at faster rate and if this child grows up he will not worry about pips in or out but he will be there on table applying his mind and playing grace full TT

Tinykin
10-22-2011, 08:10 PM
I sympathise with Richard. I dislike playing combination LP/Anti/Inverted players. I get no pleasure in beating them as the match was probably some hard slog with few enjoyable moments. Sometimes I get beat by inverted players who really banged the ball pass me but I still prefer that as I could appreciate the skill in those shots.
But I would not ban pips or anti.
I think the real problem inverted only players have with combi batters is not the weird rubber itself but the difference in pace, spin etc between the two sides. Pin the combi player on his LP side only and he has real problems.
My solution is to have a rule that players must have the same model rubber + sponge on both sides with as little difference in thickness as is practicable possible.
Tennis, badminton, squash have always had that by default.

Shree, very few players will ever get the chance to " learn TT by scientific approach and train students at an early age". As much as I agree with you, we have to think of how the vast majority get into and play the sport. Those who do get regular training, whether scientific or not, generally don't have problems with pips/anti etc.

Der_Echte
10-23-2011, 01:22 AM
I strive to find and play vs every style of player I can find. I am especially keen on playing pips players. The ones here are 90% LP OX on BH who play a BH punchblock with OX LP and FH smash kill any loose ball on FH. You have to think, you have to have effective and consistant strokes, and play the right tactics to win. I usually win vs these players, even if they are one full level above me. I really enjoy matches vs pips players.

For someone who does not have solid strokes that are consistantly landing, who does not control the ball well, who does not make good stroke decisions, who does not have good balance, who does not have the patience to hit a ball to the pips and finish the return... to these players, any player with pips who can keep it on the table is their worst nightmare. The inverted player who does not know how or is strong enough to cope with the LP player gets upset and angry enough to possibly quit the sport or throw a major tantrum. This is what some posters refer to when saying LPs hinder the sport. I can see the point, but a 2000 level power looper still crushed the 1500 level player to teh same degree and gets the same repsonse, so personally, I do no accept this as a hindrance to TT.

Now a skilled player who knows how to use SP on BH can be anyone's nightmare up to, but not including the pro level. A well trained SP BH player can more easily manipulate the spin from a loop and control placement well and rob your time by taking it off the bounce. The inverted attacker has to have way stronger attacks and way better control and way better spin variation control to cope with a skilled SP BH opponent. Korea has many of these players in National div 2 and div one, even more in div 1 in the regional tourneys. To defeat these div 1 SP opponents, you really have to play at a high level, because well, div 1 is a really high level and there are no easy matchups in div 1. Everyone there is a shark ready to kill you, shread your body up, then eat you.

Der_Echte
10-23-2011, 01:31 AM
Haha, I failed to address the most obvious flaw in players who fail to cope with LPs or whatever - FAILING to READ the SPIN.

I am glad Carl addressed this and is right on mark not only in what is the flaw, but WHO is repsonsible for it.

I really want to puke when I hear someone complain that pips should be banned because they are ugly and cause them to lose. They should motivate you to become better and overcome the problems that cause the loss. Still, in USA, the great majority are not in a situation to effectively train, or even train ineffectively, as it is very hard in many places to find even another registered USATT player of 1500 rating in a city of 100,000.

Der_Echte
10-23-2011, 01:41 AM
Thread hijack or suggestion for another discussion:

Why do many in your country fail to improve past a sub-solid level, like 1500-1700 USATT level??? In USA, many never improve past USATT 1700 rating, which is not really a solid player by any measure. Many in USA are in the 1500-1700 range, which is a group that has many of the problems I listed a few posts above. Just about any pips player who can keep it on the table 2-3 times a rally will win 90% of the time easily, causing the inverted player to lose temper, smash rackets, and storm out of the sport.

Even though players eagerly desire to improve, and posess the mental/physical abilities to improve well past USATT 2000, then why are so many NEVER getting past USATT 1700, even though they played the sport 10 years or more.

My answer is zero or little effective training, if they get to train at all. in USA, you might have to drive HOURS by car just to find a club. Even if you get to a club, most of the time, it is just matches. There are too many players competing to play on too few tables. Even in a place where there is a good coach, coaching in USA from a 2400+ level player can cost $50-$80 an hour. The cost alone is a show stopper for 90%. Very few places like Korean clubs in Dallas/LA are affordable with lessons and an evironment to grow.

WiWa
10-23-2011, 10:58 PM
Nice posts there Der_Echte :D I agree that pips players are nice to play against when you know what to do. I'm suprised about the training thing in the USA though.. Is it really that hard? When I'm not injured I get group practise twice a week from our former national coach, for a normal annual membership of the club. (Around € 100 a year)

Mr. RicharD
10-23-2011, 11:30 PM
@ Yosua - It does stagnate the sport. The number one complaint in the sport of table tennis from any type of player is that they wish people didn't rely on pips so much. The difference is that some have learned how to learn to beat pips and others just complain about them. I'm not saying that you shouldn't have the right to play with them. I simply am tired of hearing people who are too lazy to learn how to beat them complain about it at every club/tournament I attend. It shouldn't be banned entirely, there should just be an inverted only event that players can enter and worry more about skill rather than equipment. Then the majority of players have nothing to complain about other than some smaller items that you hear at tournys.

@ Carl - Not reading spin has nothing to do with technique. It's just lack of experience. The problem with pips players is that they typically will use the pips for two reasons. They already have poor technique that they would rather not develop and they need the deception of twiddling or just the LP to help them win the points. When using Long Pips you have 3 options that come from a variety of different type of strokes. You can reverse, cancel, or even corkscrew the spin that your opponent gives you. And when you aren't able to read those spins or are unable to reach the ball because of the lack of spin/speed on the ball it's rather annoying.

What I was pointing out here was that pips and anti allow an otherwise less skilled player to play others that are at a clear higher level. The sport becomes about winning rather than improving. I live in PA and we have one of the largest areas where LP and Anti are the common thing around here, but I have had so many players come in to learn about table tennis, but because they don't have the income to learn from a coach end up quitting because the pips and anti players refuse to play them so that they can learn how to play them. It's rather disturbing, but common place in the U.S.

With so many different styles and immigrants with different systems of training we have a conglomerate of players that are at a high level that do nothing to help grow the sport here. It's just a bunch of players who would rather win their 1-3K winnings each weekend and the rest of the players either end up quitting or just playing at a lower level because they have no one to help them reach a higher level.

This stagnates the sport and seriously needs to be averted. I'm taking it upon myself to correct the situation by hopefully soon creating a better organization where pips players don't ruin it for the new guy.

Ironically everything that can be done with pips and anti can be done with inverted it just requires touch and skill whether formed through talent or practice.

@ Tinykin - See that's the wrong way to look at things. Instead of just saying very few people will be able to do anything about it why not go and do it yourself? Get the ball rolling yourself and people will join in. Start up clubs, teams, leagues, and whatever else you can to increase both public knowledge and professional knowledge of the sport. It can be done, it just needs someone who's willing to say I'm tired of complaining and settling, I'm going to start doing.

@ all - Be prepared for the U.S. My goal is within the next 1-2 years to get the ball rolling so that we at least triple in size for who plays at clubs and how many attend tournaments. Thus increasing the prize money and also hopefully increasing sponsors willing to back the sport. I'm tired of sitting around and letting the organizations dictate that the growth of the sport should be 10% in 10 years. The Chinese took control of this sport because frankly we let them. We refused to fund programs where we could help grow the sport and thus create better athletes. They saw what was happening and adapted and we just kind of let them continue to grow until the current situation we're in.

Help me out by just doing something. Start a small club in a basement or go out and find a gymnasium or church or somewhere where you can set up a table and get people to play. Who knows maybe Waldner wasn't one in a million maybe he's just one in a thousand. Get the ball rolling!

WiWa
10-24-2011, 12:07 AM
@ Yosua - It does stagnate the sport. The number one complaint in the sport of table tennis from any type of player is that they wish people didn't rely on pips so much. The difference is that some have learned how to learn to beat pips and others just complain about them. I'm not saying that you shouldn't have the right to play with them. I simply am tired of hearing people who are too lazy to learn how to beat them complain about it at every club/tournament I attend. It shouldn't be banned entirely, there should just be an inverted only event that players can enter and worry more about skill rather than equipment. Then the majority of players have nothing to complain about other than some smaller items that you hear at tournys.

@ Carl - Not reading spin has nothing to do with technique. It's just lack of experience. The problem with pips players is that they typically will use the pips for two reasons. They already have poor technique that they would rather not develop and they need the deception of twiddling or just the LP to help them win the points. When using Long Pips you have 3 options that come from a variety of different type of strokes. You can reverse, cancel, or even corkscrew the spin that your opponent gives you. And when you aren't able to read those spins or are unable to reach the ball because of the lack of spin/speed on the ball it's rather annoying.

What I was pointing out here was that pips and anti allow an otherwise less skilled player to play others that are at a clear higher level. The sport becomes about winning rather than improving. I live in PA and we have one of the largest areas where LP and Anti are the common thing around here, but I have had so many players come in to learn about table tennis, but because they don't have the income to learn from a coach end up quitting because the pips and anti players refuse to play them so that they can learn how to play them. It's rather disturbing, but common place in the U.S.

With so many different styles and immigrants with different systems of training we have a conglomerate of players that are at a high level that do nothing to help grow the sport here. It's just a bunch of players who would rather win their 1-3K winnings each weekend and the rest of the players either end up quitting or just playing at a lower level because they have no one to help them reach a higher level.

This stagnates the sport and seriously needs to be averted. I'm taking it upon myself to correct the situation by hopefully soon creating a better organization where pips players don't ruin it for the new guy.

Ironically everything that can be done with pips and anti can be done with inverted it just requires touch and skill whether formed through talent or practice.

@ Tinykin - See that's the wrong way to look at things. Instead of just saying very few people will be able to do anything about it why not go and do it yourself? Get the ball rolling yourself and people will join in. Start up clubs, teams, leagues, and whatever else you can to increase both public knowledge and professional knowledge of the sport. It can be done, it just needs someone who's willing to say I'm tired of complaining and settling, I'm going to start doing.

@ all - Be prepared for the U.S. My goal is within the next 1-2 years to get the ball rolling so that we at least triple in size for who plays at clubs and how many attend tournaments. Thus increasing the prize money and also hopefully increasing sponsors willing to back the sport. I'm tired of sitting around and letting the organizations dictate that the growth of the sport should be 10% in 10 years. The Chinese took control of this sport because frankly we let them. We refused to fund programs where we could help grow the sport and thus create better athletes. They saw what was happening and adapted and we just kind of let them continue to grow until the current situation we're in.

Help me out by just doing something. Start a small club in a basement or go out and find a gymnasium or church or somewhere where you can set up a table and get people to play. Who knows maybe Waldner wasn't one in a million maybe he's just one in a thousand. Get the ball rolling!

I still think that using pips on a higher level does require a unique skill, which is indeed different from inverted. But it is still table tennis skill. Having said that I also think that the type of tournament/league u mention where only inverted is allowed would be appreciated by many players, so it might be possible to create some inverted-only circuit, which is for most new players a nicer way to meet table tennis. So I don't think it should be banned, but the seperate events can be a really good idea!

azlan
10-24-2011, 12:29 PM
Yes, using pips does need skills, a unique one at that. I tried and I failed miserably. The skill to make the ball sway, float, chop and even super topspin is just ridiculous. My team mate who uses an OX on his BH, he can really put tremendous spin and speed on his BH that sometimes put me to shame. hehehe

And as for the tourney, here in Malaysia, we do have such tournaments where only inverted rubber players competes. I don't participate in these tourney coz I kinda enjoy playing against long pips, OX, anti etc.

YosuaYosan
10-24-2011, 02:15 PM
Hah.. I should send this thread to OOAKForum to see what they would say :)
Anyways, I have my own thoughts about pips, everyone also has..

In training with a fellow inexperienced junior, I always twiddle to inverted or play with them with my inverted so I won't destroy their feel of the game. Nuff said.
For those people who don't understand, at any risk, I will tell them how to play against pips..

Shree
10-24-2011, 05:21 PM
Sir,
I appreciate your point of view that every one cannot get scientific training . But when a child learns to walk there is no scientific approach it tries to over come and attempts repeatedly and tries to reach the target .
Here I say that Pips in or out they are speed breakers and we should be more careful and try to watch the Ball as we watch the speed breakers on the road.

So watching the ball is like watching the speed breakers to succeed in our strokes we should be care full and try to executive the strokes as per the speed and spin or deception by a player and improve upon our game of Great TT
Tahnks

Shree
10-24-2011, 05:22 PM
Sir,
I appreciate your point of view that every one cannot get scientific training . But when a child learns to walk there is no scientific approach it tries to over come and attempts repeatedly and tries to reach the target .
Here I say that Pips in or out they are speed breakers and we should be more careful and try to watch the Ball as we watch the speed breakers on the road.

So watching the ball is like watching the speed breakers to succeed in our strokes we should be care full and try to executive the strokes as per the speed and spin or deception by a player and improve upon our game of Great TT
Thanks

Mr. RicharD
10-24-2011, 08:16 PM
I never said anything about banning rubbers. I'm all for keep rubbers in the sport because it is fun to watch players compete at higher levels that have no problems with the pips and anti.

As for skill involving pips. There is very little skill involved with using pips. If there was a type of skill involved then players would not all have different types of styles and awkward hits to get the pips to reverse spin or what not for them. For short pips you only need to know how to drive the ball as they produce dead balls and rarely ever need to be looping with the pips. I believe that LP players need crazy amounts of athleticism because it requires you being able to get to the ball or having great reflexes to chopblock off the bounce.

Let me explain what I mean by skill. There's natural talent and there's skill (something learned through training). You can use the pips over and over again, but you will rarely ever raise your level considerably each time you practice. Because the LP reverses the spin or the SP produce dead balls you rely on deception and hope the other player will make a mistake. LP players rarely ever attack topspin or heavy underspin balls. They prefer to attack dead or weak topspin balls making it easier for them to come in and smash (i.e. Chen or Joo). That's all athleticism. Anyone can train to get to that level and if you want technique Joo has the best form as he's the best Defender in the World. But skill has nothing to do with it because he hasn't learned how to reverse the spin the Pips do that automatically for him. If you wanted to reverse the spin with inverted that would take skill because it requires a physical effort to produce the result. Samsonov very often does this from far back where he'll corkscrew the ball so that it produces a "reversed" spin. The Chinese did this in the past where they would loop the ball with side and top spin to corkscrew the ball so that when the opponent blocked or countered the ball it would "feel" like it was underspin.

All in all, I'm not bashing on pips or any deceptive rubbers I just simply want to end the constant complaining coming from players who prefer not to use them. Create more clubs and leagues where inverted only events exist and then we reduce the complaints of playing pips players.

SimonDK
10-24-2011, 10:05 PM
Pips are for players who prefer athleticism and/or deception over technique and skill. You aren't skilled at TT if you're using pips because they do most of the work. For the inverted rubbers technique must be mastered meaning a required skill level must be in place to win matches.

I must ask you. The Chinese are saying, that there are/were no player like Liu Gouliang. Liu Gouliang was arguably the best TT player ever, and he played short pips in his forhand, do you really think he has bad tecnique, or was a bad player?
If you do not know him, there is a short description on "Wiki", also he is the head coach of the Chinese men's tabletennis team. This isn't a trol/flame, i am really intrigued on wether you do know him and think he is a bad TT player, og you just never heard of him?

Mr. RicharD
10-25-2011, 01:22 AM
Not at all. I don't believe he's a bad player at all. He also played in the 38 mm ball era with speed glue. It is far different now than it was then. Remember I'm just going over the definition of skill. Liu Guo Liang is an amazing player. He's won many titles and done so with short pips with a traditional Chinese Penhold Grip. Do I think his technique compared to todays technique is the same? No. Do I think today's Chinese technique is faster and better than his technique? Yes. But let me ask do you know who developed these principles into today's coaching system in China? Liu Guo Liang. I'm sure if you asked him whether or not in his prime if he could beat his players he would be happy to say. Of course not, I've taught them everything I know and they're better because of it.

Pips help you hit balls you would otherwise need to learn how to hit through training. That's what I'm trying to say. Do you really think that Liu in his day would have won all of his majors with anything besides the pips? I personally don't think he would have won as many as he did without them. Do I think he's a terrible player with or without them no. I believe he's perfected his technique to the best that he could with his equipment, but I think it requires less skill than having perfect the same technique that Waldner used with inverted.

I'd just like to point out that just because you use pips you aren't a worse player. I just believe that you have less skill in the area that you use your pips. It's completely logical that if you use pips on your backhand you most likely have a poor backhand compared to your forehand. If you use short pips on both sides then you most certainly are not practicing how to loop heavy underspin you are practicing how to smash the different side and top spins because they are the best to attack with in a point.

Basically pips allow a player to minimize the amount of training required to attack certain shots. Rather than learn all of the different attacks for each kind of spin the shorten the training period to just learning which ones are attackable and which ones the pips will likely return for you. In a match I have to look for spin, length of shot, height of bounce, and speed. That requires me to move both forward and back as well as side to side. The pips will allow me to cut down on what I have to look for and also where I have to move because I will most likely control where the ball is going.

YosuaYosan
10-25-2011, 09:12 AM
One day if we meet sir Richard, I would like to battle inverted-inverted with you.

There are 2 possibilities why people use pips one the backhand :
1. They want to cover their weakness. This is caused by lack of training to use inverted.
2. They can use inverted well yet their natural affinity could be delivered better with pips therefore their level of game peak could be heightened.

I am one with the 2nd attribute.
Hmph.

So you say that Joo, Chen Xinhua, Ding Song, Weixing, Wang Tao and all of the world class pips player are trying to cover up their weakness using pips?
If yes, you are sadly mistaken.
If no, then please realize that using pips to the fullest extent is much harder compared to using inverted.

UpSideDownCarl
10-25-2011, 11:03 AM
I am going to say that this argument is a little foolish. I am going to ignore the details and just say, IT TAKES SKILL AND TECHNIQUE TO USE PIPS.

It takes a different kind of skill and technique to use pips than to use inverted rubber. First, it takes skill to twiddle the paddle, and it takes technique. It is not easy to twiddle. Second, it takes skill to be able to hit with two surfaces as different as the smooth rubber on one side and the pips on the other. Third, it takes skill just to be able to hit with the pips side: when I hit with long pips it is strange as hell and really hard to get the ball over the net with control. They are dead and require a completely different technique for hitting than the smooth rubber does.

So in playing with pips you need technique and skill. In fact you need very different techniques to play with each different kind of rubber. Long pips, short pips, anti-spin and smooth rubber all require different techniques and you need to develop different skills to use each. In fact, you need different technique when you use Tenergy than you do when you use Hurricane, or Sriver. :) Technique is how you how you hit the ball. A flat hit is a different technique than a loop. Skill is something that can be worked on and improved. To get better with any kind of rubber you need to keep developing your technique so that you have skill in using it.

With any kind of rubber you can develop your technique and improve your skill or you can just play and not develop. I see players with smooth rubber who do not know how to hit a forehand or a backhand properly and have been doing the same funny things with their shots as they were when I first started playing who don't really get better and are just lazy and do not progress. I have seen the same thing with different kinds of deceptive rubbers. And I see other people, regardless of what kind of rubbers they are using, who develop their skill and technique and continue to improve.

YosuaYosan
10-25-2011, 11:19 AM
I am going to say that this argument is a little foolish. I am going to ignore the details and just say, IT TAKES SKILL AND TECHNIQUE TO USE PIPS.

It takes a different kind of skill and technique to use pips than to use inverted rubber. First, it takes skill to twiddle the paddle, and it takes technique. It is not easy to twiddle. Second, it takes skill to be able to hit with two surfaces as different as the smooth rubber on one side and the pips on the other. Third, it takes skill just to be able to hit with the pips side: when I hit with long pips it is strange as hell and really hard to get the ball over the net with control. They are dead and require a completely different technique for hitting than the smooth rubber does.

So in playing with pips you need technique and skill. In fact you need very different techniques to play with short pips than you need to play with long pips, and you need different techniques to play with anti-spin as well, and different techniques to play with smooth rubbers.

With any kind of rubber you can develop your technique and improve your skill or you can just play and not develop. I see players with smooth rubber who do not know how to hit a forehand or a backhand properly and have been doing the same funny things with their shots as they were when I first started playing who don't really get better and are just lazy and do not progress. I have seen the same thing with different kinds of deceptive rubbers. And I see other people, regardless of what kind of rubbers they are using, who develop their skills and technique and continue to improve.

End of story.

UpSideDownCarl
10-25-2011, 11:33 AM
End of story.

:) :) :) :) :) :)

WiWa
10-25-2011, 11:36 AM
I agree with Carl. It might be true that players who use pips on for example backhand don't have a good backhand technique with inverted rubbers. We don't know because we don't see them play with it. But players with inverted on backhand might have a bad technique if they would use pips. It takes a different technique, and so different, that you can't really say it involves less skill I believe. If you see how tight over the net Joo chops with his pips, thats defenitely amazing skill and not just his pips.

azlan
10-25-2011, 12:25 PM
hahahaha thanx Shree for the exciting thread! Loving it....This is the whole point of a forum, we have our differences, but at the end of the day, we are buddies. hahahaha. I respect what Richard is saying, it's just his opinion...we all have our own.

dici
10-25-2011, 01:58 PM
If I'm not misunderstand what Richard says about you take less skill by using pips out, it may about those pushblocker player with 2000 rating. But actually, you may achieve this rating too with some inverted rubber setup, just simply block all the attacks. This is because the players who are below 2000 rating has less consistency, and more ever, many people try to think of getting the point by loop/drive the ball very hard at the first hit.

But if you check on those pro with pips, especially the short pip. You can notice they have very different stroke. Because, different type of rubber does require different kind of technique. LGL did say once in the interview, he said that he is not courage player to develope the stroke to look good, but they should develop their stroke that give them a consistency on hitting it. And thats why his stroke looks weird most of time.

YosuaYosan
10-25-2011, 03:24 PM
If I'm not misunderstand what Richard says about you take less skill by using pips out, it may about those pushblocker player with 2000 rating. But actually, you may achieve this rating too with some inverted rubber setup, just simply block all the attacks. This is because the players who are below 2000 rating has less consistency, and more ever, many people try to think of getting the point by loop/drive the ball very hard at the first hit.

But if you check on those pro with pips, especially the short pip. You can notice they have very different stroke. Because, different type of rubber does require different kind of technique. LGL did say once in the interview, he said that he is not courage player to develope the stroke to look good, but they should develop their stroke that give them a consistency on hitting it. And thats why his stroke looks weird most of time.

Sir Olivier Mader ?

azlan
10-25-2011, 03:30 PM
If I'm not misunderstand what Richard says about you take less skill by using pips out, it may about those pushblocker player with 2000 rating. But actually, you may achieve this rating too with some inverted rubber setup, just simply block all the attacks. This is because the players who are below 2000 rating has less consistency, and more ever, many people try to think of getting the point by loop/drive the ball very hard at the first hit.

But if you check on those pro with pips, especially the short pip. You can notice they have very different stroke. Because, different type of rubber does require different kind of technique. LGL did say once in the interview, he said that he is not courage player to develope the stroke to look good, but they should develop their stroke that give them a consistency on hitting it. And thats why his stroke looks weird most of time.

Exactly...the higher rated players may not face much problems with these blockers. My advice to lower rank players..LEARN hehehe

Lorre
10-26-2011, 12:59 AM
Pips are for players who prefer athleticism and/or deception over technique and skill. You aren't skilled at TT if you're using pips because they do most of the work. For the inverted rubbers technique must be mastered meaning a required skill level must be in place to win matches.

Pips are for players who prefer athleticism, deception, technique and skill. Inverted are for players who prefer athleticism (e.g. just watch a match between two loopers - they also have to run and go through their knees), deception (e.g. on the serve), technique and skill (do I need to give examples of these?). Pips don't do most of the work for you: If I don't have a touch for the ball and I don't know what to do with the incoming ball, then the ball goes out.


I've personally played players that are 400-500 rated points above my skill level and won against them when I've switched to any type of pips. It's a clear advantage and in my opinion only stagnates the growth of the sport. Deceptive players and pips players tend to really lower the level of play in an area because they rarely allow players to learn technique properly. Typically a player will learn from experience rather than coaching and therefore strike up some fairly ugly techniques. Their elbows are out of place wrist takes up more action rather than the arm and shoulder and footwork becomes terrible as they would rather reach than position for the strongest stroke.

I don't know which level you are, but at my level, if an inverted player switches to pips and even plays just one level above him or against his own level, he'll lose more matches than if he was using inverted.
As for learning a proper technique: as a pip player you can also twiddle and use your inverted against newbies, but once they learn how to loop, they can learn how to play against your pips and their attacking abilities will go way up. They'll need to learn how to brush loop, driveloop and smash.
I practice on a regular basis against a good attacking player and his forehand isn't deformed in any way. In contrary, it has improved quite a bit during the past year.


I suggest that instead of complaining about the pips a player may use, help to start up leagues or events at tournaments where Pips are not allowed. Equality for all meaning if you want to learn how to beat pips you can take the time to do so, but if you want to just play inverted players there is also the option for that as well. If we were able to gain more players in events, I'm sure organizations would strike up more events across the globe.

So here's to some more TT Growth.

Ok, start a league where only inverted rubbers are allowed to be used, but don't complain when pips and anti users also organize their own leagues where inverted rubbers aren't welcome or are only welcome on one side. And be aware you'll hurt a lot of inverted players because they'll not learn how to beat a non-inverted player (because they don't encounter one), be aware you'll fuell the hatred towards non-inverted players that is already present in a part of inverted group and be aware you may bring the ITTF on ideas and as a consequence a lot of players may leave the sport just because of the ban of non-inverted material (e.g. older people, more defensive types,...).


@ Yosua - It does stagnate the sport. The number one complaint in the sport of table tennis from any type of player is that they wish people didn't rely on pips so much. The difference is that some have learned how to learn to beat pips and others just complain about them. I'm not saying that you shouldn't have the right to play with them. I simply am tired of hearing people who are too lazy to learn how to beat them complain about it at every club/tournament I attend. It shouldn't be banned entirely, there should just be an inverted only event that players can enter and worry more about skill rather than equipment. Then the majority of players have nothing to complain about other than some smaller items that you hear at tournys.

Well, non-inverted players are also tired of the complaints about the rubbers they use, as well as the abusive language, the gossip and the underestimation they are forced to experience. You can then go two ways: you can seperate these players even more apart, something an only inverted league will only encourage. Or you can bring those two groups together by making them understand each other.


@ Carl - Not reading spin has nothing to do with technique. It's just lack of experience. The problem with pips players is that they typically will use the pips for two reasons. They already have poor technique that they would rather not develop and they need the deception of twiddling or just the LP to help them win the points. When using Long Pips you have 3 options that come from a variety of different type of strokes. You can reverse, cancel, or even corkscrew the spin that your opponent gives you. And when you aren't able to read those spins or are unable to reach the ball because of the lack of spin/speed on the ball it's rather annoying.

Reading spin comes with experience, but those who complain about the non-inverted users don't read spin: that's for sure. Otherwise they would enjoy playing against a non-inverted user because of the variation and the longer rallies... Maybe they should gain more experience?
The group you mention exists: there are players who use pips as a shortcut, but this shortcut leads to nowhere. There is, however, another group of pip users who use pips to learn a defensive game (I'm not talking about pip blockers, because I don't have experience using this style) and need to learn how to play with the pips, what ball can be hit on which incoming ball, which ball you can expect from the return you just hit, what effect you send back,... You can do three things with long pips: add spin, cancel spin or reverse spin. The pip you're using doesn't do this at random, but you need touch, technique and skill to do this. It depends on what stroke you're using and how you touch the ball.


What I was pointing out here was that pips and anti allow an otherwise less skilled player to play others that are at a clear higher level. The sport becomes about winning rather than improving. I live in PA and we have one of the largest areas where LP and Anti are the common thing around here, but I have had so many players come in to learn about table tennis, but because they don't have the income to learn from a coach end up quitting because the pips and anti players refuse to play them so that they can learn how to play them. It's rather disturbing, but common place in the U.S.

At the lower levels this is unequivocally true, but at the medium and higher levels your first sentence doesn't hold. I agree you need to do something if non-inverted players refuse to train just because they just don't want to be defeated. I find that outrageous. I am always ready to train against other players and explain if they don't understand something: off course they also need to be willing to learn. Creating a just inverted league, however, is just the wrong answer to this for the reasons mentioned above.


Let me explain what I mean by skill. There's natural talent and there's skill (something learned through training). You can use the pips over and over again, but you will rarely ever raise your level considerably each time you practice. Because the LP reverses the spin or the SP produce dead balls you rely on deception and hope the other player will make a mistake. LP players rarely ever attack topspin or heavy underspin balls. They prefer to attack dead or weak topspin balls making it easier for them to come in and smash (i.e. Chen or Joo). That's all athleticism. Anyone can train to get to that level and if you want technique Joo has the best form as he's the best Defender in the World. But skill has nothing to do with it because he hasn't learned how to reverse the spin the Pips do that automatically for him. If you wanted to reverse the spin with inverted that would take skill because it requires a physical effort to produce the result. Samsonov very often does this from far back where he'll corkscrew the ball so that it produces a "reversed" spin. The Chinese did this in the past where they would loop the ball with side and top spin to corkscrew the ball so that when the opponent blocked or countered the ball it would "feel" like it was underspin.

Well, it is in this explanation I see you never used one pip before or not to the extend you need to really do something with it. You don't understand what pips do: you only repeat what other inverted or non-experienced non-inverted players say.
When you use pips for the first time, they drive you crazy. You don't understand what's going on. But with further training you understand what's going on and you'll learn how to hit the ball to create a certain effect. In comparison with inverted you also need to take the other guy's spin more in account because you cannot create as much spin as with inverted.
LP doesn't reverse automatically, especially with the current grippy pips.
What do you do with SP choppers if they only could create dead balls? They wouldn't last long. What does a SP player do when he's forced to return a ball below net height? Not returning a dead ball I assure you.
Did you ever see a match of Joo or Weixing? They attacks a lot of balls to their forehand with a forehand topspin. The reason why they don't attack a heavy underspin ball often with their inverted is because the return they are giving is easy for an attacker to attack and if attacked to their pips, the ball will fly out. The reason why they don't attack heavy underspin balls with their pips is because the returned ball is easy to attack for an attacker and they are again out of position. They occasionally attack heavy underspin balls, however, as an element of surprise. They attack heavy topspin balls: why wouldn't they?
They don't smash the ball, but loopdrive them. Only if the balls is smashable at a decent percentage, they'll smash the ball (but so will attackers).


All in all, I'm not bashing on pips or any deceptive rubbers I just simply want to end the constant complaining coming from players who prefer not to use them. Create more clubs and leagues where inverted only events exist and then we reduce the complaints of playing pips players.

I'm glad you don't want to bash non-inverted players, but you are perceived that way.


Not at all. I don't believe he's a bad player at all. He also played in the 38 mm ball era with speed glue. It is far different now than it was then. Remember I'm just going over the definition of skill. Liu Guo Liang is an amazing player. He's won many titles and done so with short pips with a traditional Chinese Penhold Grip. Do I think his technique compared to todays technique is the same? No. Do I think today's Chinese technique is faster and better than his technique? Yes. But let me ask do you know who developed these principles into today's coaching system in China? Liu Guo Liang. I'm sure if you asked him whether or not in his prime if he could beat his players he would be happy to say. Of course not, I've taught them everything I know and they're better because of it.

Pips help you hit balls you would otherwise need to learn how to hit through training. That's what I'm trying to say. Do you really think that Liu in his day would have won all of his majors with anything besides the pips? I personally don't think he would have won as many as he did without them. Do I think he's a terrible player with or without them no. I believe he's perfected his technique to the best that he could with his equipment, but I think it requires less skill than having perfect the same technique that Waldner used with inverted.

I'd just like to point out that just because you use pips you aren't a worse player. I just believe that you have less skill in the area that you use your pips. It's completely logical that if you use pips on your backhand you most likely have a poor backhand compared to your forehand. If you use short pips on both sides then you most certainly are not practicing how to loop heavy underspin you are practicing how to smash the different side and top spins because they are the best to attack with in a point.

Basically pips allow a player to minimize the amount of training required to attack certain shots. Rather than learn all of the different attacks for each kind of spin the shorten the training period to just learning which ones are attackable and which ones the pips will likely return for you. In a match I have to look for spin, length of shot, height of bounce, and speed. That requires me to move both forward and back as well as side to side. The pips will allow me to cut down on what I have to look for and also where I have to move because I will most likely control where the ball is going.

IMO this again illustrates to me how this whole pip debate can be reduced to a different world view. I think you view, among many others, that table tennis can only be played in one way: pure attacking. What you don't realize is that viewing table tennis as such depends on how you view the world. I can imagine you view your way of live, the one of the society you live in, as the only correct one because they always told you it was the correct way of life (I don't want to offend you, so correct me if I'm wrong). Compare the view you have on table tennis: they always told you that table tennis must be played in a certain way (i.e. attacking way), so you see that as the only good way of playing table tennis. But you see other ways of life and you allow them, but you see the way of life they've told you as superior to them. You see other ways of playing table tennis, you allow them, but you see the way the've told you how to play table tennis as superior to the other ways of playing table tennis.
Now, there are people who don't believe what they were told during their upbringing. They experience all the ways of life as equal, with all having advantages and disadvantages. They also believe these ways of life can learn from each other. They also tolerate other ways of life and estimate them as equal to their own. Compare this to the following table tennis players: there are people who don't believe the story of table tennis being a pure attacking sport because e.g. they feel more attracted to a defensive playing style. They experience all styles as equal, all having advantages and disadvantages. They also believe all these ways of playing table tennis can learn from each other. They also tolerate other ways of playing table tennis and estimate them as equal to their own.
I've been in both camps during my life: now guess what gave me the most logical explanation of the world and of table tennis?
I'm just 25 years old, but I've learned enough to know where discrimination leads to: nothing but misery. Just check your history books if you don't believe me.


When I read your posts I see a good chap who wants to do something about the things he sees going wrong, but he doesn't understand what he's going to do will make it worse.

RebTT
10-26-2011, 02:47 AM
Nice post Lorre! Wow, its been ages since I posted here, amazed I recall my details LOL.

There certainly is some mis-information floating around out there about pip players.

One of the funniest things I find is this notion that pips just automatically reverse spin for you. Ba-bowng! Not quite right! Different pips have different effects on spin to start with. And a different stroke will create a different return ball for any given incoming spin. And a different blade will have impact as well. Putting all of this together is quite a skill in itself. Using it effectively takes training and practice...and lots and lots of it. Working out the blade angles to hit the ball the way you want takes spin recognition, speed recognition and proper execution. Without those skills you are unlikely to be consistent in hitting successful shots time after time. Yes, at lower levels this is indeed less onerous. But to progress up to decent proficiency (not talking anywhere near pro level either), you need to develop good skills to use pips. I played dual-inverted for almost 30 years before I moved to pips. Admittedly, my TT seriousness has increased in the last 4 years of playing pips far beyond the 30 years prior. And my skill level is now far beyond my peak as a teen. But the skills I have learned by playing with pips has actually made me a better dual inverted player as well. Not that I play dual inverted often these days, but when I do, it takes me 15 minutes or so of hit-up to get used to the difference in power on my BH to having Ox pips there and I can then rip a BH loop. The precision of action I have had to develop using pips to do this has enabled me to transport that into a better action with inverted on my BH. But I am not terribly interested in playing inverted on my BH. I haven't spent years developing my pip shots to step backwards. TT is all about style and variation. Individuality defines us, and playing the game how we want to play it, not how others want us to play it (within rules of course) is what is great about it. If you lose to someone, no matter what bat they use, the idea is to get up again and have another go. The answer isn't to start complaining or segregating, the answer is to learn..as many have already acknowledged here.

UpSideDownCarl
10-26-2011, 05:34 AM
Great Posts Lorre and RebTT.

My experience with playing against pips players is that I have the most fun when I am playing against a good player who uses them precisely because of how much more attention you have to pay to every detail of what the player has done. Which side did he/she use, how did she contact the ball, is it dead, is it light spin, is it heavy? Did they contact the ball with a light touch, did they contact the ball heavy and get the pips to bend into the ball? It all happens in a flash. Against an inverted player the spin variations are so much more natural to read that I can sometimes check out and not realize it until I misread something. So I love the focus it takes to play against deceptive rubbers. I do like playing, no matter who I am playing, but I also find myself improving much faster if I can spend a certain amount of my training time working with someone with one kind of deceptive rubber or another.

And my experience, at the club I play at, the top flight players I know are totally not worried about what rubbers their opponent is using. They know how to play. A player who has a USATT rating of 2300, is not going to worry about the rubbers. He or she might need to know what kind of rubbers his opponent is using but they are not worried about it beyond that. If they are playing a pips player who is 2500 it is more than likely they will lose unless they match up well against that particular player. But it won't be because of the rubber. And if a 2300 pips player is playing a 2500 level smooth rubber looper, the 2300 level pips player will most likely lose most of the time unless he/she matches up well against that particular 2500 level player.

And I think it is worth remembering that in the 1950's smooth and sponge were considered JUNK and there were people who went around saying it was an unfair advantage and you did not need skill and technique to be good with those funny new rubbers and that they should be banned. :)

My rating is 1668 (USATT). I am happy with how I have progressed in the last two years going from being a complete beginner to where I am. Without the practice and experience playing with a lot of different kinds of players, especially a few of the good, solid long pips players I train with on a regular basis, I would not have gone from approximately a 500 rating to 1668. And I am 46 (not old but not too young either).

So I say, viva la differance. :) I have heard lots of people complain and make all kinds of excuses when they lose, but the equipment of the other player is never the real reason why a player loses. It is their own experience, level, skill and how intelligently they played in the match.

YosuaYosan
10-26-2011, 11:28 AM
Whoa !
Reinforcements have arrived from OOAKForum !

Thanks alot sir Lorenzo and sir Reb !
I believe this churns the view of pips for many lightsiders here :D

Once again thank you for the replies !
They are GOLD !

UpSideDownCarl
10-26-2011, 01:18 PM
Pips help you hit balls you would otherwise need to learn how to hit through training.

I'd just like to point out that just because you use pips you aren't a worse player. I just believe that you have less skill in the area that you use your pips.

Hey Mr, Richard, I would love to hear about how you do when you play players with pips. Are you good against them. How do you fair. Like if you play a player who is 2000 or 1900 who plays with pips, what are the usual results.

By the way, how did you do in that recent tournament you told me about. What is your level now? How much did it go up?

Lorre
10-26-2011, 08:11 PM
My rating is 1668 (USATT). I am happy with how I have progressed in the last two years going from being a complete beginner to where I am. Without the practice and experience playing with a lot of different kinds of players, especially a few of the good, solid long pips players I train with on a regular basis, I would not have gone from approximately a 500 rating to 1668. And I am 46 (not old but not too young either).

Wow, I don't think that's a bad progress, is it Carl?:) (I don't play in the US obviously while living in Belgium, but I'm familiar with the system by reading about it). There should be a lot more players with your character. You probably aren't at your limit either, seeing how you look at the sport.
I'm also quite curious about your percentage against non-inverted players, Mr. RicharD.:)

Mr. RicharD
10-26-2011, 08:55 PM
Wow funny how everyone misreads into my posts. Okay here's the definition of skill:

1. ability to do something well: the ability to do something well, usually gained through training or experience
2. something requiring training to do well: something that requires training and experience to do well, e.g. an art or trade

I've played with pips. I've played short and long pips and have beaten players who use inverted at the 2200+ rating in the U.S. I'm currently at 1061 or something to that nature, but I beat 1800+ players with my inverted setup.

Twiddling doesn't take skill because my students at there first day of training were able to do it even before I showed them how to hold a paddle shakehand. So I don't know what you're saying there. They do it involuntarily so I don't see how it can be said that it's a technique that requires skill because according to the definition they have not trained to do it they were just naturally able to do it. And no my students have never played a day of Table Tennis before I started teach them because they had never been opened to it.

I don't know exactly where Lorre is getting at. The whole point about my post had he read the full thread was that people like to complain about pips. I live in Lancaster, PA where we are a predominantly Long Pips area. Everyone here plays with pips either short or Long and they're all rated above the 2000 mark. I'm only rated at 1061 because I had a bad tournament against some players I've never played against from Maryland who had some very unique styles. I'll hope to attend a tournament shortly here and maybe my rating will go up. Come down to any of our Lancaster clubs if you're in the area I'd love to play any of you.

I've had about a dozen players from Penn State who switched to pips because of the clear advantage it gave them. They need only know how to hit off the bounce or chop block and they're able to beat many players at the clubs around our area.

I get that you all have some opinions about pips, but it's naive to think that they don't make shots easier. Where you would normally have to hit at a close angle you're able to hit a neutral to open angle because of the pips.

Maybe sometime soon I'll respond to Lorres post, but seriously you're all taking this out of hand because the whole point I was trying to make was that instead of everyone complaining about pips why not just create an inverted only league. There are plenty of Long pips and hardbat events at tournaments around the world but few have chosen to go inverted only.

On the topic of athleticism. Do you think that Joo Se Hyuk or Chen Weixing run less than the Inverted players they play against throughout the match?

To everything that Lorre said about deception and athleticism vs technique and skill you're subjectively stating that in one instance this happens and that happens, but to an overall match for hit for hit the stats don't lie. Joo runs more and uses the pips more in his hits. The inverted players that beat them run less and loop more.

And finally I'd like to end with your personal experiences. How many players have you coached and opened to the Table Tennis world? How many have quit because they played some pips players who did not to coach them on what to do to beat them. How many tournaments have you gone to where there aren't players who are upset by someone using a deceptive rubber.

I'll go first:

I started playing Table Tennis in 2003. Never heard about the sport and had never seen it being played properly until the week after I first encountered it. Once I saw I was hooked. At the time we had 10 members in our club with 3 rated players at the 1300+ rating level our best player was around 1600.

In 2004 I became the president and grew the club to 35 weekly members playing several days a week and using our rating system based off a starting rating of 1000.

Took a couple years off from school and it became inactive until 2007 when I started it back up again this time growing it to 65 weekly members playing in our rated matches and also playing against 3 other schools in the area. It wasn't until 2008 when we started attending better clubs that players started learning about pips. We had 3-4 players switch to the frictionless pips at the time and they were beating everyone at which point the following semester we had all but 15-20 players continuing to play in our rated matches and playing against the 3 other schools.

I went on to University Park where I was coached under Hank McCoulum and learned quite a lot from the team and club in general. That's when I really started studying about the science of the sport. Finally I went on to create my own club at the beginning of this year where we're currently at about 12 regulars each week and have had about 12-16 coming to our monthly amateur tournaments.

Now I don't know what your personal experiences are, but each and every time I introduce players to a club that predominantly uses pips and the atmosphere doesn't allow them to learn properly how to beat them they quit. There's no room for growth. I believe that players should learn how to play against pips players because I personally have learned how to beat pips players, but to say that it doesn't stagnate the growth of the sport is pretty naive.

If you hear about people complaining about pips then that in itself produces a negative connotation towards the sport hence creating poor growth.

In Europe look at the pips players there. Do any of them improve their technique because they'd like to have the success that Joo has had? Personally I'd say no. Just watch the ETTC womans matches and you can clearly see how low the level of pips players is, but yet they're still able to compete at the level of some of the top Euro women.

Again I have never said that people shouldn't have the right to use pips. On the contrary I don't believe anything should be banned because it just makes players angrier. Personally I believe that pips may require a different technique and even a different set of skills but I don't believe it requires more skill and technique than that of the aggressive inverted players say in the top 20 rankings.

The reason being all you'd have to do is watch the Joo vs Chen matches and they never loop each others pips balls they hit with their own pips. I don't mean to offend anyone by this post, but I just want to point out that pips are considered by the majority of players out there as a negative out look on the sport. And until people stop complaining about them they'll never be anything but negative to the sport.

Inverted can do everything that the pips can do, but you just have to learn how to use them. So for everything you're saying about how I have to learn how to beat pips players with inverted why can't I say the same thing to the pips players? Why can't they learn how to play inverted and beat players who use pips?

Wow I wrote a novel here, but I hope I got across what I was trying to say. No offense intended just my personal outlook on the growth of the sport.

WiWa
10-26-2011, 09:22 PM
@Mr.RicharD

The thing that now occurs to me is that in the area where u play probably more than 50% of the players uses pips. If that is true I understand ur point. At the club where I play we have like 150 members, from which less than 5 use pips. Also in competition the amount of pips players will be under 10% I think (not sure), but that is acceptable. I think with pips players it is like defenders, you get a good match when they play against a standard player, but not when they play against each other (defender vs. defender or pips vs. pips).

But the solution to that 'overuse' of pips would be to teach basics on how to easily beat pips. It seems to me that the average level of players there is relatively low, giving pips players the advantage that u mention.

Now I know those are just assumptions, but it seems for me the only way that pips could be bad for the sport. But please correct me if I made the wrong assumptions xD

Matt Hetherington
10-26-2011, 11:31 PM
Wow, intruiging little debate. Personally I find pips to add to the depth of the sport, they just add another dimension to the game. Remember not everyone necessarily likes to play an offensive style and having pips allows people to advantage themselves as defensive players. Let's not forget of course that players can attack with pips too. I would never pass up the opportunity to have a training session with short pips on my forehand for a bit of a slap fest :)

I don't see what the big fuss is about here, though in saying that I didn't go through and read ALLLLL of the posts haha

Mr. RicharD
10-27-2011, 04:33 AM
@ Wiwa - our level of play is fairly high we have several inverted players in the area who are all above the 2000 rating level. Our Long Pips percentage is probably a good 80-90 percent in the area comprising of over 40 players that I can think of atm. None of our players are choppers. Most are all chop blockers on the BH or some even like to attack with the Mccafee side spin shot. Then we have a couple Anti/LP players (they switch every so often) that all trained under Dan Seemiller perhaps the most famous of Anti Players.

I find choppers to be the most athletic players in our sport. They are all about consistency and crazy reflexes. However the problem with Long Pips is that there's no system in place to actually teach how to use it. If you pay attention to the players who are most popularly using the LP they all have different techniques that work for them. Because of this it's rather hard to judge the technique of a player when in reality they don't have any. Typically it'll become a chop fest from weird angles. Some chop with the forehand some chop with the back and they all look so different.

I personally don't have any problems with the LP players here because I play them so much. But the problem lies with the fact that new players in our area or anywhere where there's a high percentage of pips players will be less inclined to take up the sport. It's not exciting to watch chop blockers. I get so many comments from people at the rec center that I started my club in about why we need to take up so much space. No one realizes that the playing area isn't confined to just the area of the table, but of about a 20x20 foot court on both sides of the table.

@ matt - I agree with you there. I think that pips are rather cool and they make for a fun game to watch when you have an attacker and a chopper. It's just the majority of players out there do not strive to learn the technique that players like Chen and Joo use. They typically end up looking like Olivier Mader or even John Wetzler who's a 2200 rated player around where I live. He goes to our club and tbh I find it so annoying that someone who can hit so well with his forehand refuses to learn how to hit just as well with his backhand.

Our short pips players don't chop either. They are all about smashing off the bounce. Inverted would definitely never allow them to do that. It's because of these facts that I argue that Pips require less skill than inverted. The way I posted my argument I think has offended some people because it was a bit brash. I meant no offense just that there is a difference between the pips players as a majority and world class players.

YosuaYosan
10-27-2011, 09:18 AM
Muster up Richard.
For I found lotsa hole in your words, and I personally find it rather shallow :\

Let me type a 'novel' for you.

WiWa
10-27-2011, 09:21 AM
I'm not familiar with the ranking levels of play in America xD. But 90% is crazy, and I do agree that that might make new players quit the sport. Something there has to happen that makes people with inverted on both sides use their advantages against pips players, so the amount of pips players would lower automatically when they don't win with it anymore. But it is a situation I have never seen or been in, so it's hard to judge for me.

YosuaYosan
10-27-2011, 09:32 AM
Muster up Richard.
For I found lotsa hole in your words, and I personally find it rather shallow :\

Let me type a 'novel' for you.

But then I will deny my previous post "End of story."
Very well, let me quote some of your words sir and give my insight about em.

azlan
10-27-2011, 01:07 PM
Wow..80-90% pips!! For a beginner using inverted rubbers it's almost impossible to have practice strokes. Unless they're just lifting the balls over the net, but then again, that's not stroke. I always advice the kids, learn with inverted rubbers 1st, then if they wish, they may go to pips rubber later (when they're a lot better). They need to know the fundamentals 1st.

Lorre
10-27-2011, 01:25 PM
Wow funny how everyone misreads into my posts. Okay here's the definition of skill:

1. ability to do something well: the ability to do something well, usually gained through training or experience
2. something requiring training to do well: something that requires training and experience to do well, e.g. an art or trade

I've played with pips. I've played short and long pips and have beaten players who use inverted at the 2200+ rating in the U.S. I'm currently at 1061 or something to that nature, but I beat 1800+ players with my inverted setup.

Twiddling doesn't take skill because my students at there first day of training were able to do it even before I showed them how to hold a paddle shakehand. So I don't know what you're saying there. They do it involuntarily so I don't see how it can be said that it's a technique that requires skill because according to the definition they have not trained to do it they were just naturally able to do it. And no my students have never played a day of Table Tennis before I started teach them because they had never been opened to it.

Well, the twiddling action in itself is quite easy, but twiddling in a match situation using two different rubbers is something else: it is a skill. First your twiddling action needs to be quick enough, you need to take in account the technique required to use both rubbers on both sides and you need to remember which rubber is on which side (you're twiddling more than once during a rally) and all this during one rally. This probably all seems easy when using inverted on both sides, because their characteristics are more alike, but when using two totally different rubbers: not easy.


I don't know exactly where Lorre is getting at. The whole point about my post had he read the full thread was that people like to complain about pips. I live in Lancaster, PA where we are a predominantly Long Pips area. Everyone here plays with pips either short or Long and they're all rated above the 2000 mark. I'm only rated at 1061 because I had a bad tournament against some players I've never played against from Maryland who had some very unique styles. I'll hope to attend a tournament shortly here and maybe my rating will go up. Come down to any of our Lancaster clubs if you're in the area I'd love to play any of you.

I've had about a dozen players from Penn State who switched to pips because of the clear advantage it gave them. They need only know how to hit off the bounce or chop block and they're able to beat many players at the clubs around our area.

If you read the final sentence of my post, you'll see where I'm getting at and you'll see I respond quite directly to the whole point you're trying make in your posts.
My other remarks on the content of your posts is just to let you see how wrong some of your opinions are. What I find strange is not that you have (wrong) opinions about pips, but that you don't change your opinion when someone who is experienced with pips corrects you (i.e. me or some of the other 80-90% pip players in the area). It's like saying when you have a cold: it is caused by a virus, but when you consult your doctor he says it is caused by a bacteria. You don't believe him and still state it is caused by a virus. Now, who's probably right? You or the one who has studied as a doctor for many years? I'm not stating I studied for playing pips :D, but I'm experienced with using them andknow what I'm talking about (off course not at a fully detailed level of a Joo or a Chen).


On the topic of athleticism. Do you think that Joo Se Hyuk or Chen Weixing run less than the Inverted players they play against throughout the match?

To everything that Lorre said about deception and athleticism vs technique and skill you're subjectively stating that in one instance this happens and that happens, but to an overall match for hit for hit the stats don't lie. Joo runs more and uses the pips more in his hits. The inverted players that beat them run less and loop more.

It's not because player A runs 10km and player B runs 5km, that one of the two isn't athletic: both are. Your stats are correct and they only indicate that player A is more athletic than player B, but not that player A is athletic and player B is not.


And finally I'd like to end with your personal experiences. How many players have you coached and opened to the Table Tennis world? How many have quit because they played some pips players who did not to coach them on what to do to beat them. How many tournaments have you gone to where there aren't players who are upset by someone using a deceptive rubber.

I'm not a trainer because I'm frankly too young to this is in a good way (I'm still learning myself and that takes a lot of training time), but I train quite often against the (little) kids. If they are newbies, I just use my inverted to let them appreciate the sport. If they are already more advanced, I use my pips and see what they do right and what they do wrong. If they are interested (some are), I'll correct them.
I never have someone quit the sport due to my pips and many young players are interested in how I play (i.e. modern defense).
ATM I play in a atmosphere that is against pips. They say people using pips are cheaters or that they don't get beyond a certain level. This is also told to the kids. Some of them, including me, get an insult once and a while. This is told in presence of the kids. Now imagine how it feels for such a kid seeing the player who's constantly rising in level, who's always prepared to train with them and who's a training beast, using pips. Some will feel attracted to pips (so in a way pip haters create pip users:p), others will dislike it. But both group aren't getting the correct incentive: they are attracted or repulsed by the fact that I'm still rising (an emotional argument), while the decision of using pips must be made rational (is this person suitable for using pips?).
I regularly visit tournaments and when I was in the lower grades, there was really hatred against pips. One reason only: they don't understand what pips do and are helpless when playing against them. Now I'm in the middle and higher levels, most of this hatred disappeared. One reason only: the players understand what a pip does and when defeated, they are defeated by a better player, not his material.


I'll go first:

I started playing Table Tennis in 2003. Never heard about the sport and had never seen it being played properly until the week after I first encountered it. Once I saw I was hooked. At the time we had 10 members in our club with 3 rated players at the 1300+ rating level our best player was around 1600.

In 2004 I became the president and grew the club to 35 weekly members playing several days a week and using our rating system based off a starting rating of 1000.

Took a couple years off from school and it became inactive until 2007 when I started it back up again this time growing it to 65 weekly members playing in our rated matches and also playing against 3 other schools in the area. It wasn't until 2008 when we started attending better clubs that players started learning about pips. We had 3-4 players switch to the frictionless pips at the time and they were beating everyone at which point the following semester we had all but 15-20 players continuing to play in our rated matches and playing against the 3 other schools.

I went on to University Park where I was coached under Hank McCoulum and learned quite a lot from the team and club in general. That's when I really started studying about the science of the sport. Finally I went on to create my own club at the beginning of this year where we're currently at about 12 regulars each week and have had about 12-16 coming to our monthly amateur tournaments.

Now I don't know what your personal experiences are, but each and every time I introduce players to a club that predominantly uses pips and the atmosphere doesn't allow them to learn properly how to beat them they quit. There's no room for growth. I believe that players should learn how to play against pips players because I personally have learned how to beat pips players, but to say that it doesn't stagnate the growth of the sport is pretty naive.

If you hear about people complaining about pips then that in itself produces a negative connotation towards the sport hence creating poor growth.

Being a president of a club after one year and beating 1800 inverted players and 2200+ inverted players when using non-inverted rubbers while just being above 1000? Then there's really (1) something wrong with the rating system you're playing in, (2) you're a huge underrated player and very capable person or (3) there are only average players in your area and thereby all are able to beat all.
In your personal experiences it stagnates the sport, but isn't that a part your own fault? If I have to believe what you say (what I unevitably do), you're able to beat pip players, but you don't learn your own or other youngsters how to beat them? No, you have to create more hatred by creating an own only inverted league, because that's what you'll be doing: creating more hatred towards each other. And you don't help the youngsters either, because they don't learn how to play pips in that only inverted league.
Why not create a school designed to learn how to play against non-inverted players? Both youngsters and non-inverted players in one place, understanding each other, learning from each other and getting to appreciate each other. The once 80%-90% pip players in the area will significantly go down and only the good pip users will survive. Problem solved!:D


In Europe look at the pips players there. Do any of them improve their technique because they'd like to have the success that Joo has had? Personally I'd say no. Just watch the ETTC womans matches and you can clearly see how low the level of pips players is, but yet they're still able to compete at the level of some of the top Euro women.

I live in Europe and I'm improving my technique...:o
Did you ever see someone like Ivancan or Pavlovich competing? They are European, you know.:) Why wouldn't their level be at the top of the Euro women?
BTW, now you're stating pip players can improve their technique. So now pips players do have technique?


Again I have never said that people shouldn't have the right to use pips. On the contrary I don't believe anything should be banned because it just makes players angrier. Personally I believe that pips may require a different technique and even a different set of skills but I don't believe it requires more skill and technique than that of the aggressive inverted players say in the top 20 rankings.

Now pip players have technique and skill? Strange, reading your other posts. I never stated we have more or less technique and skill than an inverted player: we both have different techniques and skills that are equal in value.


The reason being all you'd have to do is watch the Joo vs Chen matches and they never loop each others pips balls they hit with their own pips. I don't mean to offend anyone by this post, but I just want to point out that pips are considered by the majority of players out there as a negative out look on the sport. And until people stop complaining about them they'll never be anything but negative to the sport.

So if everyone pays taxes to their local governments and if I'm not mistaken, most of the people complain about those taxes, then they are negative for the society? Maybe the players who complain about pips, should learn how to deal with them by going to your school. Then the negative effect you mention also will disappear. You will bring the two groups closer together by making them understand each other.


Inverted can do everything that the pips can do, but you just have to learn how to use them. So for everything you're saying about how I have to learn how to beat pips players with inverted why can't I say the same thing to the pips players? Why can't they learn how to play inverted and beat players who use pips?

It's true that inverted can do what pips can do, but it is nearly impossible for human beings to do it with the current speed and spin (e.g. creating a no-spin ball).
You're saying you're able to beat pip players: if I'm not mistaken, I never told you to learn how to beat pip players with inverted. I only made it clear a lot of your opinions about pips are incorrect.
You can't say that to them because they've chosen freely to use pips. You've chosen freely inverted as your basic setup and you're the one complaining about pip players. We pip players say: deal with it, whatever your problem is you're experiencing with pip players (in your case: they are negative to the sport because they don't want inverted players to learn how to beat them - they just want to win). I present you another solution for your problem, which is in part a real problem. Open a bounding school instead of a seperating league. Your opinions about pips are, however, totally incorrect. Ask someone who's willing to teach you something about pips and who's experienced in using them for advise and listen to what he/she says.

WiWa
10-27-2011, 01:51 PM
@Lorre

I don't think Mr.RicharD's point was against pips. He said that he doesn't mind playing against them.
I agree with u on what u said about teaching the new players. When you lead practise sessions you should raise them with inverted on 2 sides I believe, and when they later find out they prefer pips, no problem. The situation that 80+% of the players use pips seems to come from a massive early choice for pips among players. Seems hard to turn that back, but it is a great challenge for u and ur club to prove those people wrong Richard :D

Pips players are a welcome diversity to the sport, but on the scale it's happening in his area it went too far I think.

Lorre
10-27-2011, 01:51 PM
@ Wiwa - our level of play is fairly high we have several inverted players in the area who are all above the 2000 rating level. Our Long Pips percentage is probably a good 80-90 percent in the area comprising of over 40 players that I can think of atm. None of our players are choppers. Most are all chop blockers on the BH or some even like to attack with the Mccafee side spin shot. Then we have a couple Anti/LP players (they switch every so often) that all trained under Dan Seemiller perhaps the most famous of Anti Players.

I find choppers to be the most athletic players in our sport. They are all about consistency and crazy reflexes. However the problem with Long Pips is that there's no system in place to actually teach how to use it. If you pay attention to the players who are most popularly using the LP they all have different techniques that work for them. Because of this it's rather hard to judge the technique of a player when in reality they don't have any. Typically it'll become a chop fest from weird angles. Some chop with the forehand some chop with the back and they all look so different.

Well, that's a problem pip players face: there's no school to teach it from. But that's a problem pip players need to solve, don't they?;) But off course, if you're willing to work on a solution about this problem, I'm happy to contribute to it.
On the other hand: doesn't each inverted user also have a unique and individual style? Each inverted player plays different and their loops and pushes also vary. it's not always easy for a pip player to accomodate to that. So what you're describing isn't only experienced by inverted players playing non-inverted players, but also non-inverted players playing inverted players, inverted players playing inverted players and non-inverted players playing non-inverted players. It is in other words the spice of life: variation among individuals.
Btw, I don't appreciate your statement below the belt (i.e. pip players don't have any technique). It also makes clear you contradict yourself once again in comparison with your previous post where pip players had a different technique and skill.


I personally don't have any problems with the LP players here because I play them so much. But the problem lies with the fact that new players in our area or anywhere where there's a high percentage of pips players will be less inclined to take up the sport. It's not exciting to watch chop blockers. I get so many comments from people at the rec center that I started my club in about why we need to take up so much space. No one realizes that the playing area isn't confined to just the area of the table, but of about a 20x20 foot court on both sides of the table.

@ matt - I agree with you there. I think that pips are rather cool and they make for a fun game to watch when you have an attacker and a chopper. It's just the majority of players out there do not strive to learn the technique that players like Chen and Joo use. They typically end up looking like Olivier Mader or even John Wetzler who's a 2200 rated player around where I live. He goes to our club and tbh I find it so annoying that someone who can hit so well with his forehand refuses to learn how to hit just as well with his backhand.

Our short pips players don't chop either. They are all about smashing off the bounce. Inverted would definitely never allow them to do that. It's because of these facts that I argue that Pips require less skill than inverted. The way I posted my argument I think has offended some people because it was a bit brash. I meant no offense just that there is a difference between the pips players as a majority and world class players.

Why don't you learn modern defense at the school I've advised you to establish? According to you, that will lead more people to playing table tennis.
It is possible to smash with inverted off the bounce (if the ball is higher than the net height) ...:)
And again you contradict yourself: now pips require less skill than inverted. Now I'm quite curious about your response at the following question: what is it now? Do pips require no skill, less skill than inverted or another skill than inverted?
I believe you you don't want to offend anyone, but you're perceived that way by making very dubious statements and contradicting yourself. You're perceived as a lier and an ignorant person.

UpSideDownCarl
10-27-2011, 01:53 PM
I hate to do it but I have to: I asked Richard a few weeks ago what his rating was and he told me 1041, but that he was going to get his rating up to 1600-1800 because he was getting ready to play in a big tournament and that would up his level. Here is his record from the tournament:

Heo, Richard

Manor September Open

Wins
U 1600
Hoffman, Brian (1166) complete history
6 ,12 ,-8 ,7

Losses
U 1600
Hoyt, Sherwood (1363) complete history
4 ,6 ,9
U 1600
Snyder, Andrew (1591) complete history
12 ,8 ,-3 ,8
U 2000
Russel, Samuel (1869) complete history
12 ,8 ,8
U 2000
Portilla, Rafael (1750) complete history
4 ,-8 ,2 ,6
U 2000
Hoyt, Sherwood (1363) complete history
2 ,4 ,-6 ,-9 ,7

He won 1 match against a player rated 1166 and he dropped a game to him.

He lost 5 matches. One player he lost to was rated 1363. He lost to him 2 times, not just once. One of the losses he did not win a set (3-0 against a player rated 1166 is not possible for an 1800 level player). He also lost to a player who is rated 1591 (not a bad rating).

But there is no way in hell that someone who can really beat a 2200 level player or even a 2000 level player could possibly struggle against an 1100 level player or lose to a 1300 level player. It is just not possible.

Sometimes when you play a good player and it is not a tournament situation, they goof around. I have beaten a 2300 level player who is my friend. If he is playing for real, there is no possible way I would have a chance. No way in hell. I have also taken matches from 1800, 1900, 2000 level players with or without pips. But it was not in a tournament situation and I doubt they had their A game out. And just because I can take a random match from a player rated way higher than me does not mean that is my level. That is not how the rating system works. When you can beat almost everyone at the 1500 level, take random matches from someone higher than that and lose random matches to someone lower than that, when both of you have your A game on display IN A TOURNAMENT SITUATION, then your rating goes up to 1500. If you win against someone who is ranked a lot higher than you, your rating gets adjusted up a lot. When you lose against someone way lower than you, then your rating gets adjusted down a lot. The rating system actually seems to work.

In other words, usually when someone is rated in the 1100 range it is close enough to accurate. And when someone has been rated somewhere between 1000-1100 from 2004-2011, the rating is probably close enough to accurate.

I would say, the solution to there being a few pips players in your area would be to learn how to play against pips. Your skills will improve if you do.

WiWa
10-27-2011, 01:55 PM
I believe you you don't want to offend anyone, but you're perceived that way by making very dubious statements and contradicting yourself. You're perceived as a lier and an ignorant person.

Speak for yourself, mate ;)

Lorre
10-27-2011, 02:01 PM
@Lorre

I don't think Mr.RicharD's point was against pips. He said that he doesn't mind playing against them.
I agree with u on what u said about teaching the new players. When you lead practise sessions you should raise them with inverted on 2 sides I believe, and when they later find out they prefer pips, no problem. The situation that 80+% of the players use pips seems to come from a massive early choice for pips among players. Seems hard to turn that back, but it is a great challenge for u and ur club to prove those people wrong Richard :D

Pips players are a welcome diversity to the sport, but on the scale it's happening in his area it went too far I think.

Thanx for the reply, Wiwa.:) I agree with what you've said, except what you've said about his statement being against pips users: he says they don't have skill. That's quite frankly insulting for a pip player like me. Wiwa, if someone said to you that you don't have skill and doesn't know anything about your style, wouldn't you at least want to correct the guy saying you don't have skill and feel insulted, if only a tiny bit?
He might not have something against pip players, but it's clear he doesn't have knowledge about pips and IMO he's quite close to disliking pips (by not having the right info, living in a area full of non-competent pip players and stating some of the things he says).

Lorre
10-27-2011, 02:03 PM
Speak for yourself, mate ;)

I'll correct myself:D: you're perceived as a liar and an ignorant person by the majority of pip players reading your posts. Any comments on that one?:p

UpSideDownCarl
10-27-2011, 02:05 PM
By the way, I live in New York, it is not too far from Pennsylvania. I don't really travel to play since I have a job, a wife and a daughter. But I do not know of any large region like Pennsylvania where there are 80%+ players using deceptive rubbers. Of course I could be wrong. And perhaps Mr RicharD is talking about a very small area, but.....

Pips players do enhance the game by adding variations and giving you the opportunity to improve your skill at reading spin.

WiWa
10-27-2011, 02:30 PM
Thanx for the reply, Wiwa.:) I agree with what you've said, except what you've said about his statement being against pips users: he says they don't have skill. That's quite frankly insulting for a pip player like me. Wiwa, if someone said to you that you don't have skill and doesn't know anything about your style, wouldn't you at least want to correct the guy saying you don't have skill and feel insulted, if only a tiny bit?
He might not have something against pip players, but it's clear he doesn't have knowledge about pips and IMO he's quite close to disliking pips (by not having the right info, living in a area full of non-competent pip players and stating some of the things he says).

Well obviously I wouldn't like it if someone said that, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion ;) But also u have to agree that on a lower level it would be relatively easy to make points with pips. But I guess u are above that level and u know how to use ur pips, that is a different situation. It is also the reason why I believe new players should start with inverted on both sides. Not because pips are bad, but to prevent the situation where 80+% of the players use pips.

So the statement that pips require no skill is obviously not true if you look at a decent level of play. But on a low level you can win matches with it that you would have lost otherwise, without even knowing what your pips do :P And that is why I think we should keep lower level players from using pips, which seems to happen in the area Mr.RicharD lives in. So he might have spoken of pips players in general where his statement only applies to a certain group of pips players.

Personally I like to play against pips players, because against most of them you can execute a pretty straight-forward strategy. It then really comes down to your ability to serve, run and loop to beat them. :)

Mr. RicharD
10-27-2011, 08:05 PM
Hey Carl that's cool that you posted that. Why not come down and play me? We can judge whether I'm 1800 from that. Yes I had some trouble because frankly I've never played these players before. With Brian he's a friend of mine and I played him Penhold where he took one off of me. Sherwood and Rafael are from another club and I've never played them before. I had trouble with a lot of their dead ball chops hitting long over the table.

Snyder was another I hadn't played before and he also had some very awkward technique that I didn't understand. Now granted I play the 1800+ leveled players at our clubs every week. I know how to beat them from experience. I have used pips for a few weeks where I did beat a 2200 rated player in a match. I've also beaten players above 2000 that are severely under rated in my opinion because they refuse to go out to tournaments.

All of the players at our local clubs excluding mine are in their late 20's to early 40's. Many have played for decades and so on.

If you want to bash me because I'm just spelling it out that's fine. Play me and we can settle that argument later.

As for the pips question from Lorre, by definition no I don't believe that there is technique involved because frankly there isn't any set system. I don't believe that each and every technique used by all the different players out there provides a set technique that should be involved when hitting. With inverted there are systems in place and yes players deviate from them, but the majority do use proper technique. For LP I believe Joo's technique is currently the best and a system should be put in place to train as he does.

As for the skill question. By definition where the ability to become better through training I don't believe that many long pips players have less skill than the inverted. I believe that many do have skill with their training in place such as great clubs or proper schools, but as a majority I believe that more than half of the long pips players out there don't train their long pips because they rely on simply blocking the ball back. Short pips players could be devised as a majority involved in training, but I believe that they rely less on technique because the short pips allow them to hit certain balls that would require a completely different technique when using inverted.

I'm going to be stepping out of this discussion because it seems that many are more concerned with pointing out my own flaws rather than the facts at hand. Statistically speaking pips players are lazier, require less technique when training, and are a majority of the time playing at a level that they would otherwise not be able to without the pips. I think it's an advantage from my own personal experiences and I believe that it does slow the growth of the sport when there are overwhelming percentages of players in the area. I've used pips before and I didn't enjoy using them because of how inflated my "rank" would have been. Rather than play deceptively based on equipment I strive for improving technique and footwork.

If I had said anything below the belt for that I apologize, but as a generalized statement not directed at anyone it was statistically correct. I'm not one to bash on anyone, but I will point out the facts. So have at it fellas.

GrumpyJoe
10-27-2011, 08:11 PM
With a rating of 1066 I really have a hard time believing that you can beat anyone over 1500 much less a 2300 rated player. And when you said you have beaten 1800 players when you used LP? I dont think so. What I do think is that you have a very hard time dealing with any type of pip. And because of that you want to not ban them but just start something were you dont have to play against them. I have been playing this sport for a pretty long time now. Many have tried and many have failed. If you dont like to play against pips? Thats fine I dont care. Because there are plenty of other inverted players that will.

YosuaYosan
10-27-2011, 10:44 PM
Well what I want to say have been more than covered by some awesome posts :D


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jt--WBUnuOI

Check the point starting @ 0:28
Thats twiddling used by a genius..

Oh and stop telling me that it doesn't take skill doing that !

Matt Hetherington
10-27-2011, 11:19 PM
Now now children, play nicely :P

dici
10-28-2011, 01:33 AM
hm.., the 80-90% of long pip players in the area does suprise me. Oh yea, because going into there are so many using the pips, I just wonder how many players play with pip+sponge or pips only?

Because from my observation, when some random guys step in to ask to play a game with us, what I notice is that they could not get to use the bounciness of the sponge. Even with the hard sponge. It just too bouncy for them. Then in the end, they would take a hard bat and play with us. Oh yea, not even use those short/long pips with sponge, it still too bouncy to them.

I'm believe this may due to that many casual players are coming from those basement ping pong type. This may results that they too get used to what they used to.

Ok, so for my own experience from learning TT. It just not really pick up a bat, go to forum to ask which rubber is good for beginner. Actually, that time we all just use a friendship 729 rubber. If not mistake, my first few lessons are all about basic footwork, the theory of spin (yes, theory, what stroke and how it generates what spin), then a very very very basic FH and BH. I did talk about the theory of spin right, oh yea, just dont under estimate this thing. Even my friend who good at basketball, badminton, he did tell me that he never able to understand all this spin stuff at all when I messing with him. And even for those non-beginner player, some time they would just not able to understand why they keep missing the drive/loop from a simple serve.

YosuaYosan
10-28-2011, 11:12 AM
Is this Mr.RicharD ?
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=9333016&sk=info

azlan
10-28-2011, 11:39 AM
Now now children, play nicely :P

hahahahha!!

I think Richard didn't mean to hurt anyone's feeling. They are just his thoughts guys. That's the whole point of joining a forum, to discuss. It's nothing personal. So come on guys, move along. ;) Let's be a lil more constructive...

YosuaYosan
10-28-2011, 03:22 PM
Well obviously our replies are also our thoughts and yes we are discussing. We are moving along and we are constructive, but maybe in a bit hard way ;)

UpSideDownCarl
10-28-2011, 06:58 PM
I am going to try and keep this on as positive a level as possible. I have nothing against anyone personally and I just want to say this for the record:

Mr RicharD,

Since you joined, I have found a great number of your posts on this forum top notch. I think you are obviously a person who has a passion for table tennis. I appreciate much of what you have to say on many subjects. There are two areas where I think what you say does not seem to fit. The first is that most of what you seem to have to say about pips players sounds to me like it comes from someone who does not understand how pips work and who does not like pips. The second area is that it sounds like you are trying to present yourself as a high level player. Who cares what level you are? Nobody, really. It doesn't come up unless you have brought up the subject as part of why you "know" so much. Nobody knows everything. We all, even the most knowledgeable on the subject of Table Tennis, have areas of expertise and areas where we do not really know the information. Level has nothing to do with it. I know many players whose level is low who have a great ability to see certain details and give good, helpful information. I also know plenty of players who have great strokes and really solid fundamentals but do not have great game skills or tournament skills and there USATT rating might be under 1000. I don't think there is anything wrong with that. I know people who play great in matches in practice and then when they play tournaments they get nervous and tight and do not play well. There is also nothing wrong with that. But if that is the case that is the level that they are at. The USATT rating is what it is. I also know a few players who, if you ask them their rating and they don't know you, they usually say 1900. Then if they know you and know you know what time of day it is, they might say, "I am 1550 but I beat a lot of 1900 and 2000 level players." I have one friend who says things like this and then I see him play pips players and he has no idea what to do against them. That is why he cannot get his rating up and that is why he really is 1550 and not 1900. You have to be able to beat over 90% of the players under 1875 to be 1900. That is how the rating system ends up working. When you get to that level, and you earn that rating through playing lots of players with strange and unique styles and you can adjust to their style and play them and take the match in the tournament, your level goes up. But there is nothing wrong with being a player who is passionate about Table Tennis who has a lot of knowledge and many skills but has trouble taking matches in tournaments against players who are rated in the 1300 range but have an unfamiliar style.

Someone somewhere in a post I saw recently said that players in the US tend to get to a 1600-1800 level and then don't progress or don't continue. He noted that 1600-1800 is not really a very high level. I would agree with both statements. When players start getting to be really solid fundamentally on all levels is somewhere between 2000 and 2300. I will keep trying to improve and who knows, perhaps one day I will be able to get there.


Hey Carl that's cool that you posted that. Why not come down and play me?

I work 7 days a week, some days I have a light schedule, but, having a wife and daughter, and trying to keep up with the bills, would make a trip to Pennsylvania for Table Tennis a little irresponsible on my part. But here is an invitation. If you want to come up to NYC, we can hang out, I can show you some of the spots to play in this city and we can play some matches too. You can PM me if you want to come up, and we can sort out details of contacting, getting together and having some fun, getting to know each other and playing the best sport in the world.


We can judge whether I'm 1800 from that.

Playing matches outside of a USATT tournament will never get you to be 1800. It might help improve your skills so that you can eventually earn that rating through the system that is in place, but no amount of matches will get you an 1800 rating unless they are played in a sanctioned tournament. And through good solid work, a good player can get their rating up to that level if they have the skills. When you get there you earn that rating through your play in matches in the tournaments. The rest is talk. There is a value to that system.


Yes I had some trouble because frankly I've never played these players before. ... Sherwood and Rafael are from another club and I've never played them before. I had trouble with a lot of their dead ball chops hitting long over the table.

I don't think it is a problem to have lost to any of the players you lost to, that is the reality of tournaments. However, a player who is actually legitimately somewhere between 1800-2000 would never lose to a 1300 level player because the player was unfamiliar to him. That is part of what earning the rating means. You would not lose to a player just because you did not know his style. You certainly would not lose to him 2x in one tournament. A true 1800 level player would adjust to dead balls in in 2 or 3 points at most. But lets say it took half of the first game. If you are rated 500-700 points higher than another player, after the first half of the first game it should be like playing with a small child. And truthfully, it should not even take that, because, if you haven't seen him, he hasn't seen you. He is in the same boat. Therefore the higher level player should have the clear advantage right from the first point.

Again, I do not think it matters what someone's rating is, and I do think it is okay to be someone who has trouble adjusting to new players and new serves and different tactics. But if you have trouble adjusting to dead balls, it says a lot. And if you need to be playing players whose style you know, to have a chance at winning, you have earned the rating you have earned. That is how it is.


Snyder was another I hadn't played before and he also had some very awkward technique that I didn't understand.

An 1800 level player can lose to a player who is just under 1600. It should not happen very often but it can happen once in a while. But again, if his style was new to you, your style should have been new to him as well so you are both in the same boat and, a higher level player should have a clear advantage there. The only point I would make with this is that a player who really, actually belongs in the 1800 category should be able to take care of a player who is 1590 99% of the time. Again, there is nothing wrong with being at what ever level you are at. I know you have the mindset of wanting to improve your skills so I respect that. But a player who is rated 1066 who really should be rated 1800, his rating would go up drastically in every tournament he entered until it hit an accurate rating. A player who is rated 1066 who should be rated 1290 might raise their level much more slowly. There is no shame in that and there are any number of reasons why that progress might be slow. But no shame in any of them. A player who has trouble reading spin and dead balls from pips players might also have trouble reading serves. Once he knows those serves from that player, he might play great. But that would be a reason why one player who has 2000 level looping skills and 900 level return of serve skills and 1000 level pips playing skills might stay rated at 1200 for a long long time. Until the weaknesses are sured up, the level will not go up. But that just gives us things to work on. So as long as the idea is improving skills is part of your mindset, this is a positive issue . There are always things to improve on.


If you want to bash me because I'm just spelling it out that's fine.

I would not bash anyone. But it would be fun to meet you, hang out, get to know you, and see how you play a variety of players.

By the way, don't you need to sustain a rating of above 1600 for a certain period of time to be eligible to get the USATT credentials for coaching in the US?


@ Carl - Not reading spin has nothing to do with technique.

What the WHAT! :) And my guess is that, herein lies the problem. :cool:

Now I want to say something about pips. Because this, I think is worthwhile info. I have a friend who is a pips player who is rated 2200. He can play any way he wants, but he chooses shakehand pips. He can play smooth on both sides, he can play penhold, long pips, short pips anything, lefty too. :) When he plays with smooth on both sides his level is not very different than when he uses the long pips/smooth setup. The long pips setup is just what he likes best. When he hits with me, sometimes he does this thing, so that I can learn to read the spin better. I loop and he chops and this is what he does. While my shot is coming at him he will say one of three things: Dead, Light or Heavy. When he says dead, he is going to chop and the ball will come back dead, no spin. When he says light, he will chop and the ball will come back with light underspin. When he says heavy, the ball will come back with heavy underspin, and I mean heavy. He is doing it so I can learn to see the difference in the contact and in the trajectory of the ball from the spin. The stroke is the same. The contact is different and he can control and vary the spin to an amazing degree. There is real subtlety to this and there is real skill. You can do a lot of things with pips. And for playing against pips, the most important thing is to keep paying attention and learn to tell what spin is coming at you.

As far as there being no system for pips, I would not know. That is not my area of knowledge but it seems that there are basic strokes for chopping just like there are basic strokes for loops. There are also basic techniques for blocking. And as far as there being a set system for topspin game, my experience is that this is not so accurate. There are basic strokes and then there are differences. The Chinese loop is different from the European loop. Ma Long's loop is different than Wang Hao's or Zhang Jike's loop. Timo Boll's loop is different from Vladimir Samsonov's loop. And every coach in NY that I know of teaches slightly differently. :) Viva la differance.

YosuaYosan
10-28-2011, 08:14 PM
Wise words from a Yoga master ;)

Lorre
10-29-2011, 02:25 PM
Well obviously I wouldn't like it if someone said that, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion ;) But also u have to agree that on a lower level it would be relatively easy to make points with pips. But I guess u are above that level and u know how to use ur pips, that is a different situation. It is also the reason why I believe new players should start with inverted on both sides. Not because pips are bad, but to prevent the situation where 80+% of the players use pips.

So the statement that pips require no skill is obviously not true if you look at a decent level of play. But on a low level you can win matches with it that you would have lost otherwise, without even knowing what your pips do :P And that is why I think we should keep lower level players from using pips, which seems to happen in the area Mr.RicharD lives in. So he might have spoken of pips players in general where his statement only applies to a certain group of pips players.

Personally I like to play against pips players, because against most of them you can execute a pretty straight-forward strategy. It then really comes down to your ability to serve, run and loop to beat them. :)

Well, I agree with you that beginning players should learn to use both inverted. Once they've learned the basics with those, you can then see what they like to do with the inverted, when they hit the ball and what style they like.

But when they're starting playing competition, they should be equipped with pips. At least that's what I did. It didn't hurt me, in contrary.
You can debate about beginning competition players using pips: yes or no. If choosing 'yes', they'll probably pass lower levels quite quickly, but only if and only if they are talented as pip players. Only those will reach the intermediate and higher levels. It is also a good shifting technique for inverted players: it will shift those who don't think while playing.
If you choose "no" and let us say you oblige people to use only inverted until a certain level (i.e. intermediate), then it will (1) take a while for an inverted player to convert to pips (taking in account technique differences, tactical differences and "used muscles" differences), (2) some will not succeed in that conversion and (3) some will not even reach those intermediate levels using inverted (because they are a lot more talented with pips than inverted).

Maybe it is the fault of the good pip players letting "not talented for pip play and/or for any kind of play" players use pips and maybe it is fault of inverted players to assign almost magical characteristics to pips that attract those kind of players.

Lorre
10-29-2011, 02:59 PM
Hey Carl that's cool that you posted that. Why not come down and play me? We can judge whether I'm 1800 from that. Yes I had some trouble because frankly I've never played these players before. With Brian he's a friend of mine and I played him Penhold where he took one off of me. Sherwood and Rafael are from another club and I've never played them before. I had trouble with a lot of their dead ball chops hitting long over the table.

Snyder was another I hadn't played before and he also had some very awkward technique that I didn't understand. Now granted I play the 1800+ leveled players at our clubs every week. I know how to beat them from experience. I have used pips for a few weeks where I did beat a 2200 rated player in a match. I've also beaten players above 2000 that are severely under rated in my opinion because they refuse to go out to tournaments.

All of the players at our local clubs excluding mine are in their late 20's to early 40's. Many have played for decades and so on.

If you want to bash me because I'm just spelling it out that's fine. Play me and we can settle that argument later.

I find it very strange how you determine your own level of play. If you lose to someone (below your perceived level of play), your excuse is that you don't know him/his style. If you win from someone (above your perceived level of play), then it is your own effort and not the long experience you've had with playing this guy. You get your level of play by playing guys in a certain rating system, whether they are known or not. Period.


As for the pips question from Lorre, by definition no I don't believe that there is technique involved because frankly there isn't any set system. I don't believe that each and every technique used by all the different players out there provides a set technique that should be involved when hitting. With inverted there are systems in place and yes players deviate from them, but the majority do use proper technique. For LP I believe Joo's technique is currently the best and a system should be put in place to train as he does.

So pip players have no technique, but Joo (a pip player) has technique? So if it is inherent to a pip player that he has no technique, how on earth can Joo have any technique? Or, if Joo is your only exception, how on earth can Chen have any technique?


As for the skill question. By definition where the ability to become better through training I don't believe that many long pips players have less skill than the inverted. I believe that many do have skill with their training in place such as great clubs or proper schools, but as a majority I believe that more than half of the long pips players out there don't train their long pips because they rely on simply blocking the ball back. Short pips players could be devised as a majority involved in training, but I believe that they rely less on technique because the short pips allow them to hit certain balls that would require a completely different technique when using inverted.

I'm going to be stepping out of this discussion because it seems that many are more concerned with pointing out my own flaws rather than the facts at hand. Statistically speaking pips players are lazier, require less technique when training, and are a majority of the time playing at a level that they would otherwise not be able to without the pips. I think it's an advantage from my own personal experiences and I believe that it does slow the growth of the sport when there are overwhelming percentages of players in the area. I've used pips before and I didn't enjoy using them because of how inflated my "rank" would have been. Rather than play deceptively based on equipment I strive for improving technique and footwork.

Then show me the statistics.

Getting out of the discussion is the worst thing you can do: those who retreat, are always wrong (a saying in our region).

You're entitled to have your opinion. But that opinion is based on certain perceived facts. I've replied that most of your perceived facts are simply wrong. This comes from an experienced pip player (i.e. me). Remember the story of the virus and the doctor in one of my previous posts. Why not adjust your opinion then?
I don't read anything about my proposed school in your reply. Why not? If it is a possible solution to your problem, why not talk about it?

I find this kind of cognitive inertia sad, because it is this kind of mentality that causes a lot of harm to a lot of people.:( Talk about it, perceive the world taking the other's perspective and adjust consequently (I've did that: I could bombard you with all kinds of insults, but I've understood your problem - I couldn't do that without taking your perspective). It is only then that we can meet each other in our world of view.


If I had said anything below the belt for that I apologize, but as a generalized statement not directed at anyone it was statistically correct. I'm not one to bash on anyone, but I will point out the facts. So have at it fellas.

Thx: apologies accepted.:)

Lorre
10-29-2011, 03:02 PM
I did talk about the theory of spin right, oh yea, just dont under estimate this thing. Even my friend who good at basketball, badminton, he did tell me that he never able to understand all this spin stuff at all when I messing with him. And even for those non-beginner player, some time they would just not able to understand why they keep missing the drive/loop from a simple serve.

Spot on.:)

Lorre
10-29-2011, 03:05 PM
hahahahha!!

I think Richard didn't mean to hurt anyone's feeling. They are just his thoughts guys. That's the whole point of joining a forum, to discuss. It's nothing personal. So come on guys, move along. ;) Let's be a lil more constructive...

I agree: don't get personal by e.g. linking a facebook page.

That does not solve anything. For me, however, the point of a discussion is to understand each other: I don't have the feeling RicharD does that/wants to do that.

Lorre
10-29-2011, 03:17 PM
Good post, Carl.;)

YosuaYosan
10-29-2011, 04:50 PM
I agree: don't get personal by e.g. linking a facebook page.

That does not solve anything. For me, however, the point of a discussion is to understand each other: I don't have the feeling RicharD does that/wants to do that.

If its him I want to add him :)
Like sir Carl said, I think we are cool bunch of ppl rite ?

WiWa
10-29-2011, 07:41 PM
If its him I want to add him :)
Like sir Carl said, I think we are cool bunch of ppl rite ?

Yes we are haha.

And I agree with ur reaction on my post Lorre. It is a bit of a gray area though. Like: there's nothing wrong with playing pips, but pips vs. pips often is a boring match (like defender vs. defender) and you dont want that either. So it's indeed best we just let everyone choose to their own preferences and see what happens :P

Matt Hetherington
10-30-2011, 03:38 AM
Oh well in that case I'm expecting more of you to add me :P https://www.facebook.com/pingpongwizard

YosuaYosan
10-30-2011, 04:51 AM
Oh well in that case I'm expecting more of you to add me :P https://www.facebook.com/pingpongwizard

If it is adressed to me, I have befriend you in fb a few months ago :D

Dam your new profil pict looks spooky..

UpSideDownCarl
10-30-2011, 10:45 AM
Yes we are haha.

And I agree with ur reaction on my post Lorre. It is a bit of a gray area though. Like: there's nothing wrong with playing pips, but pips vs. pips often is a boring match (like defender vs. defender) and you dont want that either. So it's indeed best we just let everyone choose to their own preferences and see what happens :P

It is true that you can have a pips v pips match that is boring but, I have also seen some pretty good pips v pips matches.

But I don't think this was being presented until you brought it up Wiwa. It was a good observation on your part. If there really is 80% + pips players in Mr RicharD's area this would come up a lot. But I honestly doubt that there is, because if there was, he might know how to play pips players better and he might therefore be happy to play pips players since they are actually fun to play when you know how the pips work. And also, he might have brought up this issue of pips v pips play as a problem but he did not. He jumped on it for a second when you mentioned it though. But, to me, that looked more like he was trying to use it as support for his arguments about pips players being able to beat players they should not be able to beat.

I think most of the discussion before that, that people were responding to was that, it was being presented that pips take no skill to play with and pips players have no technique and that they somehow, because of equipment rather than anything they are doing, are able to beat much higher rated players. And I also believe this was being presented by a player who probably has trouble playing against pips since, several times he said that pips do nothing but create dead balls, which to me means, he does not know how they work. Mr RicharD never presented the issue of being bored by watching matches where pips players are playing pips players until you mentioned it. He was saying that with pips you can have no skill and no technique and beat higher rated inverted players. That is really all that he seemed to be concerned with. So my assumption was that he was saying, that he loses to pips players who he thinks he is better than. And hence, his suggestion of a league with only smooth rubber players. :)

Also, I saw, in another post, in another thread, someone asked him about his rating and his answer was that he was trying to get his rating up but was having trouble because of the amount of pips players in the tournaments in his area. However, in this thread he said he has no trouble playing against pips players. So I think Mr RicharD might be trying to blame his loses on the equipment of his opponents rather than learning how to play against pips players and other kinds of specialty equipment.

Learning how to play against pips players is the real answer to having pips players in your area. If you know how to take care of them, their equipment is no longer an issue. Then, when you are up against a player who you are better than, you usually win, and when you are up against a player who is better than you sometimes you can play well and take a match but you will probably lose much of the time. And if you lose against a player consistently, then they are probably better than you in some way. But there is no harm in that and you know that it is not the equipment they are using. That is a poor excuse will only keep a player from learning and improving.

I do know some players who, when they win, it is always something that they did well, and when they lose there are always excuses. It is okay to say that the other player did well. When you lose, it can show you parts of your game that need work if you are open to that information. But if you make excuses and don't look at why you cannot handle certain kinds of players you can stagnate your own progress in the sport.

azlan
10-30-2011, 01:45 PM
Well logically thinking, if there're a lot of players playing pips in my area, I would be the pips master! hahaha I would be so good playing against pips that they have nothing on me..hehehe

YosuaYosan
10-30-2011, 03:42 PM
Well logically thinking, if there're a lot of players playing pips in my area, I would be the pips master! hahaha I would be so good playing against pips that they have nothing on me..hehehe

That makes me thinking good sir.
Human could strive for their vast ability to learn and adapt to survive in whatever condition presented.
If there are lots of 'pips predator' in an area, one should learn and adapt to 'survive'.
Continuous difficulty in 'surviving' could only mean one thing.. Inadaptability and laziness to learn..

Lorre
10-30-2011, 03:52 PM
That makes me thinking good sir.
Human could strive for their vast ability to learn and adapt to survive in whatever condition presented.
If there are lots of 'pips predator' in an area, one should learn and adapt to 'survive'.
Continuous difficulty in 'surviving' could only mean one thing.. Inadaptability and laziness to learn..

Or how a table tennis discussion can turn into a filosophical darwinistic discussion...:cool:

Shree
10-30-2011, 04:04 PM
Mr RicharD,
Dear friend

I read your views and was happy to here all players are interested in this topic pips in or pips out
it is power of TT that where a player has to put more effort in facing long pips and and short pips and needs to be care full.
Now it is clear we have all have to work hard to promote this game(TT) in big way and learn by our mistakes.

Now I have simple suggestion if have pips opponent we have to play opposite if you want to hit shot we should do a simple serve and with speed so that opponent is confused to use his pips he will put the ball to net or give it high so that you can smash if the speed is reduced by the opponent still you can place.

Never give back spin you will not be able to hit topspin if you give topspin you will get a back spin so that you can hit a top spin.
Pl try this when you practise and let me know if Iam right if I am wrong I still feel that I have learn t little more which will add my knowledge of TT.
I thank you for discussing my topic .
:)






I am going to try and keep this on as positive a level as possible. I have nothing against anyone personally and I just want to say this for the record:

Mr RicharD,

Since you joined, I have found a great number of your posts on this forum top notch. I think you are obviously a person who has a passion for table tennis. I appreciate much of what you have to say on many subjects. There are two areas where I think what you say does not seem to fit. The first is that most of what you seem to have to say about pips players sounds to me like it comes from someone who does not understand how pips work and who does not like pips. The second area is that it sounds like you are trying to present yourself as a high level player. Who cares what level you are? Nobody, really. It doesn't come up unless you have brought up the subject as part of why you "know" so much. Nobody knows everything. We all, even the most knowledgeable on the subject of Table Tennis, have areas of expertise and areas where we do not really know the information. Level has nothing to do with it. I know many players whose level is low who have a great ability to see certain details and give good, helpful information. I also know plenty of players who have great strokes and really solid fundamentals but do not have great game skills or tournament skills and there USATT rating might be under 1000. I don't think there is anything wrong with that. I know people who play great in matches in practice and then when they play tournaments they get nervous and tight and do not play well. There is also nothing wrong with that. But if that is the case that is the level that they are at. The USATT rating is what it is. I also know a few players who, if you ask them their rating and they don't know you, they usually say 1900. Then if they know you and know you know what time of day it is, they might say, "I am 1550 but I beat a lot of 1900 and 2000 level players." I have one friend who says things like this and then I see him play pips players and he has no idea what to do against them. That is why he cannot get his rating up and that is why he really is 1550 and not 1900. You have to be able to beat over 90% of the players under 1875 to be 1900. That is how the rating system ends up working. When you get to that level, and you earn that rating through playing lots of players with strange and unique styles and you can adjust to their style and play them and take the match in the tournament, your level goes up. But there is nothing wrong with being a player who is passionate about Table Tennis who has a lot of knowledge and many skills but has trouble taking matches in tournaments against players who are rated in the 1300 range but have an unfamiliar style.

Someone somewhere in a post I saw recently said that players in the US tend to get to a 1600-1800 level and then don't progress or don't continue. He noted that 1600-1800 is not really a very high level. I would agree with both statements. When players start getting to be really solid fundamentally on all levels is somewhere between 2000 and 2300. I will keep trying to improve and who knows, perhaps one day I will be able to get there.



I work 7 days a week, some days I have a light schedule, but, having a wife and daughter, and trying to keep up with the bills, would make a trip to Pennsylvania for Table Tennis a little irresponsible on my part. But here is an invitation. If you want to come up to NYC, we can hang out, I can show you some of the spots to play in this city and we can play some matches too. You can PM me if you want to come up, and we can sort out details of contacting, getting together and having some fun, getting to know each other and playing the best sport in the world.



Playing matches outside of a USATT tournament will never get you to be 1800. It might help improve your skills so that you can eventually earn that rating through the system that is in place, but no amount of matches will get you an 1800 rating unless they are played in a sanctioned tournament. And through good solid work, a good player can get their rating up to that level if they have the skills. When you get there you earn that rating through your play in matches in the tournaments. The rest is talk. There is a value to that system.



I don't think it is a problem to have lost to any of the players you lost to, that is the reality of tournaments. However, a player who is actually legitimately somewhere between 1800-2000 would never lose to a 1300 level player because the player was unfamiliar to him. That is part of what earning the rating means. You would not lose to a player just because you did not know his style. You certainly would not lose to him 2x in one tournament. A true 1800 level player would adjust to dead balls in in 2 or 3 points at most. But lets say it took half of the first game. If you are rated 500-700 points higher than another player, after the first half of the first game it should be like playing with a small child. And truthfully, it should not even take that, because, if you haven't seen him, he hasn't seen you. He is in the same boat. Therefore the higher level player should have the clear advantage right from the first point.

Again, I do not think it matters what someone's rating is, and I do think it is okay to be someone who has trouble adjusting to new players and new serves and different tactics. But if you have trouble adjusting to dead balls, it says a lot. And if you need to be playing players whose style you know, to have a chance at winning, you have earned the rating you have earned. That is how it is.



An 1800 level player can lose to a player who is just under 1600. It should not happen very often but it can happen once in a while. But again, if his style was new to you, your style should have been new to him as well so you are both in the same boat and, a higher level player should have a clear advantage there. The only point I would make with this is that a player who really, actually belongs in the 1800 category should be able to take care of a player who is 1590 99% of the time. Again, there is nothing wrong with being at what ever level you are at. I know you have the mindset of wanting to improve your skills so I respect that. But a player who is rated 1066 who really should be rated 1800, his rating would go up drastically in every tournament he entered until it hit an accurate rating. A player who is rated 1066 who should be rated 1290 might raise their level much more slowly. There is no shame in that and there are any number of reasons why that progress might be slow. But no shame in any of them. A player who has trouble reading spin and dead balls from pips players might also have trouble reading serves. Once he knows those serves from that player, he might play great. But that would be a reason why one player who has 2000 level looping skills and 900 level return of serve skills and 1000 level pips playing skills might stay rated at 1200 for a long long time. Until the weaknesses are sured up, the level will not go up. But that just gives us things to work on. So as long as the idea is improving skills is part of your mindset, this is a positive issue . There are always things to improve on.



I would not bash anyone. But it would be fun to meet you, hang out, get to know you, and see how you play a variety of players.

By the way, don't you need to sustain a rating of above 1600 for a certain period of time to be eligible to get the USATT credentials for coaching in the US?



What the WHAT! :) And my guess is that, herein lies the problem. :cool:

Now I want to say something about pips. Because this, I think is worthwhile info. I have a friend who is a pips player who is rated 2200. He can play any way he wants, but he chooses shakehand pips. He can play smooth on both sides, he can play penhold, long pips, short pips anything, lefty too. :) When he plays with smooth on both sides his level is not very different than when he uses the long pips/smooth setup. The long pips setup is just what he likes best. When he hits with me, sometimes he does this thing, so that I can learn to read the spin better. I loop and he chops and this is what he does. While my shot is coming at him he will say one of three things: Dead, Light or Heavy. When he says dead, he is going to chop and the ball will come back dead, no spin. When he says light, he will chop and the ball will come back with light underspin. When he says heavy, the ball will come back with heavy underspin, and I mean heavy. He is doing it so I can learn to see the difference in the contact and in the trajectory of the ball from the spin. The stroke is the same. The contact is different and he can control and vary the spin to an amazing degree. There is real subtlety to this and there is real skill. You can do a lot of things with pips. And for playing against pips, the most important thing is to keep paying attention and learn to tell what spin is coming at you.

As far as there being no system for pips, I would not know. That is not my area of knowledge but it seems that there are basic strokes for chopping just like there are basic strokes for loops. There are also basic techniques for blocking. And as far as there being a set system for topspin game, my experience is that this is not so accurate. There are basic strokes and then there are differences. The Chinese loop is different from the European loop. Ma Long's loop is different than Wang Hao's or Zhang Jike's loop. Timo Boll's loop is different from Vladimir Samsonov's loop. And every coach in NY that I know of teaches slightly differently. :) Viva la differance.

YosuaYosan
10-31-2011, 09:53 AM
Or how a table tennis discussion can turn into a filosophical darwinistic discussion...:cool:

Not a big fan of Darwin like you sir Goossens but I think it will suit very nicely for my reply ;)
TT is one of the sport with tribal essence :)

UpSideDownCarl
10-31-2011, 01:07 PM
It was suggested that players should not use pips until they have reached a certain level. As a general statement I agree with the idea that it would valuable for many to learn the basic strokes first with an allround setup so that you could make a more informed decision as to the style of play you want to specialize in after you reach a certain level of proficiency. I would say this is the case for players wanting to be offensive as well. I know plenty of players who when they start, have already decided that they are going to be offensive players before they actually know the strokes. Then they get an Off+ blade and put Tenergy on it and cannot play and never learn how to use their equipment because it is too fast for them. :)

I would also say that, with pips player, you can have pips on one side and continue learning the basic strokes with the smooth side while simultaneously learning how to use the pips and how to twiddle and not get confused or thrown off by switching from smooth to pips. I do have a friend who, when I first met him he was about 1100 and he is a pips player. He was back then as well. He is naturally a defensive player. He likes playing and takes 2 hour lessons 2-4 days a week. Much of what he works on in his lessons is his offensive play, but the two teachers he works with (one is a 2650 level player and the other is a 2500 level player and they are both excellent coaches) know what they are doing. They work on a variety of things with him from looping, to switching from forehand to backhand, to footwork, to serve and receive skills, to switching from offense to defense.

In the time I have known him he has gone from being 1100 to 1850 and his offensive play has changed amazingly.

So, just like I would not want to put and hard fast rules on when a player is allowed to move from an allround setup to an offensive one, I would not want to put any hard fast rules on when a player is allowed to switch to a defensive setup. You can continue learning the strokes with a defensive setup. And I know plenty of offensive players who just swing away and have no idea why half their balls go into the net or off the table and do not progress and learn how to play either. To me that is not really any better than someone who does not know how to play, has pips and just puts the ball back, hoping to get it over the net and hoping the other player will miss. Either type of player is very easy to take care of for anyone with even a little game skills.

WiWa
10-31-2011, 02:30 PM
It might also be hard for a pips player to understand what he does with his pips when he hasn't learnt the basics with 2x smooth rubber. When learning with smooth rubber you get to understand what spin your opponent gives you and only then you can start to use pips effectively I think.
Besides that it is good that the names of Gionis the Greek (I won't get his surname right) and Tang Peng have been on this site lately, I don't understand how we forgot to mention them in this discussion haha.

UpSideDownCarl
10-31-2011, 06:11 PM
It might also be hard for a pips player to understand what he does with his pips when he hasn't learnt the basics with 2x smooth rubber. When learning with smooth rubber you get to understand what spin your opponent gives you and only then you can start to use pips effectively I think.
Besides that it is good that the names of Gionis the Greek (I won't get his surname right) and Tang Peng have been on this site lately, I don't understand how we forgot to mention them in this discussion haha.

I agree with that. It is worth being able to read spin and learn how to counter it or respond to it before using rubber that makes it so that the spin does not effect you to the same extent.

azlan
10-31-2011, 06:14 PM
It's like learning to play jazz, you must master the basic before trying jazz.

Mr. RicharD
10-31-2011, 07:48 PM
All I have to say is please go back and read the thread. A lot of you have misread or misstated some things here. I never said anything about not enjoying playing pips players. Some of my best experiences and friends are all pips players. I personally have never had a problem with pips. I just have had many club members who were just starting in their first year quit because they felt that pips were unfair and they would rather not play against someone who is less athletic than they are but still wins a game.

As to my rating, look up Drew Heo. He's my brother who has played at one tournament. I've played in a several both in usatt or just collegiate. He's rated 1300 or so. I'm rated 1066. Now I beat my brother every time. He's never beaten me, but I've coached him. So what you're saying is that because of his rating he's a higher level player than me. That's interesting. Because in the grand spectrum of things none of us is even over 1000 in the ITTF standards. Rating only shows skill level when tournaments are played consistently and there is enough diversity in the pool of players. For instance there are players in Seattle that think that reaching 2000 is for the best players in the country because frankly they've never been able to play anyone outside of Seattle or Portland and because of this their ratings are a lot lower because they only play 2500+ rated players at the clubs. And I know for a fact that many 1800 rated players in Portland can beat 2200 rated players from PA because we've taken trips up there and they've gotten their butts handed to them.

If you believe that the rating systems of the U.S. stands some kind of skill level I'd love for you to come to any of our lancaster clubs. We have several 1000 rated players who haven't played since the 90's that would frankly destroy you. Rating doesn't really mean anything in regards to skill, it's simply the organized system we have currently to provide income to those who would like to contribute to the sport of Table Tennis.

Here's a link to the Lancaster TTC youtube channel guys. You can see that about 80-90 percent of all matches are between pips vs anti, pips vs pips, or on rare occasion inverted vs pips. There to my knowledge are less than a couple of videos where it's actually inverted vs inverted. And this is just one of the 5 clubs that I go to where we have players that all play with pips.

http://www.youtube.com/user/lancasterttc

Please just read over the thread before speculating. It's rather funny how many of you just start posting random things about me when we've not even been discussing me. I'd rather you spend your efforts on growing the sport than thinking up some odd answer to some questions that aren't even involved with this discussion. Seriously just go and read the thread, the discussion was over ages ago.

WiWa
10-31-2011, 09:26 PM
All I have to say is please go back and read the thread. A lot of you have misread or misstated some things here. I never said anything about not enjoying playing pips players. Some of my best experiences and friends are all pips players. I personally have never had a problem with pips. I just have had many club members who were just starting in their first year quit because they felt that pips were unfair and they would rather not play against someone who is less athletic than they are but still wins a game.

It is in any case unreasonable to quit within a year because you lose to players who are less athletic. Regardless if they use pips or not.
And I agree with you that there is no reason to change the topic of the discussion to wether you are ranked correctly or not. :)

Mr. RicharD
10-31-2011, 10:02 PM
Hey I have no arguments there Wiwa, but let's be honest here, the majority of college players have egos and it's going to affect their judgment. I wish they'd stuck it out because they have great potential, but in a culture that doesn't respect the sport as the rest of the world it's no wonder it happened. Personally I think that in order to grow the sport in my area it's best to not have them play pips for a while until they understand the concepts of spin, technique, and tactics. I only break out the pips when I need to show them what the LP do and to help them work on returning varying spin while looping.

WiWa
10-31-2011, 10:05 PM
Hey I have no arguments there Wiwa, but let's be honest here, the majority of college players have egos and it's going to affect their judgment. I wish they'd stuck it out because they have great potential, but in a culture that doesn't respect the sport as the rest of the world it's no wonder it happened. Personally I think that in order to grow the sport in my area it's best to not have them play pips for a while until they understand the concepts of spin, technique, and tactics. I only break out the pips when I need to show them what the LP do and to help them work on returning varying spin while looping.

Yeah pips should only be used by people with basic understanding of table tennis as a whole and spin in particular. As for growing the sport I think you need hero's. People relate to them, more people join the sport, more heroes will come. It will help to make people consider table tennis as a serious sport, and then when they start they'll find out it is the most awesome thing in the world.

UpSideDownCarl
11-01-2011, 04:24 PM
Here's a link to the Lancaster TTC youtube channel guys. You can see that about 80-90 percent of all matches are between pips vs anti, pips vs pips, or on rare occasion inverted vs pips. There to my knowledge are less than a couple of videos where it's actually inverted vs inverted. And this is just one of the 5 clubs that I go to where we have players that all play with pips.

http://www.youtube.com/user/lancasterttc

I looked through the videos on the John Wetzler, playlist. He is using pips and he looks like a pretty decent player actually. But in his whole playlist, it looked like only 2 of the players he faced were using pips. The others were all smooth with an attacking style.

I was also looking for a playlist for you Mr RicharD. Is there one?


And I agree with you that there is no reason to change the topic of the discussion to wether you are ranked correctly or not. :)

When someone presents information to indicate that their level is high and that they beat players who are 1800-2200 level, but then their results in a tournament show that the highest level player they were able to beat in that particular tournament was 1100, and the results show that the player lost to low level players, it casts doubt on all the rest of what he is saying. Especially when, much of what he is saying sounds to be inaccurate. For example, when he said that it takes NO technique to play with pips and NO skill. Or when he said that pips did nothing except produce dead balls, both of those things made me question why the information I was being given was so off. Previously I had heard many posts from Mr RicharD that I thought were useful productive information and I had no reason to doubt his understanding of the sport. But hearing much of what he had to say about pips and how different it was from my experience, I started wondering. And then the question of why someone would want to present themselves as an authority and present themselves as a very high level player and a coach made me wonder. And when he said he played well against pips and then I saw the results of that recent tournament it made me question things more. Why would someone as good as Mr RicharD is presenting himself to be, lose in a tournament to a 1300 level player not just once but two times. Why would he lose to everyone he played except an 1100 level player. Of course he could have had a bad tournament and I have no idea what Mr RicharD plays like. But it makes it sound like what he is presenting is more of the complaining about pips players that caused him to join this thread.

And if you look at where the thread started, it was a comment by Shree on why Shree felt that it was beneficial to players of a certain level to switch to pips out rubbers for their backhand and Mr RicharD seems to be the one who changed the subject to his own which was creating a league of players with only smooth rubbers because he knows too many people who complain about pips and don't like them.

Here is a quote from that post where Mr RicharD changed the subject to his subject:


You aren't skilled at TT if you're using pips because they do most of the work.

I am not so sure information like that is all that productive.

Now again, I have never seen Mr RicharD play but if he is talking about how good he is and how many players he has beat with high ratings like 2200, and then I see tournament results where he loses against 1300, 1500, 1700 and 1800 level players and the only player he wins a match against is 1100 level, it makes me wonder, it makes me question what he is saying especially since so much of what he says about pips sounds so off. So the subject was not switched. Mr RicharD brought up how many high level players he has beaten. I just was surprised when I saw, in his most recent competition that he lost to so many low level players and am wondering why. And now I just looked and saw that in a previous competition he lost to: two players in the 1000 range, two more in the 1100 range, and two more in the 1200 range. Again, I would only think this is a problem from someone presenting themselves as an authority and claiming to be at a high level of play.

I don't think it matters what level he is. I think there are times when someone who does not have a high level for one reason or another can know a lot about the sport. But on the subject of pips, it seems like his opinions do not fit.

Wiwa's presentation of why players should not use pips until they reach a certain level makes sense to me. I just don't think you can or should make something like that mandatory. It sounds a little too dictatorial. But there are reasons to develop your skills with smooth before you specialize. So, as a general statement, I agree with that.

It also looks like, if you look at that video, Mr RicharD is talking about players who use pips and are at a fairly high level. That guy John Wetzler is over 2100. In other matches from other playlists I scanned through it often looks like the playlist is a of a player who is pips and quite often the opponent is smooth. Many of the players who look like they are not in as good shape are playing pips. Perhaps I need to scan through more. But I saw enough smooth players to think that it must be more than 10-20% smooth.

rhonis
11-02-2011, 03:20 PM
Yeah pips should only be used by people with basic understanding of table tennis as a whole and spin in particular. As for growing the sport I think you need hero's. People relate to them, more people join the sport, more heroes will come. It will help to make people consider table tennis as a serious sport, and then when they start they'll find out it is the most awesome thing in the world.

Im not sure if i agree with you saying only people who understand the basics can play with pips. I myself started to play with short pips after playing a long time with 2 sides inverted. First of all im a non-athletic player but i can play a decent ball without decent footwork. There are allot of players that want to play at a decent level but don't have the 'talent' to get at that level with inverted rubbers. Is it fair to think only about the inverted players. Playing with pips is not easy and takes a differend kind of technique (that doesn't say their technique is bad, just not common for inverted players). Now i changed my rubber this year to 'Offensive pimples' on the backhand side. With inverted rubber i had the problem, but i had the nature of going back and stand far from the table to use long powerfull strikes to get the overhand in the rally. With my new offensive short pimples i don't stand a chance going back. I have to stay close near the table to get maximum profit of the fast action the pimples give me. I think on the long-term my backhand without pimples will improve for the close range rally's. Finally i want to say pimple players are part of the full community of table tennis, if there should be tournament for non pimples/anti, there should be tournaments for players without the ultra fast inverted rubbers (you dont have to hit the ball to get maximum speed and maximum spin, getting worse by the day).

WiWa
11-02-2011, 03:49 PM
Im not sure if i agree with you saying only people who understand the basics can play with pips. I myself started to play with short pips after playing a long time with 2 sides inverted. First of all im a non-athletic player but i can play a decent ball without decent footwork. There are allot of players that want to play at a decent level but don't have the 'talent' to get at that level with inverted rubbers. Is it fair to think only about the inverted players. Playing with pips is not easy and takes a differend kind of technique (that doesn't say their technique is bad, just not common for inverted players). Now i changed my rubber this year to 'Offensive pimples' on the backhand side. With inverted rubber i had the problem, but i had the nature of going back and stand far from the table to use long powerfull strikes to get the overhand in the rally. With my new offensive short pimples i don't stand a chance going back. I have to stay close near the table to get maximum profit of the fast action the pimples give me. I think on the long-term my backhand without pimples will improve for the close range rally's. Finally i want to say pimple players are part of the full community of table tennis, if there should be tournament for non pimples/anti, there should be tournaments for players without the ultra fast inverted rubbers (you dont have to hit the ball to get maximum speed and maximum spin, getting worse by the day).

Well I meant that without basic understanding of spin you wouldn't really know what your pips do. So players who don't know those basics and start playing with pips will just hit random shots, and not play shots because they think it is the best way to return their opponents shot. Which imo is what a table tennis stroke is supposed to be :)

Mr. RicharD
11-02-2011, 04:01 PM
As I said before the players in the playlist use anti or long pips. The only short pips player there is Jim Martin. The Skolnics and Jamison are the only inverted players in the playlists. Everyone else uses long pips or anti on one side. They switch between LP and anti as well. David Kang uses anti on one side twiddling with Jpen, Don uses LP, Mark uses LP, Vito uses LP, John uses LP.

How many videos did you watch seriously carl. It sounds like you looked at 2 play lists of the dozen or so there are.

rhonis
11-02-2011, 04:19 PM
Well I meant that without basic understanding of spin you wouldn't really know what your pips do. So players who don't know those basics and start playing with pips will just hit random shots, and not play shots because they think it is the best way to return their opponents shot. Which imo is what a table tennis stroke is supposed to be :)
I agree with the point that you should first learn to play table tennis before you advance by changing rubbers (starters should also not start playing with super spinny or fast rubbers). I noticed that you can have some luck shots with pimples and because it's not a normal shot it's impossible to repeat. But if you rely on your lucky shot, you will never become good and control the game of table tennis (with or without pimples)

WiWa
11-02-2011, 04:21 PM
I agree with the point that you should first learn to play table tennis before you advance by changing rubbers (starters should also not start playing with super spinny or fast rubbers). I noticed that you can have some luck shots with pimples and because it's not a normal shot it's impossible to repeat. But if you rely on your lucky shot, you will never become good and control the game of table tennis (with or without pimples)

Yep, that's how I meant it :) Ur point about non-pips rubbers is true as well. I know players who started to speed glue very early (years ago :)) and they will never master short game or short serves. Good point indeed :D

UpSideDownCarl
11-03-2011, 05:36 AM
How many videos did you watch seriously carl. It sounds like you looked at 2 play lists of the dozen or so there are.

I looked at the videos in John Wetzler's playlist. It was the first one I looked through. What I saw looked like 12 videos with 8 or 9 players one player who seems to be playing with smooth and attacking is blocked from view so I cannot tell if he is in another video in this playlist, it might be Gabriel. Of the players I can see, 6 players seem to be using smooth on both sides and 3 seem to be using some form of deceptive rubber. Micalah, Gabriel, Christian Drumm, Jamison Bernard, Larry, and the kid in the video titled "Teams" look like they are playing an attacking style using smooth and looping from both sides. That is 6 players that look like they are playing with smooth on both sides. Now, I could be wrong. But it looks like 3, deceptive rubbers players and 6 smooth rubbers players. In the video series with John Wetzler that I looked at, I did not see any place where the names Jim, Don, Mark, or Vito. But, lets say there are 9 players and you have already said that three of them are smooth rubber players. My math skills come up with 33.3333%. Not 10%. But what I saw looked more like 66.6666%. Again, I might be missing something. It is hard to see what kind of rubbers they are using from a video. But the players I mentioned are looping from both sides and do not look interested in defensive play.

The other thing I notice from these videos, these are all decent players. None of them are low level. None of them are 1200 level players just putting the ball over the net with no skill. They know how to play. The ones using pips are not novices getting lucky because of what kind of rubber they have put on their paddles. John Wetzler seems to be a decent player. The player who looks the worst is David (the small pehholder with some kind of deceptive rubber. I think you are saying he is using anti and twiddling). And he does not look so bad either for an older gentleman who seems to be outmatched.

But you are right, I scanned through the first playlist. Found that there were decent players and more smooth rubber players than I expected to find. And then even more briefly scanned through a few other videos from a couple of different playlists without really watching too closely. So I will try and look at some more. And again, I could be wrong about who is using what, but all the players I listed are offensive players who are looping from both sides and do not seem to be using Long Pips or Anti-Spin.

Now, do they have any videos of you playing? I would love to see footage of you playing if they have any.

Lorre
11-03-2011, 01:06 PM
Now, do they have any videos of you playing? I would love to see footage of you playing if they have any.

I'm quite curious about that myself.:)

Mr. RicharD
11-03-2011, 07:30 PM
Oh I get what you're saying now Carl. No the players that are named in the play list are players at our club excluding Christian who was with us, but then moved away I believe. The same with Jamison. Gabriel and Micaiah are the Skolnick brothers and they are the only players in our club that play with inverted on both sides. John only plays the Skolnick brothers at our club. Everyone at the bottom aren't at our clubs those are tournament videos.

If you look at the names by playlist those are the Lancaster TTC members. We have 3 clubs here in Lancaster and 2-3 others in various locations around the county. Everyone except the Skolnicks uses LP or Anti or switches between the two.

As for me playing no they don't. I'll be uploading a few myself soon when I have the time to color correct. Mark does the videos for LTTC and he only brings the camera out when the big guys come out like Wetzler and Barney etc etc. He hasn't had a chance to video me as I come on days that the Big guys do not come because I have my own club on the days they do come.

I just want to point out that John and the Skolnicks are the highest rated players, but they aren't the best players. They have a bad attitude towards playing newer players and when David came out they thought he was just a 2000 rated player who wouldn't get much better, but he was actually an Olympic Nation Korean Team Member with Kim Taek Soo and some of the Coaches now in the 80's. He injured his shoulder so he can't play as hard as he used to. Now he uses anti to control the points from farther back, but after we told Dave one night that the higher guys were being disrespectful to him he played them all again and beat them 4-0 and only plays them when they're being respectful.

Just another thing I want to point out about rating and skill. Dave's skill level is most likely in the 2700+ range as he's played with Olympic Gold medalists and I'm not sure, but he may have been one of the top players had it not been for his injury. He's not even rated in the U.S., but with his wins in the league they've kept him around 2000. If he doesn't care about his shoulder though and only topspins the ball he's so much higher than what his rating shows.

It's funny that you should say that Carl. If you ask John or any of the LP players out there they'll tell you clearly how much the Pips give them an advantage. They only uses Pips for higher rated players because they know that they're lacking in an area that they would prefer not to improve in. They like the fact that a 2200-2500 rated player with inverted has trouble with their LP/Anti because they wouldn't be able to beat them otherwise.
They have told me how the Pips allows them to play at a higher level than they normally would because as they have gotten older they can't play mid distance like they used to.

YosuaYosan
11-08-2011, 09:12 AM
I'm quite curious about that myself.:)

So do I.

Would you mind to post a vid of you playing, Richard ?

azlan
11-23-2011, 06:37 AM
I found this article in The Tactical Table Tennis Website. It's about pips out game.

Long pips have always been controversial rubbers. This are some of the points made by players that complain on long pips, and my comments on each point:

They allow EASY control of spiny balls:
True, but note that EASY control is not BETTER control. Doing high quality shots is much more difficult than with inverted. Inverted players have a wide range of rubbers from where to choose, and they can select one among them that gives all the control they need too. Choosing a rubber that makes you control the ball is not cheating. It is a good idea.

They are hard to play against if you don't know HOW they work:
True, but this is YOUR fault only. Imagine how would you complain on inverted if it didn't exist, and you (a hardbat player, which never faced anything other than hardbat) faced a new player from another planet using heavy reglued Mark V rubbers with MAX sponge. If you were facing this player once per year, you would NEVER learn to play against inverted, since you need much more practice to get used to it. If you were AVOIDING this player all the time, the few (unavoidable) times you played against him, your performance would be even poor. That's what happen with long pips.

There's great variation on how long pips play, so LEARNING to play against them is not easy:
True. Long pips have a lot of parameters (such as pip's height, width, hardness, density ...) which can be adjusted to get specific (and very distinct) performances to suit different styles. Playing against JOOLA Badman (a hitting rubber) has NOTHING to do with playing against Double Happiness C7 (a chopping rubber). Also, some long pips are spiny while other are dead, some are deceptive while some are not, some can do spin reversal while some eat all spin, and all this types can be combined among them. But what gives more problems to players is that they return spin depending on the incoming ball's spin AND the stroke the long pips player plays. Note that inverted can somehow have great variation too, but when it comes close to some extreme behavior, they call it ANTISPIN.

Lots of players use long pips to COVER some weakness:
True. On the other side, lots of players serve & go for 3rd ball kill with ultra-fast equipment that they can't really control. In the first case, it's called CHEATING, and in the late case, it's called EVOLUTION OF THE GAME, but both groups choose equipment with the same purpose: to boost its performance. Both groups are likely to have problems to improve his game. Long pips suit very few players, same as very fast equipment. Those are not the wisest options, but neither can't be called cheating.

There are some truly DECEPTIVE rubbers:
True. There are some rubbers that have its parameters adjusted so tricky and extremely that can RANDOMIZE the spin they impart on the ball. This rubbers allow to push a no spin ball and get ANY spin (backspin, topspin, sidespin, even corkscrew). Every push comes different. It's a nightmare when they hit with this rubbers and you are at the other side. BUT this is not the purpose of this rubbers: a (highly) skilled played can play those deceptive long pips in a completely predictable manner. They choose this equipment since it has incredible capabilities (i. e.: instead of reversing spin, they can change spin's direction at his will). There are few legal and deceptive rubbers since the aspect ratio rule.

Long pips players take PROFIT of opponents' inability to play against long pips ON PURPOSE:
True. Lots of players use long pips as it's stated in (1), and take profit of (2), (3), (4) and (5) to boost their performance, specially at the lower levels, and SOME do this with the intention of take profit of opponent's weakness against long pips. This is cheating at the same level as doing a certain serve that you know your opponent is weak against (the common accepted 'way to go' by ALL the players). Some players complain that the difference is that serves have to be learned, and long pips just can be purchased. Well using long pips without leaving exposed his inherent weaknesses is very difficult to learn (and it is a must to play a SUCCESSFUL long pips game).

You have to THINK when facing long pips players:
Not true.You are not FORCED to think. You can play chess without thinking too. You can play your mindless looping style as usual and still win, but that will be unlikely if your opponent forces you to rally. Lots of players complain 'I don't like to think when I'm playing': That's fine, but they are playing with one important weapon less than a thinking player, and that could make the difference.

Inverted can be used to play successful chopping TOO:
True. But long pips are a MUCH better option since they provide better variation, much heavy backspin, and better handling and ball control to play defense. You can loop with 0.5 mm sponge too if you want (no, wait, that would be cheating because it's unusual).

Real ATHLETES don't play long pips / defense:
Not true. Some real athletes DO play long pips / defense. Look at the world ranking and you will see some (yes, there are few) real athletes playing long pips /defense.

Inverted is SUPERIOR to long pips:
True. That's just accurate. This has NOTHING to do with the fact that long pips are or are not cheating.

Returning the ball without taking CHANCES is very easy with long pips:
Not true. Returning the ball can be easy, but it is EXTREMELY difficult doing it in such a manner that your opponent can't attack (don't letting your opponent attack (or at least don't letting him to attack hard) is the ONLY way of play without taking chances). At top level, choppers play the riskiest possible game.

Long pips players do NOTHING but wait for opponent's error:
Not true. They have AT LEAST to return ALL the shots. Winning the point by opponent's error (whatever you think it means) is 100% legal, thus is no cheating.

Defensive styles at lower levels are much more EFFECTIVE:
True. At lower levels there are lots of unforced errors, so just keeping the ball in play, even poorly, and playing for safety will make you a tough opponent. This has nothing to do with cheating.

There are little or no chopper TOP players:
True. This is because they are at a HUGE disadvantage when facing loopers due to 40mm balls, glues, low aspect ratios, max sponges, carbon blades, etc... Still, there are a few players that choose this style and can be competitive. Imagine taking part in an F1 race with a 'street' sports car... and winning: You wouldn't be called cheater: you would be called HERO.


And here are the tactics to play against choppers (those using pips that is) :

1.Place your attacks at the center of the table. Attack at his elbow / pocket / body. Stay away from both his wings.

2.Move him close / far to table. Use drop shots when he is very far from table.

3.Do not put much spin on your shots if you can't handle they when come with reversed spin. If you send heavy topspin you'll receive heavy backspin.

4.Loop with a high arc with an upward motion. Your primary goal should be keep the ball in play, while looking for a chance to score.

5.If he's serving with long pips, his serves can't be spiny. Learn to kill them.

He probably can't attack against topspin well, but can attack backspin.

No spin can be hard to handle for some long pips. See if you can make him miss.

6.Try to cover the entire table with you forehand if you are fast enough. Get into ready position as soon as you know where the ball is going.

YosuaYosan
11-23-2011, 02:15 PM
Nice post sir Azlan.
I also want to remind that inverted is still a pips rubber. Pips in.

So don't go mad at a pips user for EVERY modern table tennis player is using pips in a different orientation.
Sir Shree had made a good title for the thread.

UpSideDownCarl
11-23-2011, 02:37 PM
I found this article in The Tactical Table Tennis Website. It's about pips out game.

Great post. This covers a lot of the important details. Thanks Azlan.

YosuaYosan
11-23-2011, 03:02 PM
Great post. This covers a lot of the important details. Thanks Azlan.

Haha Sir, it kinda revolves around the idea to rebuke the mindset that pips player = cheaters though.

azlan
11-23-2011, 04:04 PM
It is true that pips out rubber has many disadvantages, but the on the last paragragh... "Imagine taking part in an F1 race with a 'street' sports car... and winning: You wouldn't be called cheater: you would be called HERO".

I just love that!! How can that be cheating....

Mr. RicharD
11-24-2011, 12:54 AM
I'd like to know when it became about cheating? Long Pips have never been about cheating as long as the rubber itself is of legal use in TT. The legality had nothing to do with this argument as I remember it. What I was trying to point out and failed to communicate as well as I could have was that Pips take a very unique type of skill and in general require less skill as a broad base than inverted. As most LP rubbers are limited to what they can and cannot do Inverted rubbers are capable of doing the full wide range of shots. Thus by definition of skill require less skill because a LP user would plateau being unable to perform a type of shot that the inverted can. Also because LP players typically have a less standard of technique other than the few LP pro's out there it isn't as teachable which also makes it plateau.

Inverted rubbers also typically provide a more entertaining game excluding modern choppers who provide great entertainment. The LP users who prefer to chop block or in general slow down the game cause the sport to stagnate as far as the demograph that will enjoy watching it via internet or spectatorship.

azlan
11-24-2011, 04:33 AM
I'd like to know when it became about cheating? Long Pips have never been about cheating as long as the rubber itself is of legal use in TT. The legality had nothing to do with this argument as I remember it. What I was trying to point out and failed to communicate as well as I could have was that Pips take a very unique type of skill and in general require less skill as a broad base than inverted. As most LP rubbers are limited to what they can and cannot do Inverted rubbers are capable of doing the full wide range of shots. Thus by definition of skill require less skill because a LP user would plateau being unable to perform a type of shot that the inverted can. Also because LP players typically have a less standard of technique other than the few LP pro's out there it isn't as teachable which also makes it plateau.

Inverted rubbers also typically provide a more entertaining game excluding modern choppers who provide great entertainment. The LP users who prefer to chop block or in general slow down the game cause the sport to stagnate as far as the demograph that will enjoy watching it via internet or spectatorship.

Dude, what I posted wasn't about what you said or the post. That didn't even crossed my mind. :) rather than posting it on a new thread, I just squeezed the post here since we are discussing about pips out rubbers anyway. It's just something that I wanted to share with everyone here..that's all. After nearly 30 years playing competitive TT I still find it educational and fascinating.

YosuaYosan
11-24-2011, 03:41 PM
It is true that pips out rubber has many disadvantages, but the on the last paragragh... "Imagine taking part in an F1 race with a 'street' sports car... and winning: You wouldn't be called cheater: you would be called HERO".

I just love that!! How can that be cheating....

The time I read that article a few months ago, Sir, it also stabs my heart in one side and makes me keep going on the other haha :D
One side of me said that it is stupid to join an F1 race with a sport car, in the other side I always inclined to be a better man by doing things the hard way :)
Long pips suits me much too haha.

UpSideDownCarl
11-24-2011, 05:14 PM
Haha Sir, it kinda revolves around the idea to rebuke the mindset that pips player = cheaters though.

And it does explain ways in which you need to develop techniques to play with pips and how, at a certain point, it is really, actually like giving yourself a handicap to have to overcome.

UpSideDownCarl
11-24-2011, 05:17 PM
On About.com Greg Letts gives some good information about Long Pips and Anti-Spin. He give info on how to use them, how they work, how to play with them, how to play against them. Here is one of the pages:

http://tabletennis.about.com/od/longpimples/a/whatwhylongpips.htm

There are several and it is worth the read for anyone who is not sure how to handle deceptive rubbers.

azlan
11-24-2011, 05:22 PM
Cheers Carl...nice one.

YosuaYosan
11-24-2011, 07:49 PM
Sir Gregg's articles are quality, thanks for the link Sir Carl.
Check out his other articles too :)

UpSideDownCarl
11-24-2011, 10:50 PM
I love the amount of information Gregg Letts gives. Especially when I was first getting started I learned a lot about table tennis, equipment and equipment care from reading the articles on About.com.

YosuaYosan
11-25-2011, 06:01 AM
I love the amount of information Gregg Letts gives. Especially when I was first getting started I learned a lot about table tennis, equipment and equipment care from reading the articles on About.com.

The same here, Sir.
Guess how many table tennis player have Sir Gregg helped until now. Amazing :)

Bryce
11-25-2011, 06:29 AM
I hate playing against long/medium pips player. Very annoying in doubles...

azlan
11-25-2011, 09:17 AM
I hate playing against long/medium pips player. Very annoying in doubles...

hahaha it is frustrating when your partner is trying to win every shots, heavy topspin and you ended up paying for it. Or shot chop balls, and the pips player just lift and fast push it to the opposite side of the table

YosuaYosan
11-25-2011, 10:38 AM
I hate playing against long/medium pips player. Very annoying in doubles...

If the next ball you hit will go to the darksider, just fast push it so your partner could loop the next ball.
Ask your partner to do the same and voila :) Easy win.

Der_Echte
11-25-2011, 02:54 PM
Hah.. I should send this thread to OOAKForum to see what they would say :)
Anyways, I have my own thoughts about pips, everyone also has..

In training with a fellow inexperienced junior, I always twiddle to inverted or play with them with my inverted so I won't destroy their feel of the game. Nuff said.
For those people who don't understand, at any risk, I will tell them how to play against pips..

Haha, please do. It would be a riot. I am only a slightly prominant member of that "Pips" TT forum, although I am a 2x inverted attacking style player. Players should be allowed to play with their LPs or Sps, even if they are slippery.

UpSideDownCarl
11-25-2011, 03:22 PM
Dude, what I posted wasn't about what you said or the post. That didn't even crossed my mind. :) rather than posting it on a new thread, I just squeezed the post here since we are discussing about pips out rubbers anyway. It's just something that I wanted to share with everyone here..that's all. After nearly 30 years playing competitive TT I still find it educational and fascinating.

Short and sweet, but great post Azlan. It does seem like some people think all comments that are just comments to enhance the thread are directed at them personally. That is not always the case.

One thing that also seems to be left out by people who are talking about Long Pips requiring less technique might be that, a Long Pips player, at least if he/she wants to continue to improve, has to work on technique with the side of the bat that has smooth rubber too. And ideally that would mean, being able to develop and improve all shots with the Long Pips rubber on both the forehand and the backhand and the all shots with the smooth rubber on both the forehand and the backhand.

Kazuyuki Yokoyama, a local pro who is a chopper, was asked how he decided to become a Long Pips chopper and his answer was, when he was on the regional team he was on in Japan, he was the third best looper on the team and the coach told him they needed to have a chopper for the team to keep improving. The coach asked if he was willing to take it up and learn, and he has never looked back. :) He is darn good at all shots with either rubber from either side. :) You could think of it as learning two ways to play. So you need to learn all the technique a smooth player would learn and then all the technique that is available for the Long Pips.

Now this specific post is only talking about Long Pips. But I have not forgotten that there are different techniques for Short Pips and Anti-Spin and that this thread has discussed all three to some extent.

YosuaYosan
11-25-2011, 09:15 PM
Haha, please do. It would be a riot. I am only a slightly prominant member of that "Pips" TT forum, although I am a 2x inverted attacking style player. Players should be allowed to play with their LPs or Sps, even if they are slippery.

There was a riot there sir Der_Echte :)
I made the thread and sir Haggisv has locked it. I feel bad now X(

The title is : Lightsider's View of a Darksider's Equipment

Mr. RicharD
11-25-2011, 11:10 PM
See Azlan has it ridiculously hard. He had to go from rubber to rubber advancement, ball size change, best of 5 21 point system to best of 5 11 point system, hidden service to open service, best of 5 to best of 7. speed glue to non speed glue, booster to no voc booster, and now he'll have to go from celluloid to pvc. Not in any specific order, but seriously it's no wonder you find it so fascinating cuz the sport has changed drastically. And that's just the sport not to mention the wood to carbon to zylon equipment changes. That's just ridiculous. I don't think even a handful of the rest of us could compare to the changes you've endured.

YosuaYosan
11-26-2011, 12:11 AM
There was a riot there sir Der_Echte :)
I made the thread and sir Haggisv has locked it. I feel bad now X(

The title is : Lightsider's View of a Darksider's Equipment

Oh but dang it was my most successful thread there haha.
Only in a week + 1 day it got 140 replies and thousands of view XP

http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=17589

UpSideDownCarl
11-26-2011, 01:44 AM
Oh but dang it was my most successful thread there haha.
Only in a week + 1 day it got 140 replies and thousands of view XP

http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=17589

I did not get to read all of it yet, but it sounds like they were having a good discussion on the subject.

azlan
11-26-2011, 04:41 AM
See Azlan has it ridiculously hard. He had to go from rubber to rubber advancement, ball size change, best of 5 21 point system to best of 5 11 point system, hidden service to open service, best of 5 to best of 7. speed glue to non speed glue, booster to no voc booster, and now he'll have to go from celluloid to pvc. Not in any specific order, but seriously it's no wonder you find it so fascinating cuz the sport has changed drastically. And that's just the sport not to mention the wood to carbon to zylon equipment changes. That's just ridiculous. I don't think even a handful of the rest of us could compare to the changes you've endured.

That is true Richard, the game had change in so many aspects. And believe it will continue to evolve. The hardest for me was the 21-5games to 11-7games point system and the ball size. With the 21 points, I could serve 5 times and my coach Li Furong used to put hours on end for our service trainings..at least 800-1000 balls at at a time. Service was that important back then. And with the 40mm balls, initially we had a lot of problems putting big spins on the ball, even though I was using Super Sriver and Sriver back then. And we had to un-learn the hidden serve.

It was indeed educational..even for some of us who were national players. :D

UpSideDownCarl
12-13-2011, 03:54 PM
I have been thinking about something related to this thread for a while. Sorry to wake the issue back up, but I do think this has been a good discussion worth engaging in. So in the Hard Bat era there was this phenomenon that people realized that if you were a defensive player and mainly chopped the ball, you could chop and chop and wait for the other person to make a mistake and then win based on just getting the ball on the table consistently. The result of this is that there was a period in the sport where play was dominated by defensive players. This caused the creation of the expedite rule: http://tabletennis.about.com/od/thelawsoftabletennis/a/expedite.htm

Now, without deceptive rubber, in the hard bat era, where everyone was using pretty much the same equipment, defensive play was still hard to deal with. There is this one place I play at where where most of the players are sort of low level defensive players. Most of them are using recreational rackets that cost somewhere between $3.00 and $10.00. Some of them have something like what you would get from ZeroPong: http://zeropong.com/home.php?cat=249 which would be a step up from the Hard Bats and the Halex rackets the rest use. Most of these players are defensive players. Most of the offensive players who think they are good are unable to consistently return the underspin and the changes of spin that the defensive players are dealing. They do not know how to loop underspin yet or they do not do it well enough. Many people who start playing offensively there, end up switching to a defensive style of play because they learn that they cannot win against the "better" players by playing offensively and see that most of the "better" players there are simply cutting the ball over and over again. When a solid looper shows up and knows how to attack those underspin shots well enough, the "better" players at this place usually lose but there are not that many decent club type players that would want to play at this venue for many reasons, from lighting to lack of competition, to the fact that, if you play there, if you play someone who can get some of your shots back they are always going to be a defensive style player.

What is the point of what I am saying? It has been said that Pips Out and Anti Spin make it so that someone can win more games against higher level and better trained players without the player actually developing their game more. And what I am saying is that defensive play that is at your level is always hard to deal with because it is deceptive and you have to work hard for points and since the spin that is coming at you from a defensive player is probably changing consistently, you have to keep on your toes regardless of what kind of setup the opponent has. Unless you are at a higher level then the defensive player you are playing, defensive play presents a challenge.

However, at the highest levels of play, it is very very hard for a defensive player to get up to the level of the top offensive players. But Still Joo Se Hyuk and Chen Weixing still get matches ever so often from players in the top 10. I saw a match some time last year where Timo Boll lost to Chen Weixing. So defensive play is a real challenge to deal with but that does not say anything about the skill level of a defensive player. A defensive player who is ranked #38 in the world is a player who is ranked #38 in the world. A defensive player with a USATT rating of 1850 is a player with an 1850 rating they earned that with the techniques that they use.

And I for one, and always happy to play against defensive players because, to me it is fun, and it presents a challenge that I like that is different than just playing another offensive player. And because I can see that when I play a defensive player, my skills as an offensive player improve.

azlan
12-13-2011, 04:27 PM
Wow..expedite system huh. Thanx Carl, I didn't even know that existed. I thought they only have that in squash. Great find buddy!! There you go..just when you know everything that needs to know about TT ahahahaha

dici
12-13-2011, 08:19 PM
Wow..expedite system huh. Thanx Carl, I didn't even know that existed. I thought they only have that in squash. Great find buddy!! There you go..just when you know everything that needs to know about TT ahahahaha

I can't believe you didn't know it exists! Just the World Team TTC few months ago, the Japan vs Korea women match did go into the expedite system lol... but thats also when I know the existence. But if you imagine everyone still play defensive way like the old old days... 24hrs TT?

Lorre
12-13-2011, 08:24 PM
And I for one, and always happy to play against defensive players because, to me it is fun, and it presents a challenge that I like that is different than just playing another offensive player. And because I can see that when I play a defensive player, my skills as an offensive player improve.

And it is also a challenge to play attacking players for defenders like me: the high rhytm and the spin variation that come at you.
Your last sentence is absolutely true: I train regularly with a guy who came to our club last year. This guy has developed a killer attacking game within one year. He reads spin so well and attacks accordingly. Part of his development is his talent and the training he enjoyed in his other club, but part of his development I attribute to the training he had/has with me. I myself enjoy playing against defenders: it's hard work and your attacking game need to be first class to beat those guys.

UpSideDownCarl
12-14-2011, 11:44 AM
And it is also a challenge to play attacking players for defenders like me: the high rhytm and the spin variation that come at you.
Your last sentence is absolutely true: I train regularly with a guy who came to our club last year. This guy has developed a killer attacking game within one year. He reads spin so well and attacks accordingly. Part of his development is his talent and the training he enjoyed in his other club, but part of his development I attribute to the training he had/has with me. I myself enjoy playing against defenders: it's hard work and your attacking game need to be first class to beat those guys.

A perfect balance. :)

College_pong
12-14-2011, 04:14 PM
Amen my brother, amen!!!


pips are deceptive in nature and slow the ball down therefore they are a defensive type of rubber. It's how you use them that defines the type of shot. Any rubber can be used for an offensive shot and a defensive shot. While i totally believe that every player should have the right to use whatever rubber they choose, i believe we need to create an organization that only allows inverted rubbers to accommodate the players who have trouble with the pips. There are already plenty of players witn pips in the current organizations and there are even sandpaper and hardbat events all over the world. What we need now is an inverted only player to just make the complaining stop.

Pips are for players who prefer athleticism and/or deception over technique and skill. You aren't skilled at tt if you're using pips because they do most of the work. For the inverted rubbers technique must be mastered meaning a required skill level must be in place to win matches.

I've personally played players that are 400-500 rated points above my skill level and won against them when i've switched to any type of pips. It's a clear advantage and in my opinion only stagnates the growth of the sport. Deceptive players and pips players tend to really lower the level of play in an area because they rarely allow players to learn technique properly. Typically a player will learn from experience rather than coaching and therefore strike up some fairly ugly techniques. Their elbows are out of place wrist takes up more action rather than the arm and shoulder and footwork becomes terrible as they would rather reach than position for the strongest stroke.

I suggest that instead of complaining about the pips a player may use, help to start up leagues or events at tournaments where pips are not allowed. Equality for all meaning if you want to learn how to beat pips you can take the time to do so, but if you want to just play inverted players there is also the option for that as well. If we were able to gain more players in events, i'm sure organizations would strike up more events across the globe.

So here's to some more tt growth.

Mr. RicharD
12-14-2011, 08:25 PM
Oh not not this again. Let it be known that I never said anything about a higher level player playing a lower level pips player. What I had said was that pips in their nature can and do (actually I'm rephrasing this, but still explaining my intent rather than what was communicated prior) raise the level of a players skill. John Wetzler is a great example of this. He rarely uses an inverted backhand shot unless it's absolutely necessary to win the point (i.e. a stronger attacker playing him). He has a poor backhand in general with both pips and inverted, but the pips allow him the time to get his forehand into the game. As far as forehand and service go John is crazy good which reflects on his rating of around 2200-2400 depending on what tournaments he's playing in the U.S. He however has mentioned that without the pips he would not be able to keep up with the attackers at his rating level and above and therefore would not be able to keep up his rating at that level. He is an over 40 champion in PA and he's a great guy, but his pips help him play at higher levels where his age is restricting him in.

Pips in general are a great rubber and I think they're a fantastic creation, but to a player from the basement or to any audience member who isn't well informed on the sport, they will not understand what pips do and immediately are turned off from the sport because of that fact. While modern defenders such as Chen and Joo are exceptional at their strokes and athleticism the majority of players out there use pips in a chop block fashion that requires less skill than the former mentioned players.

These are the types of players that I was referring to that stagnate the growth of the sport. It's just not fun to watch two players standing close to the table chop blocking the ball back and forth with no movement. It's definitely not fun to watch someone with an intermediate loop get frustrated at another player chop blocking his loop to win the point and then give up the game because of it. It is however fantastic to watch players like Joo play an attacker like Timo and see him run in after a beautiful chop to loop kill the ball so that the Attacker can't return it.

Lorre
12-15-2011, 07:16 PM
Oh not not this again.

That's what I thought when I read your final post, Mr. RicharD.:p Except...


It is however fantastic to watch players like Joo play an attacker like Timo and see him run in after a beautiful chop to loop kill the ball so that the Attacker can't return it.

On which we agree completely.

You're a strange man, Mr. RicharD, because IMO the things you say, are sometimes contradictory. I'm not going to open that debate again, because it will lead to nothing and we've already did that, didn't we? I wished, however, that we could meet one day. I'm pretty sure all pip isues would be cleared then.

Mr. RicharD
12-16-2011, 12:35 AM
It was a bunch of miscommunication Lorre. I wasn't properly communicating in text and with so many different people with different languages barriers I didn't conduct myself properly which I take full responsibility to. I have said this before, but I personally don't have any problems with Pips. I like to use them to an extent and I enjoy playing against them because as Carl has said it helps to improve one's game. What the whole conversation was meant to be started upon was that Pips and deceptive rubbers already retain events solely to themselves such as the hardbat, sandpaper, and even LP events that I've been to or heard about from other players of other countries.

What I was tired of was the fact that inverted players that are frustrated from these rubbers choose to complain and bash upon them rather than solve the problem. And by solving the problem I recommended that an inverted only event be held in one's local tournaments. Because let's all be honest the most nastiest thing to witness at a tournament is that particular player who just complains about people and their deceptive rubbers neither giving credit nor acknowledgment at their particular skill set.

I've stated my opinion on pips players and their skill levels and also the common trait of raising one's level of play by using said rubbers. While not a generalized statement what I had meant was that simply said it does take a different type of skill to use pips, but one that I feel requires less when compared to inverted rubbers as by definition not by personal achievement. They are by definition unable to achieve certain shots such as top spin, no spin, under spin or side spin as inverted rubbers are able to do. The pips generally must sacrifice one aspect in order to maximize the other while inverted requires the skillset, but retains the ability to produce all spins.

So not to start anything else again, but yes I would have to say that we definitely need to play sometime. I'm still trying lose my college weight, but I am steadily getting back down to where I would like to be at having lost 20 pounds this year.

Happy Holidays to all and let's all grow our TT clubs this winter by inviting people more often. And to any that wish to learn of an incentive program that I'm developing to provide extra income for the club let me know via PM.

Lorre
12-16-2011, 01:00 PM
It was a bunch of miscommunication Lorre. I wasn't properly communicating in text and with so many different people with different languages barriers I didn't conduct myself properly which I take full responsibility to. I have said this before, but I personally don't have any problems with Pips. I like to use them to an extent and I enjoy playing against them because as Carl has said it helps to improve one's game. What the whole conversation was meant to be started upon was that Pips and deceptive rubbers already retain events solely to themselves such as the hardbat, sandpaper, and even LP events that I've been to or heard about from other players of other countries.

What I was tired of was the fact that inverted players that are frustrated from these rubbers choose to complain and bash upon them rather than solve the problem. And by solving the problem I recommended that an inverted only event be held in one's local tournaments. Because let's all be honest the most nastiest thing to witness at a tournament is that particular player who just complains about people and their deceptive rubbers neither giving credit nor acknowledgment at their particular skill set.

I've stated my opinion on pips players and their skill levels and also the common trait of raising one's level of play by using said rubbers. While not a generalized statement what I had meant was that simply said it does take a different type of skill to use pips, but one that I feel requires less when compared to inverted rubbers as by definition not by personal achievement. They are by definition unable to achieve certain shots such as top spin, no spin, under spin or side spin as inverted rubbers are able to do. The pips generally must sacrifice one aspect in order to maximize the other while inverted requires the skillset, but retains the ability to produce all spins.

So not to start anything else again, but yes I would have to say that we definitely need to play sometime. I'm still trying lose my college weight, but I am steadily getting back down to where I would like to be at having lost 20 pounds this year.

Happy Holidays to all and let's all grow our TT clubs this winter by inviting people more often. And to any that wish to learn of an incentive program that I'm developing to provide extra income for the club let me know via PM.

I'm glad it was all a miscommunication and I agree with what you've said in this post. BTW, I'm still trying to lose weight myself...:p

Can you PM me about that incentive program? I'm quite curious about that.

YosuaYosan
12-16-2011, 01:46 PM
Talking about losing weight, TT helped me lost around 75 pounds :D

UpSideDownCarl
12-16-2011, 03:34 PM
I have been thinking about something related to this thread for a while. Sorry to wake the issue back up, but I do think this has been a good discussion worth engaging in. So in the Hard Bat era there was this phenomenon that people realized that if you were a defensive player and mainly chopped the ball, you could chop and chop and wait for the other person to make a mistake and then win based on just getting the ball on the table consistently. The result of this is that there was a period in the sport where play was dominated by defensive players. This caused the creation of the expedite rule: http://tabletennis.about.com/od/thelawsoftabletennis/a/expedite.htm

Now, without deceptive rubber, in the hard bat era, where everyone was using pretty much the same equipment, defensive play was still hard to deal with. There is this one place I play at where where most of the players are sort of low level defensive players. Most of them are using recreational rackets that cost somewhere between $3.00 and $10.00. Some of them have something like what you would get from ZeroPong: http://zeropong.com/home.php?cat=249 which would be a step up from the Hard Bats and the Halex rackets the rest use. Most of these players are defensive players. Most of the offensive players who think they are good are unable to consistently return the underspin and the changes of spin that the defensive players are dealing. They do not know how to loop underspin yet or they do not do it well enough. Many people who start playing offensively there, end up switching to a defensive style of play because they learn that they cannot win against the "better" players by playing offensively and see that most of the "better" players there are simply cutting the ball over and over again. When a solid looper shows up and knows how to attack those underspin shots well enough, the "better" players at this place usually lose but there are not that many decent club type players that would want to play at this venue for many reasons, from lighting to lack of competition, to the fact that, if you play there, if you play someone who can get some of your shots back they are always going to be a defensive style player.

What is the point of what I am saying? It has been said that Pips Out and Anti Spin make it so that someone can win more games against higher level and better trained players without the player actually developing their game more. And what I am saying is that defensive play that is at your level is always hard to deal with because it is deceptive and you have to work hard for points and since the spin that is coming at you from a defensive player is probably changing consistently, you have to keep on your toes regardless of what kind of setup the opponent has. Unless you are at a higher level then the defensive player you are playing, defensive play presents a challenge.

However, at the highest levels of play, it is very very hard for a defensive player to get up to the level of the top offensive players. But Still Joo Se Hyuk and Chen Weixing still get matches ever so often from players in the top 10. I saw a match some time last year where Timo Boll lost to Chen Weixing. So defensive play is a real challenge to deal with but that does not say anything about the skill level of a defensive player. A defensive player who is ranked #38 in the world is a player who is ranked #38 in the world. A defensive player with a USATT rating of 1850 is a player with an 1850 rating they earned that with the techniques that they use.

And I for one, and always happy to play against defensive players because, to me it is fun, and it presents a challenge that I like that is different than just playing another offensive player. And because I can see that when I play a defensive player, my skills as an offensive player improve.

Since I reopened this thread with this post above, I would be interested in hearing comments on the topic that defensive play is effective regardless of what rubbers you use and a good defensive player who can slow the game down with smooth rubbers can mess up players who are offensive players without even having the need for deceptive rubbers. That, until you reach a certain level of play, defensive styles are quite effective at keeping offensive players from being able to attack effectively.

dici
12-16-2011, 04:59 PM
Since I reopened this thread with this post above, I would be interested in hearing comments on the topic that defensive play is effective regardless of what rubbers you use and a good defensive player who can slow the game down with smooth rubbers can mess up players who are offensive players without even having the need for deceptive rubbers. That, until you reach a certain level of play, defensive styles are quite effective at keeping offensive players from being able to attack effectively.

Hm well, it is true that you not really need pips for defensive style of play. I know that because one of the member who play with us always either do a block or a chop when I loop/drive to him. Although part of the reason is he is not young anymore (90% of the player are over 35-60s lol). But the rubber he used before were donic baracuda, then now is yasaka mark V. I think he only spend about few game days then totally adapt into the feel of switching to different rubber.

At least to me, defensive play requires a very good sense of touch. Because some other player when they try to chop an incoming ball, the ball would always fly around, since they just always think about "chop with hard and hard and very very hard". I think I always has a very good time when we just practice some drill with each other. I practice my consistency of my loop from underspin ball while he practice his chopping on an incoming topspin ball. But sometimes I feel bad to him to because when the ball is coming with lots of backspin and very low trajectory, I had to loop the ball back in the way that I'm not really able to control the speed of the ball and he just could not chase up with the speed of ball

rhonis
12-17-2011, 11:10 AM
i use my pips to create a more attacking play. With inverted rubber i tend to use my backhand only for chopping and blocking (some pushing). Now i have short pips. I use short pips to stay close to the table and use active blocks and i like to drive backspin balls. The best thing about the short pips is opening short servs or pushes. I try to semi spin these balls (when they are short). I dont know what to do with long balls on my backhand (i like to use my forehand instead of backhand in this situation, and i can be blocked out sometimes, this hurts :p).

Lorre
12-17-2011, 05:37 PM
Since I reopened this thread with this post above, I would be interested in hearing comments on the topic that defensive play is effective regardless of what rubbers you use and a good defensive player who can slow the game down with smooth rubbers can mess up players who are offensive players without even having the need for deceptive rubbers. That, until you reach a certain level of play, defensive styles are quite effective at keeping offensive players from being able to attack effectively.

You can play defensive with inverted, but the defensive play will be more of blocking/lobbing, based on topspin in contrary to pips play which is based on backspin. Effective chopping with inverted is really hard to do on a fast high spin ball and will never reach the backspin pips create against this kind of ball. It is also harder to slow down the game with inverted.

UpSideDownCarl
03-08-2013, 02:40 PM
Bump........

Shree
11-08-2013, 03:26 PM
Dear friends I woul like to know weather the pips out and anti rubbers will be banned or is it yet to be banned, if it is banned what will happen to the players using pips out will there be sufficient time to change over or not participate in competation any time in the coming years.

If theittfi ban the pips out & anti rubbers then what will be the status of the game . Will there be justification to ban the anti rubbers in internationsl and local tournment.

Lorre
11-08-2013, 06:09 PM
Dear friends I woul like to know weather the pips out and anti rubbers will be banned or is it yet to be banned, if it is banned what will happen to the players using pips out will there be sufficient time to change over or not participate in competation any time in the coming years.

If theittfi ban the pips out & anti rubbers then what will be the status of the game . Will there be justification to ban the anti rubbers in internationsl and local tournment.

They won't be banned. Where did you hear that rumour?

braithey
01-28-2014, 03:14 PM
Lorre really good posts, excellent points of view and I really respect the time and effort you have put in to responding.

However I would say this inverted progressive players who play expansive table tennis don't need pips/anti players we can get along just fine without them.

It is the pips/anti players who need the offensive players to validate their approach to the game.

Lorre
01-28-2014, 03:36 PM
Lorre really good posts, excellent points of view and I really respect the time and effort you have put in to responding.

However I would say this inverted progressive players who play expansive table tennis don't need pips/anti players we can get along just fine without them.

It is the pips/anti players who need the offensive players to validate their approach to the game.

But we don't need inverted players to validate our approach to the game. When playing pips/anti against each other you still have a match with long rallies. Besides, a modern defender has an attacking side (even two if you count twiddling) that can be used to play a defense-offense match. If any it makes the game longer and more exciting than two inverted players playing sets in which the point is already over after the third ball exchange.

braithey
01-28-2014, 04:03 PM
But we don't need inverted players to validate our approach to the game. When playing pips/anti against each other you still have a match with long rallies. Besides, a modern defender has an attacking side (even two if you count twiddling) that can be used to play a defense-offense match. If any it makes the game longer and more exciting than two inverted players playing sets in which the point is already over after the third ball exchange.

I accept your point about longer rallies but there is a reason that the best players in the world are offensive and not defensive and that is because offensive play is highest evolution of our sport at the moment. Even modern defenders, as a style, need something to defend against and whilst I accept this may be a philosophical point watching a defender defend against another defender is hardly the most mouth watering prospect.

I do agree that a great attacker versus a great defender is a good watch but so is attacker against attacker.

I play at veterans local, city and occasionally national level (although national is a bit above me yet) and the number of players who use pips/anti is incredible most just want to stop attackers from playing which is frustrating because players of my standard pay to travel and play and want to enjoy the sport. But when a tournament costs me about £60 plus travel and accommodation and when I turn up to play and encounter players whose main focus is to stop me playing I question whether it is worthwhile making the effort. I am sure you will say as other posters have said practise more but with work and family commitments thats not always easy to find the time or the pips/anti players to practise against.

Tinykin
01-29-2014, 01:37 AM
@brathey
I feel your pain.
Win or lose against pips or anti player, I rarely enjoy the match.

ttmonster
01-29-2014, 04:29 AM
Thats the point guys, try to start enjoying the match and you will start winning , this is my experience. Playing against pips out is more chess and less karate :)
@brathey
I feel your pain.
Win or lose against pips or anti player, I rarely enjoy the match.

Lorre
01-29-2014, 07:29 AM
@brathey
I feel your pain.
Win or lose against pips or anti player, I rarely enjoy the match.


I accept your point about longer rallies but there is a reason that the best players in the world are offensive and not defensive and that is because offensive play is highest evolution of our sport at the moment. Even modern defenders, as a style, need something to defend against and whilst I accept this may be a philosophical point watching a defender defend against another defender is hardly the most mouth watering prospect.

I do agree that a great attacker versus a great defender is a good watch but so is attacker against attacker.

I play at veterans local, city and occasionally national level (although national is a bit above me yet) and the number of players who use pips/anti is incredible most just want to stop attackers from playing which is frustrating because players of my standard pay to travel and play and want to enjoy the sport. But when a tournament costs me about £60 plus travel and accommodation and when I turn up to play and encounter players whose main focus is to stop me playing I question whether it is worthwhile making the effort. I am sure you will say as other posters have said practise more but with work and family commitments thats not always easy to find the time or the pips/anti players to practise against.

Well, your emotions and braithey's world view say it all... But it's not because you feel frustrated and want to rationalize that feeling with an evolutionary theory, everybody (including defensive players) feel and see it that way. If you stop playing because of "junk players", then it's you who stops playing. It's not a pips/anti player fault you stop playing, let alone he should feel guilty about you stopping playing. It's like ttmonster says: it's more of a chess game. If you don't like that aspect of the game, then (1) you'll be in the lower segments of the game forever and (2) please pick another sport because this one, in all its aspects, will certainly not satisfy you. If you still want to play this sport, then stop complaining and start training. If you don't have time to train, then again that's not the fault of the "junk player": that's you and your priority list.

UpSideDownCarl
01-29-2014, 08:44 AM
I have to be honest, I don't get why it is not fun for some people to play against pips. Each ball is different. You need to read the spin on each ball. The degree of variation is so different from when you are playing against someone who has smooth on both sides. It makes the whole game different. It makes you have to pay attention and use your brain a lot more. I have to say, win or lose, I like that.

Is that why people have a problem playing against pips: they want to go on AUTOPILOT and NOT USE THEIR BRAINS?

Come on. Getting good at playing against pips is a fun challenge. If you are missing shots that you thought should have been easy, if they go long, if they go into the net, it means you were not paying attention well enough and misread the spin. This is the central thing that serve and receive is about: reading the spin. All of a sudden, when facing a good pips player, you have to do that on every ball. More challenge, more fun.

braithey
01-29-2014, 11:39 AM
Well, your emotions and braithey's world view say it all... But it's not because you feel frustrated and want to rationalize that feeling with an evolutionary theory, everybody (including defensive players) feel and see it that way. If you stop playing because of "junk players", then it's you who stops playing. It's not a pips/anti player fault you stop playing, let alone he should feel guilty about you stopping playing. It's like ttmonster says: it's more of a chess game. If you don't like that aspect of the game, then (1) you'll be in the lower segments of the game forever and (2) please pick another sport because this one, in all its aspects, will certainly not satisfy you. If you still want to play this sport, then stop complaining and start training. If you don't have time to train, then again that's not the fault of the "junk player": that's you and your priority list.

Firstly where did the phrase junk players come from? I never referred to pips/anti players as junk.
Secondly I never said that pips/anti players should stop playing the way they play or that they should feel sorry for me
Thirdly I never said I would stop playing but I do question whether it is worth the expense and time to enter competitions against these type of players.
And finally yes I do have priorities in my life and believe it or not my wife, daughter and job come much higher up the list than table tennis. Remember also that the vast majority of local and regional leagues are made up from players, like me, who pay and play, so we can enjoy it. We will never earn a living from playing or win any international recognition for our efforts this being the case once the enjoyment of playing has been eroded then there will be some who walk away from the sport.

braithey
01-29-2014, 11:47 AM
I have to be honest, I don't get why it is not fun for some people to play against pips. Each ball is different. You need to read the spin on each ball. The degree of variation is so different from when you are playing against someone who has smooth on both sides. It makes the whole game different. It makes you have to pay attention and use your brain a lot more. I have to say, win or lose, I like that.

Is that why people have a problem playing against pips: they want to go on AUTOPILOT and NOT USE THEIR BRAINS?

Come on. Getting good at playing against pips is a fun challenge. If you are missing shots that you thought should have been easy, if they go long, if they go into the net, it means you were not paying attention well enough and misread the spin. This is the central thing that serve and receive is about: reading the spin. All of a sudden, when facing a good pips player, you have to do that on every ball. More challenge, more fun.

The auto pilot point is very valid in my opinion and that is what I think I am guilty of doing. However I would also say that in some cases the effect of pips is disproportionate to the effort put in by the player and I believe that is why some attacking players (myself included) feel frustrated and angry when we have lost.
At times there seems little reward for taking risks and trying to be positive in your approach and play

UpSideDownCarl
01-29-2014, 01:34 PM
Braithey, you have made a few points that are decently valid for your scenario. The first one is that if you go to a tournament and lose, it can be frustrating. If you are going to tournaments to win, this will often be the case, especially if you end up playing against players who are higher rated than you. But losing does not have too much to do with what is on the other player's racket or their choice of style. Now, if you lose to a smooth player and are not frustrated, and then you lose to a pips player and are frustrated, it really just means that you do need to learn how to play better against pips players.

So, it may not be worth it to you to travel and pay to play in tournaments.

And having priorities that come long before Table Tennis is definitely valid.

But, in addressing the issue of pips players and getting frustrated when playing them, it is probably that you don't have enough experience playing them. Is it worth figuring out how to get that experience? I am not sure. But, if you like the game and want to improve, then it definitely is.

The first thing that you should know is, even if you don't see and understand it, it takes skill and technique to use a pips or antitspin setup. When a pips player makes one ball dead, and the next ball heavy backspin, they have done something with their racket that you may have missed.

Here are some examples of things that could go wrong. You are trying to rip a ball that looks like mild backspin and it is actually dead and the ball flies long. You are trying to loop backspin and it turns out to be topspin and the ball jumps off your racket and flies way long. You are trying to attack topspin and it turns out to be dead or backspin and your ball goes into the net. You think the backspin is heavy and it turns out to be light and you hit the ball long. You think the backspin is light and it turns out to be heavy and you hit the ball into the net. You think it is backspin and it turns out to be topspin and you are just nowhere near the table as the ball flies up.

Any of those things have to with not paying attention to a few specific details. When playing someone who is using a defensive setup with pips or antispin, the first thing is, you have to know what rubber is on each side of his racket. That means you actually have to walk up and ask him if you can look at his racket and examine both rubbers. Look at the rubber, feel the rubber, look at the name of the rubber and the amount of sponge on each. Which was the black rubber, which the red. Then while playing you have to know what spin you put on the ball. Which color rubber the pips player used to contact the ball. You have to watch how the player contacts the ball: did he contact the ball directly or brush, did he contact hard or soft, how fast was the bat moving, how much sound did the racket make on contact, a lot or almost none. And you have to watch the flight of the ball to determine whether the ball has top, side, dead or backspin.

So if you are misreading the spin on the ball and missing your shots, then it is because you are actually doing the wrong thing for the ball that has come to you. If the pips player is able to keep the ball on the table and cause you to misread the spin and not get the ball on the table yourself, then they actually have more and better technique than you are realizing. Their technique is causing you to miss.


However I would also say that in some cases the effect of pips is disproportionate to the effort put in by the player and I believe that is why some attacking players (myself included) feel frustrated and angry when we have lost. At times there seems little reward for taking risks and trying to be positive in your approach and play

Trust me, this is a misperception. If you think that, you have not tried to switch back and forth from a smooth rubber to a pips rubber, and you do not understand the techniques you need to use to vary the spin with a pips rubber. I understand thinking this. But it is a misperception. As far as risks, if you are misreading the spin, you ARE taking risks because you are taking a swing without knowing what is actually on the ball.

A player who uses smooth rubbers and is good at playing against a pips player is not taking risks. He is using the right strokes and shot selection for the spins that are coming at him. That is why, as the spin varies, his shots still go on the table over and over again.

If you have trouble playing against pips players, and you have trouble finding pips players to train against, this is my recommendation. If you have a few friends who all play smooth and you train with them, get a defensive setup that has pips on one side and smooth on the other. It could be a very inexpensive setup and be a really useful one. You each take turns using the pips setup, trying to get used to it, and as you get better at using it, your training partners will get better at playing against it and vice versa. When you are all competent enough to help each other train against pips, you will start making some improvement against pips and start having fun playing against them. By learning to use them a little, you will start knowing what the guys you play against who have a pips setup are doing which will also help you improve at playing against them. You may also have an appreciation for how hard it actually is to twiddle and go from using pips to smooth. Think about if you were forced to play with a hardhat for 10 min. At first you would not be able to hit with it. Then you would start getting used to it. Then you would go back to your bat and you would not be able to get the ball on the table with your own racket for a few minutes. A pips player who twiddles has to be used to two very different setups at the same time.

It is really like serve and receive against a player who can disguise their serves well. At first you cannot tell the difference between his top, side, dead and backspin serves. Then you start seeing the contact and the bounce better. And then you stop being fooled as often. AND THAT PROCESS IS FUN. Going from not being able to do it to being decent at it, is fun. The same thing will happen if you figure out a way to practice against pips. The issue is not the rubber but your lack of experience against it. It is fair that this makes it frustrating. But, the answer would be to try and figure out a simple, cost effective way to gain more experience playing against pips.

As you practice against it, you will be able to see what is actually happening better and you will be fooled far less frequently. That process of reading things better and seeing things more accurately is really a valuable asset in the process of improving at the sport of table tennis.

braithey
01-29-2014, 03:07 PM
Braithey, you have made a few points that are decently valid for your scenario. The first one is that if you go to a tournament and lose, it can be frustrating. If you are going to tournaments to win, this will often be the case, especially if you end up playing against players who are higher rated than you. But losing does not have too much to do with what is on the other player's racket or their choice of style. Now, if you lose to a smooth player and are not frustrated, and then you lose to a pips player and are frustrated, it really just means that you do need to learn how to play better against pips players.

So, it may not be worth it to you to travel and pay to play in tournaments.

And having priorities that come long before Table Tennis is definitely valid.

But, in addressing the issue of pips players and getting frustrated when playing them, it is probably that you don't have enough experience playing them. Is it worth figuring out how to get that experience? I am not sure. But, if you like the game and want to improve, then it definitely is.

The first thing that you should know is, even if you don't see and understand it, it takes skill and technique to use a pips or antitspin setup. When a pips player makes one ball dead, and the next ball heavy backspin, they have done something with their racket that you may have missed.

Here are some examples of things that could go wrong. You are trying to rip a ball that looks like mild backspin and it is actually dead and the ball flies long. You are trying to loop backspin and it turns out to be topspin and the ball jumps off your racket and flies way long. You are trying to attack topspin and it turns out to be dead or backspin and your ball goes into the net. You think the backspin is heavy and it turns out to be light and you hit the ball long. You think the backspin is light and it turns out to be heavy and you hit the ball into the net. You think it is backspin and it turns out to be topspin and you are just nowhere near the table as the ball flies up.

Any of those things have to with not paying attention to a few specific details. When playing someone who is using a defensive setup with pips or antispin, the first thing is, you have to know what rubber is on each side of his racket. That means you actually have to walk up and ask him if you can look at his racket and examine both rubbers. Look at the rubber, feel the rubber, look at the name of the rubber and the amount of sponge on each. Which was the black rubber, which the red. Then while playing you have to know what spin you put on the ball. Which color rubber the pips player used to contact the ball. You have to watch how the player contacts the ball: did he contact the ball directly or brush, did he contact hard or soft, how fast was the bat moving, how much sound did the racket make on contact, a lot or almost none. And you have to watch the flight of the ball to determine whether the ball has top, side, dead or backspin.

So if you are misreading the spin on the ball and missing your shots, then it is because you are actually doing the wrong thing for the ball that has come to you. If the pips player is able to keep the ball on the table and cause you to misread the spin and not get the ball on the table yourself, then they actually have more and better technique than you are realizing. Their technique is causing you to miss.



Trust me, this is a misperception. If you think that, you have not tried to switch back and forth from a smooth rubber to a pips rubber, and you do not understand the techniques you need to use to vary the spin with a pips rubber. I understand thinking this. But it is a misperception. As far as risks, if you are misreading the spin, you ARE taking risks because you are taking a swing without knowing what is actually on the ball.

A player who uses smooth rubbers and is good at playing against a pips player is not taking risks. He is using the right strokes and shot selection for the spins that are coming at him. That is why, as the spin varies, his shots still go on the table over and over again.

If you have trouble playing against pips players, and you have trouble finding pips players to train against, this is my recommendation. If you have a few friends who all play smooth and you train with them, get a defensive setup that has pips on one side and smooth on the other. It could be a very inexpensive setup and be a really useful one. You each take turns using the pips setup, trying to get used to it, and as you get better at using it, your training partners will get better at playing against it and vice versa. When you are all competent enough to help each other train against pips, you will start making some improvement against pips and start having fun playing against them. By learning to use them a little, you will start knowing what the guys you play against who have a pips setup are doing which will also help you improve at playing against them. You may also have an appreciation for how hard it actually is to twiddle and go from using pips to smooth. Think about if you were forced to play with a hardhat for 10 min. At first you would not be able to hit with it. Then you would start getting used to it. Then you would go back to your bat and you would not be able to get the ball on the table with your own racket for a few minutes. A pips player who twiddles has to be used to two very different setups at the same time.

It is really like serve and receive against a player who can disguise their serves well. At first you cannot tell the difference between his top, side, dead and backspin serves. Then you start seeing the contact and the bounce better. And then you stop being fooled as often. AND THAT PROCESS IS FUN. Going from not being able to do it to being decent at it, is fun. The same thing will happen if you figure out a way to practice against pips. The issue is not the rubber but your lack of experience against it. It is fair that this makes it frustrating. But, the answer would be to try and figure out a simple, cost effective way to gain more experience playing against pips.

As you practice against it, you will be able to see what is actually happening better and you will be fooled far less frequently. That process of reading things better and seeing things more accurately is really a valuable asset in the process of improving at the sport of table tennis.

Firstly let me say thank you for the time you have taken and the advice you have offered it is really appreciated.

I totally agree with your assessment in terms of lack of experience and knowledge being decisive factors in losing to pips/anti players.

However I do not agree that it is the same as losing to an inverted attacking style player because against this type of player I can express myself in the way I like to play. Part of the frustration is that when playing pips/anti players (without the knowledge or experience) I am drawn into a game that I do not want to play and get very little enjoyment from being involved in.

For me as a reasonable player a big part of the satisfaction/reward of playing are those moments when you are able to perform good strokes and create good rallies and if you are beaten so be it, but at least I will have given a good account of myself.

Against the pips/anti players not only am I beaten but I have not enjoyed it and I have not expressed or given a good account of myself.

I understand your point regarding the skill level of the opponent and I fully accept that point, but given the amount of understanding required regarding equipment and technique in order to be effective against these type of players I do still believe (rightly or wrongly) that the effect they derive from the equipment is disproportionate.

I have as you suggested ordered myself a blade with long pips - no sponge and an inverted attacking rubber on the other side and will give this a go in order to further my table tennis education. And this is I think a perfect illustration of my point how many pips/anti players need to buy an attacking set up and learn different strokes in order to be effective at playing their own style?

Anyway as I said earlier many thanks for the advice I will try to take some/all of it into practise and see whether I can adapt my game.

UpSideDownCarl
01-29-2014, 04:21 PM
You are doing good things to enhance your skills in table tennis.


Two simple comments.


If you are able to take good shots and play in a way where you feel solid even if you lose when play a smooth rubber, two winged attacker, but are forced to play a different game against a pips player, it still simply boils down to education and experience against that medium. You don't have to learn how to play against pips. But it will enhance your knowledge and level and your experience against both pips and smooth players will be enhanced: you will have more fun against both, because, if you get better against pips players you WILL improve against loopers too. Whereas improving against loopers may not make you better against pips.


Second point: functionally, if a pips player has a smooth attacking rubber, they already do have TWO setups that they have to be used to.


But keep doing the work you are doing. When you have enough experience against pips so that you can play your game and take the strokes you want because you can read what is coming off their racket, you will be able to have fun playing against them for many rewarding reasons.

craniumburn
01-29-2014, 06:34 PM
Here in our place we have a shortage of really good pips out player (both short and long pips). in my club there is one long pips player and he is in demand as a playing partner. most of us, if not all, likes playing with him cuz we like his style and he can play attack and defense really well. Only problem is we'd get beaten. He can tweedle and do variations that would confuse us and still we would try our luck to practice our game against him(its like banging your head on the wall...it is painful and the wall always wins). he combines close table blocks and chop blocks and chops far away from the table for variation. He can play backhand topspin when he tweedles but prefers to play mostly defense in the backhand. His forehand loops and counter spindrives are powerful. But playing with him is an advantage because whenever a visiting team comes over and they have a pips out player our team can deal with them using the experience gained from playing with him. Playing against players with different styles has advantages, even when losing, you get to test your skill and learn from the experience.

braithey
01-31-2014, 08:40 AM
You are doing good things to enhance your skills in table tennis.


Two simple comments.


If you are able to take good shots and play in a way where you feel solid even if you lose when play a smooth rubber, two winged attacker, but are forced to play a different game against a pips player, it still simply boils down to education and experience against that medium. You don't have to learn how to play against pips. But it will enhance your knowledge and level and your experience against both pips and smooth players will be enhanced: you will have more fun against both, because, if you get better against pips players you WILL improve against loopers too. Whereas improving against loopers may not make you better against pips.


Second point: functionally, if a pips player has a smooth attacking rubber, they already do have TWO setups that they have to be used to.


But keep doing the work you are doing. When you have enough experience against pips so that you can play your game and take the strokes you want because you can read what is coming off their racket, you will be able to have fun playing against them for many rewarding reasons.

Got my long pimples and inverted rubber on an all round blade yesterday and went for a practise, very interesting results

First of all it is not easy to play with long pimples I don't yet know how much difference sponge makes I may try that later.

I started with them on my forehand and it took me 10 mins to realise I had to push all the way through the shot to get the ball over the net.

Secondly I played what I would describe as a forehand counter shot with the blade slightly open taking the ball at peak of bounce and suddenly the shot was going over the net by about 5-7 inches and landing about a foot from the end of the table. My playing partner was struggling to play consistently against this and top spinned off the table and into the net.

Thirdly when he returned effectively I found I could, dependent on how fast or spinney he played, either play the same shot or chop with heavy backspin.

My practise partner could not lift any of the chop returns even though the return travelled higher over the net they did not travel as deeply.

And lastly when he started to play touch from the chop returns on a number of occasions I was able to step in and play a backhand topspin with the inverted rubber. I also, to my surprise, found that I could loop with the long pips which blew my mind.

This has been a really good experience I must concur with Carl and the other posters who said playing with pips is a distinct yet different skill, from one practise session I can see it requires different skills and a different philosophy and approach toward the game.

I am not sure how much this will help me with my game against pips/anti players, too early to say as yet, but I feel that my understanding has already increased and that in my opinion is a good starting point.

Lorre
01-31-2014, 12:11 PM
Firstly where did the phrase junk players come from? I never referred to pips/anti players as junk.
Secondly I never said that pips/anti players should stop playing the way they play or that they should feel sorry for me
Thirdly I never said I would stop playing but I do question whether it is worth the expense and time to enter competitions against these type of players.
And finally yes I do have priorities in my life and believe it or not my wife, daughter and job come much higher up the list than table tennis. Remember also that the vast majority of local and regional leagues are made up from players, like me, who pay and play, so we can enjoy it. We will never earn a living from playing or win any international recognition for our efforts this being the case once the enjoyment of playing has been eroded then there will be some who walk away from the sport.

Firstly a name is just a name: nothing to seek something behind.
Secondly I ask myself the same question, but vice versa: why play against players who never appreciate the skill you put into it (and some even start to insult you - no kidding - because they don't have the necessary technique to at least play a game against you)? This happened yesterday and one of the two insulting player was a LP player himself!
If TT is not high in your priority list (at least not as high as your wife and child), then that's understandable, but it's still a choice you make. No one else has to carry the consequences of that, except yourself.

Carl is right and sums up a great deal of wisdom.

Some comments on your latter posts:

if you can't express yourself in a satisfying way against a pips player, then that's not his fault, but your lack of technique/strategy/spin reading against those players.

I myself can train against as many pips as I want (as a LP player myself), even against the feared DTecs (with and without sponge) and all I can say is that the effect of different pips starts to be same to me, probably because of the experience I have against them. That doesn't mean I win the game against the pips player: that's something different. It means I don't easily get fooled by them. In competition this translates in a flawless victory serie against pips players (and I encountered a lot of them, +-10 if not more) and this as a LP and defender myself.

If you're going to add sponge to your pips, things will become more complicated and things will get more technical.
If your practice partners have so much problems with the pips, then this only confirms Carl's analysis of the situation and my thoughts about it.

braithey
01-31-2014, 01:13 PM
Hi Lorre,
Having read your last post I am not really sure that I fully understand the points you are making.

On the junk players comment I just wanted to make it clear that I have not referred to pips/anti players in such a negative way.
Personally I am not hoping for appreciation from my opponent regarding my style or performance what I seek is the self satisfaction of performing to the best level my ability allows.

I understand totally that the amount of time I put into training and playing table tennis is my decision and I never asked anyone to carry the consequence of that fact. I am also aware that my satisfaction from playing is my issue which I have been honest and frank about in previous posts.

I think in summary that the issues we have discussed in this post are dependent upon our individual perspective and playing style, experience and knowledge and as an individual you and others who play pips/anti will have to accept that there is a lot of frustration from players who view pips/anti players in a negative light.

craniumburn
01-31-2014, 01:41 PM
human nature... people tend to dislike things they cant figure out. instead of putting the effort to understand something they cant figure out, they tend to shut it out and feel hostile towards it. If you lose to a pips out player it means you still lack some skills(against playing pips out players) and needs to practice more. It is your limitation and you need to overcome it to be a complete player...just my 2 cents

Lorre
01-31-2014, 01:48 PM
Hi Lorre,
Having read your last post I am not really sure that I fully understand the points you are making.

On the junk players comment I just wanted to make it clear that I have not referred to pips/anti players in such a negative way.
Personally I am not hoping for appreciation from my opponent regarding my style or performance what I seek is the self satisfaction of performing to the best level my ability allows.

I understand totally that the amount of time I put into training and playing table tennis is my decision and I never asked anyone to carry the consequence of that fact. I am also aware that my satisfaction from playing is my issue which I have been honest and frank about in previous posts.

I think in summary that the issues we have discussed in this post are dependent upon our individual perspective and playing style, experience and knowledge and as an individual you and others who play pips/anti will have to accept that there is a lot of frustration from players who view pips/anti players in a negative light.

Well, appreciation might not be the good word. It's more a matter of respect towards the opponent and his/her style, a style that is the extension of the person (physically/mentally) he/she is.

You are right about the frustration. But accepting it... No. The frustration is irrational and the attitude of those players is discriminatory.

braithey
01-31-2014, 02:28 PM
Well, appreciation might not be the good word. It's more a matter of respect towards the opponent and his/her style, a style that is the extension of the person (physically/mentally) he/she is.

You are right about the frustration. But accepting it... No. The frustration is irrational and the attitude of those players is discriminatory.

You say it is irrational to feel frustrated, and I hope you will excuse me for saying this, but this illustrates that you don't really understand the issue.

Frustration is an emotional response, rationality is cognitive (Thinking, logic etc)

You seem to be saying that players should not be frustrated by their inability to compete with or beat pips/anti players but this is simply never going to happen because as human beings we are driven by our emotions. Every decision you make and every action you take is based on emotions.

Would it be fair to say that you are frustrated by the response of certain players to you and your style of play?
Does it make you angry when they fail to show you the respect you think you deserve?

If we are to be totally honest with each other much of the problems around this issue are driven by our own ego's.

When I lose to pips/anti player I often feel angry because these type of players due to their style, skill, knowledge and experience have an ability to inflict a heavy defeat and make you look incompetent on the table. This anger can lead to players looking for excuses as to why they have lost in order to placate their own ego's

The same is true for pips/anti players when their opponent shows a lack of respect for their skill. The ego kicks in and the animosity begins.

Lorre
01-31-2014, 03:54 PM
You say it is irrational to feel frustrated, and I hope you will excuse me for saying this, but this illustrates that you don't really understand the issue.

Frustration is an emotional response, rationality is cognitive (Thinking, logic etc)

You seem to be saying that players should not be frustrated by their inability to compete with or beat pips/anti players but this is simply never going to happen because as human beings we are driven by our emotions. Every decision you make and every action you take is based on emotions.

Would it be fair to say that you are frustrated by the response of certain players to you and your style of play?
Does it make you angry when they fail to show you the respect you think you deserve?

If we are to be totally honest with each other much of the problems around this issue are driven by our own ego's.

When I lose to pips/anti player I often feel angry because these type of players due to their style, skill, knowledge and experience have an ability to inflict a heavy defeat and make you look incompetent on the table. This anger can lead to players looking for excuses as to why they have lost in order to placate their own ego's

The same is true for pips/anti players when their opponent shows a lack of respect for their skill. The ego kicks in and the animosity begins.

I understand the situation (as a human being I can also feel frustration), but I also understand that that emotion is often more than not displaced.

When I say an emotion is irrational, I mean the emotion is not appropiate for the situation. For example, fear can be irrational when you fear an innocent house spider, but rational when you see a lion running towards you. The same is true for frustration: you feel frustrated in a situation in which frustration has no place. You can feel disappointed, angry towards oneself,... But frustration has no function in this type of situation: it's even counterproductive. It might surprise you, but what we call an emotion isn't all feeling and nothing rationality, but a sublime interaction of the two. For example, you assess unconsciously the situation before feeling the arousal and unconsciously you need rationality to interpret the arousal you're feeling.

If you believe all human beings are driven by emotions, then that's true. But not only by their emotions... Mostly a subtle mix of emotion and ratio.

I initially felt frustrated and angry towards those players last night, but rationally I knew I won the game and they lost it and their reaction was because of the loss. My anger/frustration turned into pity and even pride.

If you believe people act only or even for the most part according to their emotions/ego, then that's a world view you have and that will influence your perception in a whole lot of situations and even justify your own emotions. I never could hold that world view because I saw too many discrepancies in the world. Although I believe a significant part of human action is directed by emotions, I also believe this is not all to a human being.