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thomas.pong
09-20-2017, 12:31 AM
I've weighed every steps of gluing my last several setups, by weighing the clean blade separately, the rubber sheets pre-glue and pre-cut, the excess rubber post-cut, and finally the whole glued blade with rubbers, and amongst other things have determined I use roughly 5g of glue each time.

Is that too much glue?

For info, I use the Butterfly Free Chack II, 1 layer of glue on each side of the blade, and 2 layers on each rubber sponge (I've had issues with the rubber lifting up around the edges if I don't).

Airoc
09-20-2017, 05:26 AM
Is that too much glue?
1 layer of glue on each side of the blade, and 2 layers on each rubber sponge

I don´t think there is a definitive answer. If your setup feels right (response, performance), is well-balanced and not too heavy then why worry. As with many of little things in table tennis, theory doesn´t help ;)

iamjason8
09-20-2017, 05:48 AM
I agree with the above re personal preference. In my experience, my glue adds 2-3g per side. It could have been less but I use a thin glue so I need to put enough so that it's easy to peel off the residue when I change rubbers.

thomas.pong
09-20-2017, 05:50 AM
I don´t think there is a definitive answer. If your setup feels right (response, performance), is well-balanced and not too heavy then why worry. As with many of little things in table tennis, theory doesn´t help ;)

Haha, well I'm trying to go down in weight a little and also making sure I'm not over-gluing and taking away from the response of the rubber. But if it doesn't seem like a ton of glue, then I must be ok!

Thinking of switching to Nittaku Fine Zip as I hear it's more sticky.

thomas.pong
09-20-2017, 05:53 AM
I agree with the above re personal preference. In my experience, my glue adds 2-3g per side. It could have been less but I use a thin glue so I need to put enough so that it's easy to peel off the residue when I change rubbers.

Thanks. Good to know I'm not going overboard. Which glue do you use? And do you give the rubber one or 2 coats?

UpSideDownCarl
09-20-2017, 07:06 AM
Given that some top players use 12-16 coats of glue on, I doubt you are anywhere near too much. The idea that less glue would take away from the response of the rubber is a bit odd. It is the opposite way around. If the bond between sponge and wood is full and the sponge has mobility while being solidly attached, it will respond to the ball better. That actually means, more glue helps the rubber respond better. Which is part of why some players use so many coats. Most amateur players use one or two coats on the sponge and one on the wood though. And that is a fine amount.

May I ask why you are trying to cut down on the weight of your setup? Is it an injury or something else?

anchorschmidt
09-20-2017, 09:32 AM
I also use at least two layers on the rubber. I think it's just a preference thing. The rubber will feel a bit softer if you put more coats on. I like doing that because my VH rubber is on the harder side.

iamjason8
09-20-2017, 11:14 AM
Thanks. Good to know I'm not going overboard. Which glue do you use? And do you give the rubber one or 2 coats?

I use Haifu Water Solubility Bond. It's really thin and dries very quickly so it necessitates at least 4 layers on the rubber to be removable. One coat of this adds less than 1 gram.

Baal
09-20-2017, 01:52 PM
Assuming glue has a density about the same as water, and some of it evaporates, 5 grams does not seem like a lot. I use the same glue exactly the way you describe it, and that is the best method for getting good even adhesion with that glue for most sponges.

thomas.pong
09-20-2017, 07:05 PM
Assuming glue has a density about the same as water, and some of it evaporates, 5 grams does not seem like a lot. I use the same glue exactly the way you describe it, and that is the best method for getting good even adhesion with that glue for most sponges.

It does seem to evaporate indeed. If I weigh the setup after a while, it goes down by a few grams.

thomas.pong
09-20-2017, 07:09 PM
Given that some top players use 12-16 coats of glue on, I doubt you are anywhere near too much. The idea that less glue would take away from the response of the rubber is a bit odd. It is the opposite way around. If the bond between sponge and wood is full and the sponge has mobility while being solidly attached, it will respond to the ball better. That actually means, more glue helps the rubber respond better. Which is part of why some players use so many coats. Most amateur players use one or two coats on the sponge and one on the wood though. And that is a fine amount.

May I ask why you are trying to cut down on the weight of your setup? Is it an injury or something else?

Woah, great to know. Didn't realize the pros used so many layers.

I'm trying to cut down on the weight of my setup as I have small wrists, it seems to help relieve stress on my wrists and make them more mobile and feel better in general.

One of my blades is 93.5g and seems way too heavy for me, 89g is ok, 85-87g feels best.

Thoughts?

anchorschmidt
09-20-2017, 08:32 PM
Could also be because of head heaviness. For me 93g with weight balanced at the centre is much lighter than 85g and head heavy.

thomas.pong
09-20-2017, 08:50 PM
Could also be because of head heaviness. For me 93g with weight balanced at the centre is much lighter than 85g and head heavy.

Good point. That's what I've experienced as well.

UpSideDownCarl
09-21-2017, 12:56 AM
Woah, great to know. Didn't realize the pros used so many layers.

I'm trying to cut down on the weight of my setup as I have small wrists, it seems to help relieve stress on my wrists and make them more mobile and feel better in general.

One of my blades is 93.5g and seems way too heavy for me, 89g is ok, 85-87g feels best.

Thoughts?

Are your wrists small? Or are they not strong? Strengthening wrists sometimes helps.

For someone who is younger or not strong, a lighter setup is sometimes useful. For someone who has an injury or repetitive stress issue like tennis elbow, sometimes a lighter racket makes sense.

If it is just your wrists but they are basically healthy, you might think of the strengthening thing. In the long run it may do more to protect them anyway.

In the end, everything is a tradeoff. Heavier racket, lighter racket, they each have advantages and disadvantages.

But if you are worrying about the weight of your setup to the point that you are trying to count grams of glue, then I suggest the therapy of going on a TT adventure with Der_Echte.

He just may hand you a beast mod setup that you try and love and then find out the blade itself weighs 120+ grams. [emoji2]


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

lee horton
09-21-2017, 03:18 AM
Werner schlarger carbon black tag in excellent condition original £250

thomas.pong
09-21-2017, 06:23 AM
Are your wrists small? Or are they not strong? Strengthening wrists sometimes helps.

For someone who is younger or not strong, a lighter setup is sometimes useful. For someone who has an injury or repetitive stress issue like tennis elbow, sometimes a lighter racket makes sense.

If it is just your wrists but they are basically healthy, you might think of the strengthening thing. In the long run it may do more to protect them anyway.

In the end, everything is a tradeoff. Heavier racket, lighter racket, they each have advantages and disadvantages.

But if you are worrying about the weight of your setup to the point that you are trying to count grams of glue, then I suggest the therapy of going on a TT adventure with Der_Echte.

He just may hand you a beast mod setup that you try and love and then find out the blade itself weighs 120+ grams. [emoji2]

My wrists and hands are definitely small and not strong, but otherwise healthy. That is why a seemingly lighter setup feels better and puts less stress on them. I should absolutely look into strengthening exercises, thank you for the suggestion.

Ah, I've seen some of Der_Echte's beast mode setups, they're impressive, especially the FZD Viscaria with the Stiga handle! :cool: (I like the feel of my Viscaria but really dislike it's fat FL handle especially at the bottom, wish they had an ST version still or smaller FL, think I can cut it down?).

anchorschmidt in his reply above reminded me of something that I had thought about before when he said: "Could also be because of head heaviness. For me 93g with weight balanced at the centre is much lighter then 85g and head heavy". I have to agree with him, what definitely weights down my wrist is when a setup is too head heavy.

So you saying that a 120+g blade could suit me even with heavy rubbers could be true!

Right now I'm thinking of buying a lighter Nittaku Acoustic Carbon, probably 87g, to replace the 93g I own, since I really enjoy the way it plays. And perhaps also purchasing a similar blade to the Viscaria, but with an ST handle, maybe the Freitas ALC or Timo Boll Spirit, and also requesting 87g.

More thoughts? ; )

anchorschmidt
09-21-2017, 07:28 AM
I think that the Boll ALC is supposed to have the weight balanced closer to the handle compared to the spirit.

UpSideDownCarl
09-21-2017, 07:41 AM
My wrists and hands are definitely small and not strong, but otherwise healthy. That is why a seemingly lighter setup feels better and puts less stress on them. I should absolutely look into strengthening exercises, thank you for the suggestion.

Ah, I've seen some of Der_Echte's beast mode setups, they're impressive, especially the FZD Viscaria with the Stiga handle! :cool: (I like the feel of my Viscaria but really dislike it's fat FL handle especially at the bottom, wish they had an ST version still or smaller FL, think I can cut it down?).

anchorschmidt in his reply above reminded me of something that I had thought about before when he said: "Could also be because of head heaviness. For me 93g with weight balanced at the centre is much lighter then 85g and head heavy". I have to agree with him, what definitely weights down my wrist is when a setup is too head heavy.

So you saying that a 120+g blade could suit me even with heavy rubbers could be true!

Right now I'm thinking of buying a lighter Nittaku Acoustic Carbon, probably 87g, to replace the 93g I own, since I really enjoy the way it plays. And perhaps also purchasing a similar blade to the Viscaria, but with an ST handle, maybe the Freitas ALC or Timo Boll Spirit, and also requesting 87g.

More thoughts? ; )

The "beast mode Viscaria": that was Giang who did that. He did call it mode: it is supposed to be mod, short for modification. But that Viscera did not have weight added to the handle because the handle was solid. So, technically, it was an attempt at a beast modification, but then ended up being something else. :)

Look for, rebuilding the beast.

If a Viscaria handle feels too big for you, can I ask 2 things:

1) how old are you?

2) how do you hold your racket?

If you are a under 11 years old, then I can see that handle being a little big for you. By 13 it should no longer be the case.

If you are an adult, my guess is that, how you are holding your racket is more an issue than what size the handle is. The three fingers that are wrapping around the handle should be lose and relaxed for adjustments in grip. The index finger and thumb on the blade face (lowest part of the rubber) should be what does the real holding of the racket.

If you are grabbing too hard with middle finger, ring finger and pinky, it would explain your problem with your wrists while playing. Those fingers tightening too much can cause you tightness in your forearm and wrist which would be counterproductive for TT.

UpSideDownCarl
09-21-2017, 07:44 AM
Here. Have a look at this and try it:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooOY8AqK60c

thomas.pong
09-21-2017, 08:30 PM
Here. Have a look at this and try it:

Thanks Carl! This is something that I've been trying to put focus on, and this video pin points it very well. I will try these exercises.

thomas.pong
09-21-2017, 08:43 PM
The "beast mode Viscaria": that was Giang who did that. He did call it mode: it is supposed to be mod, short for modification. But that Viscera did not have weight added to the handle because the handle was solid. So, technically, it was an attempt at a beast modification, but then ended up being something else. :)

Look for, rebuilding the beast.

If a Viscaria handle feels too big for you, can I ask 2 things:

1) how old are you?

2) how do you hold your racket?

If you are a under 11 years old, then I can see that handle being a little big for you. By 13 it should no longer be the case.

If you are an adult, my guess is that, how you are holding your racket is more an issue than what size the handle is. The three fingers that are wrapping around the handle should be lose and relaxed for adjustments in grip. The index finger and thumb on the blade face (lowest part of the rubber) should be what does the real holding of the racket.

If you are grabbing too hard with middle finger, ring finger and pinky, it would explain your problem with your wrists while playing. Those fingers tightening too much can cause you tightness in your forearm and wrist which would be counterproductive for TT.

The one mod I saw was of the semi-hollow Stiga handle filled (with resin?) then installed on the Viscaria.

To answer your questions, I'm in my 30's and this is how I typically hold my racket. I focus on holding it with my index and thumb just as you have mentioned and putting hardly any pressure with the remaining 3:

14260
14261

Sometimes I hold it like this:

14262

UpSideDownCarl
09-21-2017, 10:00 PM
The one mod I saw was of the semi-hollow Stiga handle filled (with resin?) then installed on the Viscaria.

To answer your questions, I'm in my 30's and this is how I typically hold my racket. I focus on holding it with my index and thumb just as you have mentioned and putting hardly any pressure with the remaining 3:

14260
14261

Sometimes I hold it like this:

14262

From the photos your hand and wrist seem a normal size. To me it looks like you are grabbing with the three fingers on the handle a bit too tight. But in a photo it is really hard to tell. It just looks like your knuckles are bent hard and turning white.

Your whole hand and forearm actually looks quite tense to me. Again, I could be wrong. But...

Here:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170921/1e6a371957e715a9ce33bf14a3108286.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170921/05ebff8ee5ae0be062669b2d982ca55d.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170921/2104a04516350b9b268cb23937b8da3d.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170921/c67f51e9aeb3820fb251888a34c42dae.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170921/7e2498fe1fbe467bf00c16ae0e0401fb.jpg

If you look at my wrist and hand, it looks a lot more relaxed than yours. If you look at the weird angles that show the finger tips of those three fingers on the handle, the only one that is even touching is the ring finger. And my middle finger often lifts away from the handle completely.

Again, photos are photos. But it looks like you are holding quite a lot of tension in your hand, wrist and forearm.



Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

thomas.pong
09-21-2017, 11:40 PM
From the photos your hand and wrist seem a normal size. To me it looks like you are grabbing with the three fingers on the handle a bit too tight. But in a photo it is really hard to tell. It just looks like your knuckles are bent hard and turning white.

Your whole hand and forearm actually looks quite tense to me. Again, I could be wrong. But...

If you look at my wrist and hand, it looks a lot more relaxed than yours. If you look at the weird angles that show the finger tips of those three fingers on the handle, the only one that is even touching is the ring finger. And my middle finger often lifts away from the handle completely.

Again, photos are photos. But it looks like you are holding quite a lot of tension in your hand, wrist and forearm.

I think I do tend to hold a bit too tight with my bottom 3 fingers and that my forearm can be tense. This is especially true with the Viscaria and its 100 x 25 x 34 mm FL handle, and less so with my MJ and its 100 x 22 x 27.5 mm ST handle.

Trust me, your hands and wrists are a lot larger than mine! :D

yogi_bear
09-22-2017, 01:18 AM
one is a backhand oriented grip the other one is forehand oriented (with viscaria)

UpSideDownCarl
09-22-2017, 01:25 AM
I think I do tend to hold a bit too tight with my bottom 3 fingers and that my forearm can be tense. This is especially true with the Viscaria and its 100 x 25 x 34 mm FL handle, and less so with my MJ and its 100 x 22 x 27.5 mm ST handle.

Trust me, your hands and wrists are a lot larger than mine! :D

Your fingers are wrapped around th handle and practically hitting the base of your thumb. My fingers are nowhere near my thumb.

My hand is wider, thicker than yours. But I am not sure bigger is the correct word.

Take a photo with your hand on your Viscaria's blade face. Have the base of your wrist lined up with the bottom edge of your rubber. Like this:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170922/ea96998215ad59d93d18df678b087f2e.jpg

This blade has the same sized head as a Viscaria. Let's see how long or short your fingers are.

BTW, measuring from the base of my wrist to the tip of my middle finger (longest finger) is 6.5 inches or 165mm.


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

Murre5
09-22-2017, 07:59 AM
Offtopic question but not worthy a thread, my rubber has started to come of in the edges on some sides. Can I just remove it and apply another glue layer and attach it again? Or will I have trouble somehow? For example if the rubber shrinks that fast (not sure how fast that process is).

UpSideDownCarl
09-22-2017, 08:47 AM
And the original beast mod thread:

https://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?9048-Re-Building-the-BEAST

There is some info in there about why a handle heavy racket may be better for your wrist. :)

UpSideDownCarl
09-22-2017, 12:15 PM
Offtopic question but not worthy a thread, my rubber has started to come of in the edges on some sides. Can I just remove it and apply another glue layer and attach it again? Or will I have trouble somehow? For example if the rubber shrinks that fast (not sure how fast that process is).

I sometimes put glue into the edges where the rubber is coming up, get the glue in there and put the racket under books. I used to spread it in with a business card. But the last times I did it, I just pulled the rubber that was coming up away a little and dripped the glue in.

Once the glue is in, put something heavy on the blade face like a few books.

But taking the rubber off and regluing makes sense, especially if you can’t get all the edges glued so there are no air pockets.


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thomas.pong
09-22-2017, 04:55 PM
Your fingers are wrapped around th handle and practically hitting the base of your thumb. My fingers are nowhere near my thumb.

My hand is wider, thicker than yours. But I am not sure bigger is the correct word.

Take a photo with your hand on your Viscaria's blade face. Have the base of your wrist lined up with the bottom edge of your rubber. Like this:

https://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/forum/cache.php?img=https%3A%2F%2Fuploads.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F20170922%2Fea96998215ad59d93d18df678b087f2e.jpg

This blade has the same sized head as a Viscaria. Let's see how long or short your fingers are.

BTW, measuring from the base of my wrist to the tip of my middle finger (longest finger) is 6.5 inches or 165mm.


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

Here's mine:

14269

7.6 inches / 193mm

Skinnier with long skinny fingers!

thomas.pong
09-22-2017, 05:01 PM
And the original beast mod thread:

https://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?9048-Re-Building-the-BEAST

There is some info in there about why a handle heavy racket may be better for your wrist. :)

Thank you again, great thread!

I also think it's a head heavy racket that's rough of my wrist. If the weight is more toward the handle or balanced, I don't feel it as much or notice it at all. It makes sense after all, it's the head that swings, the handle stays in your hand.

UpSideDownCarl
09-22-2017, 05:12 PM
Now it is time to start doing wrist strengthening exercises but also time to really relax your grip much more. I can actually pull my three fingers off the handle, almost like how one would serve and still hit my FH fine. Which is why the fingers come off the handle sometimes for me.

Der_Echte
09-23-2017, 12:51 AM
The beast mod is James Bond kind of technology... don't let Q see you doing it. :D