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Calafornia22
09-29-2017, 06:54 AM
Hi
I've been playing for about 2 years now so am a low intermediate player and have been using Mark V rubbers and a Stiga Offensive Classic Blade. I figured it was about time I changed to a new bat (mainly because my rubbers are wearing out- and im thinking of changing my blade too).

I needed some help deciding on rubbers and blades as I'm still quite new to this (and my original bat was purely off recommendation)

Playstyle:
Forehand- I tend to play allot of Sidespin loops on my forehand- or simply a close the table chopper when being pressured against, with the occasional smash.
Backhand- I like to play allot of Sidespin/Backspin chops, but also enjoy driving the ball.

Given my style- i would say i'm more of a spin-oriented player; though I notice that I lack in speed behind my loops a little too much-

I feel like i'd prefer a slightly faster rubber than my Mark V, and also hold some more spin- however do not mind entirely if the speed is kept the same as before; as Spin is still the priority -- given I tend to put sidespin into all of my forehand hits.
I wouldnt really know of any specifics, and though I havent tried, the Tenergy series seems a little out of reach in terms of my playing ability, but the Rakza 7/9 or Mantra H seem nice- Recommendations?

Blade:
In terms of blades, my current blade is flared, with decent speed, and at 85g.
I want to stick with an overall weight around the one I'm using now as it's so far been much better than my previous bats- but I tend to have issues gripping the blade. I suppose it'd be easier if I showed a picture of how I normally grip the blade while playing:
143181431914320Its quite different to the standard firm grip offensive players that I see around- but in gripping as such, my middle finger is shoved into an uncomfortable position while playing. For such, I've been introduced to the Donic Dotec series, and it really feels quite comfortable. Preferably, I would like to use one of those blades, unless recommended against such (Ive seen how they are quite stiff compared to my current blade). However essentially, I'm looking for a blade with relatively similar characteristics to my current one, but just a tad bit faster (If i were to go by numbers, Sites tend to put my blade at 7.5-8 speed, would like one around the 9 mark) -- again, would probably prefer one of the Donic Dotecs, and which would you recommend?

In terms of Budget; I personally dont want to go too high- but given it's not that common of a change, for a good final result, I'd be willing to pay higher.

Sorry for the long post.
Thankyou

langel
09-29-2017, 08:29 AM
As I'm a Xiom fan I'd suggest Xiom Ignito - hinoki, energy carbon, kiri. Speed 9, control 9, 84 gr. /have to ask provider for the exact weight/. Enough speed /for me near OFF-/, excellent feel. Pair it with Xiom Vega Asia DF, not the original Vega Asia, but the new Dynamic Friction version - it is a little bit softer, but with more spin and which is more important for your style - it chops very well over and close to the table and has similar bounce borh for chops and loops. Its around 45 gr. cut on the blade and the bat will be around 177 gr. total glued and taped. Very good allaround, safe passives and effective attack with a lot of spin.

langel
09-29-2017, 10:05 AM
I think you have to figure out what would be more important to you regarding the blade - middle finger comfort, or play and style developement. With Dotec you'll have the comfort, but may be just for now. With your progres you'll find out that different techniques require different grip and different finger position. The Dotec structure would hamper that. And with strictly left/right handed handle you can not change sides. For me and for lot of players the same position of the middle finger gives a lot of information about the exact blade angle and helps control. If the edges are too sharp, you may sand them.

Calafornia22
09-29-2017, 10:13 AM
I think you have to figure out what would be more important to you regarding the blade - middle finger comfort, or play and style developement. With Dotec you'll have the comfort, but may be just for now. With your progres you'll find out that different techniques require different grip and different finger position. The Dotec structure would hamper that. And with strictly left/right handed handle you can not change sides. For me and for lot of players the same position of the middle finger gives a lot of information about the exact blade angle and helps control. If the edges are too sharp, you may sand them.

Hmm understandable- and yes that position is what I keep so I can finetune my angles as to how I wish- thus not changing to a firm grip; and I have been told by many to sand out the endges given how uncomfortable they are- just confirming is that allowed? Never heard of such elsewhere so unsure. And if that is the case then it would probaly be best for me to stick to a flared/straight handle- though I'll have to look into that a bit further.

Calafornia22
09-29-2017, 10:19 AM
From what I can see- The Blade recommendation seems quite nice- though at a cost of 100AUD.
As for the Rubber- seems like a literal upgrade; but It's quite lacking in the tackyness department. Would that be an issue as a sidespin looper?

And would you recc'd that on both sides?

Calafornia22
09-29-2017, 10:28 AM
And would the Xiom Vega Pro not work out better?

langel
09-29-2017, 10:41 AM
Vega Asia DF has more spin and better control. Same speed, but Asia DF has a more consistant feeling about speed and rebound change depending on strength of the hit. And for me Asia DF plays better over the table.

Brs
09-29-2017, 12:17 PM
Don't change the rubbers and blade at the same time. You will not know which one contributed what to the different feel of the new bat. You can put new rubbers on your OC, see how you like them compared to MkV, and then move them to another blade if you decide to buy one. All you need is some water based glue.

ajtatosmano2
09-29-2017, 02:36 PM
Have you tried chinese rubbers? They are great in doing what you do: they are very spinny, so easy to do sidespin shots and they lack catapult, easy to chop with them. For chopping something soft and slow might be good, like the Butterfly Tackiness or Tackifire series, but these are slower than the Mark V.
During training try to avoid doing sidespin loops and practice them only as the last shot in drills. This is true for chops too.
Personally I don't like the Dotec handle because it dampens the feeling of the blade.

UpSideDownCarl
09-29-2017, 08:44 PM
Yeah. I would keep that blade. That actually is an excellent blade. There are any number of good rubbers. Too many to list.

Vega Pro comes to mind as something that would be a good rubber after Mark V.

But I really agree with what Brs said about not changing everything at the same time.

Even if you ultimately change the blade also, start by changing just the rubbers.

But I still do say that blade is really a lot better than you may realize.


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

Der_Echte
09-29-2017, 09:33 PM
As much as I absolutely hate the volcano earthquake shaking properties of your blade, I would say keep it and change the rubbers out to whatever mid-firm allround OFF rubber you can get.

Karis M+ such a rubber that will work, but there must be hundreds that will. Maybe you can find a deal on Aurus, maybe so with MX-P. (even if MX-P is more aggressive than allround OFF)

Look around and try stuff out if you can.

UpSideDownCarl
09-30-2017, 12:17 AM
Yeah. I was going to mention:

Karis M

It would probably be perfect for you. But here are a few other ideas. However, Vega Pro (the rubber I recommended in my first post) would perform very similarly to Karis M.

Other choices:

1) Tibhar Evolution FX-P
2) Nittaku FastArc C1
3) Tibhar Aurus or Aurus Sound

I still think you are better off with Karis M or Vega Pro. Could be Vega Europe also.

If you wanted some fun, you could see what happens if you boost the Mark V. [emoji2]


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

Calafornia22
09-30-2017, 06:05 AM
After reading up-
I will likely stick to my current blade- while keeping the previous suggestion in mind if I ever wish to change it in the future; as yes its a great blade- but not as comfortable as a Dotec (which i've clearly been recc'd against by people I know and responders here).

As for rubbers- im in a bundle now.
Personally from the suggestions, the Xiom Vega rubbers seem great, but should I go for Pro or Asia DF? The Pro has a harder sponge so I'm not sure of its implications.
But the MX-P and FX-P look great too; though the MX-P from reviews seems like too fast of a rubber?

From the ones I've singled down to, could you give recc'd for my Forehand/Backhand rubber, and sponge thickness accordingly- as per what I've said initially about my playstyle on either respective side?

As per costs; I can purchase at the following rates (AUD) (Will have to look elsewhere if I need a different sponge thickness)
- Vega Asia DF at 2.00mm or Max - $55
- Vega Pro at 2.00mm or Max - $45
- Tibhar Evolution MX-P at 2.1mm or 1.9mm - $55
- Tibhar Evolution FX-P at 2.1mm or 1.9mm - $55
- Spinlord Marder II at 1.8mm - $38
- Cant really find a distributor here in Aus for Karis M so...

Thanks.

Der_Echte
09-30-2017, 08:04 AM
The two places to look for TT gear in OZ would ne HaggisV's OOAK Equipment Shop and Rob's Affordable TT shop.

http://tabletennisshop.com.au/

http://www.affordablett.com.au/shop/

UpSideDownCarl
09-30-2017, 08:18 AM
After reading up-
I will likely stick to my current blade- while keeping the previous suggestion in mind if I ever wish to change it in the future; as yes its a great blade- but not as comfortable as a Dotec (which i've clearly been recc'd against by people I know and responders here).

As for rubbers- im in a bundle now.
Personally from the suggestions, the Xiom Vega rubbers seem great, but should I go for Pro or Asia DF? The Pro has a harder sponge so I'm not sure of its implications.
But the MX-P and FX-P look great too; though the MX-P from reviews seems like too fast of a rubber?

From the ones I've singled down to, could you give recc'd for my Forehand/Backhand rubber, and sponge thickness accordingly- as per what I've said initially about my playstyle on either respective side?

As per costs; I can purchase at the following rates (AUD) (Will have to look elsewhere if I need a different sponge thickness)
- Vega Asia DF at 2.00mm or Max - $55
- Vega Pro at 2.00mm or Max - $45
- Tibhar Evolution MX-P at 2.1mm or 1.9mm - $55
- Tibhar Evolution FX-P at 2.1mm or 1.9mm - $55
- Spinlord Marder II at 1.8mm - $38
- Cant really find a distributor here in Aus for Karis M so...

Thanks.

I think Vega Asia requires decent technique to unlock the potential of the rubber. I could be wrong. But I think that is not really what you want.

MX-P, it is pretty hard. If you had pretty high level technique, like semi-pro level, go for it. Otherwise you are better off with FX-P or Vega Pro. They are much more forgiving.

As a step upward from Classic rubbers like Mark V, Vega Pro or Vega Europe are really perfect rubbers for a first tensor rubber. FX-P is a little more of a rubber in certain ways. And I am sure it would be fine for you. FX-S may also be a good idea: a little less catapult. A little firmer. A little more spin. But Vega Pro is a really great choice for a first tensor.

I am not sure there is a reason for you to use different rubbers for FH and BH.

You have been using the same rubbers for both sides so far right? Did Mark V work markedly better for one side than the other? If you could use it equally well on both sides, you probably are better off with the same rubber on both sides.

Have you tried Spinlord Marder II? What does it play like?

ajtatosmano2
09-30-2017, 10:32 AM
After reading up-
I will likely stick to my current blade- while keeping the previous suggestion in mind if I ever wish to change it in the future; as yes its a great blade- but not as comfortable as a Dotec (which i've clearly been recc'd against by people I know and responders here).

As for rubbers- im in a bundle now.
Personally from the suggestions, the Xiom Vega rubbers seem great, but should I go for Pro or Asia DF? The Pro has a harder sponge so I'm not sure of its implications.
But the MX-P and FX-P look great too; though the MX-P from reviews seems like too fast of a rubber?

From the ones I've singled down to, could you give recc'd for my Forehand/Backhand rubber, and sponge thickness accordingly- as per what I've said initially about my playstyle on either respective side?

As per costs; I can purchase at the following rates (AUD) (Will have to look elsewhere if I need a different sponge thickness)
- Vega Asia DF at 2.00mm or Max - $55
- Vega Pro at 2.00mm or Max - $45
- Tibhar Evolution MX-P at 2.1mm or 1.9mm - $55
- Tibhar Evolution FX-P at 2.1mm or 1.9mm - $55
- Spinlord Marder II at 1.8mm - $38
- Cant really find a distributor here in Aus for Karis M so...

Thanks.

I think MX-P would be too fast for your needs.
I haven't tried the Asia DF, neither Marder II, I can't say anything about them.
Probably Karis would be the best for you, but if you can't get one, go for either FX-P/FX-S or Vega Pro. I played with Vega Pro for nearly 2 years, it's a great rubber. I played with FX-P only briefly, but it felt good too (the whole Evolution range is good). I would say if you use smaller, compact loops, choose FX-P, if you use bigger swing, choose Vega Pro. If you can't decide, choose FX-S. If you play, choo! :D

Calafornia22
09-30-2017, 10:42 AM
I think Vega Asia requires decent technique to unlock the potential of the rubber. I could be wrong. But I think that is not really what you want.

MX-P, it is pretty hard. If you had pretty high level technique, like semi-pro level, go for it. Otherwise you are better off with FX-P or Vega Pro. They are much more forgiving.

As a step upward from Classic rubbers like Mark V, Vega Pro or Vega Europe are really perfect rubbers for a first tensor rubber. FX-P is a little more of a rubber in certain ways. And I am sure it would be fine for you. FX-S may also be a good idea: a little less catapult. A little firmer. A little more spin. But Vega Pro is a really great choice for a first tensor.

I am not sure there is a reason for you to use different rubbers for FH and BH.

You have been using the same rubbers for both sides so far right? Did Mark V work markedly better for one side than the other? If you could use it equally well on both sides, you probably are better off with the same rubber on both sides.

Have you tried Spinlord Marder II? What does it play like?

I havent used Marder II, simply recommended it as its supposedly "Mark V with more Spin"
And yes ive kept Mark V on both sides as it was my first bat from scrach, as opposed to premade bats- and simply wanted to go for an allrounder bat.

With further talks, vega Pro or FX-P seem like the best choice- of which I personally want to choose the Vega Pro; but im told its sponge is much harder? as per google that means more speed and less spin. Given the rubber itself- would it really make that noticeable of a difference?

In terms of the sponge sizes available;
Vega Pro- 2mm or Max
FX-P - 1.9 or 2.1mm

which would be best? With the Mark 5 at 2.1mm I felt it lacked Speed and Spin a tad bit; so accordingly...

Calafornia22
09-30-2017, 10:53 AM
I think MX-P would be too fast for your needs.
I haven't tried the Asia DF, neither Marder II, I can't say anything about them.
Probably Karis would be the best for you, but if you can't get one, go for either FX-P/FX-S or Vega Pro. I played with Vega Pro for nearly 2 years, it's a great rubber. I played with FX-P only briefly, but it felt good too (the whole Evolution range is good). I would say if you use smaller, compact loops, choose FX-P, if you use bigger swing, choose Vega Pro. If you can't decide, choose FX-S. If you play, choo! :D

Could I ask for some background on as to why FX-P would be better for a compact looper and the latter with Vega Pro?

Calafornia22
09-30-2017, 11:10 AM
I am not sure there is a reason for you to use different rubbers for FH and BH.

You have been using the same rubbers for both sides so far right? Did Mark V work markedly better for one side than the other? If you could use it equally well on both sides, you probably are better off with the same rubber on both sides.


My forehand seemed like it had enough spin to manae for chops; but lacked speed to help push my sidespin loops; whereas my backhand purely lacked spin.

ajtatosmano2
09-30-2017, 12:37 PM
Could I ask for some background on as to why FX-P would be better for a compact looper and the latter with Vega Pro?
Vega Pro and FX-P are both not too fast, but offensive rubbers. FX-P has a softer sponge and more catapult than Vega Pro. If you use bigger swing, you don't need the catapult effect that much, because you probably have enough power. The catapult helps you when you use use smaller shots to give sufficient pace your balls.
This concept works pretty well in general, but it's not the 'Only Real Way to Choose Rubbers'.

UpSideDownCarl
09-30-2017, 01:52 PM
My forehand seemed like it had enough spin to manae for chops; but lacked speed to help push my sidespin loops; whereas my backhand purely lacked spin.

This is a matter of technique. But it also might indicate that that a slightly softer rubber of the same basic kind might be useful.

Vega Pro is not very hard. But if you want softer, you could get Vega Europe. It is a little softer. That may work for you.

Based on what you said about your BH you could also get Vega Pro on FH and Vega Europe on BH.

Regardless of which rubber you use, the thickness is a choice. I feel that, if you want to learn to improve your level of spin and increase your level of play, in the long run you are better off with the thicker options.

If you make more direct contact and are not interested in the higher level techniques that lead to exponentially more spin, then thinner is fine.


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

talbon
09-30-2017, 02:24 PM
You have a very good bat. Definitely keep the blade.

If I were you, I would buy more of the same for rubbers (Mark V -- maybe you've got the softer version atm, you could go with the normal). But I am not you and among your suggestions Vega Pro in under 2.0mm will be a good choice.

Enjoy TT with your new setup!

Can I make a small suggestion? Fix your grip so that your middle finger is completely off the paddle face, and instead lies gently with the other two on the handle. This is crucial, and in fact you've already noted that it's stuck in an uncomfortable place at the moment.

Calafornia22
09-30-2017, 02:26 PM
Hmm I see... to be honest I wouldnt be able to decide on which side I falter to- sort of both to be honest... Don't have a "concrete" playstyle yet given im still new(ish) so
Id probably not want that much of a catapult effect so as to not be able to control my hits, though I'm assuming im simply overthinking that...
Compared to the Mark V; the FX-P has a softer sponge, and the Vega Pro has a harder sponge- but the Vega Pro is slightly faster than the FX-P.

Starting to think I should go Vega Pro on my forehand and FX-S/P/EL-S/Vega EU on my backhand...

Calafornia22
09-30-2017, 02:36 PM
You have a very good bat. Definitely keep the blade.

If I were you, I would buy more of the same for rubbers (Mark V -- maybe you've got the softer version atm, you could go with the normal). But I am not you and among your suggestions Vega Pro in under 2.0mm will be a good choice.

Enjoy TT with your new setup!

Can I make a small suggestion? Fix your grip so that your middle finger is completely off the paddle face, and instead lies gently with the other two on the handle. This is crucial, and in fact you've already noted that it's stuck in an uncomfortable place at the moment.

I am using the Mark V, not the softer vers atm.
That vers itself seems slightly lacking, and I'd like to use something similar that simply enhances the speed and spin- thus looking at the Xiom vega series or Timbhar Evolution series.

As for my finger angle- i'd love to change it but it naturally fixiates into suchh a position, and I've gotten used to it. Its how I used to play back as a kid about 10 yrs ago, and naturally decided to pick up TT again in a similar manner recently. Its helped me add additional sidespin into my shots, and completely control my angles; but I suffer in regards to returning smashes in time as my hand position sets my bat in unusual angles- and also hinders the power I can put behind shots

It'd be quite a long run feat to change my grip...

UpSideDownCarl
09-30-2017, 05:09 PM
Starting to think I should go Vega Pro on my forehand and FX-S/P/EL-S/Vega EU on my backhand...

Whatever you do, do not do this. If you do not choose the same exact rubber on FH and BH you could choose Vega Pro FH and Vega Europe BH.

You are also over thinking this. Harder sponge DOES NOT MEAN FASTER. That is a mistake. A harder sponge from a different rubber is not necessarily faster and could be slower. Different rubbers use different sponges.

Vega and Evolution are very different rubbers. If you mix and match the way you are thinking, it will not be a good idea for how your two wings develop.

Just get the same rubber on both sides. Vega Pro is not hard. I am not sure where you got that. And It is NOT as fast or as spinny as FX-P. But it is a very good rubber for people your level because it is easy to control. The softness of FX-P makes it possible to control. But don't be fooled, this is 5 steps up from Mark V and Vega Pro is 1 step up. Go simple.

So many people at your level try and rationalize what would be good for FH and what would be good for BH and make foolish choices. There is no reason to get different rubbers for each side. Just choose one of those rubbers and get the same for both sides. Again, if you want softer, Vega Europe. Maybe you should just get that for both sides.

UpSideDownCarl
09-30-2017, 05:14 PM
Your grip itself, I am not so sure there is a problem with it, in and of itself. But if you are locked into that grip and your grip never adjusts, then there is a problem. Your grip should be relaxed enough for it to change a little at a time for each different shot. This should happen without you realizing it or thinking about it.

You should be able to open your wrist and racket for a fade loop. You should be able to do what you are already doing for a hook loop. If you are stuck with a hook loop all the time, it means you need to relax your grip.

Der_Echte
09-30-2017, 05:20 PM
Could I ask for some background on as to why FX-P would be better for a compact looper and the latter with Vega Pro?

I can say this about FX-P.

You can spin all day, keep it on the table, and even play successful soft topspin defense. That counts for a lot.

Der_Echte
09-30-2017, 05:23 PM
Carl, don't tell him he is over thinking it.

TT equipment makers and re-sellers absolutely LOVE IT when players try to dissect every bit of company provided and analyze it to the point of ging into a trance and coming out of it with 16 new TT purchases.

TTD forums only make it easier, it is feeding the troll of business at its best.

On a personal level, I believe you are absolutely correct. A sound analysis and simple solutions with easy to understand plays are usually effective.

Der_Echte
09-30-2017, 05:25 PM
Cali, you can learn a lot in a forum and avoid some common mistakes. That part of forming is great.
At some point, you have to personally try stuff out... and even then, it may takes years of experience and development before we know our arse from our toes about equipment.

Calafornia22
10-01-2017, 06:05 AM
Thanks so much for all this- and yes I'm simply trying to make a decision that I wouldn't regret.

Got some further clarification with some friends at my venue; and I will be going forward with the Vega Pro on both sides at 2.00mm rather than Max-- seems like the better option than to go 2 different rubbers especially given how I'm playing atm.

(In terms of my grip, it is completely flexible, thus allows for a variation of spins and angles for different shots; but the only grip I never come to is a firm grip that is the standard playstyle- its simply uncomfortable to be in-- I might at times while backhand rallying, but aside from that, never. Might start practicing playing with a firm grip aswell with the new bat as I feel it'd help-- but that'll take time to see how it goes)

Again, thanks for everything :)

UpSideDownCarl
10-01-2017, 06:10 AM
Grip should be relaxed.

Here, Brett Clarke:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooOY8AqK60c&t=23s

He is kind of eccentric, but he finds interesting ways of getting you to understand things that are not so easy to understand.

Calafornia22
10-01-2017, 06:13 AM
(Wrong choice of words)- by firm i meant simply having my middle finger rest alongside my pinky and ring finger on the handle- rather than in its odd position atm

UpSideDownCarl
10-01-2017, 06:19 AM
Well, as long as you understand that those fingers should not do much to hold the handle in the first place. Those three fingers should really be relaxed. The important part of how you hold the racket is that the index finger and thumb gently hold the blade face. If you do that right, the other fingers don't even need to be on the handle.