Fibreglass blades and materials

GinjaNinja · Nov 21, 2017

I'm trying to find out a little more about blades that use fibreglass as one of the piles. I am considering making a few blades with it. Can anyone help?

Specifically this kind of thing: playing characteristics; types of fibreglass used; weight and thickness; how easy or difficult is it to use? How does it contribute to the performance of the blade? how does it compare to carbon? is it worth bothering with?

Any and all information is useful.

RidTheKid · Nov 21, 2017

I own the Nittaku Barwell Fleet, great blade. Nice power and great control. It's an OFF blade with many gears. I actually wonder if any pros use it, because they should. There's absolutely no difficulties to use it but as with the majority of blades the handle comes off as a little bit too thin. It's a high quality blade made in Japan. A bit on the expensive side but you get what you pay for.

http://www.tabletennis11.com/other_eng/nittaku-barwell-fleet

OhWell · Nov 21, 2017

It's doesn't directly address fiberglass, but this classic blog post on TT blade design raises some important questions about the use of composites that might be helpful for you: https://thoughtsontabletennis.wordpress.com/2015/04/25/introduction-to-table-tennis-blade-design/

I'm not up to speed on the physics, but if I get this right (see article for more): it has to do with the directions in which vibrations propagate through different materials. To put it without taking sides on the issue (that article does): composite plies in blades can either work (1) hand in hand or (2) against with the most important directions along which vibrations propagate in the wood plies (I.e. parallel or perpendicular to the handle). For (1), we want composites that favor the propagation of vibrations along two axes max, where the second would be perpendicular to the other. For (2), we either want to position the composite layer to emphasize vibration along axes other than parallel/perpendicular to the handle (think carbonado x45), or that don't prioritize any axes along the layer's plane. (The article firmly favors (1) over (2). I'm not sure the issue is so straightforward, but it's worth keeping in mind..)

It might be worth investigating that aspect of the properties of fiberglass as well for your purposes...

OhWell · Nov 22, 2017

Since the thread is quiet I figured I might ask: have you considered playing with thin layers of very stiff woods in the spots where builders would put the composite layers?

It’s not a fiberglass related suggestion, but as far as alternatives to high tech composites goes, it seems like a very interesting direction to me, so I’d be curious to hear your thoughts.

OhWell · Nov 22, 2017

Doing quick reading about fiberglass v carbon in other industries, the major advantage of carbon/kevlar/etc seems to be weight (and thickness) for similar mechanical properties: those high tech materials have far superior weight to strength/stiffness ratios.

I take it you knew that though. What makes you want to try fiberglass?

OhWell · Nov 22, 2017

Last thing. Basalt fiber apparently has mechanical properties that are closer to (high performance) fiberglass than to carbon. (See Eg: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basalt_fiber)

So the basalt blades that have been recently released might be the closest current high end things to fiberglass blades. Perhaps they can give an idea about what to expect from high performance fiberglass materials?

GinjaNinja · Nov 22, 2017

OhWell said:
Since the thread is quiet I figured I might ask: have you considered playing with thin layers of very stiff woods in the spots where builders would put the composite layers?

It’s not a fiberglass related suggestion, but as far as alternatives to high tech composites goes, it seems like a very interesting direction to me, so I’d be curious to hear your thoughts.

Interesting idea. I know some blade makers do it. My concern would be getting the weight and thcknress right. Harder Woods are almost always heavy and most veneers are 0,6mm. Carbon is usually 0.1 to 0.25mm so will not add too much to the overall thickness. You could sand the veneer down but that’s easier said than done, sanding 0.2 or 0.3mm is difficult unless you have the right tools. One option would be to swap the piles and put harder veneers to the middle and not as the outer. Has anyone tried this? Most blades go from a soft core to progressively harder outer.

GinjaNinja · Nov 22, 2017

OhWell said:
Doing quick reading about fiberglass v carbon in other industries, the major advantage of carbon/kevlar/etc seems to be weight (and thickness) for similar mechanical properties: those high tech materials have far superior weight to strength/stiffness ratios.

I take it you knew that though. What makes you want to try fiberglass?

Probably curiosity more than anything else. Also fibreglass is much cheaper than hybrid carbon so good for experimenting. As it’s not as stiff or hard I wondered whether it might provide a ‘middle ground’ between the feel of all wood and advantages of carbon blades.

brodolio · Nov 22, 2017

I used to have the Donic Diablo Waldner, which has glassfiber. It's not the best looking blade in the world

As far as i remember it was a bit less stiffer than a common carbon blade, which means it has a little elasticity.
Less responsive so less speedy but still reasonably fast. Vibrations were good managed, not that much but still present (in a good way).

To me, carbon fibers are quite different. More bouncy and reactive. Very stiff and consistent. More speed-oriented.
Glassfiber are more control-oriented, they behaves almost like wood, wood under steroid. But my experience is quite limited..

So in the end, is it worth it to spend time on it? To me, no. A good piece of wood should do the job.
I cannot say the same about the carbon.

OhWell · Nov 22, 2017

Basalt fiber is pretty cheap too afaik.

But makes sense!

GinjaNinja · Nov 22, 2017

Will try it, thank you.

GinjaNinja · Nov 22, 2017

brodolio said:
I used to have the Donic Diablo Waldner, which has glassfiber. It's not the best looking blade in the world
View attachment 14747

As far as i remember it was a bit less stiffer than a common carbon blade, which means it has a little elasticity.
Less responsive so less speedy but still reasonably fast. Vibrations were good managed, not that much but still present (in a good way).

To me, carbon fibers are quite different. More bouncy and reactive. Very stiff and consistent. More speed-oriented.
Glassfiber are more control-oriented, they behaves almost like wood, wood under steroid. But my experience is quite limited..

So in the end, is it worth it to spend time on it? To me, no. A good piece of wood should do the job.
I cannot say the same about the carbon.

Good info thank you!
I suppose, in the end, the only way to find out is to give it a go and see what happens.

OhWell · Nov 22, 2017

For an example: I can't be sure because this is just based on pictures, but it looks to me like OSP's Martin might have something like a walnut (?) layer placed 3rd. (I'm guessing walnut because they use it as an outer ply on other blades.) Going: Outer - Support - walnut (?) - core. So it would be an example of something in that direction. At any rate whatever the dark layer of wood placed in 3rd, it is very thin for a wood layer. By the looks of it it's more in the 0.6-1mm ballpark than like a carbon layer though.

Speaking to your thickness concern: because even stiff woods are much less rigid than the composites we are talking about, I'm guessing this kind of construction is worth explored with .6-.8mm stiff wood layers to start. Going thinner as a starting point might dilute the effect too much.

I'm guessing that any species used as a very hard outer layer on TT blades might be worth exploring for this purpose: walnut/white ash < maple < wenge < rosewood etc...

About the overall thickness. Yeah, it would involve, e.g. using a thinner core than with composites - to keep a same target overall thickness. But depending on your goals this might not be a problem.

GinjaNinja · Nov 22, 2017

OhWell said:
For an example: I can't be sure because this is just based on pictures, but it looks to me like OSP's Martin might have something like a walnut (?) layer placed 3rd. (I'm guessing walnut because they use it as an outer ply on other blades.) Going: Outer - Support - walnut (?) - core. So it would be an example of something in that direction. At any rate whatever the dark layer of wood placed in 3rd, it is very thin for a wood layer. By the looks of it it's more in the 0.6-1mm ballpark than like a carbon layer though.

Speaking to your thickness concern: because even stiff woods are much less rigid than the composites we are talking about, I'm guessing this kind of construction is worth explored with .6-.8mm stiff wood layers to start. Going thinner as a starting point might dilute the effect too much.

I'm guessing that any species used as a very hard outer layer on TT blades might be worth exploring for this purpose: walnut/white ash < maple < wenge < rosewood etc...

About the overall thickness. Yeah, it would involve, e.g. using a thinner core than with composites - to keep a same target overall thickness. But depending on your goals this might not be a problem.

It could be mahogany too. Either way mahogany and walnut aren't that hard or heavy. Genuine mahogany sits between limba and koto with American walnut slightly harder than koto. The sheets of mahogany and walnut I use are pretty much the same weight as ayous or limba but they do feel harder. Rosewood is significantly heavier and harder though, wenge to some extent too. You are right though, it would be worth exploring the woods you mention.

I'd be keen to experiment when I've finished the composite journey I'm currently on.

OhWell · Nov 22, 2017

A less common very hard wood that stands out from musical instrument making is bubinga. Similar hardness to most rosewood varieties, but often stiffer and with higher bending + compression strength (and cheaper

Keep us posted on composites!

langel · Nov 22, 2017

The purpose of composite layers is not only in concerne of weight and strength. In fact their main purpose is to distribute the impact energy with minimum loss. That energy distribution in all directions maximizes the sweet spot as well. And as a result the energy consuming vibrations are deminished. Different composite materials in combination with different woold plys do it in different way.
About the idea of using a hard and stiff wood ply instead of a composite - it may work somewhat, but it may not as well. It all depends on the designe. Usually the ply next to the core is responsible for the transmission of the core properties to the layers above and for fitting these properties with the properties of the above layers and it is of great importance, although most people pay much more attention to the outer layer and the composite material.

OhWell · Nov 22, 2017

langel said:
The purpose of composite layers is not only in concerne of weight and strength. In fact their main purpose is to distribute the impact energy with minimum loss. That energy distribution in all directions maximizes the sweet spot as well. And as a result the energy consuming vibrations are deminished. Different composite materials in combination with different woold plys do it in different way.
About the idea of using a hard and stiff wood ply instead of a composite - it may work somewhat, but it may not as well. It all depends on the designe. Usually the ply next to the core is responsible for the transmission of the core properties to the layers above and for fitting these properties with the properties of the above layers and it is of great importance, although most people pay much more attention to the outer layer and the composite material.

Yes! The reason for my lingering on elasticity, strength and hardness is simply because I don’t have a good understanding of the other factors that play a key role in making a material excell at energy distribution and widening the sweet spot.

To be sure, as you say, whatever the material, the fit between the properties of the different plies will need to be optimized. But setting that aside for the moment, I’d love to hear your thoughts on what properties make a given material worth considering for better energy distribution and widening the sweet spot.

ajtatosmano2 · Nov 22, 2017

I am using a textreme blade. Textreme is fibreglass covered with aluminium. It's has good power and flexibility, yet it has a woody feel.
I've read in hungarian forum, that it's easier to make good blades with fibreglass than carbon at home. According to them it isn't that dependant on the construction (=there is more margin for error during design). I can't remember to the why and I couldn't find that thread.

langel · Nov 22, 2017

OhWell said:
Yes! The reason for my lingering on elasticity, strength and hardness is simply because I don’t have a good understanding of the other factors that play a key role in making a material excell at energy distribution and widening the sweet spot.

To be sure, as you say, whatever the material, the fit between the properties of the different plies will need to be optimized. But setting that aside for the moment, I’d love to hear your thoughts on what properties make a given material worth considering for better energy distribution and widening the sweet spot.

I don't think that a general formula would ever be possible.
Of course there are a lot of "template" formulas used and overused by most brands with different features, effect and peculiaruties.
My own opinion is that without a good basic knowledge about all materials involved in a blade design plus good basic knowledge in physics, it would be very hard to design something with something in mind.
And a good portion of through-the-years experince would be a surplus.

doraemon · Nov 22, 2017

persson powerfibre is a good glass blade. it has been discontinued but i think that its great.

it has a kind of hard feeling when in an open game. but hard, i mean when the ball hits your blade you can almost feel a snap or a short and sharp burst of sensation, compared to say an appelgren allplay or andro supercell which is dull and the sensation of impact feels prolonged. Right now I like it but this kind of feeling for me took some getting used to. I think that this is to make up for the dulling effect of carbon and create some sort of artifical extra feeling if that makes sense.

The blade is fast due to the carbon and glass Comparing persson powerfibre to others, I think it is slightly faster than zhang jike alc (although tested w/ different rubbers, different handle shape, and very briefly, so take with a pinch of salt), and has a better feeling. The closest fast blade I have tried to an allwood, very nice feeling and great feedback to understand the power or quality of the ball played

EDIT: I checked and realised you were asking about MAKING fibreglass blades. The composition of the powerfibre is limba-fibre-ayous-ayous-ayous-fibre-limba according to http://stumpof.blogspot.co.nz/p/stumps-blade-composition-list-j.html but inspecting the blade closely I feel like the blade looks like an innercarbon composition to me. I also think that the persson version is a faster variant of the Waldner diablo that was mentioned previously, as Domic usually releases similar blades with Walder being closer to allround offensive and persson versions being slightly faster

Fibreglass blades and materials

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