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UpSideDownCarl
12-05-2017, 01:54 PM
I thought it was suggested that commentary on this subject should be brought to a different thread? When it is moved, I have a final thought on this subject.

There is no reason to believe that the benevolent and caring Japanese government will do any better to watch over forests than they they did watching over their nuclear plants that pretty much created a toxic ocean environment for the whole world to enjoy.

There is zero reason to have beautiful 250 year trees to be cut up into blades. The thing is sometimes someone has to raise voice to counter those who, for their own personal profit, are helping to destroy the environment that we and our children will live in.

I hope some players agree with me. What is often said is that it is practice that matters not the equipment.

So, this thread is for anyone who would like to post on the lumber industry and different practices on harvesting trees around the world. Perhaps it is about the woods used in table tennis blades and which woods cause the most damage to the eco system.

Or perhaps it is for richrf who seems to be very disturbed by the marketing of a few TT companies who claim to use 250 year old trees to make Hinoki blades.

Whatever the subject, if you have good information to present on how the manufacture of TT blades affects the world eco system, go ahead and post.

So far, I have not seen richrf post any factual information about any of this, but here is his chance to go research and find out what he can about this subject.

UpSideDownCarl
12-05-2017, 01:58 PM
Here is some of the silliness that lead to this thread.


The 250 year Kiri Hinoki tree haters are out in force.

Do you have something against 250 year old trees that make our Earth more beautiful and healthy for ourselves and our children, or is winning the point the most important thing that you can think of in your life? Just wondering about your priorities? Clearly blade manufacturers care more about the extra money they can make by cutting up old trees.


I have 3 forest parcels arrond the contry. They have been forests for long centuries. On of them is slowly going off because of natural processes aside from cutting. The regional forest agency officer is helping to arrange sanitary cutting of trees near ti die. The other 2 parcels are in best shape and I love them. And this best shape is only due to the competent care of the forest specialist. Every year trees of different age, or part of them are cut, for different reasons - age, deseases, new trees growing, etc. The timber goes for different purposes - some for furniture, building, even art, some for heating. But the forest looks as nice as it could be. So don't think that cutting in civilized countries is a not controlled bandit action. We have a lot of forests and national parks where only sanitary cutting by authorirties is permitted. And the timber, if useble goes to application too.


Let's be realistic, that 250 year tree stuff is probably marketing propaganda to sell blades. There is all kinds of checks and balances in the system to prevent cutting of 250 year old treasure's.

I don't have a problem with saving all the trees, let's be consistently environmental friendly, let's ban all wood paddles, use artificial materials which are biologically safe.


If course it is marketing propaganda. The point is that Xiom and other manufacturers are fully convinced that there is a constituency in the market place that gets their kicks by cutting up 250 year old Kiri Hinoki trees. Whether or not there are proper checks in a world run amok for money, I have no idea, but I doubt it. Money rules and there appears to be a sufficient number of players out there to encourage chopping up great trees to make a trophy blade.


The furniture maker's and home product builder's who are a lot wealthier than ping pong manufacturer's would have first choice on any 250 year old tree relic's wood. The ping pong manufacturer would get leftovers at best.


@Suga D Thank you for the correction. Yes, it is the 250 year old Kiso Hinoki trees that Xiom and others are cutting up and bragging about. Is it that they are 250 years old that gives players the extra "magical" feeling? Xiom obviously believes it does since they make a special point of advertising this and nothing else about the composition of their new blades. I actually wrote to them to verify this but they never replied. Maybe someone else should try to verify especially if they are looking for that 250 year old magic?

BTW, I am well aware that there is a significant portion part of the population that gets their kicks out of cutting up magnificent old trees for bragging rights but thanks for the confirmation.


It's not so much about bragging rights but rather a feeling that is unrivaled in the eyes of very few.

But what i think is, instead of worrying about trees that are very well protected through sustainable foresting and gardening your energy could be more useful fighting for trees that aren't so protected like in the amazone rainforest or in Borneo, where whole forests are cut down for palm oil plantations which decreases the habitat of orang-utan and others and makes their population number decrease.
That just makes a little more sense than fighting against something that's under protection already, IMHO.
This rather reminds me a bit of Don Quijote
[Emoji6]


I'm quite aware about that "magical feeling". It's no different than that magical feeling of cutting up an elephant for ivory. It's always about the feeling. I'm just suggesting that differenyt people get different feelings when Xiom and other manufacturers carve up beautiful and old trees so they can charge extra money for a blade. Give credit to some manufacturers for understanding that not everyone gets that magical feeling when imagining that magnificent tree being carved up.


Been a Gergery user for almost all my life. I've also seen and used a few single ply Hinoki PH blades as there are many JPH players in Japan. When you talk about using 100-300 years old Hinoki, it's usualy for single-ply blades as the Hinoki characterictics are toned down somewhat in multi-ply blades.

As for saving the forest thing. Old Hinoki forests are state owned and controlled in Japan as other members of the forums have pointed out. 300 years old Hinoki will not be used for Shrines and bath tabs anymore so many of the historical shrines are using Sugi instead of Hinoki for restoration. Thank you for caring, but seriously, how much knowledge do you have regarding forestry industry in Japan apart from trees good people bad stuff? Please save your Maples and Rosewoods and Mahoganys beofre saving Hinoki in Japan.


I thought it was suggested that commentary on this subject should be brought to a different thread? When it is moved, I have a final thought on this subject.

There is no reason to believe that the benevolent and caring Japanese government will do any better to watch over forests than they they did watching over their nuclear plants that pretty much created a toxic ocean environment for the whole world to enjoy.

There is zero reason to have beautiful 250 year trees to be cut up into blades. The thing is sometimes someone has to raise voice to counter those who, for their own personal profit, are helping to destroy the environment that we and our children will live in.

I hope some players agree with me. What is often said is that it is practice that matters not the equipment.

Herbert
12-05-2017, 02:15 PM
Why is it sillyness?

UpSideDownCarl
12-05-2017, 03:29 PM
Why is it sillyness?

Well, maybe the subject of the trees isn’t. But the continual reverting to a statement about 250 year old trees without any research on the subject and despite information that the trees are protected by the Japanese government; the comparing of cutting down trees to killing elephants for Ivory; the comparing of cutting down trees with mismanagement of nuclear waste....well....without proper research we don’t know:

1) if they have cut down trees that old recently.
2) when the last 250 year old tree was cut down.
3) if those older trees were dying and that is why they were cut down.

So many things that jumping to a conclusion without research can cause.

I won’t use a bad analogy like: the people who are so adamant about abortion never being acceptable because it is murder, that they kill the doctors who perform abortions. Because this isn’t like that.

But not being able to see any reason for an abortion and insisting all abortions are bad without any research isn’t that far from what is going on here.

But, those who are interested can and should do the research. Then, if the research is presented, that will not be silliness. But knee-jerk statements without research on the subject, imposed over and over, on a thread where the subject was something completely different, well, that is silliness.

I do also see that richrf was continually attacked for his opinion by Suga D who also wears his heart on his shirt and sometimes responds too soon as well.

So, some of it is was about fire vs fire and that doesn’t work.

So, I suggest, for this thread, that both sides do there research and if either side is mad, wait 12 hours before posting and try to post based on facts and research. Without anger or name calling. That will never help.

And if that is done, this could end up being an interesting thread.

But the messages I quoted, I think that is silliness.

Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

Lightzy
12-05-2017, 05:25 PM
By doing this I feel you're mocking richf, which isn't right. It isn't right at all.
Who cares if it's silly, you don't need to go "look how silly!" and make a whole post about it, it's not right.

Der_Echte
12-05-2017, 05:32 PM
Who called Paul Bunyan to TTD at the ready ???

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Suga D
12-05-2017, 05:37 PM
I do also see that richrf was continually attacked for his opinion by Suga D who also wears his heart on his shirt and sometimes responds too soon as well.

So, some of it is was about fire vs fire and that doesn’t work.


I guess you're right, and maybe i shouldn't let myself be triggered so easily. Sometimes it's just too hard to resist. At one point i wasn't even sure if i was argueing with a human or with a bot...

It probably won't make any difference, but maybe just one more statement to my defense:
Anyone who will read carefully will find out, that actually i was countering richrf's irrational attacks and wasn't attacking richrf first.

Nevertheless, glad you opened this thread here. Looking forward to it.
[Emoji2]

UpSideDownCarl
12-05-2017, 05:53 PM
Suga D, I do get where you were coming from and that what you were doing was a response. However, richrf did not call names even after being called names. That stuff does tend to escalate an argument rather than moving it towards useful discussion. But it does take someone who is mature to own up when they were a part of a problem.


By doing this I feel you're mocking richf, which isn't right. It isn't right at all.
Who cares if it's silly, you don't need to go "look how silly!" and make a whole post about it, it's not right.

It seems you miss my point. I have criticized both sides of the argument. Both sides were operating from an emotional response. Not a well thought out, well reasoned or even remotely researched position.

The name calling and attacks were part of what was silly. But statements comparing tree farming to the killing of elephants and nuclear waste, I think both sides did their fair share of silliness.

Whereas, with good research, with actual facts, and discussion on the actual subject, it could be a great discussion and we all might learn a little about the the effect on the earth’s eco system that the TT blade making industry has. We may actually come to understand better the size of the ecological footprint that blade making has on the planet.

That could be a very productive discussion.

I actually gave richrf the option to open this thread himself. He seems to have declined but stated that if it was opened FOR HIM, he would have more to say.

I opened the door how I did. Now it is up to you guys to raise the level of the conversation and stop throwing mud.


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

langel
12-05-2017, 06:41 PM
I still can't find the "silliy" component in any statement.
Statements are as they are. Some are true, some are wrong.
And mine is a 100% true.
"Silly" label is nothing but a rude oppose.

Suga D
12-05-2017, 08:31 PM
Well, i was being silly by getting carried away by my emotions. That shouldn't happen.
It's not a way how grown ups should discuss, no matter what. Therefore i must apologise for that.
So @richrf, if you got something productive to bring to the table i'm all ears.

countrybread
12-05-2017, 09:40 PM
Relax, tree-hugging table tennis players of the world. I have your solution right here. Your welcome. See you on the tables.

https://s7d2.scene7.com/is/image/dkscdn/16SGAUFLWTDRRCQTXSTG_is/

Der_Echte
12-06-2017, 07:32 AM
The solution is the Shilkrot 900. See my review.

Second post from bottom of page 1.

http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=5437

MDP
12-06-2017, 10:36 AM
Well, maybe the subject of the trees isn’t. But the continual reverting to a statement about 250 year old trees without any research on the subject and despite information that the trees are protected by the Japanese government; the comparing of cutting down trees to killing elephants for Ivory; the comparing of cutting down trees with mismanagement of nuclear waste....well....without proper research we don’t know:

1) if they have cut down trees that old recently.
2) when the last 250 year old tree was cut down.
3) if those older trees were dying and that is why they were cut down.

So many things that jumping to a conclusion without research can cause.

I won’t use a bad analogy like: the people who are so adamant about abortion never being acceptable because it is murder, that they kill the doctors who perform abortions. Because this isn’t like that.

But not being able to see any reason for an abortion and insisting all abortions are bad without any research isn’t that far from what is going on here.

But, those who are interested can and should do the research. Then, if the research is presented, that will not be silliness. But knee-jerk statements without research on the subject, imposed over and over, on a thread where the subject was something completely different, well, that is silliness.

I do also see that richrf was continually attacked for his opinion by Suga D who also wears his heart on his shirt and sometimes responds too soon as well.

So, some of it is was about fire vs fire and that doesn’t work.

So, I suggest, for this thread, that both sides do there research and if either side is mad, wait 12 hours before posting and try to post based on facts and research. Without anger or name calling. That will never help.

And if that is done, this could end up being an interesting thread.

But the messages I quoted, I think that is silliness.

Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

My suggestion would be to start with changing the topic title. If you want this to become a serious discussion about the origin of the materials used in table tennis equipment manufacturing.

Now you're making it look like a joke-topic to make fun of certain people. (desired effect : post by countrybread? I'm not sure if that post is meant to be funny or just dumb). It doesn't really stimulate people to do research or contribute in a usefull way (for both sides of the argument).


----

Let me start the discussion with a general broad basic statement (that is not based on 100% accurate scientific evidence, to be clear):
If we look at the use of different materials, be it iron, steel, coal, oil, ... The proces always starts with a type of raw material which is mined/farmed/... and processed to a finished product. Some of these raw materials regenerate their supply to a certain degree (for exemple wood, rubber, ...) and some of these materials can be reused up to a certain degree (for exemple metal). To achieve a durable cycle, the demand is the same as the supply and the supply regenerates itself or the waste materials are enough to be fed back into the production proces (as supply). But I believe that modern day demands are a lot higher then what a durable supply can provide. Compared to materials like coal or plastic (oil), wood is probably one of the materials that is already way ahead on being durable. But I believe that this is not the case on a global scale.

Maybe this is a starting point on which we can build the topic?
Do you agree? Do you disagree? Why?
Which types of wood are being commonly used in TT manufacturing? Where do they come from? How are they produced? How long does it take to grow? How is the supply maintained?

I'm just brainstorming here, but this might become an interesting topic after all.

Loopadoop
12-06-2017, 07:22 PM
Why not allow materials that are used in regular Tennis to be used for TT paddles ? They last longer than wood paddles, won't damage when rubber is removed, don't damage as easy on the edges.

langel
12-06-2017, 08:29 PM
Why not allow materials that are used in regular Tennis to be used for TT paddles ? They last longer than wood paddles, won't damage when rubber is removed, don't damage as easy on the edges.

The mechanics in tennis and TT are very different.

BeGo
12-07-2017, 02:10 AM
The mechanics in tennis and TT are very different.Does not means TT cant get benefit from new materials inspired from Tennis.

I agree with loop, we should try them.

Cornilleau start loong ago, in Their Tacteo Series. ;)

Btw,

https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=6s&v=KCw3nZILMGM

Sent from my i5E using Tapatalk

UpSideDownCarl
12-07-2017, 02:16 AM
My suggestion would be to start with changing the topic title. If you want this to become a serious discussion about the origin of the materials used in table tennis equipment manufacturing.

I think you made an excellent post. And, I do think you have a point in this statement.

However, if you read the posts that I quoted, at the start of this thread, the trolling and the arguing, I am not sure it started with the people in that thread making an honest attempt at a deeper discussion. I think it will be great if it can go there though.

But the reason I started the thread myself is that, one of the people who kept on seeming irate that other people didn’t seem to care much about his position, and kept hijacking the thread, when he was directed to make the thread himself, his response was that he would have something to say when someone else made the thread for him.

If he had made a thread on the subject, perhaps it would have been different.


When I made the thread, was I poking fun at the real subject? No! Was I poking fun at the people who were creating the disturbance. Sure. But if anyone wants to make comments that elevate the discussion, I think that is fine. And if anyone wants to make their own thread on the subject that starts off more seriously, I think that would be fine too.

There are lots of threads on equipment for beginners. Why can’t there be another thread that starts differently on this subject.

Go for it.

And I do think your discussion about resources where the source can regenerate in comparison to resources that cannot, is a pretty useful place to start with this subject.

And the point that, while we can plant new trees when we cut other trees down, we may not be able to replace a tree that was 250 years old, has a place. But in the other thread, most of what was going on wasn’t useful discussion and was lead by emotional responses from both sides.


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

NextLevel
12-07-2017, 05:07 AM
I love my hinoki top ply - don't dare try to take it away from me, you tree huggers! You will have to saw off my hand with the blade in it!

Tony's Table Tennis
12-07-2017, 09:32 PM
claiming companies that are "false advertising" (250yr.....) with no proof is pure slander and nothing more
thats where I stop reading

Tony's Table Tennis
12-07-2017, 09:36 PM
Why not allow materials that are used in regular Tennis to be used for TT paddles ? They last longer than wood paddles, won't damage when rubber is removed, don't damage as easy on the edges.

Then one would want a table tennis ball to be like a tennis ball too, it would last longer too

countrybread
12-08-2017, 09:23 PM
Here's a fine blade by Nittaku, the Forestia. Made of used kiso hinoki. I actually own one but never got around to using it. Just letting conscientious table tennis players know its out there.

https://img.ruten.com.tw/s2/1/91/94/21711491177876_506.jpg

NextLevel
12-08-2017, 09:54 PM
Here's a fine blade by Nittaku, the Forestia. Made of used kiso hinoki. I actually own one but never got around to using it. Just letting conscientious table tennis players know its out there.

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/cache.php?img=https%3A%2F%2Fimg.ruten.com.tw%2Fs2%2F1%2F91%2F94%2F21711491177876_506.jpg


Man, you can't encourage them by buying the used kiso hinoki blade so that people are profiting off the evil deed of cutting the trees *twice*. Just stay of all kiso hinoki.

On a more serious note, man, I love my hinoki.

Suga D
12-11-2017, 03:09 PM
Here's a fine blade by Nittaku, the Forestia. Made of used kiso hinoki. I actually own one but never got around to using it. Just letting conscientious table tennis players know its out there.

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/cache.php?img=https%3A%2F%2Fimg.ruten.com.tw%2Fs2%2F1%2F91%2F94%2F21711491177876_506.jpg

Hahahaaa
[Emoji23]
BTW: Here´s what Nittaku writes for our worried members.
14890
@richrf:
As i wrote in the other thread instead of waisting your energy on things that are well protected, rather stop that foolishness and worry about things that are more relevant and worth worrying. IMHO this whole convo and attitude is rather pseudo helpful.

After all i think we're pretty much on the same team.

A more fyah! Dat mi seh.

https://youtu.be/2QVIE0AYkRA

langel
12-11-2017, 06:26 PM
I calculated that the timber in my blade is less than 0.02% of the timber in my loudspeaker boxes, and less than 0.00001% of the timber in my flat furniture.
So it would be wise to concentrate green energy towerds more signifficant problems.

Topspinner
12-11-2017, 06:52 PM
Nowadays alot of wooden products have a substanability label like fsc. I hope to see it also in table tennis more.

Tony's Table Tennis
12-11-2017, 08:07 PM
I calculated that the timber in my blade is less than 0.02% of the timber in my loudspeaker boxes, and less than 0.00001% of the timber in my flat furniture.
So it would be wise to concentrate green energy towerds more signifficant problems.

And i'm sure all those people that want to concentrate on green energy are also Vegan, and using electric cars etc, otherwise what they say on forums and how they live they lives equal one word: hypocrite!

Suga D
12-11-2017, 09:40 PM
And i'm sure all those people that want to concentrate on green energy are also Vegan, and using electric cars etc, otherwise what they say on forums and how they live they lives equal one word: hypocrite!

Sorry Tony,

I don't think this is fair.
If one is longing for sustainable living you have to make a start at one point and then go from there.

And although i've been debating with richrf, mdp and a few others about this I'm quite surprised this is really coming from you.

Since you're also active on FB and most likely have some capetonian friends you probably have seen this post here that has gone viral in SA:
https://www.goodthingsguy.com/opinion/open-letter-captonian-water-crisis/
Hence I'm surprised of your trump-like ignorance.
Please excuse my strong language but climate change is neither a political agenda nor it is a freaking joke. It's more about awareness of what's happening around you!
The 20th of may 2k18 is effing real!!

YOU GUYS ARE RUNNING OUT OF F*CKING WATER!! I just hope it won't be as dramatic as forecasted.

And it's not only happening there. there are more places on our lovely planet that are drowning already!
Stuff can get effing dramatic when the sh*t hits the fan!

Ever heard of shishmaref a village in Alaska?

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/08/20/us/shishmaref-alaska-elocate-vote-climate-change.html?/

Even China is starting to rethink their ecological behaviour.
http://www.climateactionprogramme.org/news/china-leads-the-way-to-the-global-renewable-energy-revolution

So making jokes about this is not only a bit inappropriate and misplaced but completely off IMHO.

NextLevel
12-11-2017, 10:10 PM
Sorry Tony,

I don't think this is fair.
If one is longing for sustainable living you have to make a start at one point and then go from there.

And although i've been debating with richrf, mdp and a few others about this I'm quite surprised this is really coming from you.

Since you're also active on FB and most likely have some capetonian friends you probably have seen this post here that has gone viral in SA:
https://www.goodthingsguy.com/opinion/open-letter-captonian-water-crisis/
Hence I'm surprised of your trump-like ignorance.
Please excuse my strong language but climate change is neither a political agenda nor it is a freaking joke. It's more about awareness of what's happening around you!
The 20th of may 2k18 is effing real!!

YOU GUYS ARE RUNNING OUT OF F*CKING WATER!! I just hope it won't be as dramatic as forecasted.

And it's not only happening there. there are more places on our lovely planet that are drowning already!
Stuff can get effing dramatic when the sh*t hits the fan!

Ever heard of shishmaref a village in Alaska?

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/08/20/us/shishmaref-alaska-elocate-vote-climate-change.html?/

Even China is starting to rethink their ecological behaviour.
http://www.climateactionprogramme.org/news/china-leads-the-way-to-the-global-renewable-energy-revolution

So making jokes about this is not only a bit inappropriate and misplaced but completely off IMHO.

Your post is entirely inappropriate.

What he is saying is entirely fair - if you talk the talk, then walk the walk. I am a hypocrite when it comes to EJing - I tell people to stay with one blade then I change blades like I am losing sleep.

And if you are starting to live sustainably, good for you. The point is not to be accusing people of one thing and then doing another. Everyone needs to be held accountable.

Brs
12-11-2017, 10:31 PM
If you want to live sustainably and save the planet as we know it there is only one simple thing you need to do -- have zero children, or at most one. Then you can eat and drive and fly as much as you want, and even use rare ancient trees to make pingpong paddles, because you have done the one and only thing that will actually change the trajectory of environmental destruction. Everything else is just greenwash.

Suga D
12-11-2017, 10:53 PM
Your post is entirely inappropriate.

What he is saying is entirely fair - if you talk the talk, then walk the walk. I am a hypocrite when it comes to EJing - I tell people to stay with one blade then I change blades like I am losing sleep.

And if you are starting to live sustainably, good for you. The point is not to be accusing people of one thing and then doing another. Everyone needs to be held accountable.

This might be your opinion, but definitely not mine. I would just have to disagree there!
I could agree that there is not enough time for half-stepping, NL but everything else? Are you freakin daydreaming? Your arguement is absolutely not realistic and I´m sure you know it!

Were you actually willing and able to read the first link i've posted?
Capetown is probably gonna run dry on the 20th of May 2018 no matter how ignorant you remain.
BTW: from the quote you could have found out that my post was directed at Tony, and I wrote to him for a reason, since he stays in CT and most likely will be able to tell us first hand how serious things get.


If you want to live sustainably and save the planet as we know it there is only one simple thing you need to do -- have zero children, or at most one. Then you can eat and drive and fly as much as you want, and even use rare ancient trees to make pingpong paddles, because you have done the one and only thing that will actually change the trajectory of environmental destruction. Everything else is just greenwash.

Well that might be your opinion, but certainly not mine.
I could agree on the children, but not on greenwashing.
That's like saying everything is hopeless anyway.
I strongly refuse to believe so.
Instead of giving up from the start i rather prefer the opinion and the knowledge of those that try to find ways out of this.

It's easy to say so when one isn't related but when family members fear of dehydrating, 'cause their simply running out of water you might talk differently.

Tony's Table Tennis
12-11-2017, 11:46 PM
Suga D
You have just posted the most inappropriate post ever

I read that there is some people that is fussy about what blades made of and how it will "hurt our rain forest"
Now before you start linking websites to the whole planet, which I have no time or intention to open your links or comment thereof
back to what I am saying, if such fussy people can teach other peoples on what to do or what is morally incorrect to do, then such fussy people better be living super green, else one word - hypocrite with a capital H

Tony's Table Tennis
12-11-2017, 11:55 PM
If you want to live sustainably and save the planet as we know it there is only one simple thing you need to do -- have zero children, or at most one. Then you can eat and drive and fly as much as you want, and even use rare ancient trees to make pingpong paddles, because you have done the one and only thing that will actually change the trajectory of environmental destruction. Everything else is just greenwash.

Throughout Chinese 5000 year history.
Major disaster came when popular level was at a certain ratio to what resources was available
Then a huge population gets wiped out (at times it is near 50% of the population)

Over population is a huge problem in some parts, under population in some parts is also a huge problem.
Generally your 3rd worlds have too much kids and your 1st worlds are not having kids

But then again, resource wastage is a huge problem.
I guess I do my little bit as a vegetarian.
Since someone talked about water crisis, 1kg of steak takes more than 15000litres of water, whereby the Level 6 water crisis is asking 1 person to use 89 litres a day.
So if someone eats 100grams of steak (1500l), you just used over 2 weeks of water allowance

So can I say, limit meat is better than complaining about 250 year old wood?
Any ways, I'm not here to punt my views on others, nor trying to promote my belief out side table tennis

They don't like people using 250 year old woods, then good for you
They calling such companies making false advertising - I hope they sue them for millions, so they can use these money to plant more trees

Suga D
12-12-2017, 12:01 AM
Suga D
You have just posted the most inappropriate post ever

I read that there is some people that is fussy about what blades made of and how it will "hurt our rain forest"
Now before you start linking websites to the whole planet, which I have no time or intention to open your links or comment thereof
back to what I am saying, if such fussy people can teach other peoples on what to do or what is morally incorrect to do, then such fussy people better be living super green, else one word - hypocrite with a capital H

Hahahaaa... you´re too funny.
[Emoji23]
What are you trying to prove with your childish reaction? Calling my post inappropiate after i´ve been calling yours likewise?
This is too much kindergarden for me...

Well I'm not here to force my beliefs on you. We could debate on which post is more inappropriate, but that will lead us nowhere.
All i can hope for is your evironmental awareness level rising.
Why not continue this convo end of may 2k18?
[Emoji6]

Tony's Table Tennis
12-12-2017, 12:02 AM
Let's continue this convo end of may 2k18
[Emoji6]

I just lost my respect for you, so bugger off

Suga D
12-12-2017, 12:06 AM
I just lost my respect for you, so bugger off

From your first response i doubt you ever had any.
:)
Mature reaction in dealing with criticism. Boo freaking hooo.....
Glad to know how you feel.
I hope i will be able to live with that. Thank you!
[Emoji2]

countrybread
12-12-2017, 03:18 AM
I believe this is an issue that environmentalists must discus amongst themselves. If they can't convince themselves to practice what they preach then they will always have limited political power. No one finds boutique environmentalists with huge carbon footprints compelling.

Regarding table tennis, they have a few options:

- Switch to plastic paddles manufactured by Stiga and Cornilleau. If they can actually win tournaments with them then companies might be interested.
- Embrace TTX and make it popular through a grassroots movement.
- If those options are unsavory, and the love of wood is too strong, then the burden of proof is on the environmentalists to show that table tennis products have minimal impact on trees and global warming.

But I love hinoki too, so whatever you guys decide don't touch my septear. haha!

Der_Echte
12-12-2017, 06:58 AM
The ones who drive electric cars need to think of how their electricity is made, often with fossil fuels of forbid, nuclear. The ones driving these things thinking they are doing so many good stuff for planet are hypocrites as Tony rightfully contrasted.

I lived a good chunk of my adult life in Germany and was impressed and converted a good chunk of my environment views towards what Germans think, they really care about conserving, recycling, and reducing... these things are REAL and contribute well. Contrast that to the average USA person in Europe and you see the American as a wasteful environmental bandit, rightfully so.

I can see the concerns of both Suga D and Europe, as well as the practical view of Tony, regardless of how they structured their posts.

Der_Echte
12-12-2017, 07:02 AM
Look at what average European drives if the family has 2 kids... IF they have a car... usually a very tiny Opel or Renault of Fiat... gets over 40 MPG or 7L per 100 km... Contrast that to USA people who insist and driving a 5000LB jumbo SUV that gets 1/3 to 1/4 of that... contrast that to how European city infrastructure is developed... USA people have to drive criss cross across town 3x to do basic stuff, Europeans zone stuff so you park once and walk around. Big help Europe does doing that.

I agree with the one who said we have much bigger fish to fry than who cut down what tree to make what blade when we have much larger waste issues at hand.

brokenball
12-12-2017, 07:31 AM
I am confused. What wood used in TT paddle grows in the rain forest?
I have NEVER heard of a TT blade manufacturer getting raided.
However, Gibson guitars have been raided but they don't really uses that much wood in a guitar.
There seems to be plenty of white and red cedar in Canada. I know, it is used for Japanese temples. The only problem is that the wood must be 'clear' ceder or perfect cedar like TT player expect in their blades.
BC Canada is not a rain forest at least not in the tropical sense. Obviously it does rain a lot in BC and in the Pacific North West.
In the Pacific North West there are plenty of Hinoki farms. It rains a lot in the Pacific North West but I would call the forest a rain forest. Most of the companies buying Hinoki are furniture companies since we don't have TT blade manufacturers in the Pacific North West.

Astorix
12-12-2017, 08:09 AM
I believe this is an issue that environmentalists must discus amongst themselves. If they can't convince themselves to practice what they preach then they will always have limited political power. No one finds boutique environmentalists with huge carbon footprints compelling.

Regarding table tennis, they have a few options:

- Switch to plastic paddles manufactured by Stiga and Cornilleau. If they can actually win tournaments with them then companies might be interested.
- Embrace TTX and make it popular through a grassroots movement.
- If those options are unsavory, and the love of wood is too strong, then the burden of proof is on the environmentalists to show that table tennis products have minimal impact on trees and global warming.

But I love hinoki too, so whatever you guys decide don't touch my septear. haha!




Plastic Rackets are against the rules. The Blade must contain to a minimum of 85% of wood. Sorry. :p

langel
12-12-2017, 10:54 AM
Here we have a song with a general phylosophy that a man should plant at least two peach trees plus two cherry trees during his life, otherwise his life would be empty.

I've had conversations with many green movement enthustiasts making rallys and riots, young people who had never planted a single tree or even a flower.

I've planted so many trees in front of my home, in the city park, in mountain reagions needed replanting, in my forests and gardens, that I feel my conscience free enough to EJ with some 5 TT blades.

And I woukd advise the green marchers to organize planting, rather than marching.

Suga D
12-12-2017, 06:36 PM
And I woukd advise the green marchers to organize planting, rather than marching.

You may have a point, as action ALWAYS speaks louder than words, but then again how would you let others know about the issue?

You plant a tree next someone else cuts it down. You plant the next tree until someone will cut it down again and so on... If you continue that nothing ever gonna change, so there must be some that try to wake the public awareness. You'll never gonna get that by silently planting and re-planting, someone has to raise the attention this situation receives.

If you have read my other posts you should know by now that I'm not running around saying TT-blades are bare evil.
Yet i've never hit with a bamboo blade. Could be interesting.

As Der_Echte has written so nicely, there are 'bigger fish to fry.'
I think cutting down rainforest in Borneo for palm oil and palm tree plantations so Orang-Utan's go extinct could be such a 'bigger fish'...

langel
12-12-2017, 07:40 PM
Yes, action always speaks louder than words.
And I agree with a lot of your words.
My words were addressed mostly to those, who are ONLY speaking and never acting.
I do a "silent" planting in my teritory only, in public teritory planting is well organized and is not silent.
Society makes a difference too. In my society one can not cut a tree like the way you say. If one cuts a tree to build a building, he has to plant other 10 on a place, pointed by the authoritys. So build your society and mind and control your authoritys.
And back to the words job - there are many different ways to express an idea. Marching is one of them and I'm not against it. I'm against the "professional" marchers and the ones with no other real solving the problem activity. Very often such people are well manipulated by someones hidden interests.
My way to express, aside from silent planting, is like that:
/a trailer of my experimental film for betrayal, political intrigues, slavery mind, misery and dogma, wars, alienation, violance, addiction and pollution - "Lets Try It Again"/


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQHm-GELHPg

tropical
12-12-2017, 09:45 PM
Well ... I am not going to blame anyone for using rare, exotic woods to make TT blades. If they can afford, and find them, go ahead and make their days. Power are with them. However, I do resent people who "waste" energy, natural resources, etc. like the world is going to end tomorrow. Please notice the quoted "waste"! These folks are really irresponsible.

My guitar is made of Brazilian rosewood. Do I feel guilty about it? Absolutely not. Am I a hypocrite? Possibly not. I do ride bicycle to work as part of green and health consciousness. I do have 2 beautiful children and do not agree with anyone who said to save the environment we should not have children as it sounds extreme. I recycle a lot as I am cheap but I do feel I contribute something to a green environment. I encourage my wife, kids to conserve the energy and natural resources as much as possible and they do it very well and I am proud of such effort.

So I do not think anyone who use the rare 250y/o wood for TT blade is wrong. He/she has the right to use it. The trees are not needed to be saved just because they are 250 y/o. Heck .. my Brazilian rosewood is even rarer... Don't shoot me ;)

Suga D
12-13-2017, 06:45 PM
Nowadays alot of wooden products have a substanability label like fsc. I hope to see it also in table tennis more.

That would be nice.

Tony's Table Tennis
12-15-2017, 06:57 AM
Well ... I am not going to blame anyone for using rare, exotic woods to make TT blades. If they can afford, and find them, go ahead and make their days. Power are with them. However, I do resent people who "waste" energy, natural resources, etc. like the world is going to end tomorrow. Please notice the quoted "waste"! These folks are really irresponsible.

My guitar is made of Brazilian rosewood. Do I feel guilty about it? Absolutely not. Am I a hypocrite? Possibly not. I do ride bicycle to work as part of green and health consciousness. I do have 2 beautiful children and do not agree with anyone who said to save the environment we should not have children as it sounds extreme. I recycle a lot as I am cheap but I do feel I contribute something to a green environment. I encourage my wife, kids to conserve the energy and natural resources as much as possible and they do it very well and I am proud of such effort.

So I do not think anyone who use the rare 250y/o wood for TT blade is wrong. He/she has the right to use it. The trees are not needed to be saved just because they are 250 y/o. Heck .. my Brazilian rosewood is even rarer... Don't shoot me ;)

I see not much has progressed since I was last on the forum
Also I see the main quoted person from OP isn't in there too.

never the less, I guess it is so difficult to be total green
generally speaking - the people that are practicing green won't go around telling people to stop this or stop that (as imo that is part of wasting energy too :p)

A lot of countries has gone green approach (citizen's practicing recycle, renewalable, using own cutlery/straws, walk/cycle more than drive/public transport) but heck it is indeed so difficult. Just logging onto this forum is anti green (even though i spend less than 1 hour a week :) )

I guess what just flare me up is reading the forcing opinion on what is good and what is bad for table tennis players, but then what they cover is always 1 sided and claiming Xiom and other companies has false marketing (this is a huge claim, so I see it as hate speech than anything else - show me proof and I will change my perception)

It is like animal activists saying certain group of people are killing animals, mean while after a march, they are gathering around and having a BBQ. I call these people hypocrites too

Suga D
12-19-2017, 03:36 PM
Interesting!
Suddenly i feel a total change of vibe.
NICE
[Emoji2]

perham
12-20-2017, 01:32 PM
The problem isn’t the people who are not green. The problem is that there are too many people. Everything will be solved if we send 3 billion people to Mars. Sounds ridiculous now, but might be a viable solution in a 100 years.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

UpSideDownCarl
12-20-2017, 01:36 PM
The problem isn’t the people who are not green. The problem is that there are too many people. Everything will be solved if we send 3 billion people to Mars. Sounds ridiculous now, but might be a viable solution in a 100 years.

[emoji2] I think I saw that Sci-Fi movie. Hahahahaha.


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

Archosaurus
12-20-2017, 02:44 PM
I think we got bigger problems than a relative handful of trees being chopped down to produce niche products. I don't know if it's right or not, or what effect TT equipment manufacture even has in the real world, but I'm not too sure that TT is the leading cause for deforestation in the world.

Topspinner
12-20-2017, 04:10 PM
Ofcourse table tennis use small amounts of earth's sources. But It's still good to be as "green" as possible.

Archosaurus
12-20-2017, 04:21 PM
Yes, I suggest we produce all the bats out of plastic and other synthetic materials instead of natural and renewable material such as wood. That way the plastic manufacturers will ha- I mean, the planet will be saved.

yoass
12-20-2017, 04:57 PM
I lit a stove a few weeks ago using the shattered remains of a Butterfly Maze Magic blade for kindling. Cycle of life stuff can feel weird.

langel
12-20-2017, 06:37 PM
But don't brush with balls