Help Against Offensive Long Pips!

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Perhaps this is an issue a lot of players will have at some point, and I cannot stop thinking about why I lost so easily against this long pip player in particular.

To begin with, I guess one can say I'm fairly experienced and has had enough exposure playing against long pip players to understand basic concepts and tactics to play against their playing style. Problem is, all of the long pip players I've played against have a passive strategy, they tend to lean towards defense quite often, with the exception of one (so far...) that I just cannot see how i can win against him.

He plays RPB, long pip on one side, inverted on the other (Rating is USATT 2359). His control over the table is immense (he plays in the middle of the table, no wonder...), and he plays offensive strokes very often with good position on the table; he makes it difficult to attack and sometime to even return some shots. I've won against long-pip players ranging from 1400 to 2100, but none of them are as offensive as him.

I don't know if this is enough information to create a strategy against this type of player, but I could provide more information if necessary.

Thank you!
 
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You probably just got outplayed, unless you are 100% sure the pips was the only thing that made you lose.

If your opponent is playing offensively with his pips, it wouldn't hurt to back up a little bit. It doesn't hurt to be patient either, since most likely, there will not be much (if any) sponge on the long pips side, ensuring that the ball cannot comes back that fast. However, make sure you know when and how to punish certain long pips shots. If any of them comes up a little higher than usual, hit a power shot at the top of the bounce.

I'm sure you've noticed that when the pips are used in a topspin motion against a topspin ball, the ball comes back mostly no-spin.

Other than that, just keep in mind that when it comes to good long pip players (2300 is definitely high enough), they are able to vary the spin enough with their pips to mess you up, unlike the popular notion that the ball always comes back with opposite spin.

When you play short, be prepared to get a fast ball when they use their pips. Playing short against long pips isn't as good as playing short against a normal player, so keep that in mind.

One thing that I've found that works pretty well against any close table player is that while you are attacking, you can suddenly add sidespin to your loop to throw off your opponent and also add more angle.

**************

If you could describe the player a little bit better (mostly using forehand? what's his preferred receive?), that would be nice
 
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There are two players I’ve encountered, both at this rating or higher, that the main reasons for my loss was due to no good strategies/tactics and poor footwork. At this level, I have to move so much! So many balls are approaching me at uncomfortable positions, I just cant move to approach these on time! Against others, I could do fine regarding footwork, though. However, strategies and mental toughness (Sometimes I get a bit too angry) are probably my weak points when playing with people of such magnitude. I could say this about his playing style though:

He seems to be very comfortable against sidespin when its within his reach, especially on serve or when the ball is relatively near the middle of the table. He likes to control the ball with his backhand side, and he uses some type of backhand punch followed by a forehand attack to finish most points.

Hopefully this Friday I play against him and record the match to share on here and to reflect and correct any errors I have :).
 
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Clu, I have no clue who this player is, I know an LP player in FL who USED to be that rating, but not playing so much his level dropped a level or so. He was a chopper anyway, not an all-out FH aggressor. Who is it? Who let the dogs out?

All I can say is find his middle and find a way to make real heavy spin slow and shallow or real deep. If the guy is 2300+, you will not have easy chances or position to do that, but you never know.
 
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He’s Bin Hai Chu; I guess you can say he’s somewhat “recognzied” among the States. There are quite a few matches of him online, I just preferred not to say who he was because I wanted to generalize the topic and not just have tactics when facing that person in particular, but others that have a similar style as his, kind of to gain an understanding of what to do and look out for in general.
 
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I dont know what exactly is his setup, only that he uses long pip and inverted...
 
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Just out of curiosity, If this guy is LP player is USATT 2359, what's your rating? Or if you don't have one, what would you estimate it to be?

Without a video of your match to analyze your mistakes, we can't help you much. For starters, I'd start recording your matches. That'll help a lot.

But I'm just curious to know if there's something tactically you're doing wrong, or if you're simply out-classed. For the record, there's nothing wrong with that, I just don't think you should be beating yourself up with "Why can't I beat this guy?!?" if you're say USATT 2000 or 2100 and he's 2359 for example. He probably should win those pretty easily. Not saying you go in expecting to lose. Just that if you did, the result probably wouldn't be all that surprising.

If that were the case, sure there's probably tactical things you could do to help you play him better but at some point, the skill gap is just to great to realistically expect to win those IMO. You have to find smaller victories. ex: "Okay I took a game off him last time. Lets see if I can get two. Or Lets see if I can keep all the games close like 11-9, etc." And in that process, because you're getting pushed to reach those goals, maybe you'll increase your skill to be able to get a match here or there.

But back to the main question. What's your rating?
 
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I dont know what exactly is his setup, only that he uses long pip and inverted...

Look at his paddle, every long pips has certain tendencies for style, then read the rubber reviews at the large database, what are the characteristics of his inverted too ? The blade also affects the playability of OX long pips.
 
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Currently, my rating is 1537, and several people, including him, have made reference to my rating as something to not correlate with my technique. However, I do agree that I lack certain concepts that I should have a solid foundation in if I wanted to win people of this category. I do feel proud that the games were close, all of them were wins after deuce and 11-8 or 11-9, though, but it was still a 3-0 loss and I felt that I could have won at least one. I never expected to win at all, but I feel dissapointed that after all that, I still couldnt win 1 game out of the set. Against players of similar ratings, I have won at least 1 or even 2 games, rarely winning them, but I do feel accomplished of what I’ve done so far.

I havent checked his racket out, so thats why I dont know exactly what he has; big mistake on my behalf.

I do plan on playing him on Friday, though, if we land in the same group. Ill see if i can record, though I’ll open another thread with myself if anyone would like.
 
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Okay now that that's out of the way, don't feel disappointed if the rating gap is that great. He should win 3-0 essentially every time. Make smaller goals. Try to get a game off him. See if you can eventually make it consistent to where you normally nab a game. Happiness is the result of realistic expectations. Maybe someday you're able to close the gap enough to win some.

Having said that, I use to play this style. Certainly not to that level (it's hard to attack so many shots with LPs but some can do it) but I can give you ideas of what they're looking for. I also watched his match vs Eugene Wang to get an idea for his style.

So he uses LPs on the FH and inverted on the RPB. You should know that a player with this style is always looking to attack backspin balls with the LPs to continue the spin. So just bank on any backspin serve you give, any push, they're attacking. The ball will probably come at you relatively fast with topsin but not a ton of topspin like a loop or anything. Have to learn to counter back a fast normal level topspin ball.

Also, don't be fooled by that LP backhand chopping looking serve with the LPs. That balls pretty spinless coming over after the bounces. You can attack that serve. I'd be weary of pushing it because then he will pounce on that ball.

Since I never saw him twiddle in his match, a setup point you can almost assuredly get is to serve him a topspin or side/top ball, he will push it or just block it with his LPs, if you served fast & long, his return of backspin to you will be long off the table and you loop that 3rd ball.

My training partner back when i used to twiddle and use LPs more in this style would learn to soft loop a backspin ball, i LP chop-block, it goes back to him as backspin and he'd soft loop again. Over & over until one of my LP chops was a pinch too high and then he'd try to loop kill. I eventually came to the conclusion that I cannot allow someone to safely, high arch soft loop balls over & over without punishing it. So after a while I'd try to step around and attack that topspin ball with inverted.

But yeah he wouldn't push vs my chop blocks going to backspin at him because he knew if he pushed coming backspin to me, I LP attack that ball. So it was just better for him to keep me on the defensive.

For that reason, I didn't like that particular style of play and I was playing too passive so I don't really twiddle to use LPs on my FH anymore. If it comes to my FH, i loop.
 
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Unless you had a consistent way of winning points (if you did, please tell), he probably wasn't playing seriously. There's not much you can do since there's a huge skill gap.

how 'good' your technique is doesn't really matter too much in games if you are at 2200 and below. There are players with bad technique in that range that can still play well. Having good technique only means that you have to potential to improve. Just make sure you can serve, receive, and punish. If you couldn't do those effectively, then you simply got outplayed.

If you could do those effectively, you could follow the tips we mentioned and you should be able to play better.
 
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Currently, my rating is 1537, and several people, including him, have made reference to my rating as something to not correlate with my technique. However, I do agree that I lack certain concepts that I should have a solid foundation in if I wanted to win people of this category. I do feel proud that the games were close, all of them were wins after deuce and 11-8 or 11-9, though, but it was still a 3-0 loss and I felt that I could have won at least one. I never expected to win at all, but I feel dissapointed that after all that, I still couldnt win 1 game out of the set. Against players of similar ratings, I have won at least 1 or even 2 games, rarely winning them, but I do feel accomplished of what I’ve done so far.

I havent checked his racket out, so thats why I dont know exactly what he has; big mistake on my behalf.

I do plan on playing him on Friday, though, if we land in the same group. Ill see if i can record, though I’ll open another thread with myself if anyone would like.
He is probably beating you with his C game. When you get better, you will really understand how good he is.
 
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A few important notes to clarify.

1. On last check.... Bin is not using LP, a month or two ago he was using Butterfly Challenger Attack. It's a short pip rubber, but it does have a disturbing effect sometimes- but it's definitely not a true long pips.

2. Bin is also a penholder, which I believe hasn't yet been mentioned in this thread.

3. You can often find videos of him on the Handicap tournament nights on the Broward Table Tennis Club Facebook page.
 
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Club, NL is right, the LP player is 8 levels above your level. Such a player will win using 10 percent effort just by serve, push, and placement. Look at ttc owner Dan, who is likely the level of you opponent, but vs pros only 5 or 6 levels above Dan, no matter what, Dan only gets 0 few points... and the pro is obviously taking it real easy.

That is tt reality with such a difference in level. There must be at least 25 or 30 levels in this sport. It will always be so.

Still, playing vs such a player will be good experience if you take away the right things of awareness.

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Look at his paddle, every long pips has certain tendencies for style, then read the rubber reviews at the large database, what are the characteristics of his inverted too ? The blade also affects the playability of OX long pips.

(I didn't read the longer comments)

There is a few match of him on the youtube, even against Eugene Wang (Wang Zhen). He uses sponge for sure.
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So, my tips:
It seems that the easiest solution is pin him to the BH with slow loops then when he blocks to your FH, finish crosscourt (of cource you must bring in variations).
Also, dead punching BHs are quite annoying, even for short pip players. Try to be always at the middle. He likes to pivot and attack with his FH, but his footwork isn't that good and his FH corner is a vulnerable point. Even if he returns a shot from there, you're in control.
Good luck!
 
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