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TableTennisDaily
01-01-2018, 01:37 PM
NEWS FLASH!

It's official, Dimitrij Ovtcharov is the New World Number 1! What a great way to start the new year for Germanys new world number 1! Last month's round of 16 victory against Koki Niwa at the World Tour Grand Finals secured Ovtcharov’s new status as the best player in the world.

This however was not official until today when the ITTF confirmed it via the release of the January 2018 ranking list!

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com//forum/images/dimitrijovtcharov2018worldranked1.jpg

2017 was the year of Dimitrij Ovtcharov! His first big win was at the China Open where he defeated German compatriot Timo Boll in the final. Dimitrij then followed this up by defeating Timo Boll again in the World Cup final, claiming his first major championship title.

A few weeks later Dimitrij shocked the table tennis world defeating China’s Fan Zhendong in the semi final of the German Open. In the final Ovtcharov took out once again Timo Boll!

These tournament victories have put Dimitrij on top of the world, as the new world ranking system ranks players on how far they reach in events. It has caused a lot of notable changes, Olympic/World Champion and former world number 1 Ma Long now incredibly moves to world number 7! In the Women's event, Ding Ning was ranked number 3 last month, this month the World Champion sits at number 21! Here's the top 30 list below:


MENS WORLD RANKING

01 (03) Dimitrij Ovtcharov
02 (02) Fan Zhendong
03 (05) Timo Boll
04 (06) Lin Gaoyuan
05 (04) Xu Xin
06 (08) Koki Niwa
07 (01) Ma Long
07 (14) Wong Chun Ting
09 (11) Simon Gauzy
10 (15) Kenta Matsudaira
11 (17) Tomokazu Harimoto
12 (19) Marcos Freitas
13 (07) Jun Mizutani
14 (10) Lee Sang Su
15 (13) Chuang Chih Yuan
16 (26) Omar Assar
17 (31) Hygo Calderano
18 (23) Ruwen Filus
19 (25) Yuya Oshima
20 (21) Quadri Aruna
21 (12) Fang Bo
22 (27) Kristian Karlsson
23 (27) Maharu Yoshimura
24 (22) Masaki Yoshida
25 (18) Vladimir Samsonov
26 (33) Emmanuel Lebesson
27 (47) Ricardo Walther
28 (34) Jin Ueda
29 (40) Chen Chien-An
30 (23) Jeong Sangeun


WOMENS WORLD RANKING

01 (02) Chen Meng
02 (01) Zhu Yuling
03 (11) Feng Tianwei
04 (05) Kasumir Ishikawa
05 (09) Mima Ito
06 (06) Miu Hirano
07 (12) Cheng I-Ching
08 (08) Wang Manyu
09 (19) Doo Hoi Kem
10 (10) Chen Xingtong
11 (14) Hina Hayata
12 (25) Lee Ho Ching
13 (18) Miyu Kato
14 (23) Li Jie
15 (17) Yuting Gu
16 (26) Chen Szu-Yu
17 (32) Sakura Mori
18 (22) Hyowon Suh
19 (14) Hitomi Sato
20 (35) Georgina Pota
21 (03) Ding Ning
22 (37) Sofia Polcanova
23 (27) Xiaona Shan
24 (04) Liu Shiwen
25 (45) Matilda Ekholm
26 (30) Elizabeta Samara
27 (44) Yang Haeun
28 (21) Honoka Hashimoto
29 (34) Jian Zeng
30 (52) Soo wai Yam Minnie

A huge congratulations to Dimitrij Ovtcharov stating 2018 as the New World Number 1 table tennis player! This will sure send shock waves across the table tennis world as the last European player to be number 1 in the world was Timo Boll back in 2011.

What do you think of this new ranking system? Leave your comments below.

WorkerBee
01-01-2018, 02:33 PM
Is there a similar ranking list for China?

TTHopeful
01-01-2018, 02:52 PM
Ma Long at number 7! How many events does he need to win to get back to number 1 anyone know?

rainneverever
01-01-2018, 03:08 PM
Happy New Year! And welcome (?) to the world with new WR system.
Check out what Dima said about his becoming WR#1 and why he dropped Hungarian Open lol
https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/cache.php?img=https%3A%2F%2Fi2.hoopchina.com.cn%2Fblogfile%2F201712%2F29%2FBbsImg151452590010558_80128101175161_740x981.png

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/cache.php?img=https%3A%2F%2Fi1.hoopchina.com.cn%2Fblogfile%2F201712%2F29%2FBbsImg151452661218843_80128101175161_733x505.png

Atas Newton
01-01-2018, 03:20 PM
Looks reasonable overall. Gonna have to wait and see how things change during the year before I can really judge the new system.
p.s.: please fix the typo 04 (05) Kasumir Ishikawa

TTHopeful
01-01-2018, 03:54 PM
Can someone please translate rains post i cant read it

DattJesicht
01-01-2018, 04:56 PM
I'm on it translating Dima's statement

TTHopeful
01-01-2018, 05:02 PM
I'm on it translating Dima's statement

Thank you

DattJesicht
01-01-2018, 05:31 PM
Here it is, Dima's statement from rains post:

"Thanks a lot to everyone and also generally for all the wishes and congratulations. I cannot answer to each one individually but I have quoted some of them and my answers also count for all the others.

I was very tense/nervous going into the Grand Finals and with Koki Niwa I had to play a very unconventional opponent. His unpredictable style is hard for me to deal with, as well as for many other players.

The fact that I lost Sets 1 and 3 after having gamepoints didn't make things easier for me. Luckily, I managed to stay calm and focus on each point individually.

Many people talk to me about my mental strength and that other players are more talented, by means of they have a better feeling for the ball. This is totally correct. In my opinion however, mental strength, (practice-)persistence and a strong body that is not injury-prone are talents just as the feeling for the ball. Waldner and Ma Long are maybe the only players that combine/-d all of those attributes.

The mental aspect of the game, especially in TT where you have to perform fine motor strokes is immense. The difference between becoming the olympic champion and getting eliminated in the quarter finals, or being the number 1 or number 6 in the world is extremely fine and can be decided by just one point.

With good self-confidence players were able to play 15-5 stats in the German bundesliga and becoming number 20 in the WR - without self-confidence they play 3-17 stats and are rank 100 with the same amount of practice.

Since I play TT, thus since 20 years, my father (who is my coach from the first day up unitl now) tried to keep the mental intensity of my practice sessions as high as possible, which is why I felt less mental pressure during competitions. He always told me that if give each practice session 100% of what you got, physically and mentalle, you don't need to have any regrets if you lose in a competition. I think this is the reason why I play well in close situations.

The fact that I am WR #1 from january on feels unreal. But I am incredibly proud and happy.

It has been an incredible year for me with 44-4 stats in international tournaments.

Of course, many people think that Ma Long deserves this position [#1 WR] a lot more than I do, because he is better. No doubt, Ma Long is the best player in the World and I am in no position to compare myself to him. However, he did not play a lot this year and FZD and XX performed worse than me on 8 tournaments this year. I also think that Murray and Djokovic are a lot better than their current WR rank as well. However, the systems are what they are, and I am simply happy to have played such an incredible year 2017 and to be WR #1 in January. I think it will be good for the sport of TT.

Greetings from St. Petersburg, Dima"



Second screenshot:

Guy asks:
"Why have you decided not to play the Hungarian Open in january 2018?
Is it because of the new WR-system?"
The rest is just some speculation/calculation that is really irrelevant in this context.

Dima responds:
"If i had not made WR #1, I would've played the Hungarian Open.

However, I have enough points, to remain WR #1 for to months now.

I will be on vacation untill january 7th and start an intense training period after that to be able to perform well at WTC, German and Qatar Open.

I will be answering more in the following days. Dima"

rainneverever
01-02-2018, 02:45 AM
Here are some interesting stats of WR top 10's singles performance in 2017 from ITTF website. I suppose the total matches include all the matches that give them ranking points (the final ranking takes the best 8 results)
http://results.ittf.link/index.php?option=com_fabrik&view=list&listid=84&Itemid=228

Player (ITTF ID) 2017 Singles Wins/Total matches (Wins %)
OVTCHAROV Dimitrij (107028) 36/39(92%)
FAN Zhendong (121404) 29/35(83%)
BOLL Timo (101222) 30/35(86%)
LIN Gaoyuan (115910) 32/39(82%)
XU Xin (110267) 18/22(82%)
NIWA Koki (110729) 23/38(61%)
MA Long (105649) 19/21(90%)
WONG Chun Ting (112620) 11/21(52%)
GAUZY Simon (112062) 22/34(65%)
MATSUDAIRA Kenta (105926) 16/27(59%)

Only Dima and ML won over 90% of the matches. WCT played the exact same number of matches as ML did, 11 wins out 21 vs 19 wins out of 21. WCT played more tournaments than ML and got worse results than ML on average while they have the exact same ranking points now.

UpSideDownCarl
01-02-2018, 02:54 AM
Here are some interesting stats of WR top 10's singles performance in 2017 from ITTF website. I suppose the total matches include all the matches that give them ranking points (the final ranking takes the best 8 results)
http://results.ittf.link/index.php?option=com_fabrik&view=list&listid=84&Itemid=228

Player (ITTF ID) 2017 Singles Wins/Total matches (Wins %)
OVTCHAROV Dimitrij (107028) 36/39(92%)
FAN Zhendong (121404) 29/35(83%)
BOLL Timo (101222) 30/35(86%)
LIN Gaoyuan (115910) 32/39(82%)
XU Xin (110267) 18/22(82%)
NIWA Koki (110729) 23/38(61%)
MA Long (105649) 19/21(90%)
WONG Chun Ting (112620) 11/21(52%)
GAUZY Simon (112062) 22/34(65%)
MATSUDAIRA Kenta (105926) 16/27(59%)

Only Dima and ML won over 90% of the matches. WCT played the exact same number of matches as ML did, 11 wins out 21 vs 19 wins out of 21. WCT played more tournaments than ML and got worse results than ML on average while they have the exact same ranking points now.

Can you give the stats for WTC and ML for the last 6 months? What do they look like?

rainneverever
01-02-2018, 03:19 AM
Can you give the stats for WTC and ML for the last 6 months? What do they look like?

Here are all the results of WCT, ML and XX (he played 22 matches in the whole year of 2017, just one more match than WCT and ML, so I added him in comparison). The ranking points with * are NOT included in the best 8 results for WR. Events after China Open were held in the last 6 months: WCT played 4 events, R32 (excluded)/QF/R32(excluded)/QF; ML played 1 event, 3rd place; XX played 3 events, QF/winner/QF. But as the new ranking takes 8 best results of last 12 months (WTTC and WTTTC for 2 years), I don't think it makes much sense to look at the performance of the last 6 months.


WCT




Events
Ranking Points
Results


2016 WTTC Team
2000
Team


2017 Qatar Open
1350
Rnd of 16


2017 ATTC
1080
Rnd of 16


2017 ATTC Team
320*
Team


2017 WTTC
2100
QF


2017 Japan Open
1350
Rnd of 16


2017 China Open
1800
SF


2017 Austrian Open
563*
Rnd of 32 (Seeded lost 1st match)


2017 German Open
1575
QF


2017 Swedish Open
450*
Rnd of 32 (Seeded lost 1st match)


2017 Grand Finals
1785
QF







ML




Events
Ranking Points
Results


2016 WTTC Team
1250
Team


2017 Qatar Open
2250
Winner


2017 ATTC
900
Rnd of 32


2017 ATTC Team
540*
Team


2017 WTTC
3000
Winner


2017 Japan Open
2250
Winner


2017 China Open
1350
Rnd of 16


2017 World Cup
2040
3rd Place


XX




Events
Ranking Points
Results


2016 WTTC Team
1750
Team


2017 Qatar Open
1350
Rnd of 16


2017 ATTC
1260*
QF


2017 ATTC Team
360*
Team


2017 WTTC
2400
SF


2017 Japan Open
1800
SF


2017 China Open
1350
Rnd of 16


2017 German Open
1575
QF


2017 Swedish Open
1800
Winner


2017 Grand Finals
1785
QF

UpSideDownCarl
01-02-2018, 06:57 AM
Here are all the results of WCT, ML and XX (he played 22 matches in the whole year of 2017, just one more match than WCT and ML, so I added him in comparison). The ranking points with * are NOT included in the best 8 results for WR. Events after China Open were held in the last 6 months: WCT played 4 events, R32 (excluded)/QF/R32(excluded)/QF; ML played 1 event, 3rd place; XX played 3 events, QF/winner/QF. But as the new ranking takes 8 best results of last 12 months (WTTC and WTTTC for 2 years), I don't think it makes much sense to look at the performance of the last 6 months.


WCT




Events
Ranking Points
Results







2017 China Open
1800
SF


2017 Austrian Open
563*
Rnd of 32 (Seeded lost 1st match)


2017 German Open
1575
QF


2017 Swedish Open
450*
Rnd of 32 (Seeded lost 1st match)


2017 Grand Finals
1785
QF







ML




Events
Ranking Points
Results







2017 China Open
1350
Rnd of 16


2017 World Cup
2040
3rd Place









Since you did not actually give results for the last 6 months for ML and WTC, here, I will cut them:

In your list, the results for ML since June are:

1) his withdrawal from China Open in the round of 16
2) 3rd place at the World Cup

END OF STORY. Two events in your list in the last 6 months.

WTC in the last 6 months has more results; he is in 5 tournaments rather than 2 and in the only tournament they were both in, WTC finished higher than ML. It was because ML withdrew. But WTC still finished higher in that tournament.

You were doing what is called cherry picking facts to make it look like the stats are on your side; in other words, you are trying to manipulate the facts. But in the last 6 months, ML has almost no results to look at.

TTHopeful
01-02-2018, 07:09 AM
If Ma Long plays the next 3 big tournaments and wins them he will go back to number 1 so all will be fine ;)

TTHopeful
01-02-2018, 10:45 AM
I just looked at the full list now, zjk at 54!!

Matt Hetherington
01-02-2018, 10:49 AM
I think it's going to take at least 3-4 months before we start seeing if this system has any potential to accurately represent who should be in what places. Right now the system is flooded with world ranked players. Once the inactive players come out of the system it will narrow down and become more precise.

Also those players who ended up ranked lower are likely to attend a few more world tour events to try and improve their position. All in all I have a lot of opinions about the new system which I won't get into but I'm going to refrain from laying judgement until it has had a chance to settle in.

*EDIT* Apparently players will stay in the system for 12 months, so it could take a little longer to re-adjust.

rainneverever
01-02-2018, 11:28 AM
Carl, you asked the results of last 6 months and I listed "WCT played 4 events, R32 (excluded)/QF/R32(excluded)/QF; ML played 1 event, 3rd place; XX played 3 events, QF/winner/QF. " China Open 2017 was in late June, and I said events AFTER China Open were counted in the results of 6 months (the first one Australian Open July 4-7).
Could you please read before you wrote post??? And how did I cherry picking when I listed all the facts? Do you know what is cherry picking?


Since you did not actually give results for the last 6 months for ML and WTC, here, I will cut them:

In your list, the results for ML since June are:

1) his withdrawal from China Open in the round of 16
2) 3rd place at the World Cup

END OF STORY. Two events in your list in the last 6 months.

WTC in the last 6 months has more results; he is in 5 tournaments rather than 2 and in the only tournament they were both in, WTC finished higher than ML. It was because ML withdrew. But WTC still finished higher in that tournament.

You were doing what is called cherry picking facts to make it look like the stats are on your side; in other words, you are trying to manipulate the facts. But in the last 6 months, ML has almost no results to look at.

UpSideDownCarl
01-02-2018, 11:52 AM
Carl, you asked the results of last 6 months and I listed "WCT played 4 events, R32 (excluded)/QF/R32(excluded)/QF; ML played 1 event, 3rd place; XX played 3 events, QF/winner/QF. " China Open 2017 was in late June, and I said events AFTER China Open were counted in the results of 6 months (the first one Australian Open July 4-7).
Could you please read before you wrote post??? And how did I cherry picking when I listed all the facts? Do you know what is cherry picking?

Yep. I know what cherry picking is. And you like to do it. That is why you added XX into the list and why you listed lots more than the last 6 months.

rainneverever
01-02-2018, 12:06 PM
I listed all results from ITTF website of Jan 2018 ranking because that's how the new ranking works. Do you really understand the rule of new ranking?
I don't quite get your logic. You asked the results of last 6 months (do you know last 6 months means July 2017-Dec 2017?) and I listed what you asked and said it did not make much sense to look at the results of last 6 months because the new ranking takes the results of last 12 months. Then you said I cherry picked and you did by yourself by adding China Open (June 2017) to the results of last 6 months...


Yep. I know what cherry picking is. And you like to do it. That is why you added XX into the list and why you listed lots more than the last 6 months.

UpSideDownCarl
01-02-2018, 12:31 PM
I listed all results from ITTF website of Jan 2018 ranking because that's how the new ranking works. Do you really understand the rule of new ranking?
I don't quite get your logic. You asked the results of last 6 months (do you know last 6 months means July 2017-Dec 2017?) and I listed what you asked and said it did not make much sense to look at the results of last 6 months because the new ranking takes the results of last 12 months. Then you said I cherry picked and you did by yourself by adding China Open (June 2017) to the results of last 6 months...

Yep. I added China Open and gave ML 2 results instead of 1. My logic behind the last 6 months, having nothing to do with the ranking system, was to show that ML did not play very much in the second half of the year. Even if you add the results in June, he has very close to nothing.

And as far as I am concerned, there is no reason to worry about the new world ranking system for quite a while.

But it is true, in hiding the last 6 months of ML's results behind a chart with ML, XX and WCT, you were obscuring facts rather than cherry picking results. Still, you like to do both. :)

Wetwork_Orange
01-02-2018, 12:44 PM
ITTF needs to follow the ATP/WTA rankings. They're accurate and correlate well with number of tournaments played and players actual skill.

ping fun
01-02-2018, 02:06 PM
Timo boll's new update in FB . He told how he think about new ranking :D

15099

yoass
01-02-2018, 02:09 PM
Two events in your list in the last 6 months.

"Severe punishment". I keep hearing the ring of these cruel words.

Baal
01-02-2018, 02:55 PM
Ding Ning 21? This joke is not funny.

jawien
01-02-2018, 03:08 PM
Ding Ning 21? This joke is not funny.

For now yes, but after a while it should normalize. I guess the power houses of tt will make sure to have 8 WT being played by their best players and everything should be fine.

We already had a deep discussion about it in another thread ("Dima number 1 ..." something like that). Although Tom'sTableTennis had in my opinion, a valid concern how this system will affect lower ranked players who don't have enough time or money to participate even in 6 tournaments a year ...

TTFrenzy
01-02-2018, 03:37 PM
the new ranking system will eventually balance and the pointless nagging will stop. I dont see any unfair treatment, and forcing players to attend pro tours is a good thing. Its only ''unfair'' for those who cant afford it but, they couldnt afford it anyway.

As ridiculous as it sounds if ding ning is #21 it was also ridiculous to have kreanga inactive in top 20 or crisan in top 30 just or any other guy who does not play yet he keep his ranking. in grand slam tours nothing will change all the countries and players will find out the formula needed to have a good seeding. which if course does not matter as we all saw many surprises but it gives the favorite a psychological relief of knowing that they wont meet strong opponents early

TTHopeful
01-02-2018, 06:13 PM
Timo boll's new update in FB . He told how he think about new ranking :D

15099

Timo not happy he needs to play more events

NextLevel
01-02-2018, 07:17 PM
Timo not happy he needs to play more events

T2APAC helped him a lot.

WorkerBee
01-02-2018, 07:26 PM
There needs to be a way to merge the China Super League results with the ITTF results. Chinese players are killing themselves at a world level, it should count for something. Other serious national leagues should count for something, at least as approved sub-leagues. Personally, I'd like to see the regions in China treated exactly like national associations in ITTF, with Opens for each one. Of course that would mess up their plan to keep Japan out of their circles. (sounds like a Frank Ji project).

NextLevel
01-02-2018, 07:40 PM
There needs to be a way to merge the China Super League results with the ITTF results. Chinese players are killing themselves at a world level, it should count for something. Other serious national leagues should count for something, at least as approved sub-leagues. Personally, I'd like to see the regions in China treated exactly like national associations in ITTF, with Opens for each one. Of course that would mess up their plan to keep Japan out of their circles. (sounds like a Frank Ji project).

That's not how professional tours are built, that is how rating systems for performance measurement are built and the goals are different. Anyone can track player strength by putting results into Ratings central. But what we don't want to see on a tour are how strong the players are - what we want to see are the best players playing regularly and being compensated for it.

rainneverever
01-02-2018, 07:50 PM
Yep. I added China Open and gave ML 2 results instead of 1. My logic behind the last 6 months, having nothing to do with the ranking system, was to show that ML did not play very much in the second half of the year. Even if you add the results in June, he has very close to nothing.

And as far as I am concerned, there is no reason to worry about the new world ranking system for quite a while.

But it is true, in hiding the last 6 months of ML's results behind a chart with ML, XX and WCT, you were obscuring facts rather than cherry picking results. Still, you like to do both. :)

Carl, in China and US, we consider June the FIRST half of the year, not the SECOND half. And the last SIX months of a year (when the conversation started on Jan 1) are July to Dec. Maybe your country uses a different calendar; that's OK. Do you realize 2017 WTTC and Japan Open were also in June when you said "Even if you add the results in June, he (ML) has very close to nothing." Please correct your statement to "the last 6.5 months" or "add the results in late June" before accusing me of "cherry picking" (still no idea of cherry picking what...)


When I first put the numbers of 2017 singles wins/win % of Top 10, I did not even try to draw any conclusions (which I will in the next paragraph). As you asked about the results of last SIX months of WCT and ML, I listed WCT 4 events (R32/QF/R32/QF) and ML 1 event (3rd place). I added XX in comparison because these 3 played the least among TOP 10 and XX just played 1 more match than WCT and ML. Then you jumped on China Open/the last 6.5 months/late June thing... Well, fine, WCT did better than ML in China Open 6.5 months ago in "late June" (SF vs R16); but 3rd place in World Cup is no worse than R32/QF/R32/QF. To be frank, it won't help your argument if you add the results of whole June (the last 7 months) because ML was winner/winner of WTTC and Japan Open and WCT QF/R16.


Now let me discuss what the 2017 singles win/wins% tell, combined with 2017 results for WR. (1) Players do not have to win a lot to get higher rank. WCT did the worst among top 10, only 11 wins out of 21 and 52%, worse than #9 Simon Gauzy 22/34(65%) (whose results of last SIX months: runner-up/R32/SF/4th place/R16/R16) and #10 Kenta Matsudaira 16/27(59%) (whose results of last SIX months:QF/R16/runner-up/QF/R16/QF/R16). (2) Players do not have to play a lot to get higher rank. XX played only 22 matches and got ranked higher than #6 Koki Niwa who played 38 matches. ML's rank is an outlier here because he has only 7 eligible results (one does not need to play a lot but has to play enough for 8 eligible results). If he had attended German Open or Swedish Open, he would get 563 or 450 points just walking over the 1st round. He did not need to win and did not even need to play to become higher ranked than Koki Niwa and WCT. That's the real caveat of the new ranking system. The point gaps between results are too small; the system does not reward better results.

NextLevel
01-02-2018, 08:22 PM
Timo Boll would have been world ranked 47 or something had this system been implemented in January. He is now world ranked #3. He played more this year than he ever has. Why isn't anyone discussing that? Why are we all focused on Ma Long who played less this year than he could have, low enough to miss the Grand Tour finals which he is the record holding winner of?

Tony's Table Tennis
01-02-2018, 08:42 PM
Now let me discuss what the 2017 singles win/wins% tell, combined with 2017 results for WR. (1) Players do not have to win a lot to get higher rank. WCT did the worst among top 10, only 11 wins out of 21 and 52%, worse than #9 Simon Gauzy 22/34(65%) (whose results of last SIX months: runner-up/R32/SF/4th place/R16/R16) and #10 Kenta Matsudaira 16/27(59%) (whose results of last SIX months:QF/R16/runner-up/QF/R16/QF/R16). (2) Players do not have to play a lot to get higher rank. XX played only 22 matches and got ranked higher than #6 Koki Niwa who played 38 matches. ML's rank is an outlier here because he has only 7 eligible results (one does not need to play a lot but has to play enough for 8 eligible results). If he had attended German Open or Swedish Open, he would get 563 or 450 points just walking over the 1st round. He did not need to win and did not even need to play to become higher ranked than Koki Niwa and WCT. That's the real caveat of the new ranking system. The point gaps between results are too small; the system does not reward better results.

I agree ITTF looser point ratio is way too high
How can one loose and get 90% of the point for loosing, where winner gets 100%
then 90 vs 80
then 80 vs 70 etc

If it is say 100 vs 60 then I would say is fair
or maybe max 100% vs 75%

PS, ITTF don't reward prize money 100 vs 90, why they think it is the correct formula in points then?

UpSideDownCarl
01-02-2018, 09:09 PM
See, rain, here, in its essence is the problem. You are still arguing for ML being the best.

Nobody is arguing that.

To correct my data, since that is what you want, as you said, the only tournament ML played in the last 6 months of 2017 that counts towards world ranking was the World Cup.

That statement alone makes my point. In 6 months ML played one tournament that ITTF will count.

I don’t think anyone doubts who the best player in the world is. And how long it takes ML to take back the number 1 spot is entirely dependent on when he is able to attend enough events.

If ML attended 7 events in 2017, 6 of them were in the first 6 months.

Circumstances that were beyond ML’s control prevented him from attending events after the China Open.

I stand by the fact that ML did the right thing by withdrawing from the China Open to protest what happened to LGL. I don’t think he should have been punished. But he was and he also got injured. Two unfortunate circumstances, both of which caused him not to participate in enough tournaments to have the ranking he soon will regain.

My point about WCT getting more points than ML in China Open had nothing to do with him being better. If ML did not protest and withdraw, he probably would have won.

But he didn’t. And his standing up for the honor of LGL and an injury caused him not to play enough in the 2nd half of 2017, in ITTF events to have a higher WR.

And the whole point of this is: you guys who are complaining about the system: JUST GIVE IT A CHANCE FOR A FEW MONTHS. Then we will be better able to see how the system actually works.

The guys who play and do well will rise back to the top. And if someone is inactive for that long, to me it makes sense if their WR drops, even if WR does not represent the players actual abilities.

This stuff just doesn’t seem worth arguing about. Especially with people who don’t understand what they are arguing for or against and just want the better players to be at the top.

Who cares. When ML and FZD play each other in the finals of tournament after tournament, they will very soon be #1 and #2 again.

But I honestly think there is something unfortunate about the fact that there is nobody even close to as good as those two.

For now, the top players JUST have not played enough over the last 6 months for their ranking to reflect anything much different than the new system has.

Let’s just wait and see what happens when the CNT players are playing regularly before judging the new system.

Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

UpSideDownCarl
01-02-2018, 09:23 PM
Based on what ZJK has done over the past year, I think his new rating is about what it should be too. Even if, ZJK playing at a decent level is much better than his WR. He just did not show it over the year.

Whereas, ML was by far the best player for the 1st 6 months of 2017. In the 2nd half of the year circumstances forced him not to play. So there really wasn’t any performance to speak of in the 2nd half of the year.

That is all I was saying.


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

rainneverever
01-02-2018, 09:51 PM
Carl, would you read my post before you argue with me? If there is a language issue then ask me to clarify. It sounds like you don't bother to try to understand my points.
I did not say the ranking system is bad because ML is not ranked #1. Tony and I and others have discussed a lot of the new ranking system. How it fails to distinguish good and bad results and how young players ranked 300+ may not get any chance to play senior events to improve. There are real problems of the new system and it is not sth that ML not being #1. And in my last reply, I pointed out the possibility that ML can walk over to get higher rank (under old system, he will get penalty by doing so like China Open; no penalty under new system). It is not fair at all and do no good to the sports. That's why I call it caveat of the new ranking system.

NextLevel
01-02-2018, 10:04 PM
Based on what ZJK has done over the past year, I think his new rating is about what it should be too. Even if, ZJK playing at a decent level is much better than his WR. He just did not show it over the year.

Whereas, ML was by far the best player for the 1st 6 months of 2017. In the 2nd half of the year circumstances forced him not to play. So there really wasn’t any performance to speak of in the 2nd half of the year.

That is all I was saying.


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy
Again people forget when Dima was complaining about this system because it would have ranked Boll 44 in the world or something. Timo played enough to get ranked #3. Dima is not complaining about that anymore.

Now we have Ma Long fans complaining because their man cannot remain #1 playing once every 4 mths...

UpSideDownCarl
01-03-2018, 12:34 AM
Carl, would you read my post before you argue with me?

I like that you are saying this. I think you just like to argue. I’m done. You didn’t understand anything I said and are telling me I didn’t understand you. Your arguing style is really just too funny.

But I will leave it. You aren’t going to understand what I said. And you will respond with an amazing amount of unrelated verbiage that has nothing to do with what you said that made me ask you to show the results of ML and WCT for the last 6 months of the year.

But I suppose you didn’t complain that they have almost the same number of points and shouldn’t. And you didn’t present a graph with results from ML, XX and WCT for much more than the last 6 months. And you didn’t present that in a chart.

But it doesn’t matter that my simple point, when you were complaining that ML should not have almost the same number of points as WCT was that, in the last 6 months of 2017 WCT played a few more tournaments. That was my point. And I have NO IDEA what else you are arguing about. But it has nothing to do with the point I was making.


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

rainneverever
01-03-2018, 01:03 AM
Anyone who has ever taken a look at ITTF ranking website will understand my chart in post #12 immediately because I just kept the most important info from ITTF website. And anyone who understands the new ranking system will not care about the results of the last six months at the first place because it is about the last 12 months, although I still listed the results of last 6 months in post #12 to answer Carl's question in #11.

http://results.ittf.link/index.php?option=com_fabrik&view=list&listid=69&Itemid=206
Click "Details" and try to see by yourself. Count how many events players of your interest attended. Do some simple maths. If you cannot, just let it go or check out the thorough discussions done in other threads in this forum. I hope people who want to discuss or argue with me have some knowledge about the new ranking system and know why some people in this forum think the new system problematic.

UpSideDownCarl
01-03-2018, 02:51 AM
Anyone who has ever taken a look at ITTF ranking website will understand my chart in post #12 immediately because I just kept the most important info from ITTF website. And anyone who understands the new ranking system will not care about the results of the last six months at the first place because it is about the last 12 months, although I still listed the results of last 6 months in post #12 to answer Carl's question in #11.

http://results.ittf.link/index.php?option=com_fabrik&view=list&listid=69&Itemid=206
Click "Details" and try to see by yourself. Count how many events players of your interest attended. Do some simple maths. If you cannot, just let it go or check out the thorough discussions done in other threads in this forum. I hope people who want to discuss or argue with me have some knowledge about the new ranking system and know why some people in this forum think the new system problematic.

But the point was that ML did not have more points because he did not compete in enough tournaments. And the only reason he did not compete in enough tournaments is because he barely played in the last 6 months of the year.

hahahaha.

Now I am in trouble. hahahaha.

Never try to explain something simple to an irrational women who just wants to argue. How could such a simple point create so much drama.

Uh-oh.....I did it again and I am going to hear a long winded explanation with lots of statistics about something that has nothing to do with the fact that, If ML just played a few tournaments more in the second half of the year, his ranking would be completely different: why? Because he would have played more tournaments. :)

rainneverever
01-03-2018, 03:20 AM
Poor Carl, a simple unfair but practical case of a 1st round W.O. seems too hard for you to understand.

NextLevel
01-03-2018, 03:24 AM
Carl, Rainneverever,

Please you are both valuable forum members speaking past each other. Any chance for a truce?

UpSideDownCarl
01-03-2018, 03:25 AM
Carl, Rainneverever,

Please you are both valuable forum members speaking past each other. Any chance for a truce?

I agree. :)

TT Guru
01-03-2018, 05:51 AM
Hi All,

There is plenty of feedback in the Table Tennis Daily forum, and this is great. It's important however to read up on the regulations and rules of the new system before declaring certain aspects of it are impractical. No system is going to be perfect and meet the expectations of everyone. Viewing the new system from the same point of view as the old doesn't lead to satisfying conclusions because they are based on entirely different criteria.

To say Ma Long should be number one no matter what is an opinion. In my opinion he is the strongest player in the world at the moment, having won all the major titles fairly recently and maintained a consistent win rate against all opponents. The new WR takes into account a player's presence (or lack thereof) on the international stage. With Ma's absence for most of the second half of 2017 he will struggle to regain the top position. With one more win he will have a full deck of 8 results and may move up to 3rd or 4th. As the months go by his older results (most of the points he currently has) will expire and these need to be replaced as fast as they expire with equal or greater results. For this reason I believe Fan Zhendong will become number one before Ma Long has the chance. This system allows predictive analysis, so it's now easier to figure out in advance what needs to happen for a player to move up substantially. This should give us some interesting scenes before the WTTC or Olympic Games when everyone rushes to achieve the best results possible.

Give it time and the rankings will sort itself out, players will increase participation and we (the spectators) will have more great matches to enjoy. The old system actually rewarded absenteeism from international events by letting players maintain a high rank. More and more people are noticing that this new system closely resembles Tennis and other tried and true ranking systems. The reason some people (the loudest ones) are complaining is because they have disagreed with ITTF changing things in the past so they've made up their mind to stand against this without even letting it play out.

It all comes down to the fact that change makes people nervous. I was also very comfortable with how our old system worked in the past, and still say it has some merits, but this is a good move for the future of our sport. Sit back and enjoy, you may find things aren't as they seem once it has time to settle.

-ttGuru

RidTheKid
01-03-2018, 10:13 AM
I care more about who wins than any ranking. TT is a sport where many players participate but in the end Ma Long wins :)

drunix80
01-03-2018, 10:32 AM
I care more about who wins than any ranking. TT is a sport where many players participate but in the end Ma Long wins :)

Same here. A big fan of ZJK here, I am sure he will not get a chance to be #1 again. Also, little chance to win any world tour event. As long as he wins even couple of matches in world tour, it is a time to rejoice for me !! Your fav player can not remain # 1 forever. Participation has to matter somehow. Sadly, it also means many older players like Boll or Samsonov would move down the ranks quickly because they will not be able to compete so frequently as others.

rainneverever
01-03-2018, 11:55 AM
Can you address the issues discussed in this thread?
https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/showthread.php?16687-Dimitrij-Ovtcharov-The-New-World-Number-1!

1. Why the World Tour prize money and standing points differ so much between results (winner gets 1.4x - 2x of loser) while new ranking points differ so little (winner only gets 1.1x - 1.2x of loser)? For tennis, winner gets 1.4-1.7x points and 1.7x-2x prize money of loser.
2. How can a young player ranked 300+ be able to improve his/her ranking under new system? There is no way for them to boost ranking by upsetting higher ranked players occasionally and they do not have much chance to enter a tournament because of their low ranking.



Give it time and the rankings will sort itself out, players will increase participation and we (the spectators) will have more great matches to enjoy. The old system actually rewarded absenteeism from international events by letting players maintain a high rank. More and more people are noticing that this new system closely resembles Tennis and other tried and true ranking systems. The reason some people (the loudest ones) are complaining is because they have disagreed with ITTF changing things in the past so they've made up their mind to stand against this without even letting it play out.

It all comes down to the fact that change makes people nervous. I was also very comfortable with how our old system worked in the past, and still say it has some merits, but this is a good move for the future of our sport. Sit back and enjoy, you may find things aren't as they seem once it has time to settle.

-ttGuru

Michal_Z
01-03-2018, 12:07 PM
Ding Ning 21? This joke is not funny.

Add to that, Liu Shiwen WR 24 now ;)

yoass
01-04-2018, 10:19 AM
Never try to explain something simple to an irrational women who just wants to argue. How could such a simple point create so much drama.

I've been reading this a few times, let it simmer for a while, then returned to it only to find that I find it disturbing, still.

I don't think it's proper to castigate discussion partners like this, dismissing them by conjuring a buch of (imho) sexist stereotypes.

For what it's worth, i didn't and still don't consider Rain to be irrational, or her arguments callously contrived to pick fights for fight's sake. Yes, I think she's stubborn in trying to get her point made, whereas Carl is trying to make a different point. In a discussion, nobody has a supreme topical monopoly, so that's all par for the course, and I often value Rain's insights and tenacity in discussions highly. I also value Carl's contribution highly, but still don't like what I'm seeing here.

jawien
01-04-2018, 11:55 AM
I've been reading this a few times, let it simmer for a while, then returned to it only to find that I find it disturbing, still [...]


I agree. :)

Yeah Carl, you are the "Super Moderator" ... :-p Just be a little more gracious host ... : )

I wish Rain and Tom would explain in more details, if possible, how the system can affect those young players?

; ))

Atas Newton
01-04-2018, 01:03 PM
Can you address the issues discussed in this thread?
https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/showthread.php?16687-Dimitrij-Ovtcharov-The-New-World-Number-1!

1. Why the World Tour prize money and standing points differ so much between results (winner gets 1.4x - 2x of loser) while new ranking points differ so little (winner only gets 1.1x - 1.2x of loser)? For tennis, winner gets 1.4-1.7x points and 1.7x-2x prize money of loser.
yeah, this I'm not happy with. I would much rather an ELO type system when attributing ranking points.

NextLevel
01-04-2018, 01:49 PM
Yeah Carl, you are the "Super Moderator" ... :-p Just be a little more gracious host ... : )

I wish Rain and Tom would explain in more details, if possible, how the system can affect those young players?

; ))

In an ELO system, all that matters is your strength is measured by who you play against. So if a 12 year old plays anyone in any event, his strength is measured.

In the tennis system, all that matters is how many ranking points you have accumulated. So even if you are playing level wise the best player in the world, unless you have played the events and accumulated the points through play, you will never get the rating. While in an ELO system, you could theoretically get the rating by beating top players in a few events. So you get juniors getting quickly ranked higher without quite having to do the kind of work to establish themselves that they would have to do in a tennis points system.

The same thing happens in tennis all the time. You play on the tour that you get points for - you get ranked as an ATP member when you play on the ATP or ITF. You play challenger events to get ranked on the ATP or ITF but juniors and junior events are ranked separately. My guess is that the ITTF challenger circuit will expand over time to give people more events to play. But juniors don't get ITTF tour ranking points for playing in junior tour events like they do today.

For building a professional tour, this could actually be a *great* thing. But I will let others voice their complaints before voicing my thoughts. You have to think through what a professional tour needs, and step a bit away from measuring *Strength* as your goal.

UpSideDownCarl
01-04-2018, 02:35 PM
I've been reading this a few times, let it simmer for a while, then returned to it only to find that I find it disturbing, still.

I don't think it's proper to castigate discussion partners like this, dismissing them by conjuring a buch of (imho) sexist stereotypes.

For what it's worth, i didn't and still don't consider Rain to be irrational, or her arguments callously contrived to pick fights for fight's sake. Yes, I think she's stubborn in trying to get her point made, whereas Carl is trying to make a different point. In a discussion, nobody has a supreme topical monopoly, so that's all par for the course, and I often value Rain's insights and tenacity in discussions highly. I also value Carl's contribution highly, but still don't like what I'm seeing here.

Fair enough. It is true. Rain was not understanding the point I was trying to make. And I was not concerned with the point that people who enter a tournament and lose in the first round probably get more points awarded to them than they should.

But you are right. I did not need to make that comment. I could have simply made my point very simply.

When ML and all the top players play enough tournaments with their standard results, the system will show the best players to be the top players. Right now the system is not showing that because of what the Chinese government did to the top CNT players for protesting LGL's dismissal in the China Open. The reason the CNT players have the rankings they have is largely because they were not able to attend enough tournaments. And that happened due to a situation that was out of the control of the players.

So we shouldn't base how we feel about the new ranking system on results that were affected by an anomaly that had very little to do with what would happen in a normal TT year. If the top CNT players are allowed to play in events, their rankings will rise to the top fairly quickly. The players from other countries who really deserve to be in the top 10 and top 20 will also get there.

And players who don't play enough events, will have a ranking that reflects their participation or lack of participation, rather than their level.

Thanks yoass. I appreciate your comment.

JST
01-04-2018, 02:37 PM
My understanding is that ITTF hoped to have ELO based system for world ranking and separate "ATP like" system for World Tour. Unfortunately (or luckily) ITTF World tour has far to dominance of ATP tour in tennis (there are basically almost no respected competitions on international level in tennis outside ATP while in TT you have many very good national leagues + events like T2APAC + Champions League etc.) so the incentive to participate and have some Seamaster branded tour points in the end of the season isn't enough to make all the stars appearing regularly (and pushing TT forward - at least in ITTFs' eyes). So they probably had this plan B (and most likely difficult decision for many of officials) to disband current World ranking system and fomr new one which would be copy what ATP and ITTF World Tour do today.

rainneverever
01-04-2018, 03:02 PM
https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/showthread.php?16687-Dimitrij-Ovtcharov-The-New-World-Number-1!/page6
Starting from #106, we discussed the possibility of lower ranked players playing a tour event and possible solutions.
CNT wanted to send Wang Chuqin and Yu Ziyang to play Hungarian Open this Jan. Dec 2017 ranking under new ranking system is used for seeding at Hungarian Open,Wang Chuqin is ranked #387 (#104 under old ranking) and Yu Ziyang #387 (#72 under old ranking). Since there is an upper limit of the number of players in a world tour (290 for Hungarian Open, male + female), they have little chance to participate. Similar situation for other countries. Sweden's Truls Moregard is ranked #166 under old system and #889 under new system Dec 2017. Most likely he will not be able to play any senior World Tour events in 2018 and not likely to improve his senior world ranking. Best solution may be staying in junior world.




I wish Rain and Tom would explain in more details, if possible, how the system can affect those young players?
; ))

TTFrenzy
01-04-2018, 03:05 PM
Fair enough. It is true. Rain was not understanding the point I was trying to make. And I was not concerned with the point that people who enter a tournament and lose in the first round probably get more points awarded to them than they should.

But you are right. I did not need to make that comment. I could have simply made my point very simply.

When ML and all the top players play enough tournaments with their standard results, the system will show the best players to be the top players. Right now the system is not showing that because of what the Chinese government did to the top CNT players for protesting LGL's dismissal in the China Open. The reason the CNT players have the rankings they have is largely because they were not able to attend enough tournaments. And that happened due to a situation that was out of the control of the players.

So we shouldn't base how we feel about the new ranking system on results that were affected by an anomaly that had very little to do with what would happen in a normal TT year. If the top CNT players are allowed to play in events, their rankings will rise to the top fairly quickly. The players from other countries who really deserve to be in the top 10 and top 20 will also get there.

And players who don't play enough events, will have a ranking that reflects their participation or lack of participation, rather than their level.

Thanks yoass. I appreciate your comment.

spot on carl!

TTFrenzy
01-04-2018, 03:07 PM
Timo Boll would have been world ranked 47 or something had this system been implemented in January. He is now world ranked #3. He played more this year than he ever has. Why isn't anyone discussing that? Why are we all focused on Ma Long who played less this year than he could have, low enough to miss the Grand Tour finals which he is the record holding winner of?

because ma long is a fairy? or the pope. or both

p.s. also im not focused on ma long, Im excited that dima and boll manage to beat the chinese and cant wait for the next event to see the clash. The japs are also very close and I hope hirano keeps improving

UpSideDownCarl
01-04-2018, 05:25 PM
because ma long is a fairy? or the pope. or both

p.s. also im not focused on ma long, Im excited that dima and boll manage to beat the chinese and cant wait for the next event to see the clash. The japs are also very close and I hope hirano keeps improving

Yep. The fact that Timo Boll managed to beat Ma Long and Lin Gaoyan in the World Cup--regardless of whether ML was injured or not playing well--the fact that the finals of the World Cup was Dima vs Timo, was interesting, and an enjoyable change of pace.

The circumstances that led to that happening, the turmoil for the CNT, is not as enjoyable. It would have meant much more if everyone was in top form when that happened. But still, I cannot think of a tournament where there were two CNT players and neither of them got to the finals, in a very long time.

Tony's Table Tennis
01-04-2018, 07:41 PM
Can you address the issues discussed in this thread?
https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/showthread.php?16687-Dimitrij-Ovtcharov-The-New-World-Number-1!

1. Why the World Tour prize money and standing points differ so much between results (winner gets 1.4x - 2x of loser) while new ranking points differ so little (winner only gets 1.1x - 1.2x of loser)? For tennis, winner gets 1.4-1.7x points and 1.7x-2x prize money of loser.
2. How can a young player ranked 300+ be able to improve his/her ranking under new system? There is no way for them to boost ranking by upsetting higher ranked players occasionally and they do not have much chance to enter a tournament because of their low ranking.

Looser point ratio must be adjusted
and for weaker player beating higher ranked player MUST deserve "bonus ranking point"

So many of TTD members fans love how no name players beat your Ma Longs and Zhang Jike
other than instant fame, the player gets awarded a lot of points on the previous system, but not any more..... this isn't fair

Tony's Table Tennis
01-04-2018, 07:53 PM
I wish Rain and Tom would explain in more details, if possible, how the system can affect those young players?

; ))

Old system:
unranked (no points) junior can play and get a lot of points for beating high ranked players - this happened a few times already
These extra points help speed up such juniors world ranking and therefore starts making a career for themselves and start to earn some form of seeding.

Don't underestimate seeding, as seeding does allow easier access to another round (more points)

IMO for breaking a seeding list (earn points), upsets must occur and player to deserve more points and to "average" out the winner/looser points

Junior ranking points and senior ranking points was together. So a top junior could earn enough points to take part in the senior category and have "good seeding" due to results in the past

New system:
- There is no more "tricks" for the junior player to win extra points
- As per rain's example - limitation to "highest ranked x amount" of players per world tours. So meaning, if you are good enough, but ranked outside - you are not allowed to take part
- junior ranking and senior is separate, so you can be number 1 junior for years, but you might not be able to take part in the senior platinum tours as you have no ranking. Cat and mouse issue

only solutions is for junior to take part in your lower end tours and earn peanuts points and start to accumulate points to better than world top 300, to stand a chance to be allowed to play in your top tours

we all know, you need the top tours (platinum) to give you ranking
ranking gives you olympic rights!!

zoomtt
01-04-2018, 08:26 PM
An interesting consequence of the new ranking system is how some medium-level players have improved a looooot their ranking position because of having good regional results. Some of them have almost 300 positions less than in December 2017!!

Check the list of the most improved players that have reached the top 200:

15106
15107
Just in case you are curious, the stats come from our WR page (https://tabletennisworldranking.com).

NextLevel
01-04-2018, 08:29 PM
An interesting consequence of the new ranking system is how some medium-level players have improved a looooot their ranking position because of having good regional results. Some of them have almost 300 positions less than in December 2017!!

Check the list of the most improved players that have reached the top 200:

15106
15107
Just in case you are curious, the stats come from our WR page (https://tabletennisworldranking.com).

Yes, I Was wondering when this would come up.


The ITTF tour has to undergo major changes to support this new ranking system and the ranking system may need to be tweaked with time as well.

Tony's Table Tennis
01-04-2018, 08:59 PM
An interesting consequence of the new ranking system is how some medium-level players have improved a looooot their ranking position because of having good regional results. Some of them have almost 300 positions less than in December 2017!!

Check the list of the most improved players that have reached the top 200:

15106
15107
Just in case you are curious, the stats come from our WR page (https://tabletennisworldranking.com).

Yep
few of my friends all have record breaking world rankings
funny thing is, a player inside top 20 never ever beaten a player inside the top 20 in the world
another one who made it to top 100 has never beaten a top 100 player before

I guess now, a top 20, top 100 doesn't mean much about players skills

rainneverever
01-04-2018, 09:55 PM
Hi ZoomTT, did you notice some biiiiig drop of WR? Could you do a similar gragh?

I've used Sweden's Truls Moregard as an example in previous discussion. He was #166 in Dec 2017 and #944 in Jan 2018. Almost 780 position lower. Another case is Niu Guankai, #99 in Dec 2017 and #1048 in Jan 2018. Almost 950 position lower. I wonder who has actually dropped more than them.



An interesting consequence of the new ranking system is how some medium-level players have improved a looooot their ranking position because of having good regional results. Some of them have almost 300 positions less than in December 2017!!

Check the list of the most improved players that have reached the top 200:

Just in case you are curious, the stats come from our WR page (https://tabletennisworldranking.com).

TTFrenzy
01-04-2018, 10:40 PM
Yep. The fact that Timo Boll managed to beat Ma Long and Lin Gaoyan in the World Cup--regardless of whether ML was injured or not playing well--the fact that the finals of the World Cup was Dima vs Timo, was interesting, and an enjoyable change of pace.

The circumstances that led to that happening, the turmoil for the CNT, is not as enjoyable. It would have meant much more if everyone was in top form when that happened. But still, I cannot think of a tournament where there were two CNT players and neither of them got to the finals, in a very long time.


indeed the sacking of LGL had some drawbacks but fzd vs ovtcharov on german open was brutal nonetheless and I dont think fzd would have won for sure if he had LGL on his side. dima was phenomenal and even in the grand finals that 4-0 on fzd's favor is extremely misleading. I seriously believe that the world has many chances against LGY and FZD right now as the first one still chokes and the 2nd one is not a versatile player and still monotonous

I was very excited to see a feroscious dima because I thought he would never make it on the big stage against the chinese but now it seemed like everything was were it needed to be. creativity,confidence and never backing down

Ilia Minkin
01-06-2018, 12:12 AM
A new vid


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYKJzsyve7E

rainneverever
01-22-2018, 07:57 PM
https://www.ittf.com/2018/01/22/battle-top-spot-fan-zhendong-closes-gap-dimitrij-ovtcharov/
It is funny to see this ITTF news. ITTF tries to calculate
the ranking points of Dima and FZD and expect Dima to remain WR #1 in Mar (he will be #1 in Feb). What makes me laugh is that ITTF made a wrong calculation. In March, Dima will have 12945+Euro Top 16 Cup(1800 winner/1620 runnerup) + 300*each win at Team World Cup or 720 whichever is higher. FZD will have 14295 +300*each win at Team World Cup or 1350 whichever is higher (say FZD has 4 wins, then 14295+1350=15645; if he has 5 wins, then 14295+1500=15795). While ITTF says FZD has 14295 in March and Dima only needs 3 wins in Team World Cup and a victory in Euro Cup to get 15648 (the sum is actually 15645) to keep WR #1.

Isn't the new WR system fool proof? Sum up 8 best results and how can ITTF itself make such stupid mistake?

drunix80
01-22-2018, 10:59 PM
ITTF is completely messed up. After reading Tony's post in another thread about breaking even financially in world tour events, I can only say this whole ranking thing is a big joke unless prize money is increased. Else you are making majority of players poorer.

To analyze the prize money issue, firstly we need to find out how much the ittf makes annually and what percentage of it actually goes to players prize money.

WorkerBee
01-23-2018, 01:48 AM
Have you read the ranking point article in the ITTF news?

https://www.ittf.com/2018/01/22/battle-top-spot-fan-zhendong-closes-gap-dimitrij-ovtcharov/

It sure is stupid and arbitrary.

jawien
01-23-2018, 05:17 AM
[...] I can only say this whole ranking thing is a big joke unless prize money is increased. Else you are making majority of players poorer.
[...]

I'm watching the Australian Open (actually listening to the radio) and guess what is the prize for the looser of the round of 128 (64 pairs)? Yes ... about 60k AUD (about 45k USD) ... I think more than the prize money of the World Cup winner.

I know, one have to consider the scale of both tournaments, tv coverage etc ... but just the pure thought of the gap between the two. How those tt players can make a living ...

J.

Tony's Table Tennis
01-23-2018, 06:35 AM
I'm watching the Australian Open (actually listening to the radio) and guess what is the prize for the looser of the round of 128 (64 pairs)? Yes ... about 60k AUD (about 45k USD) ... I think more than the prize money of the World Cup winner.

I know, one have to consider the scale of both tournaments, tv coverage etc ... but just the pure thought of the gap between the two. How those tt players can make a living ...

J.

Throughout amateur table tennis, we all know if a local table tennis tournament will have good prize money, it will draw better players who is willing to travel to the tournament

Money attracts top players.
Some how ITTF and some forum members thinks, Top players attract sponsors.....

I guess we all hope in business you first have top players then you have money
But i'm afraid in real life, money (capital) comes first, then come your top players.

Its like saying, I want to hire top employees for free and once we have money (business coming in), I will pay the employees
Sorry, real life is pay first, else they go else where to seek employment

Again, the ones fighting for number 1 slot are financially secured from table tennis - so I'm not worried about them
the others - sad.....

brodolio
01-23-2018, 07:49 AM
Wierd to see Koki Niwa above Ma Long in the ranking. Even Dima never won against ML..

I understand the logic behind that system, the ranking must be more flexible and forces player to attend more events etc.
But to me it doesn't reflect who is actually the best.

brodolio
01-23-2018, 07:58 AM
Here it is, Dima's statement from rains post:
[...]

Of course, many people think that Ma Long deserves this position [#1 WR] a lot more than I do, because he is better. No doubt, Ma Long is the best player in the World and I am in no position to compare myself to him.
[...]


Thanks for translating it!
Dima is such an humble guy.This is the right attitude for a true champion.
I think he deserves to be WR 1 for a bit, but I'm afraid soon he will loose his position :(

Tony's Table Tennis
01-23-2018, 08:10 AM
Thanks for translating it!
Dima is such an humble guy.This is the right attitude for a true champion.
I think he deserves to be WR 1 for a bit, but I'm afraid soon he will loose his position :(

I don't think so
he is at a level where he is able to beat Ma Long or FZD
And even if he looses in the final against one of them, he still has 90% of the point - which is really high
So based on this, as long As Dima makes the finals, and wins or comes number 2, it will take a long time for ML to catch up
FZD is obviously quicker to catch up.

zeio
01-23-2018, 08:23 AM
https://www.ittf.com/2018/01/22/battle-top-spot-fan-zhendong-closes-gap-dimitrij-ovtcharov/
It is funny to see this ITTF news. ITTF tries to calculate
the ranking points of Dima and FZD and expect Dima to remain WR #1 in Mar (he will be #1 in Feb). What makes me laugh is that ITTF made a wrong calculation. In March, Dima will have 12945+Euro Top 16 Cup(1800 winner/1620 runnerup) + 300*each win at Team World Cup or 720 whichever is higher. FZD will have 14295 +300*each win at Team World Cup or 1350 whichever is higher (say FZD has 4 wins, then 14295+1350=15645; if he has 5 wins, then 14295+1500=15795). While ITTF says FZD has 14295 in March and Dima only needs 3 wins in Team World Cup and a victory in Euro Cup to get 15648 (the sum is actually 15645) to keep WR #1.

Isn't the new WR system fool proof? Sum up 8 best results and how can ITTF itself make such stupid mistake?
That piece was written by Simon Daish. I guess he didn't proofread it. Anyway, the 8 in 15648 could be a typo from typing on the numpad, where the key for number 8 sits just above that for 5.

In case anyone wants to follow or bash him on his twitter (https://twitter.com/Daishinator), or on SD Sport (http://sdsport.co.uk/) site, for which he is the founder and editor.

jawien
01-24-2018, 08:23 PM
[...]
But i'm afraid in real life, money (capital) comes first, then come your top players.
[...]

Again, the ones fighting for number 1 slot are financially secured from table tennis - so I'm not worried about them
the others - sad.....

Yeah but if we take the business approach, then say we invest lots of money in the tournament, the best players will come and what is the return of investment? TT does not have as much media attention to attract bigger money/investors I'm afraid ... AO is so big and popular. I - a tt aficionado - have time to watch the AO, but would it be true otherwise ...?

TT is very technical and we love playing it, but it is not understandable to the broader audience ... so there is not much of a public interest. It's like a closed circle - don't you think?

Tony's Table Tennis
01-24-2018, 09:02 PM
Yeah but if we take the business approach, then say we invest lots of money in the tournament, the best players will come and what is the return of investment? TT does not have as much media attention to attract bigger money/investors I'm afraid ... AO is so big and popular. I - a tt aficionado - have time to watch the AO, but would it be true otherwise ...?

TT is very technical and we love playing it, but it is not understandable to the broader audience ... so there is not much of a public interest. It's like a closed circle - don't you think?

If we don't take the business approach, then we take the charity approach??

You need to know if 5 countries can do it, then why can't the other 15?

As in all sports, you only need 20 countries to really make it work.

Soccer, Basketball there is more than 20 countries
Baseball - maybe less than 20 countries
Tennis - its more individuals but about 20 countries

I guess for someone to get money and have ROI - this needs a very good business man

Same business man would do good in any corporate

jawien
01-24-2018, 10:07 PM
If we don't take the business approach, then we take the charity approach??

You need to know if 5 countries can do it, then why can't the other 15?[...]
As in all sports, you only need 20 countries to really make it work.

I guess for someone to get money and have ROI - this needs a very good business man
Same business man would do good in any corporate

Yeah, question was somewhat rhetorical, of course professional sport must "make money".
If I understand you correctly there would be like 5 countries that do well on the business level. I guess you mean China, Japan, Germany, Korea and ... ?
So the only problem with other countries is that they don't implement the business model well?


I like the current tt and I love playing it, but I really think, it is not understandable to the "regular" people. TT falls a little into the category of say fencing I believe. It looks nice, but sometimes the light goes on and you have no idea why. It is discouraging .. unless you have some familiarity or you practice the sport yourself.

rainneverever
01-24-2018, 11:10 PM
The majority of TT viewerships of major events like Rio OG and 2017 WTTC come from China. Do all those Chinese viewers play TT regularly so that they understand TT? NO. They watch because CNT players have great results. It is also true when China women's volleyball won gold at Rio OG beating defending champion Brazil and the teams they lost in group stage like Netherlands and Serbia. All Chinese got excited and volleyball was all over the place, mainstream media, social media, offices and schools. Do people play volleyball? No. Do they know the players? No. They may only know the head coach Lang Ping. Do they watch or even know volleyball leagues in China? No. And it does not matter. The viewers don't need to understand the rules, the techniques and tactics; they see the players run, jump, shout, celebrate; they see the ball going back and forth and back; they see the scores and winners; they listen to the commentators to get to learn the basic rules and players' name and records. That's enough.
China women's volleyball team used to be heroes to Chinese in 1980s, like TT team. The situation of volleyball in China before Rio is no better than TT in terms of salary of players (for example, the captain of China women's volleyball earned an annual salary of 30000USD), coverage and sponsorships of leagues (200000USD to run a team for the whole season), popularity of star players. Chinese volleyball players are good but not the best in the world; they don't have the best financial support from government and sponsors. Coach Lang Ping is really good but she still need to inspire players to play their best. They fight, they win and they make fame. Many Chinese still don't watch volleyball leagues but watch major tournament and are happy to see volleyball players and coach in commercials.
My point is that it is not only the technical details of a sport that attracts viewers. The spirits of sportsmanship, fighting for glory, national pride, or just how fast the players respond and move...... Most watch just for fun.

Tony's Table Tennis
01-25-2018, 06:00 AM
Yeah, question was somewhat rhetorical, of course professional sport must "make money".
If I understand you correctly there would be like 5 countries that do well on the business level. I guess you mean China, Japan, Germany, Korea and ... ?
So the only problem with other countries is that they don't implement the business model well?


I like the current tt and I love playing it, but I really think, it is not understandable to the "regular" people. TT falls a little into the category of say fencing I believe. It looks nice, but sometimes the light goes on and you have no idea why. It is discouraging .. unless you have some familiarity or you practice the sport yourself.

I think Rain just helped me save a lot of time to answer how to make TT welcome by the masses
Same with me - I watch international football/soccer some times (basically fifa world cup). I know some players, I know some rules, but I don't follow it as a true heart fan.
Same with Cricket and Rugby in South Africa
Some times I will follow tennis
Some times I will watch NBA, volleyball, badminton
Yes, i'm a sports person, my understanding of sport is better than the average, but I still don't know the details like a true fan.

Basically if one person has basic knowledge, then one can become a spectator.

now back to the 5 countries - it is more:
1) China - club
2) Taiwan - club
3) Japan - Club (and now a big portion olympic budget)
4) Korea - Club/national (here I am not too clued up)
5) Germany - club
6) France - club
7) Russia - club
8) India - not much knowledge but with the club in 2017 i'm impressed
9) Singapore - more T2, but i'm sure the national team also gets funding some how

I named 3 European countries that I know have good club TT structure which I know the players get paid.
I'm sure they are other countries that can be added on

Now where did these 9 countries get they money from (other than government), now why can't another 11 to 15 countries do the same?

I think 20 is a magic number - the moment you get 10% of the countries in the world to have it become a proper career option.
then with help of media,
Then another 10% of countries to become half a career
Then TT would be where it should be.

TT is over 100 years old, and played in most countries for over 50 years already.
heck most people has once in they life played TT (in basement, garage etc) when as a kid or at a party.
I doubt fencing is even 1% of that to TT

now back to understanding TT
this is where schools are so important - any knowledge of sports come from schools
there is where media is important - with ITTF locking up ITTV to your wider audience and national broadcasting not airing it, is it helping your average joe?

I think the focus is to first get more countries become proper TT Career orientated, and in my view, these countries must be on the list:
1) USA (all sports that is big in USA is popular in the world)
2) Brazil - I believe the club structure is strong there with lots of corporate branding on club, so maybe this is there already
3) Australia - they have a strong club coverage and membership, but I think if they can make it a players career down under, then it will increase the image further

Now, why I say this is the best
with each of the 20 countries having 50-100 players that is full time TT
that is up to 2000 players
then you have your part time TT - maybe 20000 players or more
with that, you have more job openings for coaches (school, club, personal etc) - aim for 200 coaches per country as a start - 200 schools?
with that, you will have more job openings for marketing, manager, agents, media etc

This is a business approach with money to make money and with any sport - get fans/followers/spectator to build brand power and that would give ROI

Making world tours 100 times the prize money value to me is not the criteria and making pros play too many world tours is not the criteria too (this is only ITTF method of making it big, but whats the point of ITTF being big when 99% of the players end up homeless?
They should help more countries having career structures and we need the top players to help there too

zeio
01-25-2018, 07:03 AM
Getting the US on the bandwagon doesn't necessarily mean a sport will be popular. American football, baseball, ice hockey and golf are the biggest sports in the US by coverage on national television, but they are considered fringe sports elsewhere.

Interest in table tennis around the world was at its peak between the '80s and '90s, but the ITTF failed to capitalize on the momentum. The Pro Tour(now World Tour) didn't start until 1996, after Sweden was dethroned. It was too late. By that time, European leagues such as the TTBL(best of the world at the time) already had too much influence on the livelihood of European players. The vicious cycle was in place. The ITTF simply missed the chance to really take off.

A decade of development for TTBL in the eyes of Yang Jianhua:

In 2001,

杨建华曾经在德国俱乐部打过球,当过教练,经营过乒乓球器材,现担任荷兰国家队主教练。他多年来一直为中国和欧洲乒乓球运动的交流奔走,担任很多球员的经纪人。马文革和丁松等球员都是通过他来到欧洲打球的。

他说:“欧洲人乒乓球衰落的主要标志是这里的基础比起10年前不行了,但近几年由于欧洲选手国际比赛成绩不行,国内的市场越来越小。现在在中国之外的乒乓球市场上赚钱已非常困难,而与此同时,中国乒乓球市场化改革不断深化,影响越来越大。”
https://world.eastday.com/epublish/gb/paper148/20010220/class014800010/hwz316688.htm
(Yang Jianhua had played in the German club, was a coach, ran a table tennis equipment, is now the Dutch national team coach. For years he has been playing ping pong for China and Europe and as a manager for many players. Ma Wenge and Ding Song and other players are through him to play in Europe.

He said: "The main hallmark of the decline of table tennis in Europe is that the foundation here is less than 10 years ago, but in recent years the domestic market has become smaller due to the poor performance of the European players in international competitions. It is very difficult to make money in the table tennis market, meanwhile, the market-oriented reform of table tennis in China has been deepening and affecting more and more. ") - Courtesy of Google Translate

In 2011,

  8月10日消息,在2011年中国乒超联赛接近尾声的时候,德国乒球联赛也在如火如荼地进行中。近年来,曾被封为世界乒乓球第一联赛的德国乒乓球联赛,遭遇到了自身发展的瓶颈期。

  曾在德国打球,后又成为乒球俱乐部经理人的前国球手杨建华对于目前德国联赛的现状表示,“乒乓球在德国普及率不错,但终究是小众运动,生存在大众运动的夹缝中,虽然制度完善,但项目的局限性导致了比赛上座率不高,伴随而来电视转播权无法售出转化为盈利。盈利减少导致德国甲级联赛俱乐部实力下降,吸引力下降。而中国乒超拥有更多具有明星效益的大牌球员,更多的平台和媒体转播资源,这正是德国联赛急需的再生养料。”
http://www.ctsports.com.cn/mobile/index.php?m=default&c=article&a=info&aid=39063&u=0
(August 10 news, 2011 China Table Tennis Super League nearing completion, the German table tennis league is also in full swing. In recent years, the German Table Tennis League, once named the first league table tennis in the world, has encountered the bottleneck of its own development.

Former German golfer Yang Jianhua, who played in Germany and later became a table tennis club manager, said: "The popularity of table tennis in Germany is good, but after all, it is a niche movement that survives the mass movement. , Although the system is perfect, but the limitations of the project led to the game attendance is not high, with the TV broadcast rights can not be sold for conversion into profit .Earnings decline led to the strength of the German League clubs decline, the attractiveness of the decline. With more big-star players, more platforms and media coverage, it's the much needed regenerative feed for the German league. ") - Courtesy of Google Translate

jawien
01-25-2018, 10:44 AM
The majority of [...]

I think Rain [...]

Getting the US on the bandwagon [...]

Hi, guys the discussion is interesting would you agree to move your posts to a new thread like "A general chit chat about the future of table tennis"? Would be interesting to see how far we can go with our analysis and ideas. I would ask Carl if he can do that.

zeio
01-25-2018, 11:34 AM
Hi, guys the discussion is interesting would you agree to move your posts to a new thread like "A general chit chat about the future of table tennis"? Would be interesting to see how far we can go with our analysis and ideas. I would ask Carl if he can do that.
I'm all for it.