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CroneOne
01-06-2018, 08:03 AM
I've been reading that BH dominant players use the reverse pendulum and that FH dominant players
use the pendulum however it's not making sense. It's obvious when you watch Zike, FZD and ML that
it's true. But...when you pendulum serve with back sidespin, it's
common for your opponent to easily push it to your BH. The pivot FH 3rd ball isn't the ideal FH as it leaves
the wide FH open. Wouldn't you want to reverse pendulum as the spin would sway the return
towards the FH side? I've tried this and it works for a 3rd ball FH attack in the FH zone.

Conversely, would a BH dominant player want the spin swayed towards a BH area return with
a normal pendulum serve?

6Finger
01-06-2018, 08:11 AM
It's because if you serve reverse pendulum with a lot of sidespin and short and opponent try's to push it to middle or forehand side it will go out, so he is forced to push it to your backhand side and ball shall go to your's backhand or middle. Trick is to produce a lot of sidespin, ball has to be low and short but doesn't need to have much backspin.

songdavid98
01-06-2018, 01:06 PM
Good question!

with the pendulum sidespin, it's actually easier to push to the forehand since it is actually more dangerous to let the sidespin lead the ball towards your backhand.

Not only that, with the sidespin on your serve, the push will naturally also have some sidespin as well. The pendulum sidespin generally should give you are return that curves towards your forehand (unless they push with the spin).

So it's generally better for forehand dominant players to use the pendulum sidespin

Milan Nemec
01-06-2018, 09:14 PM
If you are a FH-dominant player, you want to get the return back to your BH - because when you play the pivot FH from there and the ball comes back, you can continue FH-attacking.
If you play a reverse pendulum, you are likely to get the service return to your FH side which is nice as you expect it/if you can play a winner. But when your FH is returned with interest to your BH side, you are forced into a BH rally and are at a disadvantage as a FH dominant player...

UpSideDownCarl
01-06-2018, 10:24 PM
Good question!

with the pendulum sidespin, it's actually easier to push to the forehand since it is actually more dangerous to let the sidespin lead the ball towards your backhand.

Not only that, with the sidespin on your serve, the push will naturally also have some sidespin as well. The pendulum sidespin generally should give you are return that curves towards your forehand (unless they push with the spin).

So it's generally better for forehand dominant players to use the pendulum sidespin

Excellent post.

What David said. And also, one more thing.

If you serve to me with a reverse pendulum, the sidespin makes it easier for me to attack that with my BH (righty to righty). If you serve to me with regular pendulum it is for me to attack with my FH. Again, this is because it is easier for the FH to handle the regular pendulum sidespin with less risk. And this is because the angle our wrists are put onto our bodies and the angle the racket meets the ball when you attack.

Now, if I serve reverse pendulum sidespin, the return will actually come back with a certain amount of reverse sidespin. So, even if the push is on my FH side, it will be easier to attack that spin with the BH. Note how often FZD steps over to the FH side to take the ball with his BH. ZJK used to do that a lot when he was at the top of his game too.

So the spin that comes back from a reverse is just easier to do a standard attack with the BH. To attack that sidespin with FH and not meet the ball where the spin is the strongest, you have to contact the inside of the ball and do a fade loop.

TableTennisTom
01-07-2018, 07:22 AM
I've been reading that BH dominant players use the reverse pendulum and that FH dominant players
use the pendulum however it's not making sense. It's obvious when you watch Zike, FZD and ML that
it's true. But...when you pendulum serve with back sidespin, it's
common for your opponent to easily push it to your BH. The pivot FH 3rd ball isn't the ideal FH as it leaves
the wide FH open. Wouldn't you want to reverse pendulum as the spin would sway the return
towards the FH side? I've tried this and it works for a 3rd ball FH attack in the FH zone.

Conversely, would a BH dominant player want the spin swayed towards a BH area return with
a normal pendulum serve?

Both options can work and should be used. There is no 'rule' to say you should only do one or the other.

I use both serves and at the level I play at, both can be very effective at setting up FH attacks.

For pendulum serves - you are right the spin will make the ball kick back to the backhand. Better opponents often account for this. Rather than risk the ball going off the table, they aim more to FH / middle. This often means the ball comes back to the middle of table or middle of backhand side. This makes it fairly easy to attack with the FH. Oddly enough, it is often weaker players who return the ball to a very wide BH position, as they can't control the spin, and this makes it a bit more difficult to step around and play FH.

For reverse pendulum - you are right, the spin will make the ball kick to the forehand. As Carl mentions, this can be a little more awkward to attack because of the reverse spin on the ball as it is returned to you. But with practice you soon adjust to this. I have found that some opponents really struggle with reverse sidespin and return very passively. This makes it very easy to kill the 3rd ball with a forehand attack.

So my message to you would be to do both when playing. Both can be effective. A lot depends who your opponent is and how well they return each serve. And don't worry too much about copying what MA Long, FZD and Zhang Jike are doing. They are playing at a completely different level. At an amateur level, both serves can work to set up a FH attack.

shakehand
01-07-2018, 10:53 AM
What if the opponent serves very heavy short pendular pure side spin to to the middle of the table?
I have tried to receive with forehand passive push and angle the blade to almost vertical and angle not to bounce a lot back to their backhand side (samsonov sometimes does it) , but because i angle the blade not to let go off to opponent backhand side, the ball sometimes cannot get enough grip on my forearm rubber and drop into the net.
But if i reduce the angle a bit , the side spin really kick off my blade which make ball too high or go off to opponent backhand side.
How shall i deal with that situation?
Maybe backhand banana flip works but i am not that fast sometimes to position myself.
I tried to flip with forehand because the angle is already good not to let the ball go to backhand, but consistency drops

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NextLevel
01-07-2018, 01:24 PM
My coach said to serve pendulum if I wanted to open with my backhand and the most backhand dominant player in my club who never pivots serves pendulum serves.

In the end it really is about your ball contact preferences and his well your opponent is adjusting for either sidespin. I understand the concept of limiting the table but in the end it isn't as big a deal as how well you read and respond to the returns of your serve.

NextLevel
01-07-2018, 03:05 PM
The biggest reason people don't use reverse pendulum serves is that they can't put enough spin on the ball compared to the pendulum and the wrist isn't as flexible. The Punch serve is somewhat changing that now.

tropical
01-07-2018, 05:03 PM
As a left handed player, when I used play inverted on BH I served heavy/side spin half long to the RH of the righthand player. If he returned the serve short, I could easily BH flip to the far side of the RH opponent and caught him/her off guard with the residual side spin besides the top spin.
This is similar to reverse pendulum serve from the RH player which should be easy to attack with FH if the return is long enough. My guess why FZD or ZJK stepped to their FH to do BH flip is because of this reason. It is not that they can't do FH flip but because BH flip is more effective with short return.

Lightzy
01-07-2018, 10:28 PM
My guess why FZD or ZJK stepped to their FH to do BH flip is because of this reason. It is not that they can't do FH flip but because BH flip is more effective with short return.

I believe they step to the forehand to do a banana flick because they were using the angle to either avoid or use the spin of the serve (so it presses into their rubber) instead of meeting it head on.
I'm not sure however. This is what I do, because it turns your strawberry flick to a high percentage shot that you can actually build your whole serve return game on. but probably they have such perfect touch they can easily flick any serve, meeting the spin head on, if they read the spin correctly..


For example a right-handed short punch serve to the middle or forehand - you skip to the forehand side and flick the serve and thus you get all of the power of the serve to fuel your return. Also if you hit the ball straight on you can also avoid the spin of the serve.
With the banana flick against short serve it is very easy to hit the ball at different angles so you also have surprise.

UpSideDownCarl
01-08-2018, 12:29 AM
Can someone out there explain what the difference between a strawberry flick and a banana is?


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NextLevel
01-08-2018, 01:01 AM
Can someone out there explain what the difference between a strawberry flick and a banana is?


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Banana flick is like a backhand loop or a sidespin variation or just a hooking backhand shot.

Strawberry flick is what some people also call violin. The only top player who I know uses it on a regular basis is Gauzy.

That's why I get very confused when I read Lightzy repeatedly use the phrase strawberry flick.

Flatstyk
01-08-2018, 01:10 AM
I thought strawberry was a term some use for the "mirror" of a banana flick, same ball contact, just on the forehand side.

Lightzy
01-08-2018, 01:33 AM
Oh sorry I meant to write banana flick. I'll correct my post. They do the banana flick from both sides.

Strawberry flick is where you come to do a backhand push but then instead you LIFT your arm straight up, thus rolling the ball with topspin with the backhand side of your rubber but on the forehand side of your body.

Err..
Needs visualization I guess.

Andy44
01-08-2018, 02:13 AM
Can someone out there explain what the difference between a strawberry flick and a banana is?

I've always understood them to be sidespin (usually with some topspin) backhand flicks. Banana sidespin is like pendulum, strawberry is like reverse pendulum.

Banana flick:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5OtcmQE0aQ

Strawberry flick (called 'boomerang' flick in this video):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYM9PRX3QhI

UpSideDownCarl
01-08-2018, 03:05 AM
Oh sorry I meant to write banana flick. I'll correct my post. They do the banana flick from both sides.

Strawberry flick is where you come to do a backhand push but then instead you LIFT your arm straight up, thus rolling the ball with topspin with the backhand side of your rubber but on the forehand side of your body.

Err..
Needs visualization I guess.

Cool. Glad you caught it. [emoji2]


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yoass
01-08-2018, 06:03 AM
Can someone out there explain what the difference between a strawberry flick and a banana is?


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Banana: clockwise. Strawberry: counterclockwise.

The strawberry looks like a push, and then… boom.