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yogi_bear
03-05-2018, 05:56 AM
https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/cache.php?img=https%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FMYfa9mH.jpg

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/cache.php?img=https%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F7tCe4nU.jpg

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/cache.php?img=https%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fz88Q64B.jpg

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/cache.php?img=https%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F2Agaxyx.jpg

Xiom Vega Tour
Speed: OFF+
Hardness: 45 degrees (HARD)
Weight: 64-65 grams (uncut)

I was lucky to have the Xiom Vega Tour (VT) because at the time it was sent to me, I think I was the only one who has it outside Korea to test it. I was surprised to have this at an earlier time because I was expecting that I would test this in April. Still, I am grateful for this opportunity to test a new rubber. At first inspection the topsheet is the grippiest I have seen outside the Omega V and VII series among Xiom's rubbers. The Vega series has rubbers that have the best bang for the buck prices and performance ratio. The Vega topsheets are known to be very grippy but even the DF versions of the Vega rubbers seem to be less grippy compared to the new Vega Tour. The Vega Tour does not have the DF logo on it. The topsheet is grippy but has only a little tackiness. The previous Xiom tau seems to be tackier. Xiom Tau is much more closer to Palio Thor's but the Vega Tour is unlike the 2 mentioned because the feel is different and plays quite different. The Xiom Tau and Thor's play like a faster Hurricane 3 but there is a feel of deadness when striking the ball. The rubber (with topsheet) is the hardest I have tried so far for a euro made rubber. The first info given was, according to Xiom was that it was 52.5 degrees, they informed me that it is 45 degrees. Although, I would still say it is hard because it is closest to MX-S in hardness and comapred to 47.5 degree rubbers, this feels hard. It feels like a 40 degrees if not 39 degrees hardness for Hurricane 3 Neo. it feels harder than MX-S, Joola Maxxx 500 and Rasanter R50.

The Vega Tour is the fastest Vega rubber presently. It does not behave like the previous Vega rubbers because it plays a little different. I can compare the speed to that of the Z1 Bluestorm and slightly slower than the Omega VII Pro. Near the table, the Vega Tour sometimes goes long. The VT produces a long sharp trajectory. I had to adjust to the rubber at first and took me a day to understand the mechanics using the rubber. It was probably the low throw that I had to adjust with the rubber. The low arc of the VT is like that of the Hurricane 2. The Vega Pro and Asia are fast rubbers but the Vega Tour is a vicious one. It is amazingly fast but still has good control over it if your level is at least intermediate. The Vega Pro has better control over Vega Tour. On smashes the rubber is very good but it seems that smashing is not its best feature. Blocking is also good but it players who use this should be used to blocking using hard rubbers or Chinese rubbers.

The Vega Tour is one of the best loop driving rubber. The spin is slightly above that of the MX-S. You can describe it as an MX-S on steroids with a lower throw or arc. I think this is one of the best Hurricane 3 substitute. It has almost the same level of spin but the VT is way faster than less sensitive to incoming spin. If you are looking for a Euro rubber that has the capabilities of a Chinese rubber and do not want to spend too much like that of the Butterfly Spin Art then the Vega Tour. I think the VT will not be as expensive as the Omega VII series. I think it is only logical to have the Vega Tour more affordable than the Omega VII series since not everyone can afford the Omega VII's. The Vega Tour has specific kind of strokes that it favors. If you came from a Hurricane 3 rubber adjustment is not too hard. It should only be the speed that feels a bit overwhelming as first because the VT is just that fast. Loop drives and slow looping are its best future. It is like looping with a faster Chinese rubber or a boosted Hurricane 2 minus the tackiness. Even spinny pushes have huge amount of spin in them and services are spinny too. If probably at 2.0mm, which I will be testing soon when the 2.0mm rubbers arrive. I reckon they can be good to chop defensively on a defensive set up. The only catch I can see with the Vega Tour is that it requires a good amount of touch and brushing when spinning the ball. It is not a rubber for beginners as you need to have a good and correct way of brushing the ball like brushing the ball when using a Chinese rubber. The sponge is very hard and so the ball does not sink deep as compared to softer 47.5 degree rubbers which when you compress against the sponge it produces more spin. The Vega Tour requires a person to properly brush and contact the ball plus a good feel of the ball to fully utilize it but when you are able to use it properly it can be a good alternative to Tenergy albeit a little harder. All in all, this seems to be an excellent and all out attacking rubber. It may took a bit of time to fully adjust to it but this is just me and probably the 2.0mm that I will be getting will be the one suited for me. This was tested on a Xiom Zeta Offensive+ Carbon by the way.

yogi_bear
03-05-2018, 07:52 AM
Ill update this post later. The color is not right with the font and some info i need to change.

yogi_bear
03-05-2018, 12:28 PM
Erratum: Xiom changed their info about the rubber being 52.5 degrees and they say it is 45 degrees but feels as hard as MX-S or HUrricane 3 Provincial with purple packaging.

langel
03-05-2018, 12:46 PM
I think the new Xiom Omega VII Tour will be 52.5 degrees, maybe they have messed with it.

Reading your review I have the feeling that Vega Tour combines a lot of the properties of Omega V Asia and Tour.

yogi_bear
03-05-2018, 01:44 PM
Yup but the spin is awesome, just need a good brushing technique which hurricane users will really appreciate. And i think it costs at about 40usd???

langel
03-05-2018, 02:02 PM
Even cheaper, maybe. Here Omega VII is 45 usd.

AndySmith
03-05-2018, 03:16 PM
Well, I'm all excited about this now. Many thanks!

OhWell
03-05-2018, 04:15 PM
Is it just me, or must either “elasto futura”, or “cycloid” be their name for 2.3mm sponge + thin top sheet?

(Reasoning: (1) xiom employees have confirmed on this forum that O7 has the thick sponge, thin topsheet structure; and (2) the only new tech names for o7 are elasto futura and cycloid. Hence the thought that one of these two terms most likely covers the thin sheet/2.3 sponge tech.)

If that’s the case (not sure), it sounds like VT might have that structure too.

Any info on this?

AndySmith
04-13-2018, 01:00 PM
It's almost impossible to know what Xiom mean when they say elasto blah or cycloid thingy. It probably relates to something ESN do in the factory, but what exactly and if it's unique to Xiom rubbers it's just too hard to say.

I've picked up a sheet of Vega Tour, 2.0mm, red. Compared to a sheet of Omega VII Euro (same colour and thickness) -



Tour's sponge is harder, but has similar small pores (smaller pores than O7Pro, for example).
Topsheet is a slightly more faded colour of red. Possibly a different rubber composition.
Pips are shorter but with similar spacing. Leads to Tour's topsheet feeling harder than both O7 variants.
Upper topsheet looks to be the same thickness by eye, but it's really hard to judge without being a bit more scientific. I mean, I've got Rasanter V42 on my main blade and it looks to be the same thickness to me, and that's supposed to be a thinner topsheet, so maybe perhaps possibly????
Feels really grippy - more immediate grip than the original Vega line IMO.


I'll pop back after some sessions with it.

yogi_bear
04-13-2018, 02:11 PM
Tour is nearest to mxs but the tour seem to have a longer trajectory in the table and seems faster than mxs.

vossi39
04-15-2018, 10:22 AM
I also got a Vega Tour sheet in Black (MAX) and now played it for like 10 hours in practice and two match games with my team (we are still using celluloid balls, not plastic). I can only really compare it against a Vega Pro sheet (MAX) on the same racket (XIOM Vega Tour, 81g).

It was already mentioned earlier in the threat. The Vega Tour (VT) has thinner top sheet compared to the Vega Pro (VP). The sponge is definitly a different composition.

I made a picture to compare. Not sure how to describe it, but the VP sponge seems to be more like a rubber, while the VT sponge looks a bit more like plastic

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/cache.php?img=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tabletennisdaily.com%2Fforum%2Fcache.php%3Fimg%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fi.imgur.com%252FJIePijUm.jpg (https://imgur.com/JIePijU)

Left is the VP and right the VT.

The weight difference is around 4g (VP=53, VT=49g cut to size of the Vega Tour blade)

First impression was, not too much of a difference. The VT has bit more basic speed, compared to the VP, which was annoying in the beginning, but I adjusted without too much problem. The additional speed is most "visible" in passiv blocks and long pushes.

Spin is a bit higher with the VT on loops, especially in slow loops.

Short game is similar to VP, but I had more problems with the half long placement (ball bounces twice, first mid of table and than close to base line again). These ball were usually a bit too long, making it possible for the opponent to attack with more spin, instead of being forced to attack over the table). But this is something that can be learned with some additional practice.
I also still have an issue with passive blocking, these balls also tend to go long (the rubber is definitly more sensitive to incoming spin, not really a surprise, if it generates more spin :cool:) but active blocks (with a bit of wrist) get really nasty (long, fast and very low).

Not to make this a too long of a review. I really like the VT on my forehand (on backhand I still prefer the more compact VP). I will do more testing this summer, when we switch to plastic balls. If the VT at the end will replace my VP is also a matter of price. The VT will most probably be 10 EUR more expensive than the VP, which is 1/3 of the overall price of the VP. Does it play 1/3 better or do I win more games?
We will see after summer...Maybe plastic ball makes such a big difference that I'm willing to spent the money.

iamsan
06-03-2018, 09:30 PM
great reviews guys. thanks for that!

i played with H3 a long time before switching to a Tensor because H3 excelled at 3rd ball attack, which where mostly direct points, but my missing quote was way too high (in some games over 60 %, mostly 40%).
Tensor gave me this "easy to play" feeling, i even found a rubber where attackin backspin ball is effortless).

now i do consider to go back the H3, as i do like long swing fh attacks, but to find smth inbetween H3 and Tensor, also i dislike tacky topsheets. in some reviews i read about the new plastic ball specific rubbers like Rasanter or Vega Tour with thin and soft topsheet and thick and hard sponge.

i would like to stay in touch with the Vega Tour experience of other players.

iamsan
06-04-2018, 05:57 AM
Hi guys.

Maybe someone do also have experience with H8 and could do a comparison to VT, Rasanter and H3.
I would appreciate it.

yogi_bear
06-04-2018, 10:40 AM
Which rasanter?

iamsan
06-04-2018, 05:32 PM
I am mostly interested in R50 (which I own) and R47 (I kinda prefer mid-hard rubbers right now).
As u described VT harder than R50, then it would be too hard for me I guess.
I talk mostly about my fh cuz I do shorter strokes on bh tho .

yogi_bear
06-04-2018, 06:16 PM
Although the sponge pf r50 is harder, the vega tour has a harder overall feel. Another xiom product that can replace h3 is xiom vega china. Semi tacky but bouncy rubber that has characteristics of hurricane.

hills4ever
06-05-2018, 03:43 AM
The technology based on VEGA TOUR is almost exactly as of Omega VII. :)

The structure is more similar to Omega VII Euro. I hope it helps.


Is it just me, or must either “elasto futura”, or “cycloid” be their name for 2.3mm sponge + thin top sheet?

(Reasoning: (1) xiom employees have confirmed on this forum that O7 has the thick sponge, thin topsheet structure; and (2) the only new tech names for o7 are elasto futura and cycloid. Hence the thought that one of these two terms most likely covers the thin sheet/2.3 sponge tech.)

If that’s the case (not sure), it sounds like VT might have that structure too.

Any info on this?

Airoc
06-05-2018, 07:00 AM
Although the sponge pf r50 is harder, the vega tour has a harder overall feel.

Having tried both as you have I find it hard to agree. Vega Tour seemed bouncy and soft-ish even compared to my Rasanter R47, let alone the 50 degree version.

yogi_bear
06-05-2018, 07:59 AM
We agree to disagree. There is something with the R50 that makes it not too hard. Even at 50 degrees the r50 feels like 48. I had all the rasanter versions before, the vt feels a tad harder. Also with the r50, it is easier to sink the ball against the rubber compared to the vt.

Kolev
06-05-2018, 08:54 AM
Any smell of a booster?

yogi_bear
06-05-2018, 09:44 AM
There is a faint smell

AndySmith
06-05-2018, 02:33 PM
We agree to disagree. There is something with the R50 that makes it not too hard. Even at 50 degrees the r50 feels like 48. I had all the rasanter versions before, the vt feels a tad harder. Also with the r50, it is easier to sink the ball against the rubber compared to the vt.

Vega Tour seems strange to me. It doesn't feel physically hard if you poke it with your finger, but in play it feels very...stiff for want of a better word. Hard to describe really. I didn't like it.

iamsan
06-05-2018, 03:05 PM
May someone compare the topsheet of VT, Rasanter and H3?
With the thicker sponge I assume that the sheet is gonna be soft to get faster to the sponge - on the other side u need some grip for services

Kolev
08-07-2018, 10:51 AM
BTW I think of buying this rubber hoping that it will be easier than O7P to open against backspin. This is a very important aspect of my tactics and the O7P didn't deliver as expected. Utterly disappointed

yogi_bear
08-07-2018, 08:32 PM
O7P's spin is more profound when you sink the ball deeper into the sponge. The vega tour is very spinny even by just. Thin brush because it favors a stroke lime using hurricane 3

Kolev
08-08-2018, 12:18 AM
I was producing incredible chops away from the table cause I let the ball sink in. Spin was amazing...but for some reasons I could not manage opening against pushes and chops. Rakza X was on the other side and it did much better, maybe because I am more familiar with it
I am a long time fan of xiom rubbers, used and tried most of them and probably will try the VT hoping the it will fit my attacking style, otherwise I will stick with the Rakza.
I like the fact that the VT is light and I'll be happy if it can offer a bit more than the VP, or Vega Japan. BTW are there similarities with the VJ? Where do they differ?

neon
12-03-2018, 07:42 PM
I was producing incredible chops away from the table cause I let the ball sink in. Spin was amazing...but for some reasons I could not manage opening against pushes and chops. Rakza X was on the other side and it did much better, maybe because I am more familiar with it
I am a long time fan of xiom rubbers, used and tried most of them and probably will try the VT hoping the it will fit my attacking style, otherwise I will stick with the Rakza.
I like the fact that the VT is light and I'll be happy if it can offer a bit more than the VP, or Vega Japan. BTW are there similarities with the VJ? Where do they differ?

Hello friends, yogi says vt is hard, airoc says it is softer then r 47. I believe .............airoc. Can some one compare XIOM VT to other well known rubbers? FOR example t05, or t80 or t64 ........... please.

neon
12-04-2018, 07:52 PM
Hello friends, bought VT black 1.8 mm. 16,9 x 16,8 mm. Weight 58,9 grams. Cut to my 157 x 150 mm blade
is 42 grams. Rubber is black and I can't see clear pips structure. But it is light. In 2.0 mm must be around 44.5
grams and in max must be around 47 grams. Will testing soon. TKS.

langel
12-04-2018, 07:56 PM
Waiting your comparison to Tenergy!

Gerald Finch
12-04-2018, 09:25 PM
I'm considering trying the Tour because I'm not very happy with Vega Pro on fast brush loops. It works fine, but not ideal, but the way the Tour's brush loops are described makes it very tempting to try. Can someone maybe record a variety of loops (slow loops, loop kills, sidespin hooks etc) and maybe compare it to common rubbers?

yogi_bear
12-05-2018, 01:30 AM
Tour is good. If you want something spinnier then omega v tour

neon
12-06-2018, 07:33 PM
Hello friends, some new information, pips structure is between t80 and t05, rubber above pips is thin like rasanters and tenergy, sponge is 45 degree(euro scale) , softer than tenergy , plays good like all spiny 45 euro degree rubber, like tibhar select but with more tuning. I like xiom tuning it is strong and last long. See you soon and good luck.

neon
12-10-2018, 07:21 PM
Hi, some new information, bought a red one 1.8 mm too and with magnifying glass I saw different pips structure, VT has a bit thiner pips and space between pips is wider than tenergy. I have a friend, he work in factory with electronic microscope and will check better. In play VT has low trow then tibhar select. VT has close pips structure with omega 7 pro, but play with more spin and easy, may be because VT I bought is 1.8 mm and O7P is 2.0 .... don't know. In comparison with tibhar slelect, VT has low trow and less spin, select is a true spiny rubber but with 45 degree euro sponge. VT is 45 degree too but plays easy , less spin, low trow but not like omega 7 pro. O7P is too strange, more direct , low trow, less spin. I hope help, good luck.

yogi_bear
12-11-2018, 12:42 PM
Overall, VT feels harder if you press your fingers on it compared to O7P.

Ioiettino
12-11-2018, 03:35 PM
Yogi, is there any chance you got an early example which does not match later production entirely (I'm thinking of tuning, in particular)?

There's quite a bit of contradicting information on this one, and I didn't go through the 1485 (!) associated posts on a French forum, but the consensus was that the sponge felt softer than Vega Pro, with guesstimates between 42 and 46 degrees. Not crazily demanding in play, although middle sponge thickness seems to get more votes. Rigid topsheet which hardly gets activated on lower power shots, still very grippy - that seems to match. Descriptions of throw angles are all over the place, although this won't be a first.

Maybe the blade you were using could also be a factor? Another thing I read a few times was that players preferred it on flexy all-wood. I know you have tested your way through hundreds of different rubbers, and I'm always glad to read your reviews but I am surprised at how different impressions can be.

watcher
12-15-2018, 12:30 AM
Is it just me, or must either “elasto futura”, or “cycloid” be their name for 2.3mm sponge + thin top sheet?

(Reasoning: (1) xiom employees have confirmed on this forum that O7 has the thick sponge, thin topsheet structure; and (2) the only new tech names for o7 are elasto futura and cycloid. Hence the thought that one of these two terms most likely covers the thin sheet/2.3 sponge tech.)

If that’s the case (not sure), it sounds like VT might have that structure too.

Any info on this?

Being a xiom fan, I had to look this up to see what future elasto was all about. Perusing some korean forums/shops, here is what I understand about 'elasto futura' and 'cycloid.'

But before I do that, let's take a step back and understand the xiom tech path. Prior to elasto futura, there was physi elasto, and hyper elasto. In a nutshell:

1. Physi elasto is a NON-TENSION technology focused on increasing speed/spin while maintaining maximum control (e.g. MUSA)

2. Hyper Elasto is for their tension rubbers, and it focuses on what they call the 'big window.' The big window was a reference to the air space above the net, which hyper elasto is supposed to widen by increasing spin to speed ratio. Essentially, it improves spin so that the ball will curve back onto the table and not miss it. And also to note, Hyper Elasto employed IMB (internal mechanic boost), which was their tech to provide the tension effect in their rubber. I believe it was a property of the topsheet (vega, omega < 7)

Now... in the latest generation of xiom rubbers, we have... ELASTO FUTURA + CYCLOID. What does this mean? Well... this is what I can extract of bits of marketing material and what users are saying...

Elasto Futura is the next generation in the tech ladder that describes a behavior of the rubber, like physi/hyper elasto. The focus of Elasto Futura is increased spin and low throw while maintaining speed. Unlike big window that focus on high arc and spin-focused safety/forgiveness, Elasto Futura is all about increasing safety on low arc loops. They do this by implementing their cycloid technology, which essentially is the observed thin topsheet + pips structure that's talked about here. Doing this allows the ball to sink more into the sponge, and along with their dynamic friction tech on their topsheet, helps increase spin output more than the previous generation of rubbers. In play, the desired effect is the ball breaks/curves sooner, so your low arc balls safely hit the table.

disclaimer: whether or not this xiom tech works as described is not the point of my post. i just wanted to get a clearer understanding of their marketing terms, because i sometimes enjoy stuff like this. that is all :)

neon
12-15-2018, 07:10 PM
Hi, all words describe tt technology are just marketing words. Like dozens words for acetylsalicylic acid in all over the word. It's nonsensе.

Cornerer
12-18-2018, 05:12 PM
yogi, is VT spinnier than Asia DF or Aurus Select/Prime? Is the throw about as low as Rasanter? Is the speed very controllable (can be deployed at will) or "bouncy speed"? Is it all-out forehand rubber?

Looking for replacing my dead FH rubber. Thanks in advance.

yogi_bear
12-18-2018, 05:26 PM
Vega tour has lesser spin than Tenergy to answer someone's question.

neon
03-11-2019, 03:10 PM
Hi friends, some new information. VT: topsheet-0.72, pimple-0.88, sponge-1.8, distance-0.72, pimple width-1.58
O7P: topsheet-0.72, pimple-0.88, sponge-2.00, distance-0.72, pimple width-1.61
Tibhar select: topsheet-0.72, pimple-0.88, sponge 1.7, distance 0.62, pimple width 1.7
T05: topsheet 0.72, pimple 0.94, sponge 2.2, distance 0.62, pimp. width 1.71
all in mm. Good luck.

watcher
03-11-2019, 05:01 PM
Hi friends, some new information. VT: topsheet-0.72, pimple-0.88, sponge-1.8, distance-0.72, pimple width-1.58
O7P: topsheet-0.72, pimple-0.88, sponge-2.00, distance-0.72, pimple width-1.61
Tibhar select: topsheet-0.72, pimple-0.88, sponge 1.7, distance 0.62, pimple width 1.7
T05: topsheet 0.72, pimple 0.94, sponge 2.2, distance 0.62, pimp. width 1.71
all in mm. Good luck.

How to interpret this data? :)

yogi_bear
03-11-2019, 11:53 PM
It talks about topsheet thickness and pimples width with each rubber mentioned aside from other things.

watcher
03-12-2019, 12:38 AM
It talks about topsheet thickness and pimples width with each rubber mentioned aside from other things.

I get that, but I was wondering what I can extrapolate out of it. How does this help me form an opinion about the VT? Or was this just a 'take it for what it is. you decide what it means' type of post? :)

lasta
03-12-2019, 02:48 AM
Hi friends, some new information. VT: topsheet-0.72, pimple-0.88, sponge-1.8, distance-0.72, pimple width-1.58
O7P: topsheet-0.72, pimple-0.88, sponge-2.00, distance-0.72, pimple width-1.61
Tibhar select: topsheet-0.72, pimple-0.88, sponge 1.7, distance 0.62, pimple width 1.7
T05: topsheet 0.72, pimple 0.94, sponge 2.2, distance 0.62, pimp. width 1.71
all in mm. Good luck.

Excellent data! Do you have a bigger depository? Thanks!

yogi_bear
03-12-2019, 05:47 AM
The variables are too many for a combination of effects to be fully explained.

langel
03-12-2019, 07:51 AM
Hi friends, some new information. VT: topsheet-0.72, pimple-0.88, sponge-1.8, distance-0.72, pimple width-1.58
O7P: topsheet-0.72, pimple-0.88, sponge-2.00, distance-0.72, pimple width-1.61
Tibhar select: topsheet-0.72, pimple-0.88, sponge 1.7, distance 0.62, pimple width 1.7
T05: topsheet 0.72, pimple 0.94, sponge 2.2, distance 0.62, pimp. width 1.71
all in mm. Good luck.

Where are these figures from?

Why a particular sponge thikness is mantioned, its not a constant.

watcher
03-12-2019, 04:51 PM
It was measured in a lab by one of neon's friends, so they reflect a specific sheet of rubber. It's a sample meant to give an idea of how they measure up (literally). I'm not a domain expert in pimple geometry/tech, so I will just bow out :)

Chewy
03-12-2019, 06:41 PM
O7P's spin is more profound when you sink the ball deeper into the sponge. The vega tour is very spinny even by just. Thin brush because it favors a stroke lime using hurricane 3

Yogi, I totally agree with you on the spin of the O7P. The topsheet combination with the sponge is just right for me, and I felt that I am able to generate spin with the O7P easily. Somehow makes me feel like it is an improved and softer version of the O5A. I can't use the O7A though, felt that it was too hard for me.

Comparing the Vega Tour and O7P. Can you comment on which has a higher arc? Which has a better grip, and ability to lift underspin? You did mention the speed of the O7P is slightly faster, could you give a rough percentage? How much faster? 10%? Thank you!

yogi_bear
03-13-2019, 02:13 AM
Hmm when hitting both probably at 20%?? Hard to quantify really. With the O7P, you can actually drive an underspin ball easily even with less brush contact because the sponge actually helps a lot.

Chewy
03-13-2019, 06:27 AM
I see. Yes the sponge helps with the power too. Especially for punching. The topsheet is not too soft in a way where the sponge is not always immediately engaged. This is what I like.

neon
09-20-2019, 05:38 PM
Hello friends. From rubbers i have trimmings and I gave to friend. He work in factory and there is electric microscope and He measured them. T05 and aurus sellect is typical spin rubbers with high trow. Vega tour and O7p is flat rubbers with low trow ... good for backhand maybe . I still use VT 1.8 mm on boot sides. Good luck.