high or low throw angle?

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The term throw angle is bogus term. I can define it but most people have no idea what it means.
There is a iTTF document by Tieffenbacher that explains a lot.
The Tieffenbacher document calls most TT opinions about spin myths
The term throw angle should be replaced by the tangential COR to the normal COR.
COR is the coefficient of restitution.
 
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The term throw angle is bogus term. I can define it but most people have no idea what it means.
There is a iTTF document by Tieffenbacher that explains a lot.
The Tieffenbacher document calls most TT opinions about spin myths
The term throw angle should be replaced by the tangential COR to the normal COR.
COR is the coefficient of restitution.

The next step after replacing "throw angle" by "the ratio of the tangential COR to the normal COR" would be to call it "throw angle" for short. I'd guess most people have a useful idea of what it means.
 
says Spin and more spin.
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[edit] Well, I wrote this before brokenball spoiled my fun. But, here goes anyway. :)

The real question is, what does high throw angle actually mean. And a few years ago there were two epic threads on this subject that were going on at the same time.

We don't really want to reawaken those old dead threads.

But here: rubbers with higher throw may actually mean rubbers with a higher ratio of spin to speed. And rubbers with a lower throw angle may actually mean, rubbers with a higher speed to spin ratio. So the faster rubber with less spin is generally termed low throw and the spinnier rubber with less speed is usually termed high throw.

For example, T05 is slower than T64 and T05 gets more spin than T64.

On a rubber that has a higher spin/speed ratio like T05, the topsheed grabs the ball harder, and because the ball is slower but is spinning more, gives the ball more arc in its flight and causes the ball to leave the rubber at a higher angle, or, you could say, causes you to have to close the racket more to get the ball to go more forward. Since the only thing different between T05 and T64 is the pimple structure, not the material, the pimple structure of T05 is what causes the topsheet to grab the ball more and throw the ball out with a little more spin, a little less speed and higher.

And, yet another way of saying it is: T05 is more reactive to incoming spin than T64.

So, a player who can handle those features that make T05 generate more spin, can utilize it.

But a player like Wang Liqin was famous for liking dangerous low throw power shots. And he was pretty decent. :) So, in the end, what equipment you like is really a matter of personal choice.
 
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In 2001, the UN added the inability to use a computer as the 3rd criterion to its definition of illiteracy.

That's what the 5th post was all about.

My dad had a different perspective and said it should be the other way, that a computer should be simple enough that even an illiterate can use it. 6 years later, we had the modern smartphone that aimed to tackle that problem. Another 10 years later, we're almost at that point.

The 7th post was such an attempt.

In layman's terms, there're two forces at work here.

  1. Topspin ball curves downward.
  2. Basic geometry.

Still too complicated? The image below should be self-explanatory.

http://www.nittaku.com/products/detail/detail.php?id=3
FAgs1Yf.jpg
 
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Because they want the ball to go over the net.
That's why, mainly.

In my understanding this could be a summary:

- soft OR spin oriented rubbers -> high throw angle -> the arc of the ball is more rounded, and goes safely over the net.
PRO - Even without a consolidate technique, the ball should land on the other side (usually in the middle of the opponent side table)
CONS -The trajectory is higher, it means the ball it's easy to be intercepted and counter

- hard OR speed oriented rubber -> low throw angle -> the arc of the ball is more direct and the trajectory is straight.
PRO - Hard for the opponent to counter. The ball usually goes close to the end of the other side.
CONS - A good technique is required since those rubbers are less prone to errors.
 
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That's why, mainly.

In my understanding this could be a summary:

- soft OR spin oriented rubbers -> high throw angle -> the arc of the ball is more rounded, and goes safely over the net.
PRO - Even without a consolidate technique, the ball should land on the other side (usually in the middle of the opponent side table)
CONS -The trajectory is higher, it means the ball it's easy to be intercepted and counter

- hard OR speed oriented rubber -> low throw angle -> the arc of the ball is more direct and the trajectory is straight.
PRO - Hard for the opponent to counter. The ball usually goes close to the end of the other side.
CONS - A good technique is required since those rubbers are less prone to errors.

The summary has some issues or Timo Boll would not use Tenergy 05 and his technique is great and his loops are extremely difficult to counter. Same with Dima and many other top pros.
 
says Spin and more spin.
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In 2001, the UN added the inability to use a computer as the 3rd criterion to its definition of illiteracy.

That's what the 5th post was all about.

My dad had a different perspective and said it should be the other way, that a computer should be simple enough that even an illiterate can use it. 6 years later, we had the modern smartphone that aimed to tackle that problem. Another 10 years later, we're almost at that point.

The 7th post was such an attempt.

In layman's terms, there're two forces at work here.

  1. Topspin ball curves downward.
  2. Basic geometry.

Still too complicated? The image below should be self-explainatory.

http://www.nittaku.com/products/detail/detail.php?id=3
cache.php

I would say this takes the prize. The image even shows why some low throw rubbers get described as having a long trajectory. :)

Illiteracy wins the day.
 
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The summary has some issues or Timo Boll would not use Tenergy 05 and his technique is great and his loops are extremely difficult to counter. Same with Dima and many other top pros.

yes well probably the T05 or similar, are exactly in the middle : hard-spin-orinented-rubbers. So you have PROs of both side of the philosophy.

And MAYBE, players like Dima or Timo, can make insane things even with a cooking pan.
 
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yes well probably the T05 or similar, are exactly in the middle : hard-spin-orinented-rubbers. So you have PROs of both side of the philosophy.

And MAYBE, players like Dima or Timo, can make insane things even with a cooking pan.

Soft rubbers are not spin oriented and hard rubbers are not speed oriented. The reality is more complicated. Carl gave a good summary but the best article is on thoughtsontabletennis where he explains the kinds of things that can affect looping arc. At lower impact speeds, all other things being equal, softer rubber have better arc but at higher impact speeds, harder rubbers have better arc. So the speed at which you generally swing can affect your perception of throw as well. Then there is brushing vs driving technique.

In the end it is a cool question but more important to just put the hours in at the table.
 
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NextLevel said:
At lower impact speeds, all other things being equal, softer rubber have better arc but at higher impact speeds, harder rubbers have better arc.
This is a generality. There is a optimal hardness/softness.
I will use a trampoline as an example.
if the trampoline rubber and springs are very hard you will not go down as much when you jump on it. It will feel stiff and you won't be able to jump very high. Think of the time you are in contact with the trampoline as "dwell time".
As the trampoline rubber and springs become a little softer the trampoline will absorb more energy and return more energy on the way up. Oooh, longer dwell time too.
However, if the springs are too soft the rate of returning energy to the jumper will be too low and will not return energy to the jumper. Think anti rubber. Dwell time is very good for anti rubbers.

Diving boards are another good example. Think about what happens when the fulcrum. What is best for a 70 kg diver and what is best for a 150 kg diver? Think of the time in contact with the board as dwell time. Each diver knows the best adjustment of the fulcrum for him to give the optimal spring.

My point is that there is a sweet spot if what you want is maximum spin or speed.
What makes me wonder is that the ball and paddle masses don't change that much so why are there so many different rubber products? They can't be that different.

In the end it is the force during the contact or dwell time at determines the trajectory of the ball. This is called an impulse. What impulse can one rubber generate that another can't? Normal inverted rubbers can generate the same impulse to get the same trajectories and another rubber but the force and dwell time may be different to get the same impulse so the stroke and feel will be different.

In the end it is a cool question but more important to just put the hours in at the table.
yes, and it is really a preference.

I hope I didn't ruin more of USDC's fun.
 
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This is a generality. There is a optimal hardness/softness.
I will use a trampoline as an example.
if the trampoline rubber and springs are very hard you will not go down as much when you jump on it. It will feel stiff and you won't be able to jump very high. Think of the time you are in contact with the trampoline as "dwell time".
As the trampoline rubber and springs become a little softer the trampoline will absorb more energy and return more energy on the way up. Oooh, longer dwell time too.
However, if the springs are too soft the rate of returning energy to the jumper will be too low and will not return energy to the jumper. Think anti rubber. Dwell time is very good for anti rubbers.

Diving boards are another good example. Think about what happens when the fulcrum. What is best for a 70 kg diver and what is best for a 150 kg diver? Think of the time in contact with the board as dwell time. Each diver knows the best adjustment of the fulcrum for him to give the optimal spring.

My point is that there is a sweet spot if what you want is maximum spin or speed.
What makes me wonder is that the ball and paddle masses don't change that much so why are there so many different rubber products? They can't be that different.

In the end it is the force during the contact or dwell time at determines the trajectory of the ball. This is called an impulse. What impulse can one rubber generate that another can't? Normal inverted rubbers can generate the same impulse to get the same trajectories and another rubber but the force and dwell time may be different to get the same impulse so the stroke and feel will be different.


yes, and it is really a preference.

I hope I didn't ruin more of USDC's fun.

The trampoline example is just as general as my statement and probably even more uninsightful to a practically minded table tennis player.

There are limits to the ability of human beings to generate and control their ranges of impulses as well as to read incoming spins and impulses. Even high level players know this so they try as hard as possible to develop and play with setups that perform as their playing instincts would predict over certain ranges.

There are also aspects of rubber design I didn't get into but topsheet grip matters a lot as well. In the end I am happy we agree that playing time matters the most. It's not purely a preference as once a person is locked into playing with a certain kind of equipment and optimizes his game to that kind of equipment, it is hard for them to switch to something dissimilar. Of course they could likely still beat someone below 250 USATT points below them using anything roughly similar, but such details matter when they play their equally fast peers and they matter even more when they are rushed and playing better players.
 
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says Spin and more spin.
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I would agree that: In terms of speed to spin ratio and those other fancy terms that have words like tangential and COR in them but basically get translated as throw angle: topsheet grip often has a lot more to do with throw angle than relative hardness would.

And the touch of a player, his level, his ability to feel the ball and control contact, often determines what the player can tell about things like those fancy terms.


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy
 
Well, it has been discussed many times here and it is true that there are some different statements about this and that and most of them are based on different experiences with different rubbers.

Generally regarding tenergy the situation is like this:

http://en.butterflymag.com/2015/06/all-about-tenergy-22/

But at the same time it can not be implemented directly to all other rubbers.
Neither regarding spin/speed ratio, nor throw.
So extrapolating equations is a matter of a given scenario rather than a general theory.
 
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The funny thing is pnachtwey used the term in his own response(surprisingly reasonable) for roughly the first year, before all of a sudden becoming self-aware like an AI and decided to go on a personal crusade to destroy any dialogue at every mention of the term.

It's been 7 years and I honestly think it's high time we got past the argument over nomenclature. It's getting nowhere. Any normal person would simply treat you like a cuckoo when you tell them "throw angle? I'm offended by that." Nobody cares if that term is not your cup of tea. Just move on.



With all that said, below is for those interested(ripped from Yasaka Catalog 2018 and TSP Catalog 2018)

HfNyXlc.png

Rakza X & Soft - Max grip
Rakza 7 & Soft - Spin-oriented
Rakza 9 & Soft - Speed-oriented

CX2V1Z7.png

Power transfer chart, X-axis = Input(how hard you hit), Y-axis = Output(how strong your shot)

yRA2OiS.png

Same thing but for Xtend series
The range each model performs the best
The softer one is more bouncy at low impact
The harder one shows it power at strong impact

rTBv6Dx.png

Who says a blade doesn't have throw angle?

2RfOSRW.jpg

Left chart, strong/weak impact for rubbers w/ ORC and those w/o
Right chart, swing speed(the higher, the stronger the impact), how Super/Speed/Spin/Soft compare with normal rubbers at the same sponge hardness
 
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says Spin and more spin.
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The next step after replacing "throw angle" by "the ratio of the tangential COR to the normal COR" would be to call it "throw angle" for short. I'd guess most people have a useful idea of what it means.

BTW: This really was an awesome post. :)
 
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[Heh? My post gone?]

[Looks like my previous post gone :'( ]

People to forget that throw angle is

Spectrum of values

Rather than

A value

And that explain the reason why defender like Me love Tackiness Chop (high throw at low speed, but when opponent smash, the rubber wall-ing it back), and

Looper love Tenergy 05 or Hurricane 3, they can speed as hard as they could. :)

d20dbd97aa8166b31e39efd867fad11e.jpg
 
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