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ttpshot
03-08-2018, 01:25 AM
Legalizing non VOC booster will be proposed at the next ITTF AGM on 1st of May, 2018.
75% of votes are needed for an approval.

https://d3mjm6zw6cr45s.cloudfront.net/2018/03/2018_AGM_propositions.pdf

------------------------------
Proposed by the Executive Committee and the Athletes Commission
To amend 2.4.7:
2.4.7 The racket covering shall be used without any physical, chemical or other
treatment that may be considered harmful or unhealthy for the persons.
Rationale:
1. It is impossible to control boosters with the current equipment/procedures, so the actual rule cannot
be enforced.
2. The main problem of the harmful substances in the way rubbers were collated to blades was mitigated
with the introduction of the VOC controls.
------------------------------

I'm all for it as it's impossible to detect non VOC booster and only players who currently don't boost gain from this proposal.
What do you think?

BeGo
03-08-2018, 01:33 AM
Legalizing non VOC booster will be proposed at the next ITTF AGM on 1st of May, 2018.
75% of votes are needed for an approval.

https://d3mjm6zw6cr45s.cloudfront.net/2018/03/2018_AGM_propositions.pdf

------------------------------
Proposed by the Executive Committee and the Athletes Commission
To amend 2.4.7:
2.4.7 The racket covering shall be used without any physical, chemical or other
treatment that may be considered harmful or unhealthy for the persons.
Rationale:
1. It is impossible to control boosters with the current equipment/procedures, so the actual rule cannot
be enforced.
2. The main problem of the harmful substances in the way rubbers were collated to blades was mitigated
with the introduction of the VOC controls.
------------------------------

I'm all for it as it's impossible to detect non VOC booster and only players who currently don't boost gain from this proposal.
What do you think?Agree.

That means ITTF could list legal boosters and,

Boosting must be done on the spot. ;)

btw, this post is not a sarcasm. ;)

Sent from my I7D using Tapatalk

jawien
03-08-2018, 02:12 AM
If not a joke, than Yes - seems reasonable.

"[...] introduction of the VOC controls". VOC controls?

NoFootwork
03-08-2018, 02:24 AM
I don't boost but I like this proposal. It gets rid of the gray area of allowing manufacturers to sell rubbers that have been boosted, yet players are not allowed to boost on their own.

The speed glue ban was based on health concerns (at least that's what Adham Sharara had claimed.) VOCs can be detected so speed glues cant be used.

Boosters don't have VOCs and there isn't any racket control to detect them directly other than if total rubber thickness exceeds 4mm. As far as I'm concerned its fine to use boosters as long as there isn't any health hazard associated with their use.

jawien
03-08-2018, 02:27 AM
[...]
Boosters don't have VOCs and there isn't any racket control to detect them directly other than if total rubber thickness exceeds 4mm. As far as I'm concerned its fine to use boosters as long as there isn't any health hazard associated with their use.

Sorry Guys, "boosters have no VOC's" or they have "VOC controls" ?

berndtjgmann
03-08-2018, 03:05 AM
If this here proposal actually passes (and it might)
Defenders can kiss their collective asses
Goodbye.

yogi_bear
03-08-2018, 03:41 AM
Legalize the boosters since factories boost the rubbers for the players anyway.

Baal
03-08-2018, 03:55 AM
Good. Overdue.

UpSideDownCarl
03-08-2018, 04:00 AM
The real question is, why did they ever ban the boosters in the first place. And since the top players are all boosting already anyway, I don't think this will make much difference. But it should be done.

berndtjgmann
03-08-2018, 05:04 AM
Good. Overdue.

You betcha.

Since boosting has been a fait accompli for some time now, this proposal should have no trouble passing. And once passed, manufacturers of boosting oils can legally also manufacture rubbers with boosters factory boosted. And players can legally boost these rubbers or any rubber suitable for boosting with a boosting oil they feel will give them the most bang for their buck.

Welcome, then, to a Brave New World of faster, spinnier table tennis through legalized new improved and ever evolving technology,

Whoopee. Three cheers. Huzzah. I guess.

amoc
03-08-2018, 05:34 AM
You betcha.

Since boosting has been a fait accompli for some time now, this proposal should have no trouble passing. And once passed, manufacturers of boosting oils can legally also manufacture rubbers with boosters factory boosted. And players can legally boost these rubbers or any rubber suitable for boosting with a boosting oil they feel will give them the most bang for their buck.

Welcome, then, to a Brave New World of faster, spinnier table tennis through legalized new improved and ever evolving technology,

Whoopee. Three cheers. Huzzah. I guess.

I don't think that anything will change if they legalize boosters. Because no one who wanted to boost ever stopped boosting because he hadn't to fear any consequences.

Loopadoop
03-08-2018, 05:44 AM
Good Idea

Der_Echte
03-08-2018, 05:49 AM
I double dare someone to boost/tune Berndt's drawers and car tires, so they perform better in the summer.

UpSideDownCarl
03-08-2018, 07:27 AM
I don't think that anything will change if they legalize boosters. Because no one who wanted to boost ever stopped boosting because he hadn't to fear any consequences.

I have actually heard rumor that berndtjgmann actually boosts his sandpaper. He just doesn't want the other sandpaper players to catch on.

berndtjgmann
03-08-2018, 07:46 AM
I double dare someone to boost/tune Berndt's drawers and car tires, so they perform better in the summer.

Dear Der,

Don't wear drawers and don't own a car. And the only thing that performs well in a Tucson summer is a Sonoran hot dog.

berndtjgmann
03-08-2018, 07:48 AM
I have actually heard rumor that berndtjgmann actually boosts his sandpaper. He just doesn't want the other sandpaper players to catch on.

You gotta be kidding me. Boosting sandpaper is for wusses. I sandblast it.

zeio
03-08-2018, 09:01 AM
Legalizing non VOC booster will be proposed at the next ITTF AGM on 1st of May, 2018.
75% of votes are needed for an approval.

https://d3mjm6zw6cr45s.cloudfront.net/2018/03/2018_AGM_propositions.pdf

------------------------------
Proposed by the Executive Committee and the Athletes Commission
To amend 2.4.7:
2.4.7 The racket covering shall be used without any physical, chemical or other
treatment that may be considered harmful or unhealthy for the persons.
Rationale:
1. It is impossible to control boosters with the current equipment/procedures, so the actual rule cannot
be enforced.
2. The main problem of the harmful substances in the way rubbers were collated to blades was mitigated
with the introduction of the VOC controls.
------------------------------

I'm all for it as it's impossible to detect non VOC booster and only players who currently don't boost gain from this proposal.
What do you think?
That's the interpretation of the magazine Table Tennis Kingdom, isn't it?

I don't know what the ITTF is gonna do with the amended T4 from last year.

https://d3mjm6zw6cr45s.cloudfront.net/2017/10/T4_Racket_Coverings_BOD2017.pdf_0.pdf

Suppliers that produce, market, sell, or are otherwise associated with illegal substances and
treatments may not apply for authorisation of any racket covering. Their equipment will not be
permitted to appear on the LARC, and may not use the ITTF logo.

zeio
03-08-2018, 09:23 AM
The real question is, why did they ever ban the boosters in the first place. And since the top players are all boosting already anyway, I don't think this will make much difference. But it should be done.
Very good question there.

It's the works of Adham Sharara, yet again.

To quote his "personal" stance on the issue,
http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=66229#p66229

I hate to say it, but probably because we trust (or should trust) the factories more in their handling of substances that may contain VOCs or harmful materials. They are better equipped than a 13 your old kid. My "personal" opinion is that if the ITTF gets into the business of approving boosters (or such substances) that are VOC-free, poison-free, and are made ecologically safe from natural substances, then why not allow it at all levels. But you have to understand our skepticism. We tested 5 so-called "safe" VOC-free boosters on the market and found VOCs in all of them, and poison in 2 of them. The distributors were convinced that these were totally safe. When we sent them the lab results, I believe at least 4 of the distributors stopped selling the boosters. So we are still at the early stage to be able to recognize totally safe boosters, but I am sure the day will come. But I am also sure that it may not be needed after all because of the expected progress in the new generation of rubbers and sponge.
My vision is that at ITTF-level events we would have refined racket testing that would detect low levels of VOC, would detect any alterations to the rubber and imposes strict controls on thickness of the racket covering. When this is safely in place, we could allow anything as long as the racket passes the test. But our main concern is putting in the hands of children substances that could cause them harm.

I'm glad you understand, of course I do not expect you to agree, but understanding the ITTF's position is already a positive step for me.

Adham

Brs
03-08-2018, 11:25 AM
Interesting quote about VOCs and poisons in the boosters. That's what emratthich said also. Why don't the boosted rubbers fail VOC testing then, have they off-gassed completely by check-in time?

In a perfect world ITTF would allow boosters and start enforcing the rules against hidden serves at the same time. Larry Hodges would think he was dreaming.

729B2zzzz
03-08-2018, 11:29 AM
i wonder what was tested "the 5"

zeio
03-08-2018, 02:11 PM
The VOC content threshold back in late 2008 was 5 ppm.
http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=4762

Then it was announced in Jul 2010 and further clarified in Aug 2010 that the target was:
4 ppm from Oct 7, 2009 to Aug 31, 2010;
3 ppm in Sep 1, 2010;
2 ppm in Sep 1, 2011.

Yet, in May 2011, the 2 ppm threshold was revoked after the Chinese TTA proposed for a temporary halt in face of the London Olympics. The threshold has been at 3 ppm ever since.


Proposed by the CHN TT Association
To modify Technical Leaflet T9, Racket Control (9.1):
9.1 Harmful volatile solvents measurement with MiniRAE-Lite®
The ITTF has banned volatile solvents from use on the racket. The limit has been decided by the ITTF Executive Committee as follows:
• from September 2009 to August 2010: maximum reading of 4,0 (4,0 is accepted);
• from September 2010 to August 2011: maximum reading of 3,0 (3,0 is accepted);
• from September 2011 to August 2012: maximum reading of 2,0 3,0 (2,0 3,0 is accepted).
Explanation:
Currently the tolerance of VOC is 3 ppm, and the limit will be reduced to 2 ppm in September 2011.
As we know, the London Olympic Games will be held in 2012, and too many changes to racket control regulations will be harmful for the players’ preparation work. If the players pay too much attention to racket control, it will be difficult for them to devote themselves to the competitions.
Therefore, they will not be able to display their best skills. Besides, the current calibration could hardly detect the minor difference between 3ppm to 2 ppm. For this reason, we suggest that the racket control regulations be kept stable during a certain period. It will be better to adjust the regulations every 4 years according to the Olympic Games period, instead of making changes every year. With the stable regulations, the players can concentrate in practicing and the technical level of our sport will be raised.

There you have it. Anything lower than 3 ppm gets you nothing but false positives. After years of messing around, they figured out 2 things. We couldn't detect it and we couldn't tell if the booster has been applied at the factory or not. Yay!!

sderyke2002
03-08-2018, 02:40 PM
Boosting to me seems to invalidate the idea that you are allowed to examine your opponents paddle to know what they are playing with. I mean you aren't allowed to touch the surface and clearly even the officials cannot tell if you boosted or not (which is why the rule is unenforceable). Therefore just by looking you cannot tell if they are playing with the Sriver you are familiar with or something that has been boosted to perform like Tenergy. The right to examination becomes meaningless if only one side is boosting.

That means the playing field is only even in the same sense that legalizing doping in cycling would be a level field if everyone did it. Do we really want to encourage everyone to dope? Boosting is just doping for bats. :)

That last part is just meant to be funny.

Ilia Minkin
03-08-2018, 02:42 PM
If this here proposal actually passes (and it might)
Defenders can kiss their collective asses
Goodbye.

Do defenders boost? I guess at the highest level they do, as they play with Tenergies on the forehand and 3rd-balling along with counterlooping is a big part of their game, at least for men.

zeio
03-08-2018, 03:22 PM
Examining the opponent's racket was written into the laws in 1983, along with the red/black rubber color rule and no foot-stomp. They were directed at Cai Zhenhua after he literally toyed with the top European players in the late 70s. They complained and lobbied for the rule change. Cai retired right after that. People only started speedgluing around that time.

Given that, one could argue speedgluing defeats the purpose of that rule. You can't tell what glue your opponent used to glue his/her Sriver, since not all glue was created equal. Kim Taek Soo was DQ at the WTTC 1995 after his rare win over Wang Tao, because he made his own glue by mixing 2 types of glue and it was not approved after the only ITTF approved glue law came into effect in 1993.

Same for thickness. The difference b/w 2.0mm and Max is rather small to the naked eyes.

sderyke2002
03-08-2018, 03:45 PM
Given that, one could argue speedgluing defeats the purpose of that rule.


I would agree - luckily speed gluing is already illegal and no one is talking about making it legal again - are they?

zeio
03-08-2018, 05:01 PM
It was unfortunate Sharara described it as racket-doping. Though the VOC part was bad, speedgluing was an equalizer, as some would have put it. One big argument over outlawing after-market booster is that it essentially puts those players from associations with lesser resources at a major disadvantage.

berndtjgmann
03-08-2018, 07:00 PM
(zero). It was unfortunate Sharara described it as racket-doping.

(bjgmann). Yes, that was unfortunate. How should Sharara have described speed gluing? Enhancing a racket's performance characteristics?

(zeio). Though the VOC part was bad, speed gluing was an equalizer, as some would have put it.

(bjgmann). Yes the VOC part was bad. Very very bad. So bad that cans of speed glue had warnings advising children not to use the stuff. Speedgluing an equalizer though? Huh? In what sense? That you had an equal chance of winning or getting beat if you speed glued?

(zeio). One big argument over outlawing after-market boosters is that it essentially puts those players from associations with lesser resources at a major disadvantage.

(bjgmann). Yeahboy. If your association doesn't have a Ministry of Sport or big bucks in its slush fund players from your association with lesser resources are necessarily gonna be at a major disadvantage.

Face it. Life ain't fair. And competitive table tennis is even more unfairer than life.

Baal
03-08-2018, 07:05 PM
The real question is, why did they ever ban the boosters in the first place. And since the top players are all boosting already anyway, I don't think this will make much difference. But it should be done.

Adham Sharara claimed that banning boosters was to protect the health of the players! And no, I am not conflating this with the ban on speed glue, which was also to protect the health of the players. Boosters emerged as a response to the speed glue ban, and Sharara actually said that -- bearing in mind that boosters are things like baby oil and tea tree oil and extracts of citrus, AND have to be essentially non-volatile to not be detected by VOC machines.

In fact, the ITTF has lied about their reasons for more than one rule change, mostly in the Sharara era. Now we are living with the absurdity of ITTF banning a substance that players can apply that is perfectly legal if the manufacturer applies it!

I have played with boosted rubber (by a professional player). It's effect is quite small compared to what we had with speed glue. In the days of speed glue and 38 mm balls, we had defenders. We will continue to have them. We will never have a lot of them. One poster here well known for his trolling and theatrics has as far as I can tell never played with a boosted modern rubber with a 40+ ball, probably never used speed glue much either, and can be safely ignored.

One of the good things about the disdain that the current ITTF president has for his predecessor is that maybe slowly some of the really dumb stuff that came into force earlier can be reversed. Among the dumbest of dumb things, this rule is number 1.

I hope they do it and do it soon. By the way, I don't use the stuff myself. The effect is not worth the effort it takes to do it right. I like knowing what my rubber will be like every time I play.

Baal
03-08-2018, 07:08 PM
It was unfortunate Sharara described it as racket-doping. Though the VOC part was bad, speedgluing was an equalizer, as some would have put it. One big argument over outlawing after-market booster is that it essentially puts those players from associations with lesser resources at a major disadvantage.

A big way it was an equalizer was that an inexpensive sheet of rubber could have high performance when glued.

Mytoman
03-08-2018, 07:44 PM
When "that may be considered harmful or unhealthy for the persons" is added: Will this make all other treatment of the rubber legal, or will 2.4.7.1 handle it? Keeping the rubbers in the sun, sand the rubbers down, add some tacky stuff on the rubber. Will it be legal to sand the rubber beyond +/- 0,10mm roughness (T4)??

(I can't really see if any of this could be helpful for my game, but hey.. that is innovation!)

If you can treat the rubbers like this - what is left of the autorisation system?

zeio
03-08-2018, 08:00 PM
That additional phrase can open up the floodgate.

On the pessimistic side, the ITTF could instead use that as an excuse to outlaw booster at will, say, if you don't pay up this amount of approval fee, I'm gonna ban you.

ttpshot
03-08-2018, 08:31 PM
That's the interpretation of the magazine Table Tennis Kingdom, isn't it?

I don't know what the ITTF is gonna do with the amended T4 from last year.

https://d3mjm6zw6cr45s.cloudfront.net/2017/10/T4_Racket_Coverings_BOD2017.pdf_0.pdf

Nope, this pdf was posted on the official ITTF WTTC website. So the intent of the proposal by the Athletes Commission is very clear; let us use the boosters.

ttpshot
03-08-2018, 08:34 PM
Adham Sharara claimed that banning boosters was to protect the health of the players! And no, I am not conflating this with the ban on speed glue, which was also to protect the health of the players. Boosters emerged as a response to the speed glue ban, and Sharara actually said that -- bearing in mind that boosters are things like baby oil and tea tree oil and extracts of citrus, AND have to be essentially non-volatile to not be detected by VOC machines.

In fact, the ITTF has lied about their reasons for more than one rule change, mostly in the Sharara era. Now we are living with the absurdity of ITTF banning a substance that players can apply that is perfectly legal if the manufacturer applies it!

I have played with boosted rubber (by a professional player). It's effect is quite small compared to what we had with speed glue. In the days of speed glue and 38 mm balls, we had defenders. We will continue to have them. We will never have a lot of them. One poster here well known for his trolling and theatrics has as far as I can tell never played with a boosted modern rubber with a 40+ ball, probably never used speed glue much either, and can be safely ignored.

One of the good things about the disdain that the current ITTF president has for his predecessor is that maybe slowly some of the really dumb stuff that came into force earlier can be reversed. Among the dumbest of dumb things, this rule is number 1.

I hope they do it and do it soon. By the way, I don't use the stuff myself. The effect is not worth the effort it takes to do it right. I like knowing what my rubber will be like every time I play.

There was a boy died from sniffing table tennis speed glue in Japan (thus JTTA's strong stance against any speed glues/boosters) so the effect on one's health is valid. Sharara's credibility, I'm not so sure.

zeio
03-08-2018, 08:39 PM
I know the ITTF posted it but there is no mention of legalization. However, the official site of magazine Table Tennis Kingdom has posted an entry on their interpretation(legalization) (http://world-tt.com/ps_info/ps_report_detail.php?bn=1&pg=HEAD&page=BACK&rpcdno=2532#2532) of the proposal.

As I have pointed out, they added a passage in T4 that intends to stop the distribution of aftermarket boosters.

ttpshot
03-08-2018, 08:40 PM
When "that may be considered harmful or unhealthy for the persons" is added: Will this make all other treatment of the rubber legal, or will 2.4.7.1 handle it? Keeping the rubbers in the sun, sand the rubbers down, add some tacky stuff on the rubber. Will it be legal to sand the rubber beyond +/- 0,10mm roughness (T4)??

(I can't really see if any of this could be helpful for my game, but hey.. that is innovation!)

If you can treat the rubbers like this - what is left of the autorisation system?

This rule was originally introduced to prevent exactly that. It'll do wonders to long pimples players if this interpretation is valid as they can make their own anti-LPs again.

ttpshot
03-08-2018, 08:43 PM
I know the ITTF posted it but there is no mention of legalization. However, the official site of magazine Table Tennis Kingdom has posted an entry on their interpretation(legalization) (http://world-tt.com/ps_info/ps_report_detail.php?bn=1&pg=HEAD&page=BACK&rpcdno=2532#2532) of the proposal.

As I have pointed out, they added a passage in T4 that intends to stop the distribution of aftermarket boosters.

Well if the rationale was "It is impossible to control boosters with the current equipment/procedures", I (and others in the thread) would interpret it as booster legalization. But you could be right and it could be for stopping players treating coverings with a chainsaw.

zeio
03-08-2018, 08:52 PM
No, the 40-year-old didn't die. He just fell unconscious for roughly 2 weeks from the fume when gluing at home. Butterfly had to recall over 120,000 bottles of "Super Long Chack" after that. It happened in March 2007. The ITTF had already decided to ban speedglue in 2006, which was postponed to 2008, after an ill-fated 1st attempt in 1993.

http://www.mhlw.go.jp/houdou/2007/05/h0510-1.html
http://www.stellamate-clinic.org/blog/2013/08/2007514-593667.html
https://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/re_trend/11139167.html

berndtjgmann
03-08-2018, 09:08 PM
Well if the rationale was "It is impossible to control boosters with the current equipment/procedures", I (and others in the thread) would interpret it as booster legalization. But you could be right and it could be for stopping players treating coverings with a chainsaw.

There are no current procedures nor is their any equipment in place to discourage players from treating their coverings with chainsaws.

I sm not making this up.

But if the current proposal to the ITTF passes, players can boost their rubbers with whatever non-VOC booster they feel will float their boat.

Chempong. To paraphrase a line from Robert Burns' A Man's a Man For a' That, "The Man (Mann, or troll) o' independent mind, he looks and laughs at a' that."

thomas.pong
03-08-2018, 10:32 PM
But if the current proposal to the ITTF passes, players can boost their rubbers with whatever non-VOC booster they feel will float their boat.

Yes, indeed, and they already are, and there's no detecting it... so maybe the ITTF should finally come clean on this one.

ttpshot
03-08-2018, 11:00 PM
No, the 40-year-old didn't die. He just fell unconscious for roughly 2 weeks from the fume when gluing at home. Butterfly had to recall over 120,000 bottles of "Super Long Chack" after that. It happened in March 2007. The ITTF had already decided to ban speedglue in 2006, which was postponed to 2008, after an ill-fated 1st attempt in 1993.

http://www.mhlw.go.jp/houdou/2007/05/h0510-1.html
http://www.stellamate-clinic.org/blog/2013/08/2007514-593667.html
https://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/re_trend/11139167.html

Ah, my bad. I must've mistaken it for toluene overdose accident.

Tryzerlol
03-08-2018, 11:04 PM
There are no current procedures nor is their any equipment in place to discourage players from treating their coverings with chainsaws.

I sm not making this up.

But if the current proposal to the ITTF passes, players can boost their rubbers with whatever non-VOC booster they feel will float their boat.

Chempong. To paraphrase a line from Robert Burns' A Man's a Man For a' That, "The Man (Mann, or troll) o' independent mind, he looks and laughs at a' that."

I bet you're so contra because the speed glue snoopery has taken it's toll

Baal
03-09-2018, 12:22 AM
There was a boy died from sniffing table tennis speed glue in Japan (thus JTTA's strong stance against any speed glues/boosters) so the effect on one's health is valid. Sharara's credibility, I'm not so sure.

Again speed glue abd booster aren't the same thing. Sharara did conflate them later.

zeio
03-09-2018, 09:21 AM
(zero). It was unfortunate Sharara described it as racket-doping.

(bjgmann). Yes, that was unfortunate. How should Sharara have described speed gluing? Enhancing a racket's performance characteristics?

(zeio). Though the VOC part was bad, speed gluing was an equalizer, as some would have put it.

(bjgmann). Yes the VOC part was bad. Very very bad. So bad that cans of speed glue had warnings advising children not to use the stuff. Speedgluing an equalizer though? Huh? In what sense? That you had an equal chance of winning or getting beat if you speed glued?

(zeio). One big argument over outlawing after-market boosters is that it essentially puts those players from associations with lesser resources at a major disadvantage.

(bjgmann). Yeahboy. If your association doesn't have a Ministry of Sport or big bucks in its slush fund players from your association with lesser resources are necessarily gonna be at a major disadvantage.

Face it. Life ain't fair. And competitive table tennis is even more unfairer than life.
https://i.imgur.com/XGhU3fS.jpg?1

Competitive sandpaper ping pong is even more fairer than hardbat.

What now?

zeio
03-09-2018, 11:01 AM
Below were the proposed amendments to T4. The wording can't get any clearer. In only 10 months' time, the ITTF is going to backtrack on its long-time stance against after-market boosting?


Proposed by the ITTF Equipment Committee
To amend Technical Leaflet T4 for Racket Coverings (update)
Rationale for Changes in T4, 2017
...
• Page 11: Companies that sell boosters should not be permitted to have ITTF authorized equipment.
Boosting is an illegal practice, and companies that sell the boosters are enabling and encouraging players to do this. At the same time, those companies are able to use the fact that they produce boosters for a special marketing advantage that can make their products seem more appealing. For example (these are not actual statements they have made):
o “Our rubbers are specially formulated to be used with our boosters.”
o “If you like our boosters, you can buy our rubbers that are pre-boosted to save you the trouble of boosting.”
o “If you like our rubbers but want something slightly different, just buy our booster and use it on a different rubber.”
Furthermore, as a general principle, the ITTF should avoid association with companies that encourage practices that violate ITTF rules.


10. Player's responsibilities
...Use of post-factory treatments is not permitted and may cause the racket covering to exceed the permitted thickness, friction, pimple density, etc.

Mytoman
03-09-2018, 11:56 AM
Below were the proposed amendments to T4. The wording can't get any clearer. In only 10 months' time, the ITTF is going to backtrack on its long-time stance against after-market boosting?

Of course they will have to change the T4! You can not have a technical leaflet in contradiction to the law. The EC is behind the proposal - they can not break the law!! There are several options on "how to" change it, including authorisation.

Probably someone should tweak the text in a way that allows booster/tuning, but not other treatment or change.

berndtjgmann
03-09-2018, 11:57 AM
https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/cache.php?img=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tabletennisdaily.com%2Fforum%2Fcache.php%3Fimg%3Dhttps%253A%252F%252Fwww.tabletennisdaily.com%252Fforum%252Fcache.php%253Fimg%253Dhttps%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.tabletennisdaily.com%25252Fforum%25252Fcache.php%25253Fimg%25253Dhttps%2525253A%2525252F%2525252Fwww.tabletennisdaily.com%2525252Fforum%2525252Fcache.php%2525253Fimg%2525253Dhttps%252525253A%252525252F%252525252Fwww.tabletennisdaily.com%252525252Fforum%252525252Fcache.php%252525253Fimg%252525253Dhttps%25252525253A%25252525252F%25252525252Fwww.tabletennisdaily.com%25252525252Fforum%25252525252Fcache.php%25252525253Fimg%25252525253Dhttps%2525252525253A%2525252525252F%2525252525252Fwww.tabletennisdaily.com%2525252525252Fforum%2525252525252Fcache.php%2525252525253Fimg%2525252525253Dhttps%252525252525253A%252525252525252F%252525252525252Fwww.tabletennisdaily.com%252525252525252Fforum%252525252525252Fcache.php%252525252525253Fimg%252525252525253Dhttps%25252525252525253A%25252525252525252F%25252525252525252Fwww.tabletennisdaily.com%25252525252525252Fforum%25252525252525252Fcache.php%25252525252525253Fimg%25252525252525253Dhttps%2525252525252525253A%2525252525252525252F%2525252525252525252Fi.imgur.com%2525252525252525252FXGhU3fS.jpg%2525252525252525253F1

Competitive sandpaper ping pong is even more fairer than hardbat.

What now?

Could be. And light years more fairer than soon to be mandated chempong featuring to each his or her own booster on top of an already boosted (or maybe not) wham-bam
spin to high Heaven smooth stuff for four or five shots or down here on Earth bamboozle 'em with pips or anti- from the neither regions of Hell.

Besides playing with sandpaper requires true grit (preferably around 240 grain or thereabouts).

What now? A WCPP 2018 World Platinum Tour. Possibility No. 2: Historically informed hard bat table tennis. Today's best hard bat players, incorporating the scholarship of the worldwide early music performance movement, endeavor to recapture the beauty, charisma and panache that was classic table tennis.

Baal
03-09-2018, 01:04 PM
One thing to bear in mind is that ITTF has a long history of ignoring the recommendations of their own Athlete's Commission. But new people run the show now so we shall see.

zeio
03-09-2018, 01:17 PM
Of course they will have to change the T4! You can not have a technical leaflet in contradiction to the law. The EC is behind the proposal - they can not break the law!! There are several options on "how to" change it, including authorisation.

Probably someone should tweak the text in a way that allows booster/tuning, but not other treatment or change.
That's why I have a hard time interpreting the new proposal as legalization of booster. They could've just removed the passages in T4 to start with instead of this. Adding that phrase won't do anything. They could still claim after-market boosting is considered harmful.

Baal
03-09-2018, 01:48 PM
That's why I have a hard time interpreting the new proposal as legalization of booster. They could've just removed the passages in T4 to start with instead of this. Adding that phrase won't do anything. They could still claim after-market boosting is considered harmful.

Here is a rare time when I disagree with Zeio. The phrase "harmful or unhealthy for the persons" would certainly allow a large number of substances which can produce some boosting effect. To list a few, there are baby oil, paraffin, eucalyptus oil, citrus oils, etc. They may not be quite as good as the latest Dianchi formulation but still work, and also the commercially sold boosters are probably not too different from these if we actually knew what the formulation was.

I hope they listen to the players this time. I suspect some of the rubber manufacturers will lobby against it because it would cut into the profits they make from adding these substances to sponge at the factory.

mart1nandersson
03-09-2018, 06:19 PM
15694

... meanwhile in a lot homes outside of China ;)

zeio
03-27-2018, 02:21 PM
In an entry by Japanese magazine Table Tennis Kingdom, it is reported that the proposal could be withdrawn (http://world-tt.com/ps_info/ps_report_detail.php?bn=1&pg=HEAD&page=BACK&rpcdno=2548#2548).

It's said that opposition from ESN has been getting stronger by the day. German TTA has expressed its disapproval for the proposal. JTTA has remained silent on the issue. The Executive Committee and Athlete Commission are expected to withdraw the proposal.

jawien
03-27-2018, 02:55 PM
In an entry by Japanese magazine Table Tennis Kingdom, it is reported that the proposal could be withdrawn (http://world-tt.com/ps_info/ps_report_detail.php?bn=1&pg=HEAD&page=BACK&rpcdno=2548#2548).

It's said that opposition from ESN has been getting stronger by the day. German TTA has expressed its disapproval for the proposal. JTTA has remained silent on the issue. The Executive Committee and Athlete Commission are expected to withdraw the proposal.

I imagine, a high tension rubbers producers would probably loose some market ...?

zeio
03-27-2018, 03:17 PM
Of all manufacturers, why would ESN, which relies so much on booster, be against the proposal?

Like I've written before, that rule if passed means the ITTF will have to define what is considered harmful. The folks will then need to create an approval list of boosters not unlike the LARC. That could be used by the ITTF to impose additional approval fees on manufacturers, when they are already doing the same thing right now without paying any fees.

That's exactly why I insisted that the whole thing doesn't make sense. Equipment Committee just got the no-aftermarket-booster amendments to the T4 passed last year. Why would the Executive Committee and Athlete Commission suggest something that goes against that will in less than a year? There are likely 2 opposing factions within the ITTF. Something fishy is going on.

jawien
03-27-2018, 03:20 PM
Of all manufacturers, why would ESN, which relies so much on booster, be against the proposal?

Like I've written before, that rule if passed means the ITTF will have to define what is considered harmful. The folks will then need to create an approval list of boosters not unlike the LARC. That could be used by the ITTF to impose additional approval fees on manufacturers, when they are already doing the same thing right now without paying any fees.

That's exactly why I insisted that the whole thing doesn't make sense. Equipment Committee just got the no-aftermarket-booster amendments to the T4 passed last year. Why would the Executive Committee and Athlete Commission suggest something that goes against that will in less than a year? There are likely 2 opposing factions within the ITTF. Something fishy is going on.

Interesting. But if boosting was legal, I imagine many people would turn to the cheaper rubbers like good old srivers ... ?

darucla
03-27-2018, 03:30 PM
And if boosting is legal, the need to replace factory boosted rubber every couple of months disappears. Hits ESN where it hurts.

zeio
03-27-2018, 03:48 PM
Booster is not to be confused with gluing. The difference is night and day. As things stand, people have been boosting their rubbers for years, whether boosting is legal or not. Many of the folks at my club were boosting Sriver when gluing was first banned, but soon they all moved on to Tenergy and ESN offerings. Why? Price and performance. Sriver doesn't respond well to boosters. Porous rubbers simply played better.

Baal
03-27-2018, 11:58 PM
Bummer if they don't change it

zeio
03-28-2018, 12:13 AM
I want to see it passed as well. I want to see what they're really up to and how they will handle the contradiction in T4.

Overseer Kevin
03-29-2018, 06:56 PM
"Juice" - that's my name at the club because I'm the booster (juice) guy everyone comes to with all the questions. Can you do my tenergy... hurricane...mxp...etc. I don't mind at all of they legalize it. Finally the average guy can do to the rubber what manufacturers do. And when the manufacturers tuning wares of, we can retune the rubber without the moral conflict of legal vs illegal.

729B2zzzz
04-03-2018, 05:59 AM
so did it pass or get added in? or nothing still atm?

zeio
04-03-2018, 06:10 AM
It won't be voted on until the AGM starting at the end of this April, alongside the WTTC.

sderyke2002
04-03-2018, 05:29 PM
I remember back in the 1970's we cleaned our rubber (to get the dust off) with glycerin (used to apply it with the back of a spoon) and washed it off with a stream of hot water.

Maybe I was boosting back then and didn't even know it. Or maybe that whole approach is just bad for the rubber and we were fooling ourselves.

zeio
04-11-2018, 10:10 AM
Ladies and gentlemen! That's it. The news is in. The proposal has been withdrawn.

German TTA complained. ESN complained. Several manufacturers complained. Pundits complained.

It's decided a working group will be formed to look for a simple way to inspect rackets. Take it to mean boosting will be condoned.

Here I await the formal apologies from those who doubted me.

729B2zzzz
04-11-2018, 01:53 PM
ahh ok cheers dude so a working group will be formed to try and stop it till then its accepted ?

zeio
04-11-2018, 03:49 PM
They're still against post-factory boosting. The working group is just a mere empty promise to quell the anger of those who complain about blatant boosting.

yuri.saldon
04-11-2018, 06:06 PM
Ladies and gentlemen! That's it. The news is in. The proposal has been withdrawn.

German TTA complained. ESN complained. Several manufacturers complained. Pundits complained.

It's decided a working group will be formed to look for a simple way to inspect rackets. Take it to mean boosting will be condoned.

Here I await the formal apologies from those who doubted me.Great news!

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk

Dan.1
05-05-2018, 07:41 AM
So boosting is still illegal or boosting will be allowed now?

zeio
05-05-2018, 08:14 AM
No, still illegal for aftermarket boosting. Well, boost to your heart's content if you don't play in any ITTF events. They couldn't care less.

729B2zzzz
05-05-2018, 04:43 PM
exactly as zeio said

igorponger
05-06-2018, 08:31 AM
HAPPY CROOKS.

It is a common knowledge that China players all are using illegal rubbers as supplied by DHS manufacturer directly to the National training center. And those ''special version'' rubbers (wrapped in white coversheets) have never been approved by ITTF and not being supplied for retail.

https://tennis-tavolo.com/threads/01-07-2009-e-legalizzato-il-booster.16696/page-7#post-558996

http://mytabletennis.net/forum/uploads/14298/happy_crooks2.jpg

BeGo
05-29-2018, 09:24 PM
In case You have forgot, ITF approved top sheet, not sponge, and,

ITTF (currently) ban boosting, but did not ban any production step for the aforementioned rubber, so,

Sadly, what CNT doing is not illegal, for now. I am admit that the practice is unfair, but I rather point finger to ITTF for making such "holely" rules. ;)
HAPPY CROOKS.

It is a common knowledge that China players all are using illegal rubbers as supplied by DHS manufacturer directly to the National training center. And those ''special version'' rubbers (wrapped in white coversheets) have never been approved by ITTF and not being supplied for retail.

https://tennis-tavolo.com/threads/01-07-2009-e-legalizzato-il-booster.16696/page-7#post-558996

http://mytabletennis.net/forum/uploads/14298/happy_crooks2.jpg

Sent from my i5E using Tapatalk

igorponger
05-30-2018, 01:29 AM
Dear BeGo, I would ask for your special attention to this ITTF directives from the year 2009. Take note here, all those directives do remaine in force up today.


5.2 MANUFACTURERS AND DISTRIBUTORS

5.2.1 The ITTF will be very strict with Manufacturers, Suppliers and
Distributors that are on the ITTF’s list of Authorized Racket
Coverings that still produce illegal materials such a VOC-glues,
or any type of additive such as Boosters, Tuners, oils, etc.

5.2.2 The ITTF is extremely disappointed with those manufacturers
who are secretly providing illegal substances for their sponsored
players to use. This is totally UNACCEPTABLE and is
considered an illegal act and cheating.

5.2.3 Any manufacturer or distributor found producing, selling, or
providing any illegal substance to players or coaches will be
considered in violation of ITTF rules and will be suspended
indefinitely from any ITTF activity, and the authorization to use
the ITTF logo will be immediately withdrawn. This measure is
according to our discussions with FIT, the Federation of
International Table tennis Manufacturers.

5.2.4 The ITTF Executive Committee will also set hefty fees for the reintroduction
of any suspended manufacturer or distributor after
the suspension period is completed or lifted.

5.2.5 The ITTF will make no exception in this matter and
sponsorships, advertising agreements, etc., will all be cancelled
immediately and the already paid sums forfeited.

5.2.6 It is a serious offence to sell, procure, be involved in the
procurement, give for free or make available any additive to
players and coaches.

5.2.7 With this message the ITTF issues a stern warning to ALL
manufacturers and distributors to observe and respect the ITTF rules
as they are now set.

5.2.8 The ITTF will be very strict with regard to the thickness of the
racket coverings. The ITTF Equipment Committee has already
alerted several manufacturers from producing maximum
thickness racket coverings of 4mm. With the addition of a layer
of glue, the racket covering may exceed the allowable thickness.
It is therefore recommended that the manufacturers allow for
this fact and produce racket coverings below the allowed
maximum.

5.2.9 ADVICE TO MANUFACTURERS:

5.2.9.1 Do not produce any substances that are used as
additives by the players after the equipment has been
approved by the ITTF.

5.2.9.2 Do not produce a maximum thickness of 4mm racket
covering, please follow the advice of the ITTF’s
Equipment Committee to allow for the thickness of the
glue layers.

5.2.9.3 Please print the maximum racket covering thickness
on the packaging wherever possible.

5.2.9.4 Do not provide to players and coaches any postfactory
additives of any kind.

5.2.9.5 You can put the rubber under tension at the factory as
long as it meets the ITTF specifications and passes
the ITTF tests.

5.2.9.6 Do not stretch or put the rubber in tension AFTER it
has been approved.

5.2.9.7 You can use VOC-containing elements, within the
limits allowable in your country, in the production
phase of the racket covering as long as you get rid of
5
all the VOCs before packaging through proper and
sufficient airing of the racket covering before
packaging and as long as this is done at the factory
level and does not violate ITTF rules. This would be
considered a production phase.

5.2.9.8 The final product cannot be different than the product
approved by the ITTF.

5.2.9.9 The ITTF authorisation applies to a racket covering as
originally submitted and tested; its subsequent alteration, by a supplier,
a player or anyone else, is not permitted.

5.2.9.10 Changes from the original design will normally not be
permitted. However, changes to the text area only may be allowed,
and must be confirmed.

5.2.9.11 When in doubt, please consult the ITTF Equipmen Committee.

THE END OF DOCUMENT.

zeio
05-30-2018, 04:02 AM
The ITTF has started approving topsheet and sponge as a pair, ever since 2010, IIRC, after booster became prominent.

mart1nandersson
05-30-2018, 01:27 PM
The ITTF has started approving topsheet and sponge as a pair, ever since 2010, IIRC, after booster became prominent.

So how come that there're 5-10 different versions of H3 with the same certification number?

igorponger
05-30-2018, 02:33 PM
So how come that there're 5-10 different versions of H3 with the same certification number?

Chinese DHS is a cunning manufacturer, and the Japanese Butterfly is a good reputation.

http://mytabletennis.net/forum/uploads/14298/happy_crooks_dishonest_champions.jpg

mart1nandersson
05-30-2018, 02:55 PM
It was not the boosting I was referring to. Forget the commercial vs provincial vs national and look at the sponge. There’re at least four different sponges (19, 20, 21 and 22) and they all have the same certification number. My conclusion is that the sponge is not part of the certification.

igorponger
05-30-2018, 03:02 PM
CHINESE USING ILLEGAL SANDWICH RUBBERS.

https://d3mjm6zw6cr45s.cloudfront.net/2016/12/2017_ITTF_Handbook.pdf


3. Regulations for International Competitions.

3.2.1.3 Any ordinary pimpled rubber or sandwich rubber covering the racket
shall be currently authorised by the ITTF and shall be attached to the blade so that the
ITTF logo, the ITTF number (when present), the supplier and brand names are clearly
visible nearest the handle.
Lists of all approved and authorised equipment and materials are maintained
by the ITTF Office and details are available on the ITTF website

Here is the updated edition of the International Regulations, it says clearly -- player can't use rubber-sponge combination other than those tested by ITTF laboratory and having passed the tests.
China elite players do use sponge that never been tested by ITTF, it is not a legit sponge anyway.

Suga D
05-30-2018, 03:40 PM
Sorry Igor, but this is rubbish IMO. Just use your brain for a minute:

what about the Players using ox lp or ox sp who glue any kind of sponge underneath their ox Rubbers (sometimes it´s not even a sponge, just a cloth for dampening. I know there might not be many players using those, but hey that doesn´t mean they don´t exist. They are there.
Now following your logic, those should be prohibited as well, and they´re definitely legal...

- just my 2 ct -

zeio
05-31-2018, 01:47 AM
So how come that there're 5-10 different versions of H3 with the same certification number?

The specific lines go like this.

https://d3mjm6zw6cr45s.cloudfront.net/2017/10/T4_Racket_Coverings_BOD2017.pdf_0.pdf

B. Quantitative Criteria
1. The racket covering
It should be noted in particular that:
Authorisation is given to the top sheet plus the top sheet / sponge combination. Red and black top sheets with the same ITTF number or supplier and brand name must have the same geometry, properties, and branding area (wording and numbering). The surface colours must be uniform. Red and black top sheets of the same brand do not require separate authorisation fees.
They added the phrase "top sheet / sponge combination" because folks argued the ITTF didn't authorize the sponge and hence booster should be allowed. OTOH, ITTF, or specifically Sharara, argued that expanding the sponge would expand the topsheet as well and that would be a violation to the authorization.

From what I understand, the phrase is added there merely to patch the loophole and weed out boosting. They couldn't care less about all the combinations of the same topsheet with different sponge.

BeGo
05-31-2018, 01:22 PM
The specific lines go like this.

https://d3mjm6zw6cr45s.cloudfront.net/2017/10/T4_Racket_Coverings_BOD2017.pdf_0.pdf

They added the phrase "top sheet / sponge combination" because folks argued the ITTF didn't authorize the sponge and hence booster should be allowed. OTOH, ITTF, or specifically Sharara, argued that expanding the sponge would expand the topsheet as well and that would be a violation to the authorization.

From what I understand, the phrase is added there merely to patch the loophole and weed out boosting. They couldn't care less about all the combinations of the same topsheet with different sponge.This would means, changing sponge for a rubber, including de-ox-ing LPs, shall be illegal.

ITTF should stamp and seal sandwich rubbers. :(

I would cry. :'(

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darucla
05-31-2018, 02:59 PM
There are some Korean and Japanese players using H3 with Blue Sponge. Presumably they should be world champs as well. Having tried it, I find there is a difference, but not so much as is made out.

Mytoman
05-31-2018, 03:36 PM
This would means, changing sponge for a rubber, including de-ox-ing LPs, shall be illegal.

ITTF should stamp and seal sandwich rubbers. :(

I would cry. :'(

Sent from my i5E using TapatalkAny sponge under a no sponge ox (that is in the LARC) is ok. Source URC FAQ.

Sent fra min SM-A520F via Tapatalk

Suga D
05-31-2018, 06:08 PM
Any sponge under a no sponge ox (that is in the LARC) is ok. Source URC FAQ.

Sent fra min SM-A520F via Tapatalk

So can someone explain to me how this is different to orange/blue sponge H3N then?


There are some Korean and Japanese players using H3 with Blue Sponge. Presumably they should be world champs as well.

There ya go.
And exactly there lies the loophole in Igor's accusations and his "theory"!

BeGo
06-04-2018, 10:39 AM
Any sponge under a no sponge ox (that is in the LARC) is ok. Source URC FAQ.

Sent fra min SM-A520F via Tapatalkcould You post the exact passage here, Myto? :)

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Mytoman
06-04-2018, 11:01 AM
could You post the exact passage here, Myto? :)

Sent from my I7D using Tapatalk

1.8. Use of a different sponge . At the beginning of a match, A protests that X is using a racket with a racket covering (Prashida 1615 Long) which is different from its original version , (the original version is long pimple with no sponge below, but X's racket covering is long pimple with a sponge below). X says he was using this racket for the 3 past matches, and no one complained. What action should the referee take?: No action as it is ALLOWED