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TableTennisDaily
04-06-2018, 07:17 AM
Incredible news just in from Japan! Tomokazu Harimoto has just defeated world number 1 Fan Zhendong at the Asian Cup! (https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/showthread.php?17460-Asian-Cup-2018)

Here's some footage of the event here:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BumusfekP_k

This is massive news with the World Team Championships taking place in a few weeks time!

Giangt
04-06-2018, 07:18 AM
Wow 3-1! A match I would like to watch!

ping fun
04-06-2018, 07:20 AM
No wayyyyy .... howwww??? I never wanted this to happen .ah and I found out LGY lost too ... not a surprising one . Even not an upset . I just wanna know when he's gonna be a top chinese player after these many defeats ?? China must do something . They dont have enough promising young players as before ( ml , zjk, xx ) .

Atas Newton
04-06-2018, 07:35 AM
No one saw that coming! And no one saw that happen either :-)

zeio
04-06-2018, 07:42 AM
Most OVERRATED No.1 ever.

On a serious note, that's the cost of supercompensation. Most CNT players are now at the trough of the performance curve ahead of the WTTC. Expect them to peak at the end of the month.

Julien Jo Bieganski
04-06-2018, 07:47 AM
FZD will take his revenge ...

ttpshot
04-06-2018, 07:48 AM
And he's only 14...? Amazing considering he doen't even practice full time. Looking forward to the day when he graduates school and Elite Academy and turns full time professional table tennis player.

Atas Newton
04-06-2018, 07:51 AM
Most OVERRATED No.1 ever.

On a serious note, that's the cost of supercompensation. Most CNT players are now at the trough of the performance curve ahead of the WTTC. Expect them to peak at the end of the month.
Japanese players will peak at the end of the month too.

Julien Jo Bieganski
04-06-2018, 07:59 AM
15 now.
FZD won a pro tour a 15 or 16 ...

drunix80
04-06-2018, 08:01 AM
Completed shocked by this news !!!

zeio
04-06-2018, 08:02 AM
He won't turn 15 until Jun 27.

TableTennisDaily
04-06-2018, 08:07 AM
A longer video on our Instagram page here. (https://www.instagram.com/p/BhOLdM9HMOY/?hl=en&taken-by=tabletennisdaily)

langel
04-06-2018, 08:11 AM
Impatient to see the full match

zeio
04-06-2018, 08:13 AM
Japanese players will peak at the end of the month too.
Not if you have followed them closely for several years. Ishikawa is the perfect counterexample. Mizutani peaked at the right time once at Rio. The JNT still hasn't cracked the code when it comes to peaking at the right time. WCT of Hong Kong has spoken he had always peaked at the wrong time. Germany, South Korea and Sweden are the other 3 countries who have managed it consistently at various points in history.

mikechow
04-06-2018, 08:20 AM
No wayyyyy .... howwww??? I never wanted this to happen .ah and I found out LGY is out too ... not a surprising one . Even not an upset . I just wanna know when he's gonna be a top chinese player after these many defeats ?? China must do something . They dont have enough promising young players as before ( ml , zjk, xx ) .

Just lost in the group stage. They will be back!

ajtatosmano2
04-06-2018, 08:27 AM
Not only the group no. 1 goes further?

ping fun
04-06-2018, 08:27 AM
Just lost in the group stage. They will be back!

Wow ... is there any chance they meet again ? I mean fzd and harimoto ?

TTLondon2012
04-06-2018, 08:28 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuxZQErXHys

ping fun
04-06-2018, 08:29 AM
And he's only 14...? Amazing considering he doen't even practice full time. Looking forward to the day when he graduates school and Elite Academy and turns full time professional table tennis player.

How u know he doesnt practice full time?? These victories certainly are the result of hard trainings .

langel
04-06-2018, 08:31 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgLfOrVJJMg

WorkerBee
04-06-2018, 09:06 AM
No one saw that coming! And no one saw that happen either :-)Liu Guoliang predicted a six year battle coming up between Tomo and Little Fatty in which Tomo will establish his dominance as number one if the Japanese coaches can continue to guide him. He pointed out that it is both Tomo's natural abilities and the intense Chinese training Tomo received from 3 years old onwards from his two professional Chinese parents that makes him so strong.

bbkon
04-06-2018, 09:07 AM
pingfun you dont know nothing if you think harimoto is not training full time. your nickname tells the whole history. your post is a joke

Jimbob MacInbred
04-06-2018, 09:35 AM
How u know he doesnt practice full time?? These victories certainly are the result of hard trainings .

Harimoto himself confirmed in an interview ("Ask a pro anything") with Bobrow last year that he "only" practices 3 - 4 hours a day... (from minute 1.30 on)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXWTul3yAZk

NextLevel
04-06-2018, 09:39 AM
Poor LGY, he may now get FZD in the semis or an earlier round...

Atas Newton
04-06-2018, 09:41 AM
professional Chinese parents.
I like this expression :-)

NextLevel
04-06-2018, 09:44 AM
Harimoto himself confirmed in an interview ("Ask a pro anything") with Bobrow last year that he "only" practices 3 - 4 hours a day... (from minute 1.30 on)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXWTul3yAZk

How many players do you know who practice 3-4 hours a day? That is professional level no matter how you down play it. The verbal report also lacks credibility as it doesn't reflect intensity or how he decides when he feels like doing more or less...

NDH
04-06-2018, 09:46 AM
Ohhhhhhh he got a filthy edge to win!

Nothing worse than winning the match of your life but having some of the excitement taken away due to the luck of an edge.

BeGo
04-06-2018, 09:51 AM
Liu Guoliang predicted a six year battle coming up between Tomo and Little Fatty in which Tomo will establish his dominance as number one if the Japanese coaches can continue to guide him. He pointed out that it is both Tomo's natural abilities and the intense Chinese training Tomo received from 3 years old onwards from his two professional Chinese parents that makes him so strong.Tomo play style definitely Japanese though. That upright backhand block is the giveaway. :)

Sent from my i5E using Tapatalk

VSDG
04-06-2018, 10:16 AM
Except his forehand is more powerful than almost all other Japanese players.

ping fun
04-06-2018, 10:26 AM
pingfun you dont know nothing if you think harimoto is not training full time. your nickname tells the whole history. your post is a joke

Are u okey ?? You have problem in your eyes . Pls read carefully what i wrote and dont jump in posts like u know alot which is funnier .

What i wrote : How u know he doesnt practice full time?? These victories certainly are the result of hard trainings .

Brad_Adams
04-06-2018, 10:48 AM
Wow ... is there any chance they meet again?
P.S. Their expression is amazing :)

jamesmith
04-06-2018, 11:47 AM
let wait until the tournament finish first to see who are the best

ronz91
04-06-2018, 11:57 AM
Good thing Harimoto didn't quit TT after the last loss to CNT player as was suggested by someone on these forums :p

brodolio
04-06-2018, 12:46 PM
FZD fully deserve to be the n.1 at the moment.
To me he lost against Harimoto probably becasue he had a bad day. But let's wait the full match video.

Still Tomokazu did a fantastic job:cool:

ttpshot
04-06-2018, 12:57 PM
How u know he doesnt practice full time?? These victories certainly are the result of hard trainings .

I'm going to warn you in advance. It's going to be a long post.

How do I know? Well, I've been involved with U12 scene in Japan for 10 years due to my daughter's involvement as a competitive junior player. There are lots of people who know better but I think I know more than the most.

First of all, I don't believe in practicing long hours. Training hard with good coaches and partners is necessary and you'd choose quality over quantity if you had to make a choice. Having said that, putting certain numbers of practice hours is a must for top players as coaches in this forum would agree.

Before I get into Harimoto's practice routine, let me explain the current U12 scene in Japan.

In Japan, the National tournament is held every year for U12/U10/U8 categories. Top players in U12 are then recruited by private school and Elite Academy. 99% of current top players have performed well in these tournaments (notable exception is Oshima). The importance of practicing long hard hours from very young age have been recognized ever since Ai Fukuhara's practice with her mum was televised 25 years ago. According to the survey conducted at U12 national tournament a few years ago, more than half of the participants practice more than 20 hours per week, 20% have put in 30+ hours and few have even clocked 40+. And that's with either your parents or hired coach from China (eg. Matsudaira, Hirano, Ito).

My daughter's club didn't have that luxury, just like most other junior clubs in Japan. Sure she practiced 4 hours in a week day and 6 hours in the weekend but she was always beaten by kids that were privately coached or had parents who owned junior club themselves.

So when Harimoto won U8 tournament aged 7 (back then he was Zhang with Chinese nationality), we were like "Right, another kid with Chinese parents who devoted their life to their kids". But the fact was quite different as we got to know about them more and more by talking to them occasionally or hearing about them when we see them at the tournaments.

It turns out, he was closer to "us" than "them" in terms of environment. His parents were hired by Sendai junior club as a full time coach so they didn't have time to teach Harimoto privately except for their off days when they spend about an hour with him. We didn't believe them at first. How could a boy so exceptionally good and absolutely dominates his age group only practice 2 hours a day and even that's with other members of his club so he has to pick the balls and share the table just like everyone else. Well, they weren't lying and by the time he won the national tournament 6 years in a row in 2015(beating a boy from my club on the way), no one was sure of how far he would go when he starts devoting all his time to table tennis. That year, he was already beating U18 national champion as well as some top senior player in Japan.

That almost happened in 2016 when he had to make a choice after graduating primary school. In the end he chose the Elite Academy which was and still is funded by JOC and other governing bodies. Because it's state funded, minimum academic standard must be met and you need to attend unrelated course and seminar such as media presentation organized by the Elite Academy. It means that typical week day only allows 2-3 hours of practice. This is a stark contrast from top private schools in Japan where scouted players finish school on 2pm and practice 6 to 8 hours per day. It was no surprise that until Harimoto and Hirano, there were hardly any top players produced by the Elite Academy. Players like Hirano and Miu Kato probably made a right choice by leaving the Academy before the age limit of 18.

So, back to my original statement. I'm looking forward to the day he graduates Elite Academy and devotes all his time playing table tennis. He has already achieved more than most players on this planet even if he retires today. I somehow feel there's lot more to come.

Ilia Minkin
04-06-2018, 02:11 PM
April fools?

Free bird
04-06-2018, 02:16 PM
Fzd’ Loss just makes it more interesting. There is a good chance they’ll meet again in the final if Harimoto can beat lgy. You’ll see the real fzd

langel
04-06-2018, 02:31 PM
Harimoto himself confirmed in an interview ("Ask a pro anything") with Bobrow last year that he "only" practices 3 - 4 hours a day... (from minute 1.30 on)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXWTul3yAZk

Yes, and at 5.20 he says that he will work harder than he did when he was 13.
So now he is practicing 3-4 hours a day, and till 13 he has been practicing less.

cfagyal
04-06-2018, 02:37 PM
April fools?

Nope: See here: https://d3mjm6zw6cr45s.cloudfront.net/2018/04/Stage-1_MS4.pdf

drunix80
04-06-2018, 02:38 PM
Fzd’ Loss just makes it more interesting. There is a good chance they’ll meet again in the final if Harimoto can beat lgy. You’ll see the real fzd

Will the real slim shady please stand up in the final !!!! But either way history has been made. Only foreigner that FZD lost to for a long long time was Dima and that one was hard fought match. This is unprecedented. I remember LGL's comments during WTTC FZD vs HM that FZD is showing HM who is the big bro. This is like Hirano moment for CNT Men's team.

langel
04-06-2018, 02:42 PM
Still no footage!? Its a TT shame :mad:

ping fun
04-06-2018, 02:47 PM
I'm going to warn you in advance. It's going to be a long post.

How do I know? Well, I've been involved with U12 scene in Japan for 10 years due to my daughter's involvement as a competitive junior player. There are lots of people who know better but I think I know more than the most.

First of all, I don't believe in practicing long hours. Training hard with good coaches and partners is necessary and you'd choose quality over quantity if you had to make a choice. Having said that, putting certain numbers of practice hours is a must for top players as coaches in this forum would agree.

Before I get into Harimoto's practice routine, let me explain the current U12 scene in Japan.

In Japan, the National tournament is held every year for U12/U10/U8 categories. Top players in U12 are then recruited by private school and Elite Academy. 99% of current top players have performed well in these tournaments (notable exception is Oshima). The importance of practicing long hard hours from very young age have been recognized ever since Ai Fukuhara's practice with her mum was televised 25 years ago. According to the survey conducted at U12 national tournament a few years ago, more than half of the participants practice more than 20 hours per week, 20% have put in 30+ hours and few have even clocked 40+. And that's with either your parents or hired coach from China (eg. Matsudaira, Hirano, Ito).

My daughter's club didn't have that luxury, just like most other junior clubs in Japan. Sure she practiced 4 hours in a week day and 6 hours in the weekend but she was always beaten by kids that were privately coached or had parents who owned junior club themselves.

So when Harimoto won U8 tournament aged 7 (back then he was Zhang with Chinese nationality), we were like "Right, another kid with Chinese parents who devoted their life to their kids". But the fact was quite different as we got to know about them more and more by talking to them occasionally or hearing about them when we see them at the tournaments.

It turns out, he was closer to "us" than "them" in terms of environment. His parents were hired by Sendai junior club as a full time coach so they didn't have time to teach Harimoto privately except for their off days when they spend about an hour with him. We didn't believe them at first. How could a boy so exceptionally good and absolutely dominates his age group only practice 2 hours a day and even that's with other members of his club so he has to pick the balls and share the table just like everyone else. Well, they weren't lying and by the time he won the national tournament 6 years in a row in 2015(beating a boy from my club on the way), no one was sure of how far he would go when he starts devoting all his time to table tennis. That year, he was already beating U18 national champion as well as some top senior player in Japan.

That almost happened in 2016 when he had to make a choice after graduating primary school. In the end he chose the Elite Academy which was and still is funded by JOC and other governing bodies. Because it's state funded, minimum academic standard must be met and you need to attend unrelated course and seminar such as media presentation organized by the Elite Academy. It means that typical week day only allows 2-3 hours of practice. This is a stark contrast from top private schools in Japan where scouted players finish school on 2pm and practice 6 to 8 hours per day. It was no surprise that until Harimoto and Hirano, there were hardly any top players produced by the Elite Academy. Players like Hirano and Miu Kato probably made a right choice by leaving the Academy before the age limit of 18.

So, back to my original statement. I'm looking forward to the day he graduates Elite Academy and devotes all his time playing table tennis. He has already achieved more than most players on this planet even if he retires today. I somehow feel there's lot more to come.

Complete explanation and good info . So we should wait for big titles from this wonderkid . No one deny his talent . But we are sure that china will find a way to stop his plans . Thats gonna be intrresting what will harimoto get from this asian cup but again i say he got what he wanted . Winning FZD . He got the self confident he wanted in facing chinese .

Andy44
04-06-2018, 02:58 PM
The draw (https://d3mjm6zw6cr45s.cloudfront.net/2018/04/Stage-2_MS.pdf). Harimoto could face LGY in the semifinals and FZD in the finals. FZD vs Koki Niwa in the quarters and probably Lee Sangsu in the semifinals.

ttpshot
04-06-2018, 03:12 PM
Complete explanation and good info . So we should wait for big titles from this wonderkid . No one deny his talent . But we are sure that china will find a way to stop his plans . Thats gonna be intrresting what will harimoto get from this asian cup but again i say he got what he wanted . Winning FZD . He got the self confident he wanted in facing chinese .

I think so too. This is just a beginning and there will be a fierce rivalry between FZD and Harimoto for years to come. I’m looking forward to that. China, was probably waiting for some rivalry too as they must get bored of watching all Chinese finals year after year.

ping fun
04-06-2018, 03:26 PM
I think so too. This is just a beginning and there will be a fierce rivalry between FZD and Harimoto for years to come. I’m looking forward to that. China, was probably waiting for some rivalry too as they must get bored of watching all Chinese finals year after year.

That's what LGL wanted .... he is missed by fans and players now .

Loopadoop
04-06-2018, 03:53 PM
Rumor: Harimoto said FZD played better than I thought he would

Atas Newton
04-06-2018, 04:03 PM
The draw (https://d3mjm6zw6cr45s.cloudfront.net/2018/04/Stage-2_MS.pdf). Harimoto could face LGY in the semifinals
please let this be the case, I've been waiting for this match since Tomo's breakthrough. Their playing styles should make for a spectacular match.

Free bird
04-06-2018, 04:11 PM
Will the real slim shady please stand up in the final !!!! But either way history has been made. Only foreigner that FZD lost to for a long long time was Dima and that one was hard fought match. This is unprecedented. I remember LGL's comments during WTTC FZD vs HM that FZD is showing HM who is the big bro. This is like Hirano moment for CNT Men's team.

This is just a group match so it’s not even close to his loss to Dima in terms of significance. I really hope to see the Harimoto-fzd final, but I have a feeling LGY will ruin my dream

TTLondon2012
04-06-2018, 04:30 PM
Tomokazu Harimoto vs Fan Zhendong (Short Highlight Clip)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSZJprNXJ2A

tropical
04-06-2018, 04:35 PM
This is the news I like to hear. Harimoto seems to be the only hope that someone from other countries will more frequently beat the Chinese, not the team though.

ttmonster
04-06-2018, 04:38 PM
Exceptional play by Harimoto , what I am surprised is that he has now adapted to FZD's attack and is confidently blocking them back which was not the case last time , what a player !

Baal
04-06-2018, 04:43 PM
Wow ... is there any chance they meet again ? I mean fzd and harimoto ?

Probably about 100 times over the next five years!!!

tropical
04-06-2018, 05:01 PM
It took the best ever Chinese coach (arguably) LGL to confess publicly that the only single male to threaten Chinese domination is Harimoto. I was very shocked to hear LGL said it as Chinese normally don't like to praise others to show their weakness. But at the same time I can feel LGL's thinking and intention to warn his players to be more careful thus practice harder and find ways to counter the threat. The most surprising factor is Harimoto age. He is still not full grown yet. Jesus Christ! he is only 15 for god sake and was able to beat the #1 in the world. FZD record showed he had no mercy for foreign players.

ping fun
04-06-2018, 05:08 PM
Probably about 100 times over the next five years!!!

;) thnk god

WorkerBee
04-06-2018, 05:26 PM
...he is only 15 for god sake and was able to beat the #1 in the world.... Tomo is 14, his birthday is June 27, 2003, and Fan Zhendong is World Number 2, as verified in the Chinese Super League. ITTF numbers are messed up. Not that it matters a lot.

bbkon
04-06-2018, 05:54 PM
why people think that if you can play great at 14 you wont stop improving? tomo is defeating all this players because his style is not common nowadays by the time most topplayers are used to his style he will be less dangerous

tropical
04-06-2018, 06:20 PM
Style? FZD doesn't care what your style is and it has been proven for many years. Can you tell me exactly what/how Harimoto' style had anything strange/different to beat FZD this time?

tropical
04-06-2018, 06:22 PM
Tomo is 14, his birthday is June 27, 2003, and Fan Zhendong is World Number 2, as verified in the Chinese Super League. ITTF numbers are messed up. Not that it matters a lot.

Do you know we do not care much about Chinese league's ranking as this is an international forum?

watcher
04-06-2018, 06:34 PM
It is my understanding harimoto uses tenergies on both sides. If he continues his rise to the top, what are people's thoughts on use of nontacky on both wings by Chinese players? Will we start seeing a downtrend in tacky rubbers? Or are "soft" tacky rubbers already a sign of the times that the transition is already in place?

WorkerBee
04-06-2018, 06:43 PM
...Can you tell me exactly what/how Harimoto' style had anything strange/different to beat FZD this time?I could but it'll cost you $25, I accept PayPal.

tropical
04-06-2018, 06:50 PM
I could but it'll cost you $25, I accept PayPal.

Did I ask you, troll?

WorkerBee
04-06-2018, 07:08 PM
Do you know we do not care much about Chinese league's ranking as this is an international forum?Then you need to be ready to not care much about the Japanese T-League that is on the way which is planned to be the top level of the whole Japanese table tennis system.

tropical
04-06-2018, 07:29 PM
Then you need to be ready to not care much about the Japanese T-League that is on the way which is planned to be the top level of the whole Japanese table tennis system.

Are we talking about the official ITTF world ranking or you have a language problem?

NextLevel
04-06-2018, 09:20 PM
FZD lost last year to Koki Niwa in this tournament I believe. And just as interestingly, both LGY and FZD lost one of their first round matches, again ensuring they can only meet in the finals if they meet again. Take away nothing from Harimoto, but these CNT Asian Cup losses in consecutive years is more than a little fishy.


Of course, it could just be pure coincidence and I am just stirring up conspiracy theories...

desibsoton
04-06-2018, 09:43 PM
I'm going to warn you in advance. It's going to be a long post.

How do I know? Well, I've been involved with U12 scene in Japan for 10 years due to my daughter's involvement as a competitive junior player. There are lots of people who know better but I think I know more than the most.

First of all, I don't believe in practicing long hours. Training hard with good coaches and partners is necessary and you'd choose quality over quantity if you had to make a choice. Having said that, putting certain numbers of practice hours is a must for top players as coaches in this forum would agree.

Before I get into Harimoto's practice routine, let me explain the current U12 scene in Japan.

In Japan, the National tournament is held every year for U12/U10/U8 categories. Top players in U12 are then recruited by private school and Elite Academy. 99% of current top players have performed well in these tournaments (notable exception is Oshima). The importance of practicing long hard hours from very young age have been recognized ever since Ai Fukuhara's practice with her mum was televised 25 years ago. According to the survey conducted at U12 national tournament a few years ago, more than half of the participants practice more than 20 hours per week, 20% have put in 30+ hours and few have even clocked 40+. And that's with either your parents or hired coach from China (eg. Matsudaira, Hirano, Ito).

My daughter's club didn't have that luxury, just like most other junior clubs in Japan. Sure she practiced 4 hours in a week day and 6 hours in the weekend but she was always beaten by kids that were privately coached or had parents who owned junior club themselves.

So when Harimoto won U8 tournament aged 7 (back then he was Zhang with Chinese nationality), we were like "Right, another kid with Chinese parents who devoted their life to their kids". But the fact was quite different as we got to know about them more and more by talking to them occasionally or hearing about them when we see them at the tournaments.

It turns out, he was closer to "us" than "them" in terms of environment. His parents were hired by Sendai junior club as a full time coach so they didn't have time to teach Harimoto privately except for their off days when they spend about an hour with him. We didn't believe them at first. How could a boy so exceptionally good and absolutely dominates his age group only practice 2 hours a day and even that's with other members of his club so he has to pick the balls and share the table just like everyone else. Well, they weren't lying and by the time he won the national tournament 6 years in a row in 2015(beating a boy from my club on the way), no one was sure of how far he would go when he starts devoting all his time to table tennis. That year, he was already beating U18 national champion as well as some top senior player in Japan.

That almost happened in 2016 when he had to make a choice after graduating primary school. In the end he chose the Elite Academy which was and still is funded by JOC and other governing bodies. Because it's state funded, minimum academic standard must be met and you need to attend unrelated course and seminar such as media presentation organized by the Elite Academy. It means that typical week day only allows 2-3 hours of practice. This is a stark contrast from top private schools in Japan where scouted players finish school on 2pm and practice 6 to 8 hours per day. It was no surprise that until Harimoto and Hirano, there were hardly any top players produced by the Elite Academy. Players like Hirano and Miu Kato probably made a right choice by leaving the Academy before the age limit of 18.

So, back to my original statement. I'm looking forward to the day he graduates Elite Academy and devotes all his time playing table tennis. He has already achieved more than most players on this planet even if he retires today. I somehow feel there's lot more to come.

Thanks a lot and I fully support your views here. I am glad we have people like you on this forum.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

watcher
04-06-2018, 10:45 PM
FZD lost last year to Koki Niwa in this tournament I believe. And just as interestingly, both LGY and FZD lost one of their first round matches, again ensuring they can only meet in the finals if they meet again. Take away nothing from Harimoto, but these CNT Asian Cup losses in consecutive years is more than a little fishy.


Of course, it could just be pure coincidence and I am just stirring up conspiracy theories...

In other sports, some teams/players throw the match so the other team cannot make specific adjustments for when they meet in the playoffs. Would this be a factor in TT?

tropical
04-06-2018, 11:15 PM
It is quite possible and happened some times in WC soccer. Even I love to see someone can beat the Chinese, I find it hard to believe FZD lost to Harimoto.

Free bird
04-06-2018, 11:25 PM
FZD lost last year to Koki Niwa in this tournament I believe. And just as interestingly, both LGY and FZD lost one of their first round matches, again ensuring they can only meet in the finals if they meet again. Take away nothing from Harimoto, but these CNT Asian Cup losses in consecutive years is more than a little fishy.


Of course, it could just be pure coincidence and I am just stirring up conspiracy theories...

i doubt it’s just a coincidence. You’ll see what happens in the termination rounds. I’m rooting for Harimoto to beat LGY so the final will be more fun to watch

rainneverever
04-06-2018, 11:35 PM
Last Asian Cup, LGY lost to JM in the group. FZD lost to CCA in the group and LGY in the final. It was after China National Games. And fatigue could be an excuse.

FZD said in post match interview that Tomo was sharp and strong in the match. His BH is a threat.
LGY seemed to have some issues with his racket but the umpire declined his request of change.
FZD and LGY didn't play German Open and had almost 3week closed training. It doesn't make much sense that they lost so easily.

zeio
04-07-2018, 12:15 AM
why people think that if you can play great at 14 you wont stop improving? tomo is defeating all this players because his style is not common nowadays by the time most topplayers are used to his style he will be less dangerous
Well, because he is ethnic Chinese. From the past matches he lost against DO and XX, he lost miserably the 1st time but by the 2nd time he had already come up with a clear game plan. It could be his dad, it could be his support team(yup, the Japan has a dedicated team of people doing analytics just like China), it could be even himself, and it could be the collective effort of the JNT.

From the clips, the game plan is pretty simple. He makes use of his backhand and plays to FZD's backhand in the 1st game. When that didn't work out in the 2nd game, he played to FZD's forehand in the 3rd game. Yup, just that simple. He knew his forehand was his weakness and so he tried to lure FZD into playing his BH game. He actually took a page from Calderano and used the backhand straights on 3rd ball to great effect. His response in the post-match interview also backs that up. Simple-minded as he is, FZD said fuq yea! I'm gonna bust you up!

WorkerBee
04-07-2018, 12:20 AM
...
From the clips, the game plan is pretty simple. He makes use of his backhand and plays to FZD's backhand in the 1st game. When that didn't work out in the 2nd game, he played to FZD's forehand in the 3rd game. Yup, just that simple. He knew his forehand was his weakness and so he tried to lure FZD into playing his BH game. He actually took a page from Calderano and used the backhand straights on 3rd ball to great effect. His response in the post-match interview also backs that up. Simple-minded as he is, FZD said fuq yea! I'm gonna bust you up!Where did you find the actual match?

zeio
04-07-2018, 12:24 AM
I'm not telling.

Propaganda, Japanese style

The big ass header reads "Harimoto Tomokazu beat World-Ranked Number 1 FZD!" The gist of the passage sums up the game, that Harimoto used his backhand to open up the angles and steered the game to his advantage.

https://i.imgur.com/DYTOOvL.jpg

ping fun
04-07-2018, 04:53 AM
I'm not telling.

Propaganda, Japanese style

The big ass header reads "Harimoto Tomokazu beat World-Ranked Number 1 FZD!" The gist of the passage sums up the game, that Harimoto used his backhand to open up the angles and steered the game to his advantage.

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/cache.php?img=https%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FDYTOOvL.jpg

so .... this victory had a wide reflection in japan .

Free bird
04-07-2018, 07:02 AM
So Harimoto lost to JEONG Sangeun, didn’t event get to semi-finals, what a disappointment .
People just made too much of his victory over fzd at this first stage. Keep in mind after LGY’s unexpected quick loss to LEE (-8,-5,-5), fzd needed a loss to better avoid meeting LGY in semi-final. I believe fzd was still playing the third game after 1-1 when LGY lost

TTHopeful
04-07-2018, 07:12 AM
Has this victory hit main stream news and tv news in Japan?

zeio
04-07-2018, 07:16 AM
Oh, you bet. It's all over the news. It made to the top page on Yahoo.

bobpuls
04-07-2018, 11:12 AM
and here we are ... he can beat no1 but what about this big loses to other palyers like Calderano (what a beating) or now JEONG Sangeun


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VD0Ovjl6CXU


what can i see it`s this... he can prepare for one player but still lack the experience to beat all the rest ?
let the scream fades with his name . ... i really do not like him only for the scream . When he becomes real no1 player i will no watch him play only for that. ! when he stops be a "jerk" i will watch.

ping fun
04-07-2018, 11:39 AM
and here we are ... he can beat no1 but what about this big loses to other palyers like Calderano (what a beating) or now JEONG Sangeun
what can i see it`s this... he can prepare for one player but still lack the experience to beat all the rest ?
let the scream fades with his name . ... i really do not like him only for the scream . When he becomes real no1 player i will no watch him play only for that. ! when he stops be a "jerk" i will watch.

To be honest he's got a long way but actually this winning vs FZD was a good booty . Now more important thing is the final . I hope we see a good fight from LGY . He must prove himself some where

langel
04-07-2018, 11:40 AM
what can i see it`s this... he can prepare for one player but still lack the experience to beat all the rest ?
let the scream fades with his name . ... i really do not like him only for the scream . When he becomes real no1 player i will no watch him play only for that. ! when he stops be a "jerk" i will watch.

Well, what I see is this - in everyday life he is just a shy little boy with a narrow social life and experience. The scream is giving him just a little portion of the confidence he needs. I like him and want to believe that he will go stronger.

Takkyu_wa_inochi
04-07-2018, 11:58 AM
Common Hari !!!

zeio
04-07-2018, 12:25 PM
In one report, Harimoto said he missed so much he squandered his chances. He got hotheaded and that clouded his judgment. His technique was like 60-80% but needed to be 80-90%. He needed to keep up the pressure until the opponent missed but he just went all in and doomed if the ball came back.

In another report, he said he found it strange that he missed in the beginning. Jeong missed tons at the Team World Cup but didn't miss today.

In another tweet by the ITTF, he said he couldn't return Jeong's fast blocks.

It's all over the place. To me he doesn't even know why he lost.

NextLevel
04-07-2018, 02:19 PM
In one report, Harimoto said he missed so much he squandered his chances. He got hotheaded and that clouded his judgment. His technique was like 60-80% but needed to be 80-90%. He needed to keep up the pressure until the opponent missed but he just went all in and doomed if the ball came back.

In another report, he said he found it strange that he missed in the beginning. Jeong missed tons at the Team World Cup but didn't miss today.

In another tweet by the ITTF, he said he couldn't return Jeong's fast blocks.

It's all over the place. To me he doesn't even know why he lost.

He knows why he lost he is just too proud to say it and not willing to cede that to his opponents. First of all, Jeong was playing out of his mind with a super level of consistency. As someone who has played Ma Long tough, he knows how to hit a level that is very consistent.

Of course he also took advantage of Harimoto's forehand. And Harimoto will not admit that people should play his forehand.

ttmonster
04-07-2018, 02:25 PM
To me his footwork seemed slower than other matches and even on the backhand opener he missed too many than normal ... I still think the kid was injured .. .he is just too proud to say so ... and thats why all those varied explanation ...

He knows why he lost he is just too proud to say it and not willing to cede that to his opponents. First of all, Jeong was playing out of his mind with a super level of consistency. As someone who has played Ma Long tough, he knows how to hit a level that is very consistent.

Of course he also took advantage of Harimoto's forehand. And Harimoto will not admit that people should play his forehand.

NextLevel
04-07-2018, 02:44 PM
To me his footwork seemed slower than other matches and even on the backhand opener he missed too many than normal ... I still think the kid was injured .. .he is just too proud to say so ... and thats why all those varied explanation ...

Definitely possible but he beats WCT 4-0 after. In the end we just have to accept that the matches are what they are. Jeong was once expected to be a top level player. You don't see it all the time but sometimes you do. Think about how many players have beaten Ma Long, injured or healthy, in the last 10 years. Then remember that Jeong is on that list. Then let it sink in.

TTLOVE
04-07-2018, 02:49 PM
This is the full match guys

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJwCFBYok4k

WorkerBee
04-07-2018, 03:05 PM
Thank you so much!!!

jawien
04-07-2018, 03:20 PM
What happened at 5:01 of the above (sets 2:1, points 1:0)? Seem to be Fan's point on 1:1, but it went to Harimoto.

ttmonster
04-07-2018, 03:26 PM
Oh ! Absolutely ! I am a big fan of Jeong .. .he is a character and when he is on he is on , no questions about that ... he totally deserved to win that match , I am not taking away anything from him ... what I meant was that I expected Harimoto to put up more of a fight ... like he always does , somehow it seemed to me that he was missing that gear in this match ... Jeong has the ability to pull off out of the world shots in clutch moments more than other people , which I haven't seen WCT do , I may be wrong . That kind of ability puts extraordinary pressure on the opponent.

Definitely possible but he beats WCT 4-0 after. In the end we just have to accept that the matches are what they are. Jeong was once expected to be a top level player. You don't see it all the time but sometimes you do. Think about how many players have beaten Ma Long, injured or healthy, in the last 10 years. Then remember that Jeong is on that list. Then let it sink in.

NextLevel
04-07-2018, 03:35 PM
Oh ! Absolutely ! I am a big fan of Jeong .. .he is a character and when he is on he is on , no questions about that ... he totally deserved to win that match , I am not taking away anything from him ... what I meant was that I expected Harimoto to put up more of a fight ... like he always does , somehow it seemed to me that he was missing that gear in this match ... Jeong has the ability to pull off out of the world shots in clutch moments more than other people , which I haven't seen WCT do , I may be wrong . That kind of ability puts extraordinary pressure on the opponent.

This is the same WCT that beat Harimoto (3-0) and Koki Niwa in February, beat Lee Sang Su and took two games of Ma Long in Germany . As much as it is in vogue to call WCT overrated, the point here is that there is no need to find excuses for the kid. The kid is also pointing out that he expected an easier match from JSE based on what happened in February where I think HT won 3-1, but today, JSE was just not missing.

As someone pointed out on MyTT - in this very Asian Cup:

HT beats FZD
FZD beats LSS
LSS beats LGY
LGY beats JSE
JSE beats HT

Table tennis is like that.

tropical
04-07-2018, 03:39 PM
Some people don't like his scream. I do not mind him screaming after winning a point, though. A 14 y/o kid with such potential should be treated differently, I mean carefully, than others. Funny thing is some Chinese called him ethnic Chinese when he beat their players, then laughed or mocked at him when he lost to others. Such folks are indeed cruel, sometimes!

He definitely will need to sharpen his mental game. Probably look closely at XX, Timo as examples to understand how these great players can come back and win in extremely impossible cases.

ttmonster
04-07-2018, 03:42 PM
Whoever pointed that out , made a lot of points :) , oh and I am not really trying to make excuses I am just trying to understand why he could not put up more of a fight ... I am not taking for granted he will win every time .. but he puts up more fight in general

This is the same WCT that beat Harimoto (3-0) and Koki Niwa in February, beat Lee Sang Su and took two games of Ma Long in Germany . As much as it is in vogue to call WCT overrated, the point here is that there is no need to find excuses for the kid. The kid is also pointing out that he expected an easier match from JSE based on what happened in February where I think HT won 3-1, but today, JSE was just not missing.

As someone pointed out on MyTT - in this very Asian Cup:

HT beats FZD
FZD beats LSS
LSS beats LGY
LGY beats JSE
JSE beats HT

Table tennis is like that.

WorkerBee
04-07-2018, 03:43 PM
This match is like two Cobras fighting, amazing. The speed, accuracy, footwork!! Is it going to be like this for the next 10 years? Sometimes it's so fast you can only tell the winner by which one clenches their fist and yells.

ttmonster
04-07-2018, 03:46 PM
I have stopped engaging such people , its not worth getting into a conversation with them ... misplaced nationalism is in rise all of over the world and its sad that educated people can't look beyond it ... but its the way it is ... let us just remain table tennis fan and appreciate the sport instead of focusing on the narrow mindedness ...

Some people don't like his scream. I do not mind him screaming after winning a point, though. A 14 y/o kid with such potential should be treated differently, I mean carefully, than others. Funny thing is some Chinese called him ethnic Chinese when he beat their players, then laughed or mocked at him when he lost to others. Such folks are indeed cruel, sometimes!

He definitely will need to sharpen his mental game. Probably look closely at XX, Timo as examples to understand how these great players can come back and win in extremely impossible cases.

NextLevel
04-07-2018, 03:48 PM
Whoever pointed that out , made a lot of points :) , oh and I am not really trying to make excuses I am just trying to understand why he could not put up more of a fight ... I am not taking for granted he will win every time .. but he puts up more fight in general


If we take the kid at his word, he thought he should be able to overpower JSE and got frustrated when he couldn't and couldn't adjust to the fact that what worked 6 weeks ago wasn't working now.

WorkerBee
04-07-2018, 03:57 PM
...HT beats FZD
FZD beats LSS
LSS beats LGY
LGY beats JSE
JSE beats HT

Table tennis is like that.So very true, except in this case, one of them is 14.

James Livesey
04-07-2018, 04:08 PM
Regarding his training, I have no doubts has it pretty damn good for TT specifically. As a 14 y/o though, I doubt he has optimal fitness training. He's still growing! When he's able to fully develop body wise, he'll be quite a bit better.

bbkon
04-07-2018, 04:30 PM
what is upssetting tomo is the subtle change of speed and spin and tomo likes.to blast at full speed if a player is consistent enough at medium speed and spin have lot of chance to beat tomo he seems to be very stiff and cant adapt to sudden soft balls

TTFrenzy
04-07-2018, 05:06 PM
Not if you have followed them closely for several years. Ishikawa is the perfect counterexample. Mizutani peaked at the right time once at Rio. The JNT still hasn't cracked the code when it comes to peaking at the right time. WCT of Hong Kong has spoken he had always peaked at the wrong time. Germany, South Korea and Sweden are the other 3 countries who have managed it consistently at various points in history.

your arguements just wont work.

TTFrenzy
04-07-2018, 05:12 PM
lol he beated one of the top chinese and still some people are sceptical. no one was that consistent at his age and losing games to various different styles is quite normal, this win comes natural to me just earlier than I expected. FZD isnt the most creative /smart fella in the top TT, he always likes to keep it simple and solid and this has its pros and cons

Free bird
04-07-2018, 05:39 PM
Again, not trying to dampen majority of folks’ enthusiasms here, let’s face the reality: the kid is not at the same level as fzd. Give him sometime to develop strength and skills. For the next two years in preparation for the Olympics, If I were Japanese team head coach, I would ignore Chinese players and exclusively focuse on beating Dima,Timo,Hugo, gauzy s, Freitas m.... so many worthy competitors to worry about in such a short time....

LikeTT
04-07-2018, 07:11 PM
(Full Match) Fan Zhendong vs Harimoto Tomokazu (MS) 2018 Asian Cup (Highlights)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjrLRWZ_-WU

berndtjgmann
04-07-2018, 07:42 PM
TT Asian Cup:
Two youths strike a small white ball
At sense stagg'ring speed.

Cobras mesmerized.
Mongesse look in shock and awe.
Mercury catches breath.

What's it all about,
Alfie?

WorkerBee
04-07-2018, 10:43 PM
...
What's it all about,
Alfie?Congratulations to Yosuke Kurashima, Tomo's coach, aka, Alfie. I bet he knows what it's all about, him and Liu Guollang.

zeio
04-08-2018, 08:27 AM
Everybody knows about Haritomo's forehand loophole. Not even a secret. Even Harimoto says himself he tries to steer the game to his BH game as much as possible. His dad has openly admitted to it multiple times since WJTTC 2016, and he just told the press that Harimoto worked on his forehand at a week-long camp in Germany in March. But apparently that is only the external factor, the real reason he lost has to do with his mindset - the psychological predisposition that they couldn't lose to other countries other than China.

That is exactly what has been haunting Miu Hirano since ATTC 2017, who admitted in a TV program during the Asian Cup 2017. The same thing is pretty much going on for Harimoto since claiming the All-Japan Championships. He admitted his bad showing at the Team World Cup was due to the fame from beating Mizutani at the All-Japan. He couldn't lose to anyone else other than the Chinese. He told the press at the start of the Asian Cup that he lowered his position again during his match against FZD, but let it get to him again after that win.

This is why it's so difficult to hold a technical discussion on English-speaking forums. The East and West are not on the same page, at all. The overall mentality of various folks here is so yesteryear. Disconnected, to be blunt. And not just the amateurs, even the pros could be superstitious.

I have access to resources from China, Japan, Taiwan, and Hong Kong, which allows me to make observations from at least 4 different angles. There're also a few coaches stationed in Japan who would share their opinions from time to time on Chinese forums. One prominent issue raised on Japanese table tennis culture is the tendency to look for shortcuts. Ever heard of the "scapula play style"? No clue what I'm talking about? Don't bother looking it up. You won't find anything in English. Anyway, Harimoto is a victim here. A very fundamental issue. His forehand will stay crappy as long as he doesn't fix it. That's all you need to know.

The issue of cutting corners is also evident in Ishikawa. Yup, her again. Can't help it. I've been keeping watch on her since 2009. In 2014, she said in a TV program she needed to work on her backhand, with her then new coach Chen Lili. She also said she had to work on the crucial points. In 2017, in yet another program, she was still fixing it, with yet another new coach, Li Lu since 2016. Her handling of crucial points is still disastrous as she pointed out in a news report after losing to Chen Meng. She also admitted to constantly imitating other players, never truly building on her own style. She copied Hirano's style after witnessing what she achieved. She revealed that she'd been focused on protecting her place on the team until she realized Ito and Hirano were already breathing down her neck. After so many years, she is finally back to working on her fundamentals. Yup, after years of cutting corners.

Bottom line? She just doesn't have what it takes. Zhang Yining said that much during her commentary in the final at the WTTC 2016.

Joepole
04-08-2018, 10:21 AM
Everybody knows about Haritomo's forehand loophole. Not even a secret. Even Harimoto says himself he tries to steer the game to his BH game as much as possible. His dad has openly admitted to it multiple times since WJTTC 2016, and he just told the press that Harimoto worked on his forehand at a week-long camp in Germany in March. But apparently that is only the external factor, the real reason he lost has to do with his mindset - the psychological predisposition that they couldn't lose to other countries other than China.

That is exactly what has been haunting Miu Hirano since ATTC 2017, who admitted in a TV program during the Asian Cup 2017. The same thing is pretty much going on for Harimoto since claiming the All-Japan Championships. He admitted his bad showing at the Team World Cup was due to the fame from beating Mizutani at the All-Japan. He couldn't lose to anyone else other than the Chinese. He told the press at the start of the Asian Cup that he lowered his position again during his match against FZD, but let it get to him again after that win.

This is why it's so difficult to hold a technical discussion on English-speaking forums. The East and West are not on the same page, at all. The overall mentality of various folks here is so yesteryear. Disconnected, to be blunt. And not just the amateurs, even the pros could be superstitious.

I have access to resources from China, Japan, Taiwan, and Hong Kong, which allows me to make observations from at least 4 different angles. There're also a few coaches stationed in Japan who would share their opinions from time to time on Chinese forums. One prominent issue raised on Japanese table tennis culture is the tendency to look for shortcuts. Ever heard of the "scapula play style"? No clue what I'm talking about? Don't bother looking it up. You won't find anything in English. Anyway, Harimoto is a victim here. A very fundamental issue. His forehand will stay crappy as long as he doesn't fix it. That's all you need to know.

The issue of cutting corners is also evident in Ishikawa. Yup, her again. Can't help it. I've been keeping watch on her since 2009. In 2014, she said in a TV program she needed to work on her backhand, with her then new coach Chen Lili. She also said she had to work on the crucial points. In 2017, in yet another program, she was still fixing it, with yet another new coach, Li Lu since 2016. Her handling of crucial points is still disastrous as she pointed out in a news report after losing to Chen Meng. She also admitted to constantly imitating other players, never truly building on her own style. She copied Hirano's style after witnessing what she achieved. She revealed that she'd been focused on protecting her place on the team until she realized Ito and Hirano were already breathing down her neck. After so many years, she is finally back to working on her fundamentals. Yup, after years of cutting corners.

Bottom line? She just doesn't have what it takes. Zhang Yining said that much during her commentary in the final at the WTTC 2016.

I'm not sure what you mean. Kasumi is currently the best and most consistent non chinese player in the world. Is that what you mean by doesn't have what it takes?

WorkerBee
04-08-2018, 02:49 PM
...
what can i see it`s this... he can prepare for one player but still lack the experience to beat all the rest ?
let the scream fades with his name . ... i really do not like him only for the scream . When he becomes real no1 player i will no watch him play only for that. ! when he stops be a "jerk" i will watch.

Why is he screaming? Because he has invented a new style/strategy for professional table tennis. One component is that he plays at 100% energy every minute. He actually does have the same energy level all the time instead of the traditional fluctuation as in almost every other sport. It is comparable with 50 yard sprint running or swimming. In many time-period sports, the player normally operates about 90% energy level and turns it up to near 100% near the end or in a clutch situation. Tomo plays like every point is a clutch situation, so the yelling reflects his attitude to each point. Many people notice that he doesn't flip out at the end of each game or match like he does for each point. This is a different strategic method. This also partly explains why he does not back more than three feet away from the table. It also explains why he does not return into the opponents' wheelhouse areas, i.e., to where the opponent can make one of his easy shots. So except for Tomo's short soft returns, Tomo is making an extreme aggressive shot. This is the strategy that guides all his tactics. It is so advanced that it is building up the only way people can defeat the Chinese players, or any big strong player that relies on power playing. The other side of that is to make shots with speed and placement that prevent the firm planting of the feet and the resultant monster looping based on leg/foot placement. Tomo tactics and strategy will allow a certain equalization between Chinese monsters and everyone else. There are a few more tactical and strategic options available for the future, especially shown by Waldner, but that is even more advanced and allowed J-O to play world championships until he was 50 and involved super advanced brain work. Tomo has a very advanced brain, so he may take that path in his 30's. I'm not going into the whole Tomo method here, just bringing up some of the major components for discussion.

TTLondon2012
04-08-2018, 04:56 PM
Tomokazu Harimoto vs Fan Zhendong [Full Match Highlights]


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BumusfekP_k

bobpuls
04-08-2018, 05:03 PM
i will respond latter just now Sagan just beat all in Paris RUBbay...... this is when i cry ..... but still you have lots of right and thru info .

Ilia Minkin
04-08-2018, 05:12 PM
Why is he screaming?

Because he hopes that his opponent will get pissed.

WorkerBee
04-08-2018, 05:45 PM
Because he hopes that his opponent will get pissed.So far it's only worked on Lubomir Pistej at the ITTF World Championship in 2017, Dusseldorf when Tomo was 13. All his other great victories, Boll, Samsonov, Mizutani, Fan, etc., his opponents were adults.

TTFrenzy
04-08-2018, 05:52 PM
I'm not sure what you mean. Kasumi is currently the best and most consistent non chinese player in the world. Is that what you mean by doesn't have what it takes?


lol zeio always exaggerates on his conclusions. general quotes like that dont mean a thing. The issue here is whatever happens zeio will eventually self proclaim that he was right

I agree though up to certain extent that non chinese players tend to cut corners. But he doesnt understand that mentalities are different and there is no such thing as superior mentality.

WorkerBee
04-08-2018, 06:04 PM
i...just now Sagan just beat all in Paris Roubaix...I hate him, he yells all the time
16061

bobpuls
04-08-2018, 07:20 PM
IN my face !!!!!!!!!!
but still really different !!!!

NextLevel
04-09-2018, 12:01 AM
lol zeio always exaggerates on his conclusions. general quotes like that dont mean a thing. The issue here is whatever happens zeio will eventually self proclaim that he was right

I agree though up to certain extent that non chinese players tend to cut corners. But he doesnt understand that mentalities are different and there is no such thing as superior mentality.


The thing is that he is not just exaggerating, he is trying to make his predictions reality because they are the general opinion of some cognoscenti that don't want logic to bow to facts.

Not beating the Chinese is absolutely nothing to be ashamed of. Ishikawa has had other relatively major missteps in her career but which player not from China hasn't? Timo Boll? Even Miu Hirano was partly inspired by being left behind by Mima Ito at the 2016 Olympics.

It is hard to beat the Chinese if not almost impossible unless they get too cocky and underestimate you.

Ishikawa lost to Kim Song I in the singles of the Olympics. But Kim Song I went on to win the Bronze medal, which was what Ishikawa was expected to win. So it's not like she lost to a nobody - the draw was just unfavorable. But of course the loss hurt and rather than put it in perspective, a lot of emphasis has been placed on her choking.

She changed equipment (like Dima did) because she is fighting to do anything to get better. And of course she can talk about fundamentals and all that crap but those are things that you have to know top players to understand that their perspective is very different from the rest of us.

If the idea is that Japan should not place much faith in Ishikawa because she is damaged goods, sure, that is the choice of the National team. But if the idea is that there is realistically some team that Japan can field and some players out there in Japan that will be beating the best Chinese in 2020 and Ishikawa is not one of them, that is ridiculous and Ishikawa is fully within her rights to try to keep her standing on the team and to continue to beat her pursuers.

The Japanese are further enough ahead of most teams that they could get the silver without Ishikawa. But to be honest, in team events, they are all shakier than she has proven to be recently. She was the best part of the 2016 Bronze team. It's just hard to beat the Chinese.

I think Ishikawa is a fighter and deserves to be beaten of her pedestal and not have it taken away because of some imaginary theory that other players can do better against the Chinese than she can.

ttmonster
04-09-2018, 03:07 AM
I just wish I had the personal email of Ishikawa to sent this to her , it is a very nice and inspiring post NextLevel , you should write more :)


The thing is that he is not just exaggerating, he is trying to make his predictions reality because they are the general opinion of some cognoscenti that don't want logic to bow to facts.

Not beating the Chinese is absolutely nothing to be ashamed of. Ishikawa has had other relatively major missteps in her career but which player not from China hasn't? Timo Boll? Even Miu Hirano was partly inspired by being left behind by Mima Ito at the 2016 Olympics.

It is hard to beat the Chinese if not almost impossible unless they get too cocky and underestimate you.

Ishikawa lost to Kim Song I in the singles of the Olympics. But Kim Song I went on to win the Bronze medal, which was what Ishikawa was expected to win. So it's not like she lost to a nobody - the draw was just unfavorable. But of course the loss hurt and rather than put it in perspective, a lot of emphasis has been placed on her choking.

She changed equipment (like Dima did) because she is fighting to do anything to get better. And of course she can talk about fundamentals and all that crap but those are things that you have to know top players to understand that their perspective is very different from the rest of us.

If the idea is that Japan should not place much faith in Ishikawa because she is damaged goods, sure, that is the choice of the National team. But if the idea is that there is realistically some team that Japan can field and some players out there in Japan that will be beating the best Chinese in 2020 and Ishikawa is not one of them, that is ridiculous and Ishikawa is fully within her rights to try to keep her standing on the team and to continue to beat her pursuers.

The Japanese are further enough ahead of most teams that they could get the silver without Ishikawa. But to be honest, in team events, they are all shakier than she has proven to be recently. She was the best part of the 2016 Bronze team. It's just hard to beat the Chinese.

I think Ishikawa is a fighter and deserves to be beaten of her pedestal and not have it taken away because of some imaginary theory that other players can do better against the Chinese than she can.

timgapinski1
04-12-2018, 01:28 AM
Why is he screaming? Because he has invented a new style/strategy for professional table tennis. One component is that he plays at 100% energy every minute. He actually does have the same energy level all the time instead of the traditional fluctuation

Science taught us in the 1920s. Matter does not exist. Well that's the quote. Meaning we used to think it all boils down to molecules and atoms and atomic parts. But it's not true. At the core is energy that holds it all together. We may know of quantum physics but we have barely learned to live as if we are energy!

One advantage of being 13 is the natural idealism and the simplistic belief of the future.

The complexity of adult emotions is a disadvantage. It may contribute to creative strategy and the memory of experience is useful for sure but attentive confident energy trumps other great qualities because at our core we are energy.

This also makes me refer to your point about placement and imbalance. His Energy is not just exerted it is also aimed at points of lesser energy.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

usualsuspect
04-13-2018, 07:43 PM
No wayyyyy .... howwww??? I never wanted this to happen .ah and I found out LGY lost too ... not a surprising one . Even not an upset . I just wanna know when he's gonna be a top chinese player after these many defeats ?? China must do something . They dont have enough promising young players as before ( ml , zjk, xx ) .

What are you talking about? China has a lot of promising young players. FZD is only 21 years old, that's young. Wang Chuqin is a promising player, only 17 years old. Liang Jingkun, Liu Dingshuo, Yan An are all rising stars. And then there is Fang Bo and Zhou Yu. They might not be on the same level as Ma Long, FZD, and Xu Xin, but any of them has the potential to become the next world #1. In terms of average skill level, the Chinese national team still dominates.

IMHO, the top tier table tennis players consists of Ma Long, FZD, Xu Xin, Timo Boll, and Dima Ovtcharov (in no particular order). They can certainly lose matches to lower ranked players, but they are the most consistently strong players. They regularly best each other in major events. For example, Ma Long beat Timo in WTTC 2017, then Timo beat Ma Long in World Cup just a few months later; and Dima beat FZD in German Open 2017, then FZD beat Dima a few months later in World Tour Grand Final.

Harimoto is still too young. He lacks sufficient physical strength to be a serious threat to the top 5 players. But as I said before, it does not mean the top 5 are invincible. Anyone can lose a match. Harimoto has beaten Timo in 2017, during one of the ITTF World Tour Open, can't remember which one.

zeio
05-05-2018, 02:37 PM
Bottom line? She just doesn't have what it takes. Zhang Yining said that much during her commentary in the final at the WTTC 2016.
There you have it. Even Bobrow said during the final that Japan might've been better off benching Ishikawa and going with Hayata instead.

lugi2000
05-05-2018, 02:45 PM
Japan had a chance

NextLevel
05-05-2018, 02:53 PM
There you have it. Even Bobrow said during the final that Japan might've been better off benching Ishikawa and going with Hayata instead.


And I presume Hirano has it? Or Ito didn't just get lucky? This after the fact selective crowing is very unbecoming.

zeio
05-05-2018, 03:21 PM
Feel free to ignore me, but here's a tieba thread (https://tieba.baidu.com/p/5685202415) titled "Turns out Ishikawa is the weakest link on the JNT" and not one disagreement, sharing their opinions what Ishikawa lacks that Ito and Hirano have against China.

NextLevel
05-05-2018, 03:39 PM
Feel free to ignore me, but here's a tieba thread (https://tieba.baidu.com/p/5685202415) titled "Turns out Ishikawa is the weakest link on the JNT" and not one disagreement, sharing their opinions what Ishikawa lacks that Ito and Hirano have against China.

You keep missing the point - how many JNT players are repeatedly beating the Chinese? Ishikawa is to take the best arguments against her the worst of a bunch of losers. People should stop acting like she is a loser amongst a bunch of winners. She won exactly the same number of games in that final as Miu Hirano did, and Zhu Yuling is probably the hardest matchup on the team for a non-Chinese player.

Andy44
05-05-2018, 04:01 PM
Ishikawa simply lacks the power to threaten the top CNT players. Nothing she can do about it, whereas Hirano et. al. have a chance to improve and seriously challenge the Chinese. So it would make sense to sit Ishikawa against China and let the others get experience playing them even though they're currently not likely to do much better. But Ishikawa certainly deserves to play against any other country.

Takkyu_wa_inochi
05-05-2018, 04:01 PM
Ishikawa can beat almost anyone but the top Chinese players indeed her track record is terrible against Ding Ning, Liu Shiwen, Li Xiaoxia, Zhu Yuling or Chen Meng, - we can add also a few other older players to that list.

I believe what she lacks most is 1) power. we can see a few times she has difficulty to finish her points with a FH drive/smash. 2) a big victory in her early career. If when she was young she beat even ONCE a Chinese player it would have given more confidence. She's been beaten hard again and again, even when she was at her top, and when she starts a new match, its putting weight on her and giving extra confidence to her opponents. 3) her tactics. She wins non-Chinese because she is super-consistent, more than anyone else. On the other hand she doesn't need to play very agressive all points, but maybe thats what it takes to beat the Chinese, because they are all even more consistent than her. She has to take more risks, play differently but Im feeling she's not been trying to go out too much of her usual tactics against the Chinese.

I think the closest she ever got was leading 2-0 and something like 8-6 against LI Xiaoxia in a team event final. but LI got a lucky edge ball and from there she came back to win it 3-2. so I could add 4) (lack of ) luck as another explanation to her records

to NL, Ishikawa said in the post-match interview that she played very very badly and felt sorry about it to her teammates and her fans.

to Andy. ZHU YL was perhaps the player she had the most chance to win against the odds, but it didn't work. I doubt Hayata would have won it, but she's young and will have her time.

NextLevel
05-05-2018, 04:18 PM
Ishikawa can beat almost anyone but the top Chinese players indeed her track record is terrible against Ding Ning, Liu Shiwen, Li Xiaoxia, Zhu Yuling or Chen Meng, - we can add also a few other older players to that list.

I believe what she lacks most is 1) power. we can see a few times she has difficulty to finish her points with a FH drive/smash. 2) a big victory in her early career. If when she was young she beat even ONCE a Chinese player it would have given more confidence. She's been beaten hard again and again, even when she was at her top, and when she starts a new match, its putting weight on her and giving extra confidence to her opponents. 3) her tactics. She wins non-Chinese because she is super-consistent, more than anyone else. On the other hand she doesn't need to play very agressive all points, but maybe thats what it takes to beat the Chinese, because they are all even more consistent than her. She has to take more risks, play differently but Im feeling she's not been trying to go out too much of her usual tactics against the Chinese.

I think the closest she ever got was leading 2-0 and something like 8-6 against LI Xiaoxia in a team event final. but LI got a lucky edge ball and from there she came back to win it 3-2. so I could add 4) (lack of ) luck as another explanation to her records

to NL, Ishikawa said in the post-match interview that she played very very badly and felt sorry about it to her teammates and her fans.

to Andy. ZHU YL was perhaps the player she had the most chance to win against the odds, but it didn't work. I doubt Hayata would have won it, but she's young and will have her time.

Great post, TWI.

But whose track record is not terrible against all those players??? Mima Ito? Miu Hirano? Hina Hayata?

My point is not that in some theoretical world that Hayata might have a better chance vs Zhu Yuling than Kasumi Ishikawa. My point is that people should stop blaming Ishikawa for what she isn't and appreciate more of who she is. She is the player that the Chinese have studied the most so she is going to do worst by default. The ones who haven't studied her as much, the younger generation, often lose to her. It is not just power, it is preparation.

zeio
05-05-2018, 04:48 PM
https://mao.5ch.net/test/read.cgi/pingpong/1525527077/
Discussion on 5ch, arguably the largest generic forums(like reddit) in Japan, posts #400-500 wondering why Baba puts in that linep, starting #800 people wondered why not let Hayata play, later on people commenting Ishikawa is a dead weight.

talbon
05-05-2018, 09:12 PM
I don't feel the same at all about Ishikawa.

Yes it was a bit disheartening to see her play, not because she is a dead weight (she isn't) but because she should trust her game more even when it comes to CNT.

Instead of playing in her own way, she went down the faster-and-harder-than-the-Chinese route like the rest of her team mates. And it doesn't look like she can do that. She made many mistakes by going for that little bit more power, trying to take the ball that little bit earlier. She stands half a step further away from the table than her teammates and it seems to make a world of difference.

She also got caught wide open with the pace she gave to the opponent. She couldn't follow at that pace.

(Yes, we are all nobodies talking about a level of play much beyond us, but still I'll give my opinion. :rolleyes:)
(She also had trouble with ZYL serves and it didn't help. Anyway.)

I didn't see her getting destroyed when she played just a bit softer but a bit more dynamic, finding angles, setting up counters, and ripping the occasional ball. When she waits for the ball to reach her, her consistency ramps up enormously, and she can either play at full power or control the pace/placement. Step in and accelerate when the opponent is out of position. In fact it is the only time she seemed to get back in the game (she was down 0-7 I believe, and came back a bit into the game, 7-9; most of the last game she goes back to whatever she was doing before).

Imo she has a more versatile, all round game than her teammates. Why not stake the match on what she does well? She might lose because it doesn't work against CNT? Big deal... 1) She is the clear underdog to start with. 2) Random joes on the internet and maybe closer to home are going to criticise her anyway after she loses. 3) She is almost sure to lose if she plays fast and hard against CNT, even though she can do it well enough to be #3. Basically I don't understand what the game plan was, playing in such a way for the opponent to outclass her and hoping on ZYL miraculously choking? Is this really what the staff around her advised? Maybe she should go on an internship with JOW instead! :P

Regardless, she is still one of the best in the world and probably the most reliable player in the Japanese team.

zeio
05-06-2018, 10:56 AM
Soo said Hirano's too quick for her own good sometimes. Guess what? I wrote about this in late 2016 (http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=77415&PID=959265&title=2016-wjtt-championships#959265) when Hirano came back from the CTTSL to attend the WJTTC in Capetwon. Rui Nakazawa(Wang Rui) actually touched on the stability issue in 2017, saying that Hirano would drop random matches for no apparent reason after winning the World Cup.

Soo said LSW was better technically, but we all know about that. That's why Ito's tactics was really simple - all-out attack. It's either you or I here, essentially how Hirano achieved it at the ATTC 2017 when everything clicked. That's the only way they could have a chance against China.

Not so for Ishikawa. Hirano managed to keep the score close, but it was so obvious many couldn't help but notice Ishikawa couldn't even impose her own game on ZYL. "ZYL is the hardest to play" doesn't cut it. Ishikawa has the most wins against ZYL in her entire career. 2 wins 11 losses, 1 at Austrian Open 2013, 1 in team at WJTTC 2010. She hasn't scored any wins over the other core players. Soo said Ishikawa is an all-round player, but the Chinese are even better at that. She can't play all-out attack like Ito and Hirano. Soo also stressed China is so familiar with her. That's why folks in China and Japan agree she poses the least threat against the CNT and give her such nicknames as "CNT maid" and "Chinese complex".

Here is my prediction. Ishikawa will do everything within her power to save her WR until Jan 2019. Beating China? Forget it. Not at the top of her Real-To-Do list but she will keep chanting that on TV.

NextLevel
05-06-2018, 03:32 PM
I guess people can watch Soo's commentary if it is still available and form their own conclusions as to whether it justifies your self congratulation. Her analysis and evaluation of Hirano was more derogatory IMO.

It's really funny how people cite matches from 7 years ago and use them as evidence for what is possible in today's game. Zhu Yuling is the hardest to play is very reasonable because she plays extremely consistent defense. The all out attack style is much harder to impose on Zhu Yuling because she brings way more balls back with variation so you have to be ready to play multiple shots.

I wish by some happenstance that Mima Ito or Miu Hirano was permitted to play Kim Song I. Maybe Ishikawa would have been better appreciated after that.

Japan can leave Ishikawa off the team. I suspect that given the strength of the Hayata-Ito pairing, they will do it if Hayata starts getting better singles results. But the core issue is not whether Japan can beat China without Kasumi. Its whether Japan is really realistic about what Kasumi brings to the team vs what they imagine she takes away from it.

tsunami902
05-07-2018, 01:39 AM
Fzd vs harimoto wtttc 3-0

TTFrenzy
05-07-2018, 07:34 PM
I don't feel the same at all about Ishikawa.

Yes it was a bit disheartening to see her play, not because she is a dead weight (she isn't) but because she should trust her game more even when it comes to CNT.

Instead of playing in her own way, she went down the faster-and-harder-than-the-Chinese route like the rest of her team mates. And it doesn't look like she can do that. She made many mistakes by going for that little bit more power, trying to take the ball that little bit earlier. She stands half a step further away from the table than her teammates and it seems to make a world of difference.

She also got caught wide open with the pace she gave to the opponent. She couldn't follow at that pace.

(Yes, we are all nobodies talking about a level of play much beyond us, but still I'll give my opinion. :rolleyes:)
(She also had trouble with ZYL serves and it didn't help. Anyway.)

I didn't see her getting destroyed when she played just a bit softer but a bit more dynamic, finding angles, setting up counters, and ripping the occasional ball. When she waits for the ball to reach her, her consistency ramps up enormously, and she can either play at full power or control the pace/placement. Step in and accelerate when the opponent is out of position. In fact it is the only time she seemed to get back in the game (she was down 0-7 I believe, and came back a bit into the game, 7-9; most of the last game she goes back to whatever she was doing before).

Imo she has a more versatile, all round game than her teammates. Why not stake the match on what she does well? She might lose because it doesn't work against CNT? Big deal... 1) She is the clear underdog to start with. 2) Random joes on the internet and maybe closer to home are going to criticise her anyway after she loses. 3) She is almost sure to lose if she plays fast and hard against CNT, even though she can do it well enough to be #3. Basically I don't understand what the game plan was, playing in such a way for the opponent to outclass her and hoping on ZYL miraculously choking? Is this really what the staff around her advised? Maybe she should go on an internship with JOW instead! :P

Regardless, she is still one of the best in the world and probably the most reliable player in the Japanese team.

Great analysis dude. You make some valid points about ther game and except boll maybe we can see lots of players making poor choices when facing the chinese like they are desperate and try to force things and end up getting devastated. I mean the legendary swedish team got their ass kicked 4 times but kept coming at them improving their own game, instead of mimicking them. I know its not that simple, but ...one has to play on his/her own strengths instead of trying things that don't fit