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View Full Version : Did Fan Zhendong lose to Harimoto on purpose? (Asian Cup 2018)



EmRatThich
04-11-2018, 07:58 AM
Hello,

I didn't want to disrespect the performance of "Harimoto Tomokazu" over Fan Zhendong.
But not only me, but many viewers on the Chinese forum, has mentioned about the bracket.

At the same time of the match Fan Zhendong vs Harimoto, Lin Gaoyuan was struggling with Lee Sangsue (0-2 down).
If Fan won Harimoto, Fan and Lin will meet at the semi-final. So China will lose 1 medal (silver).

What do you think guy?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amLktOkoLrs


16070 (https://pingsunday.com/why-fan-zhendong-lost-to-harimoto-tomokazu/)


Read more about the "bracket" and "why they need to switch branch" (https://pingsunday.com/why-fan-zhendong-lost-to-harimoto-tomokazu/) here.

Baal
04-11-2018, 09:25 AM
A Chinese player losing to a JAPANESE player on purpose? I very much doubt it.

Herbert
04-11-2018, 09:39 AM
Not losing is more important than a silly medal

drunix80
04-11-2018, 10:10 AM
The kind of form FZD was in for the rest of the event, it is highly likely he did it on purpose.

langel
04-11-2018, 10:28 AM
It's always posible, but I doubt.
In his match with FZD, Harimoto worked out a lot of his points definitely, no FZD involved.
In his other matches Harimoto made a lot of mistakes on his own, with not so much unforgiveble mistakes he would go farher.

WorkerBee
04-11-2018, 12:25 PM
This theory is based on 1) The Chinese players only lose when they want to. 2) No-one will ever develop tactics to consistently beat Chinese players. 3) Game-fixing is common in Chinese table tennis. 4) Chinese coaches have to maintain medal counts as their players and their whole system of recruiting and training is slipping, both for national prestige and for personal income. 5) Table Tennis has gone the way of professional sports, sinking into that pit of lies like Chinese pro soccer and US college basketball. 6) Table tennis sites will start to be covered with betting sites. 7)ITTF will change the clothing rules for women to make them wear underwear with centimeter minimums for cleavage and camel toe.

suds79
04-11-2018, 12:36 PM
I remember Liu Guoliang saying once in a a documentary interview how proud he was that China claimed all the top spots in an Olympics or something like that. So when I first read the topic "lost on purpose" my gut reaction was to say no way.

But after watching the video and understanding how the seeding would work out. And for the China to claim 1st & 2nd and play in the final, it seems like a very CNT strategy thing to do. So I find it easily believable. In fact, I probably should go further than that. Yes, I think it happened.

Takkyu_wa_inochi
04-11-2018, 12:56 PM
Bullshit
TH beat FZD because he played better

Losing one match to your rival is tantamount to give him confidence for the bigger matches. You have to crush your opponents all the time.

TH has won much more than a match here

Emthacrich and others you are ridiculous with those conspiracy theories

TTFrenzy
04-11-2018, 01:09 PM
A Chinese player losing to a JAPANESE player on purpose? I very much doubt it.


exactly, case closed. everything else just derives "how can the chinese lose??" mentality. All those chinese losses show how much of an asset LGL was

WorkerBee
04-11-2018, 01:21 PM
The ITTF goes to great lengths to implement fair bracketing and if there was game-fixing going on and Fan Zhendong lost on purpose to take advantage of the bracket rules, that's just nasty. However, it in no way takes away the phenomenal advances made by Tomo. He did not end up where he is today by shady moves by the Chinese coaches and players. He played fiercely against Xu Xin and Dima to 4-3 3-point games along with stunning victories against Boll, Samsonov, etc. He rose to the national champion of Japan without such nasty game-fixing. He developed an entire strategy of 10 masterful tactics that has changed how people play against Chinese masters. None of this has been diminished by a possibly crooked game by Fan Zhendong and/or Wang Hao.

TTFrenzy
04-11-2018, 01:45 PM
A Chinese player losing to a JAPANESE player on purpose? I very much doubt it.


exactly, case closed. everything else just derives "how can the chinese lose??" mentality. All those chinese losses show how much of an asset LGL was

Richie
04-11-2018, 03:39 PM
I haven't watched your video but this is a pointless discussion. There is currently no way for us to know. But here I go anyway..

I'm a massive fan of the CNT, especially Ma Long and FZD. They better not be match fixing, that would be despicable and they know it. To ensure two medals in a competition that isn't even that important for FZD to lose to TH also doesn't make any sense. I also don't believe it's that easy to intentionally lose a match without making it obvious. In this case it does not seem obvious at all.

Lets give the CNT a bit of credit, surely no one wants to believe that they fixed this match as that would be MUCH worse than FZD losing to TH.

TTHopeful
04-11-2018, 03:53 PM
Surely not... china would not want to give harimoto any sort of confidence...

Garrison
04-11-2018, 04:12 PM
I don't think it's impossible. However it was only a bo5 and in the end meaningless game for the end result so might just been lucky. All of this is a lot of speculation. If you speculate that China would never show weakness to Japan ahead of World Championship/ Olympics, one could also argue that China gives them some slight hope in a minor competition to increase the overall fan interest, as even chinese viewers lose interest in table tennis because of them winning everything.

zeio
04-11-2018, 04:42 PM
It's not pointless. The reason this whole fixing suspicion gains traction is due to the way the main draw was done. The draw for Winners/Runner-ups of Group A AND B are fixed. That's where fixing becomes possible.


Winner Group A, 1
Winner play-off, 2/7
Runner-up Group B, 3
Winner/Runner-up Group C, 4/5
Winner/Runner-up Group C, 4/5
Runner-up Group A, 6
Winner play-off, 2/7
Winner Group B, 8

As far as possible, the second player from the same Association
shall be drawn so that they do not meet before the semi-final stage.

zeio
04-11-2018, 04:56 PM
This is the time when knowing Chinese comes in handy. Read the comments by WH and FZD and you will see.

Richie
04-11-2018, 05:00 PM
It's not pointless. The reason this whole fixing suspicion gains traction is due to the way the main draw was done. The draw for Winners/Runner-ups of Group A AND B are fixed. That's where fixing becomes possible.

I think you misunderstood my post.

The discussion itself is pointless, because again, there is no way of knowing. All it is doing is creating unnecessary controversy.

Looking at the characters of the CNT I find it unlikely that they would intentionally lose games for an extra medal in a competition that isn't even that important for them. FZD stood up for LGL, you can tell he has integrity. Why on earth would he lose to TH on purpose just so that they could potentially get a silver medal? How could he sleep at night after that?

What were the comments? If there was a certain way of knowing FZD lost on purpose I'd be extremely disappointed.

rainneverever
04-11-2018, 05:01 PM
FZD is criticized by WH and mainstream media of losing to TH. It is real nonsense that he lost to TH on purpose being newly WR #1 and on Japan's soil.
Show some respect to both players.

rainneverever
04-11-2018, 05:03 PM
Question 1, did FZD lose to CCA last Asian Cup on purpose?
Question 2, did LGY lose to JM last Asian Cup on purpose?
Question 3, did FZD lose to LGY last Asian Cup final on purpose?
Question 4, did LGY lose to FZD this Asian Cup final on purpose?

tropical
04-11-2018, 05:13 PM
Did Lin Gaoyuan lose before FZD did? If the answer is yes then it is possible that FZD deliberately lost to HT. Conspiracy theory it seems to be but it makes sense and we will never known the answer.

If that were true then the real reason for FZD to deliberately lost to HT would be "to have higher chance for CNT members to be Asian Champion, then more top medals."

This controversy will help TT future, though.

zeio
04-11-2018, 05:19 PM
The discussion arises because there is suspicion of fixing and the possibility is there. It doesn't matter if there is no way of knowing the truth.

This is just like the World Cup 2012 when ML lost to CCY in the group and CCY had to lose to Crisan not 0-4, not 1-4, not 2-4, but 3-4 for ML to edge Crison out and advance to the main draw. That's another case of suspected fixing. It doesn't matter if we will know the truth or not. It's just that the circumstances made it likely and the possibility was there.

WorkerBee
04-11-2018, 05:24 PM
The most common reason for throwing a game is for the dominant player, and his family and friends, to bet on the weaker opposing player and make a ton of money. Is this possible in table tennis? Of course the top player risks getting a broken arm and jail time. It was common in American baseball.

zeio
04-11-2018, 05:25 PM
One thing we know for sure is that Harimoto took the 1st game. FZD took the 2nd game. That's about when LGY got his ass whooped by LSS.

langel
04-11-2018, 05:27 PM
Well, guys, its a TT forum, but as I see the discussion is going on as in a political one.
Just look on the match, the way they play the final points and their mood. The final points of Harimoto are definite playouts, the last mistake of FZD is definitely meant to be a killer but allas.
Whats more, and maybe most important - I really think that FZD has neither the psychology needed for such a conspiracy, nor the actors skills.

zeio
04-11-2018, 05:33 PM
This is why it's time to learn Chinese.

rainneverever
04-11-2018, 05:52 PM
You really need to understand why Asian Cup matters and does not matter. Asian Cup is currently a qualification tournament for World Cup, that's why it matters. However, CNT Asian Cup winner does not always go to World Cup (I.e., 2015 winner XX, runner-up FZD and FZD went to WC); even if some CNT players did not make to Asian Cup final, he/she still can go to WC if World Champion withdrew. That's why the result of Asian Cup does not matter that much. And it is not a tournament with national flag raising.

Back to the question if FZD lost to TH on purpose when he saw LGY lost to LSS. You need to understand it was not the last group match. What if LGY broke down and lost his third group match and did not get to the KO stage? In this tournament, it is not FZD's business what LGY ended with.

rainneverever
04-11-2018, 05:58 PM
This is why it's time to learn Chinese.
To learn common sense is more important than to learn Chinese at this point.

langel
04-11-2018, 06:09 PM
I don't think that the non-chinese players will be better players if they learn chinese.
Knowing language may help political discussions, but the truth of this thread problem is in analying the match, not the brackets.

zeio
04-11-2018, 06:17 PM
To learn common sense is more important than to learn Chinese at this point.
No, common sense could be misleading when people don't even know what they are reading is biased or not.

zeio
04-11-2018, 06:19 PM
I don't think that the non-chinese players will be better players if they learn chinese.
Knowing language may help political discussions, but the truth of this thread problem is in analying the match, not the brackets.
Fukuhara, Ishikawa and now Hirano don't agree.

The first two speak Chinese. Hirano said just a few days ago she needs to learn Chinese to befriend with Chinese players in order to better understand table tennis.

The thing is that analyzing the match can't tell you everything. The draw allows the possibility of fixing and that is why we have this thread.

tropical
04-11-2018, 06:26 PM
Back to the question if FZD lost to TH on purpose when he saw LGY lost to LSS. You need to understand it was not the last group match. What if LGY broke down and lost his third group match and did not get to the KO stage? In this tournament, it is not FZD's business what LGY ended with.

I see your point. Can I switch my vote? :)

rainneverever
04-11-2018, 06:33 PM
Jeong Sangeun also speaks Chinese. He beat Chinese speaking TH, lost to Chinese speaking LGY and Korean speaking LSS lol

tsunami902
04-11-2018, 06:44 PM
Harimoto is a pure 100% chinese for those who does not know....figure it out...

zeio
04-11-2018, 06:48 PM
That's why there is a good chance he is a spy and he is there to sab0tage Japan. That explains his losing in the QF.

tropical
04-11-2018, 07:02 PM
Harimoto is a pure 100% chinese for those who does not know....figure it out...

I look Asian but I am an American. This would be an insult to HT.

Garrison
04-11-2018, 07:02 PM
Wonderkid can't melt FZD's quads?


I look Asian but I am an American. This would be an insult to HT.

Mmh both parents are chinese table tennis coaches so it is very likely that he was raised with the so called "chinese philosophy". I regard Harimoto as a transition player, first the chinese get beaten by a 1/2 foreigner and then they can be beaten by a foreign raised player.

Baal
04-11-2018, 07:02 PM
This theory is based on 1) The Chinese players only lose when they want to. 2) No-one will ever develop tactics to consistently beat Chinese players. 3) Game-fixing is common in Chinese table tennis. 4) Chinese coaches have to maintain medal counts as their players and their whole system of recruiting and training is slipping, both for national prestige and for personal income. 5) Table Tennis has gone the way of professional sports, sinking into that pit of lies like Chinese pro soccer and US college basketball. 6) Table tennis sites will start to be covered with betting sites. 7)ITTF will change the clothing rules for women to make them wear underwear with centimeter minimums for cleavage and camel toe.

Very good post. A couple of comments on what WB just wrote.

Clearly Chinese players do occasionally lose to non-Chinese players. Not all that often it should be said. But they are not entirely invincible.

US college basketball is a cesspool, now being investigated by the FBI. But not for throwing matches! It is a bunch of other horrific stuff. The best thing the NBA can do is to enhance their G and D leagues to create a minor league system so that kids who have no reason to be in college (often for a single year for the best players) can forego the charade and just turn pro with a chance to make the NBA.

People assume that Chinese players fix matches but that seems to me to be based on practices from years ago. People always jump to that conclusion it is still going on but there is no good evidence for it (and no reason to think that chatter on Chinese websites is any more valid than chatter on any other internet forum). Something I have reason to think was going on very recently was listing players as younger than their actual age.

Table tennis in China is a professional sport. Players are more or less professional by their early teens. No reason to think they are immune to any of the things that other sports are subject to. There is a lot at stake. China produces about ten fold as many good players as will ever make a decent living at the sport.

Medal counts are one thing but there are also aspects of national histories. I repeat again that Chinese athletes will never willingly lose to a Japanese athlete in any sport. I could almost imagine it happening with a player from some other country. But Japan? And this particular player? No way I will ever believe it. (I spend a lot of time in China).

Baal
04-11-2018, 07:07 PM
Harimoto is a pure 100% chinese for those who does not know....figure it out...

What is this supposed to mean? The kid was born in Japan. It is true that his parents were born in China and emigrated to Japan. Are you suggesting that Chinese players have some sort of intrinsic genetic advantage for table tennis that Japanese people (and anyone else) would not have? Nonsense. I will not write some of the more impolite things I am thinking about this comment. You can figure it out.

Now, the fact that his parents moved to Japan is likely to make Harimoto especially unpopular in China, especially when you add in his over the top cho-ing and such. I will be charitable and conclude that was the point you were making.

zeio
04-11-2018, 07:36 PM
Our American friends getting offended at a comment made by a fellow American who probably doesn't even care.

Free bird
04-11-2018, 09:13 PM
For those who believe fzd wouldn’t do it, you’re missing the point. It’s not that fzd wanted to do it it’s that the coach wanted him to do it. In fact fzd is the only loser here, harimoto got huge confidence boost and lavish appraisals, wanghao as a youg coach got both gold and silver, and LGY escaped from a devastating defeat that might very well ended his career as one of the main players. I despise the game fixing practice, but it might very well be the case here

talbon
04-11-2018, 11:42 PM
Maybe he did, maybe not. In any case I think FZD didn't care about winning at all costs, was tired, or both.

FZD can beat almost anybody in the world at any given time, has done so repeatedly and will keep doing so in the immediate future. I don't think he is worried about Harimoto at all.

However he has lost to ML at the last truly big event, and has lost to / been given trouble by 1 or 2 other players on occasions (like LGY). He must also be aware that the game that brought him to the top-level is a bit one-dimensional, despite the fact that he is amazingly good at it. This is not sound if you want to stack the odds overwhelmingly in your favour for big titles.

I have no doubt than FZD wants to become the very best and to get the big titles, and is determined to change his game if he has to. He's been working on his push receive (rather than banana flick) a lot, and on playing a more balanced FH/BH game. Can you think of a single instance of FZD covering the middle with his FH or even willingly stepping around a year ago?

He is doing that quite often in this game against Harimoto, and you can still see that this goes against his instincts. It is quite courageous because he has to rework all of his fundamental game schemes to get his FH more into play and to find the right balance with his BH (and he might genuinely become worse). In that game, when he goes back to doing what he does best or when everything falls into place you can get a glimpse of the difference of level with Harimoto.

Nowadays when watching FZD, I look at how much he opens up with an aggressive banana flick vs. a short push. If he touches short a lot on the receive, I assume he is practicing under real conditions (remember, he used to seemingly BH flick anything). Same if he doesn't pound every other ball with his BH. That doesn't mean he wants to lose or doesn't care, just that he is determined to make true progress towards being the absolute best in the world, vs. winning his 389685th match of the year 4 sets to 0, 10-2 -5 -4 -1.

Of course, it won't be long until his short touch becomes equal to his BH flick and his FH/BH merges into one big ruthless ass-kicking automated pain distributor. O well.

Takkyu_wa_inochi
04-12-2018, 01:47 AM
Idiotic comments

TH will win the Chinese again and we will still have those stupid comments even if it happens in the Olympic final

tsunami902
04-12-2018, 02:28 AM
You table tennis players should watch the video when TH and FZD playing and Coach Lui Guoliang commenting during the game.

Free bird
04-12-2018, 02:44 AM
Idiotic comments

TH will win the Chinese again and we will still have those stupid comments even if it happens in the Olympic final

Do you know what ostriches like to do in the sand? You’re doing exactly that.
I’ve been rooting for TH since early days and just hope he can keep his mind clear. Anyone who knows some inner workings of CNT and some history would find the scenario not difficult to comprehend at all

Baal
04-12-2018, 02:55 AM
People who think they know the inner workings of the CNT usually don't have any special knowledge.

Loopadoop
04-12-2018, 02:56 AM
It is conceivable, a gold and a silver, is more important to the CNT hierarchy, than just a gold.

rainneverever
04-12-2018, 03:16 AM
So why LGY lost to FZD in the final? Was it a fixed game too based on many of your "insider" info of CNT? Last year LGY beat FZD in the Asian Cup final and FZD got runner-up for the third time. This year, isn't it reasonable that CNT coaches ordered LGY to lose so FZD doesn't have to get a fourth runner-up?

Loopadoop
04-12-2018, 03:20 AM
So why LGY lost to FZD in the final? Was it a fixed game too based on many of your "insider" info of CNT? Last year LGY beat FZD in the Asian Cup final and FZD got runner-up for the third time. This year, isn't it reasonable that CNT coaches ordered LGY to lose so FZD doesn't have to get a fourth runner-up?

That is conceivable too.

Free bird
04-12-2018, 03:31 AM
It is conceivable, a gold and a silver, is more important to the CNT hierarchy, than just a gold.

WangHao and LiuGuoZheng are two leading candidates for the lead coach position. Their accomplishments are watched closely these days......

zeio
04-12-2018, 04:20 AM
It is conceivable, a gold and a silver, is more important to the CNT hierarchy, than just a gold.
The best-case scenario would have been a gold and a bronze if FZD advanced as 1st in group, which means both players would have secured the spots for World Cup. So theoretically speaking, it's not a must to throw the match.

Suga D
04-12-2018, 04:41 PM
That's why there is a good chance he is a spy and he is there to sab0tage Japan. That explains his losing in the QF.

Dude.....
Enough Internet for today
[Emoji23]

TTFrenzy
04-12-2018, 07:43 PM
Do you know what ostriches like to do in the sand? You’re doing exactly that.
I’ve been rooting for TH since early days and just hope he can keep his mind clear. Anyone who knows some inner workings of CNT and some history would find the scenario not difficult to comprehend at all

Τhe chinese guys who actually know a thing or two about the CNT and translate and the rest of us mere mortals who have watched all of LGL's interviews can assure you that the match fixing scenario is ridiculous and plain biased conspiracy theory based on stuff that happened like 40 years ago and comparing olympic badminton with asian tt is also a false arguement.

We could talk about scenarios all day but what matters is that harimoto won the game and rather convincignly if u ask me. The logic behind these scenarions could also claim that the CNT let hirano win 3 top cnt women on purpose.

p.s. u may wanna rethink about who is acting like an ostrich :P

Free bird
04-13-2018, 05:28 AM
Τhe chinese guys who actually know a thing or two about the CNT and translate and the rest of us mere mortals who have watched all of LGL's interviews can assure you that the match fixing scenario is ridiculous and plain biased conspiracy theory based on stuff that happened like 40 years ago and comparing olympic badminton with asian tt is also a false arguement.

We could talk about scenarios all day but what matters is that harimoto won the game and rather convincignly if u ask me. The logic behind these scenarions could also claim that the CNT let hirano win 3 top cnt women on purpose.

p.s. u may wanna rethink about who is acting like an ostrich :P

So it ain’t so because LGL said so? It only happen like 40 years ago? I don’t know what to say, I give up, you win, I lost.

2004 Olympic semi- finals, WangHao beat wangLiQin easily and advanced to the finals only to lose it to RSM of Korea. Around that time, WLQ had huge advantage over WH based on their head-to-head record, but WH had much better results playing against RSM than WLQ did. Rumors flying all over the media afterwords, officials totally denied any game fixing. One year later, in a interview by a sports paper in 2005, Cai ZH, LGL’ boss, said the following

蔡振华直言不讳地说,“现在,我们一般不会再有让球,不会再有何智丽现象。必须指出的是,如果在奥运会上,那就是国家利益高于一切。比如说比较两个运动员对付下一个外国运动员谁更强的时候,我认为还应该以国家为重,这是我的原则,十多年来我们一直这样。”

A simplified translation: we don’t do that anymore. But Olympic is an exception. National interest trumps any individual interest. We should pick a player who plays better against next foreign player........

Guess who was the coach at the time? LGL. But then again since he absolutely denied it, we should just all .........

The CNT is doing better than before in this regard, it’ll take time to gain trust

bircham boi
04-13-2018, 05:47 AM
People, please! Ostriches do not and have never buried their heads in the sand! Please stop reinforcing the most ridiculous piece of nonsense. Suggesting ostriches bury their heads is even more stupid than suggesting FZD threw the game against Harimoto.

zeio
04-13-2018, 07:25 AM
Dude.....
Enough Internet for today
[Emoji23]
Hey, remember to exercise your common sense in this age of fake news.

zeio
04-13-2018, 08:05 AM
So it ain’t so because LGL said so? It only happen like 40 years ago? I don’t know what to say, I give up, you win, I lost.

2004 Olympic semi- finals, WangHao beat wangLiQin easily and advanced to the finals only to lose it to RSM of Korea. Around that time, WLQ had huge advantage over WH based on their head-to-head record, but WH had much better results playing against RSM than WLQ did. Rumors flying all over the media afterwords, officials totally denied any game fixing. One year later, in a interview by a sports paper in 2005, Cai ZH, LGL’ boss, said the following

蔡振华直言不讳地说,“现在,我们一般不会再有让球,不会再有何智丽现象。必须指出的是,如果在奥运会上,那就是国家利益高于一切。比如说比较两个运动员对付下一个外国运动员谁更强的时候,我认为还应该以国家为重,这是我的原则,十多年来我们一直这样。”

A simplified translation: we don’t do that anymore. But Olympic is an exception. National interest trumps any individual interest. We should pick a player who plays better against next foreign player........

Guess who was the coach at the time? LGL. But then again since he absolutely denied it, we should just all .........

The CNT is doing better than before in this regard, it’ll take time to gain trust
There is more to it. Back in 2013, WLQ looked back on Athens in an interview by magazine Table Tennis World and said something that's open to interpretation. This is where common sense breaks down because you can interpret it how you want.

Back in 2004, RSM said he didn't know if CNT ordered WLQ to throw the match, but if he could choose, he'd want to face WH instead, citing that WLQ was WR No.1.

Free bird
04-13-2018, 02:00 PM
People, please! Ostriches do not and have never buried their heads in the sand! Please stop reinforcing the most ridiculous piece of nonsense. Suggesting ostriches bury their heads is even more stupid than suggesting FZD threw the game against Harimoto.

So that old saying is just a fallacy? My apologies go out to all ostriches in the world, especially those down under, for the unfortunate collateral damage of their reputation ������ These birds are more intelligent than we’ve given them credit for.

Joking aside, as a tt enthusiast, I’m as excited as everybody else here to see the rise of a true tt prodigy and can’t wait for the coming rivalry of the decade between him and fzd. I just hope HT will be developed into a complete player, working more on strengthening his fitness (squat, core, ...) and other fundamentals rather than spending most of the effort on short term winning. The short sightness and eagerness to grab short-term accomplishments of his handlers can be his worst enemy.
Also watch out for his little sister of 11.

TTFrenzy
04-13-2018, 02:11 PM
So it ain’t so because LGL said so? It only happen like 40 years ago? I don’t know what to say, I give up, you win, I lost.

2004 Olympic semi- finals, WangHao beat wangLiQin easily and advanced to the finals only to lose it to RSM of Korea. Around that time, WLQ had huge advantage over WH based on their head-to-head record, but WH had much better results playing against RSM than WLQ did. Rumors flying all over the media afterwords, officials totally denied any game fixing. One year later, in a interview by a sports paper in 2005, Cai ZH, LGL’ boss, said the following

蔡振华直言不讳地说,“现在,我们一般不会再有让球,不会再有何智丽现象。必须指出的是,如果在奥运会上,那就是国家利益高于一切。比如说比较两个运动员对付下一个外国运动员谁更强的时候,我认为还应该以国家为重,这是我的原则,十多年来我们一直这样。”

A simplified translation: we don’t do that anymore. But Olympic is an exception. National interest trumps any individual interest. We should pick a player who plays better against next foreign player........

Guess who was the coach at the time? LGL. But then again since he absolutely denied it, we should just all .........

The CNT is doing better than before in this regard, it’ll take time to gain trust

The 2004 story is totally different, internal match "fixing" can be considered the same thing as choosing A player to represent china before a tournament instead of choosing player B. Its quite simple, u dont just give away a match against ur no1 hated nation and no1 competitor in a tournament that you use for testing ur abilities. The CNT does not care much about asian events, wttc olympics and world cup are what matter the most

The whole "cnt needed FZD and LGY in the final" arguement is ridiculous because they never paid any significant attention in asian events whatsoever. If one looks the history of these tours he can observe that there are many examples that CNT lost to korean and japan players

Ask ur self which is more important, winning no1 and no2 in an event that is small potatoes, or crushing ur no1 competitor and any other competitor? because since 2017 the rest of the world is closing the gap and believe more to win against the chinese. U dont just give a psychological edge to ur opponent for 2 medals in a small event.

Through the years the CNT staff does not forgive poor performances against any foreigners even in pro tours.

ZJK zhou yu LGY yan an hao shuai LJK are all examples of players who got punished in upcoming events for performing poorly or losing in pro tours against foreigners...That fact is enough for me to to justify that the CNT didnt threw the match against the no1 threat, especially when that threat is still a small boy with undeveloped and unmatured character.

WorkerBee
04-13-2018, 04:20 PM
I don't think the Tomo-Fan match was fixed. Especially watching closely several times. However, there has been some debate on the importance of the Asian Cup on having the gold and silver in a tournament that includes the top Asian players. It looks like China has won both 26 of the past 31 gold medals and 23 of the past 31 silver medals. Wow, that's quite a record, so there may be some big deal about the medals? Wikipedia:


16102

TTFrenzy
04-13-2018, 04:55 PM
I don't think the Tomo-Fan match was fixed. Especially watching closely several times. However, there has been some debate on the importance of the Asian Cup on having the gold and silver in a tournament that includes the top Asian players. It looks like China has won both 26 of the past 31 gold medals and 23 of the past 31 silver medals. Wow, that's quite a record, so there may be some big deal about the medals? Wikipedia:


16102


li xiaodong and the other tall guy who trained lixiaoxia and zhu yuling have stated that they use the asian events to test the players as a "Rehearsal" for the big events to come . off course this does not mean that they dont care about winning but they dont lose any sleep over it

several chinese both men and women have lost in singles or asian team events only to appear stronger/more solid in the next wttc/olympics/wtttc

Baal
04-13-2018, 06:32 PM
Fixed (losing on purpose) is one thing.

Not playing your best because there is not a lot at stake is a different thing.

FZD is human. He may have not battled at his best. Doesn't mean he lost on purpose. Nothing anyone has posted here convinces me he lost on purpose. I do read a lot from self proclaimed expertz on the CNT.

tropical
04-13-2018, 06:46 PM
That is why I wanted to switch my vote after falling into the conspiracy theory then Rainnever corrected me. How naive I was!

Xylit
04-13-2018, 08:05 PM
I have not read through all posts. I can't imagine that FZD has lost the match deliberately. Maybe he did not play 100% seriously and concentrated as it was not a knock-out stage match. Maybe he did not care too much about this match. Maybe he wanted to save some energy for the following matches. In the end FZD won the tournament and that is all that matters.

tsunami902
04-13-2018, 10:13 PM
Bulls eye!!! Th won a game to fdz...not a "tournament".

countrybread
04-14-2018, 12:55 AM
On the one hand, athletes have thrown matches. We learned that with Olympic badminton. Sports people are like anyone else: they occasionally bend the rules or do something crazy. Its naïve to think otherwise. But did Fan throw the match? Does he use viscaria with an infinity handle? Maybe, maybe not. I'll reserve judgment because the only proof is, "some guy on the internet said so."

Loopadoop
04-14-2018, 01:37 AM
If I were a TT CNT bureaurocrat, with Asian pride on the line in this tournament, I would sacrifice a loss in one match of a group stage to put my team players in position to win the Silver and Gold vs only one of the two.

Murre5
04-14-2018, 10:45 AM
When I saw the match it looked more like FZD lost because he played bad then Harimoto won because he played amazing.
But I don't know I don't see why China would want Harimoto to gain any confidence in beating the chinese at all? Even though that means silver and gold in a tournament.

Michal_Z
04-14-2018, 11:32 AM
Oki, I ended up with reading this topic at page two.
So this is my opinion - when you know who are you going to face based on your rank in the group, and you are certain you can go far in the draw - why would you pick up the tougher opponent in the draw?
I made this too.
Specially - from what I read, it was almost clear after being 1:1, that if he beats Harimoto, he meets LGY before the final.
So - I think he lost on purpose, but not for gain money from bets. The decision came real during the match.
And it is easy for players like this to lose on purpose. You just need to lose focus by like 5-10%. That is easy. But not easy to spot.

So all in all, my opinion is, that is was on purpose, but not for China to take medals, but for FZD to have easier draw to the final.

rainneverever
04-14-2018, 11:42 AM
Come on... If FZD wanted to avoid facing LGY before the final, he should wait to see LGY's third group match and then lose his third group match "on purpose", not the second one...
Also people need to realize losing to a Japanese is something really bad for a Chinese, worse than losing to a German or a Korean, not to mention Chinese media kept making fun of this Japanese boy who got swept in WTC.


Oki, I ended up with reading this topic at page two.
So this is my opinion - when you know who are you going to face based on your rank in the group, and you are certain you can go far in the draw - why would you pick up the tougher opponent in the draw?
I made this too.
Specially - from what I read, it was almost clear after being 1:1, that if he beats Harimoto, he meets LGY before the final.
So - I think he lost on purpose, but not for gain money from bets. The decision came real during the match.
And it is easy for players like this to lose on purpose. You just need to lose focus by like 5-10%. That is easy. But not easy to spot.

So all in all, my opinion is, that is was on purpose, but not for China to take medals, but for FZD to have easier draw to the final.

Free bird
04-14-2018, 03:12 PM
If I were a TT CNT bureaurocrat, with Asian pride on the line in this tournament, I would sacrifice a loss in one match of a group stage to put my team players in position to win the Silver and Gold vs only one of the two.

As CaiZH shockingly admitted they wouldn’t do it anymore except for Olympic Games. So I don’t think CNT bureaurocrat in general would intervene at all for such a tournament. For WH as a young coach competing for the lead coach position with LGZ at the moment it makes real difference wether both Chinese get to the finals or not. Beside, the damage of losing to a Japanese player in the group stage in such a situation is minimal compared to helping WH and LGY.

Michael_Z’ point makes a lot of sense from a player ‘s perspective. that’s totally legit and different from being forced to do so. But I don’t believe that’s the case here. Don’t think it’s in fzd’s fighting DNA to do that.

rainneverever
04-14-2018, 03:23 PM
WH's goal is simple, help FZD win whatever he needs to win. NOT LOSING... NOT LOSING to a Japanese! How many times I have to emphasize, FZD could lose his THIRD match on purpose, like making up some sudden disease or injury or just walk over. Losing SECOND match did not finalize FZD or LGY's group ranking.
And LGZ is already the head of coach group, WH is outcompeted, or in other words, it was only WJP and LGZ's competition. No room for WH.

Free bird
04-14-2018, 03:50 PM
WH's goal is simple, help FZD win whatever he needs to win. NOT LOSING... NOT LOSING to a Japanese! How many times I have to emphasize, FZD could lose his THIRD match on purpose, like making up some sudden disease or injury or just walk over. Losing SECOND match did not finalize FZD or LGY's group ranking.
And LGZ is already the head of coach group, WH is outcompeted, or in other words, it was only WJP and LGZ's competition. No room for WH.

WJP is not competing with anybody. The guy got called for duty from retirement and is not there for long. LGZ and WH are in for a long while. Yes, at the moment, LGZ seems to be in a much better position.

Also your logic about losing is not quite there if you take into account that HT/FZD and LGY/LSS are both strongest players in their perspective groups.

rainneverever
04-14-2018, 04:09 PM
On CNT's original and final entries of WTC, LGZ was listed as the coach.
On CNT's original entries of WTTTC, WJP was listed as the coach and on the final entries, LGZ was listed as the coach.
During the training before WTC, it was WJP who gave speech to players.
During the trial for WTTTC, it was WJP who gave speech to players and was interview by media.
During the closed training for WTTTC, it was first WJP then LGZ who gave speech to players and it was LGZ who was interviewed by media before the end of closed training.
There is NO WH's place.
If you don't follow CNT closely, and if you don't understand the complication between Chinese and Japanese, if you don't understand Chinese culture especially some subtle things like who got the interview and who gave speech, please don't jump on some hasty conclusions. TBH, I was so surprised that people who seem to favor FZD in the thread tried to find an excuse for his loss by making him and his coach WH lack of integrity. At least in Chinese culture, a man who loses AND who is without integrity is never looked up.



WJP is not competing with anybody. The guy got called for duty from retirement and is not there for long. LGZ and WH are in for a long while. Yes, at the moment, LGZ seems to be in a much better position.

Also your logic about losing is not quite there if you take into account that HT/FZD and LGY/LSS are both strongest players in their perspective groups.

rainneverever
04-14-2018, 04:35 PM
Plus, it is 2018 now and it is almost 10 months since China Open boycott. No matter you agree or disagree of their act, CNT players, at least ML, XX, FZD, showed that they are not someone who can be easily manipulated by coach group or bureaucrat. I respect these three players as men of loyalty and integrity. They can be defeated on a bad day, or even on a good day as no one can win forever. Why not just simply accept the defeat?

quanghuysk
04-14-2018, 08:15 PM
For my compatriot *EmRatThich*, it seems like your CNT is absolute champion and if they lose, it's just on purpose.
He will never accept the defeat lmao. :P


Plus, it is 2018 now and it is almost 10 months since China Open boycott. No matter you agree or disagree of their act, CNT players, at least ML, XX, FZD, showed that they are not someone who can be easily manipulated by coach group or bureaucrat. I respect these three players as men of loyalty and integrity. They can be defeated on a bad day, or even on a good day as no one can win forever. Why not just simply accept the defeat?

tsunami902
04-14-2018, 09:48 PM
In a simplest WORD...STRATEGY!!!

Loopadoop
04-14-2018, 10:18 PM
In my opinion, the CNT bureaurocrats see this tournament like a world championship since usually non Asians don't compete as well. So a Gold and Silver take precedence over any meaningless group stage match.

rainneverever
04-14-2018, 11:16 PM
the CNT bureaurocrats see this tournament like a world championship - Joke of the day!

UpSideDownCarl
04-15-2018, 03:01 AM
I guess this is just a thread for people who like to argue and want to think they are correct.

It doesn't really seem that interesting to me from either side of the argument.

The choices on the poll seem totally idiotic to me. "Yes! To win more medals!" "No! Harimoto is stronger"

I disagree with both choices and the way they have been worded, it is possible to disagree with both of them even if you think "yes" or "no". :)

zeio
04-15-2018, 05:55 AM
FZD's response when asked about it by a reporter 2 days ago. Time to exercise your common sense.


“假如我是故意输给张本智和,这个在这里就不方便说了。”

Free bird
04-15-2018, 07:12 PM
FZD's response when asked about it by a reporter 2 days ago. Time to exercise your common sense.

Thx for digging it out. It says a lot. Fzd didn’t deny it but rather came up with this not-convenient-to-discuss-here statement. My guess is that fzd has been under pressure for losing to TH. He felt obligated to let the true out a bit to his fans, “look......”

Nuff said, my last post here in this thread.

TTFrenzy
04-15-2018, 10:09 PM
Thx for digging it out. It says a lot. Fzd didn’t deny it but rather came up with this not-convenient-to-discuss-here statement. My guess is that fzd has been under pressure for losing to TH. He felt obligated to let the true out a bit to his fans, “look......”

Nuff said, my last post here in this thread.


conspiracy theorists are just hilarious please keep posting!

langel
04-16-2018, 06:02 AM
“假如我是故意输给张本智和,这个在这里就不方便说了。”

The more accurate translation of this is "Its not easy to say that Hariomoto had just played me".
Conspiracy suspicions work beter for FZD's rating kudos and pride.

nomanlan
04-30-2018, 03:36 PM
Interesting theory but probably not true, unless Fan ZhangDong is faking well. My gut feel is this is normal reaction of people admiring Chinese players and think they're invincible.

zeio
04-30-2018, 03:42 PM
Fingers crossed Japan is gonna reach the WTTC final so we will see another clash for real.

Takkyu_wa_inochi
04-30-2018, 10:19 PM
Fingers crossed Japan is gonna reach the WTTC final so we will see another clash for real.

I'd love to see that but after that very embarrassing loss to England, chances are high they finish 2nd of their group. Which means an encounter with China in semis or even 1/4 becomes likely.

UpSideDownCarl
04-30-2018, 11:38 PM
I guess I kept quiet on the subject before. But I figure I may as well say what I saw.

The book on Harimoto is not that complicated. If you work the BH corner of the table he is pretty amazing and it won’t expose his weaknesses. If you try to dominate the BH corner on him he is as good as anyone.

But if you exploit the FH, his weaknesses start to show up.

In that match, I don’t see FZD exploiting Harimoto’s FH that much. I know FZD likes the BH side as well. But if he felt pressured to win, FZD May have used a completely different game strategy.

I would be surprised if the CNT coaches don’t know what I just said. And it is exactly what the Korean player who knocked Harimoto out of that tournament did.

But it makes no difference to me if that loss was strategic or not.

When ML lost to Koki Niwa it was not planned. But it never happened again. We’ll see if the CNT coaches are up to that task.


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

zeio
05-01-2018, 05:46 AM
I'd love to see that but after that very embarrassing loss to England, chances are high they finish 2nd of their group. Which means an encounter with China in semis or even 1/4 becomes likely.

Even if they made the 1st in group, there is still a 50% chance they get drawn to the bottom where China will be. So, the biggest difference is they miss out on the bye in the round of 16, which provides a much needed break after 5 group matches.