Transferring conscious to subconscious

This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Aug 2017
383
269
898
Hey guys,

I've recently noticed that in training, when I know where the ball is coming to, I can use the correct grip, finger position, pressure, etc on the bat. But when playing matches, my muscles are often too tense, and I need to consciously try not to be tense, and keep the correct grip pressure, change grip between FH and BH, etc. Is there a particular training regime to try to make myself do these automatically? I noticed that sometimes I'm losing stupid points because of this, and only after realizing that I start playing better.
 

NDH

says Spin to win!
Others might disagree, but there is no substitute for experience. The more matches you play, the less nervous and tense you'll get in the match.

You'll also want to keep practicing a lot in training - Get the muscle memory used to the shots, and then let the body take over when it comes to the match.

You can't teach experience though, and that's something that will come with time.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Aug 2017
383
269
898
Others might disagree, but there is no substitute for experience. The more matches you play, the less nervous and tense you'll get in the match.

You'll also want to keep practicing a lot in training - Get the muscle memory used to the shots, and then let the body take over when it comes to the match.

You can't teach experience though, and that's something that will come with time.

I'm quite happy with my rate of improvement, but keeping the correct grip pressure is kinda driving me nuts :D . I'm thinking about too many things at the same time, and sometimes I miss the ball because of that.
 

NDH

says Spin to win!
Yeah, it sounds to me like it's just a little lack of experience.

The more matches you play, the less you think, and the more your brain just takes over.

If you train well, your body will play well, and shots will become second nature to you.

I've always been someone who believes in playing competitive matches - There is no substitute for it.

I know people who train like an absolute pro - Nailing every drill they have. Yet in the pressure of a match situation, it doesn't always work.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Active Member
Aug 2016
869
1,202
2,883
I have relatively strong feelings about this sort of thing and it seems all too common among TT boards. I mean I get it. We're here to talk TT. Don't take this the wrong way because it could sound anti technique or form. That's not what I'm about at all. But I think far too common people do this to themselves.

"Okay put the foot here, transfer weight, solid base, in position, ready? track the ball, get proper grip, contact forward through the ball but still generate spin and whip, etc... blah blah blah." What a perfect recipe for one robotic messed up stroke right?

So far you've posted twice in this thread and in both times you've mentioned finger pressure... Finger pressure. No wonder you're tense in matches. Yes more experience will help as others have said but tell us in your mind how many things are you focusing on at one time if you're all the way down to finger pressure? I'm a penholder. Finger placement is something of importance to me and something I've worked on sure. Particularly with the RPB stoke so the ball doesn't hit them and give me an error. And while I've made adjustments, I don't think it has ever crossed my mind during a match. Too many other things to think about. Namely the tactics of the match in the moment. Not technique stuff.

Best advice I can give for you is to read the book "The Inner Game of Tennis" - By Timothy Gallwey. I think this book will help you with something bigger than just your finger pressure.

I'll paraphrase one story from the book that is essentially what the book is about. So Tim was a coach. Coaching these players and after one robotic, messed up stoke after another and on a practice that wasn't going well, he tried an experiment. He told the person he was training to scrap everything they know or think about when doing X stroke. Then he said "just watch me and try to mimic what I do." And wouldn't you know it, it clicked for the person. They were much more free and simply trying to emulate what they saw. Their technique was spot on. In short, your subconscious mind can do a lot more than you probably think or know. Give it some credit. Let it go to work. I think that approach is much, much better.

So in short, lets say we're learning a forehand. You've got two choices in the steps you need to remember all in that 1 second it takes to execute the stroke. Let's bein.

Conscious mind (the one that often beats us up when we mess up)

1 - Identify what type of spin you'll be looping? Top? Back? No-spin?
2 - Move your feet. Get into position
3 - Bend your knees. Get low
4 - begin to transfer your weight
5 - Take your paddle back
(gosh I'm only at point 5 and probably could go all day. You get the point.)

or Subscious mind (the one the doesn't assign value. It just reacts)

Emulate what you see. Another way to think about it is to pretend your Ma Long. Give us your best impersonation.

cache.php


Now go and do likewise.
 
Last edited:
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Aug 2017
383
269
898
I have relatively strong feelings about this sort of thing and it seems all too common among TT boards. I mean I get it. We're here to talk TT. Don't take this the wrong way because it could sound anti technique or form. That's not what I'm about at all. But I think far too common people do this to themselves.

"Okay put the foot here, transfer weight, solid base, in position, ready? track the ball, get proper grip, contact forward through the ball but still generate spin and whip, etc... blah blah blah." What a perfect recipe for one robotic messed up stroke right?

So far you've posted twice in this thread and in both times you've mentioned finger pressure... Finger pressure. No wonder you're tense in matches. Yes more experience will help as others have said but tell us in your mind how many things are you focusing on at one time if you're all the way down to finger pressure? I'm a penholder. Finger placement is something of importance to me and something I've worked on sure. Particularly with the RPB stoke so the ball doesn't hit them and give me an error. And while I've made adjustments, I don't think it has ever crossed my mind during a match. Too many other things to think about. Namely the tactics of the match in the moment. Not technique stuff.

Best advice I can give for you is to read the book "The Inner Game of Tennis" - By Timothy Gallwey. I think this book will help you with something bigger than just your finger pressure.

I'll paraphrase one story from the book that is essentially what the book is about. So Tim was a coach. Coaching these players and after one robotic, messed up stoke after another and on a practice that wasn't going well, he tried an experiment. He told the person he was training to scrap everything they know or think about when doing X stroke. Then he said "just watch me and try to mimic what I do." And wouldn't you know it, it clicked for the person. They were much more free and simply trying to emulate what they saw. Their technique was spot on. In short, your subconscious mind can do a lot more than you probably think or know. Give it some credit. Let it go to work. I think that approach is much, much better.

So in short, lets say we're learning a forehand. You've got two choices in the steps you need to remember all in that 1 second it takes to execute the stroke. Let's bein.

Conscious mind (the one that often beats us up when we mess up)

1 - Identify what type of spin you'll be looping? Top? Back? No-spin?
2 - Move your feet. Get into position
3 - Bend your knees. Get low
4 - begin to transfer your weight
5 - Take your paddle back
(gosh I'm only at point 5 and probably could go all day. You get the point.)

or Subscious mind (the one the doesn't assign value. It just reacts)

Emulate what you see. Another way to think about it is to pretend your Ma Long. Give us your best impersonation.

cache.php


Now go and do likewise.

I did pretend to be Ma Long, but my friends thought it's kinda racist. :D Jokes aside though, I agree. I've been training a lot lately, and by fixing small details about my bad habits (finger pressure being one of them) I have actually improved a lot. But somehow, I'm still self-conscious about it, and I think I just need to play a bit more so that the new technique really settles in and becomes a habit. I noticed that both match play and training are required to improve one's game, and it's just not possible to skip one and hope to get better.
 
says I would recommend all wood. Samsonov Alpha sgs is the...
says I would recommend all wood. Samsonov Alpha sgs is the...
Active Member
Nov 2017
876
400
1,399
Read 8 reviews
I disagree with the 'experience' thing. Sure it's a facet buthere are plenty enough people who've been playing tat a low level for years or more without serious improvement because they're not doing their best to be conscious.

If you're tense then focus on making yourself relaxed all through the backswing and swing.
Trust me, at the point you touch the ball, your muscles will tense anyway, so there's no real backside to consciously practicing relaxation
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Aug 2016
1,841
2,808
13,658
Adding on to the great advice from NDH, suds, and Baal...

1) Law of Specificity - you have to keep doing the activity to get better at it. Multiball may (or may not help you). If fed fast to you, you have no time to think of grip and only have time to focus on your stroke/return the ball. You will make the adjustments subconciously after hopefully a few balls, if not buckets.

2) Visualization - off the table, visualize your perfect grip for each situation ... visualize you adjusting your grip in slow-motion, down to the tiniest detail. Visualize yourself before every shot having the perfect grip and not fussing over it. Visualize that you adjust grip automatically. The reality is the change won't be fast enough for you but with continued visualization it should help cut down the time you need to the correct grip in each stroke.
3) Modeling - similar to visualization, suds mentioned to emulate Ma Long (or whomever you want to play like) - in NLP (neuro-lingustic programming), they call this "modeling". WWMLD? What would Ma Long do? LOL BTW some say NLP is woo-woo.

4) "Mushin" - in Japanese martial arts, this is literally 'No Mind'... not that you brainless ... but you have no conscious thought in performing the motion/technique ... this comes from repetition. Can be called muscle memory as NDH mentioned. The old samurai swordsmen would continuously perform one stroke over and over and over again. At some point, you will just flow ... no conscious thought involved. Think on how babies learn to walk. Initially they stumble and fall, and they probably are consciously thinking to put one foot in front of the other, maintain balance, etc ... but soon, they are running around and parents chasing them LOL Be the baby! Mushin!!

5) Relaxation - your specific question was on grip, but tangential to that you mention tenseness in matchplay. Take a few moments to breathe. Consciously focus on your breathing ... feel the chest/abdomen moving in and out ... feel the air coming in, feel the breath going out ... one method to relax/calm down is to inhale for a count of 4, hold your breath for a count of 4, exhale for a count of 4, hold your breath for a count of 4, and repeat this cycle. Between points you may not have the luxury of running this breathing pattern for a few cycles, but practice this off the table... after a few cycles, notice the feeling you have ... actively think of this relaxed state you are in after a few cycles of this breathing pattern ... during matchplay, try to get into that state faster. Sometimes you can, using NLP terms, anchor the feeling/state to something physical ... players walk over to the net, wipe their hand on the table and return to the end of the table ... before serving, players have a ritual they go through before actually serving ... i bounce the ball on the table a few times ... some bounce off their racket ... some roll the ball on the table ... some bounce off the floor, etc. Anchor the feeling of relaxness after the breathing pattern with the physical act of bouncing the ball before serve (or whatever you do).

Truly hope these help!

~osph
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Aug 2017
383
269
898
Adding on to the great advice from NDH, suds, and Baal...

1) Law of Specificity - you have to keep doing the activity to get better at it. Multiball may (or may not help you). If fed fast to you, you have no time to think of grip and only have time to focus on your stroke/return the ball. You will make the adjustments subconciously after hopefully a few balls, if not buckets.

2) Visualization - off the table, visualize your perfect grip for each situation ... visualize you adjusting your grip in slow-motion, down to the tiniest detail. Visualize yourself before every shot having the perfect grip and not fussing over it. Visualize that you adjust grip automatically. The reality is the change won't be fast enough for you but with continued visualization it should help cut down the time you need to the correct grip in each stroke.
3) Modeling - similar to visualization, suds mentioned to emulate Ma Long (or whomever you want to play like) - in NLP (neuro-lingustic programming), they call this "modeling". WWMLD? What would Ma Long do? LOL BTW some say NLP is woo-woo.

4) "Mushin" - in Japanese martial arts, this is literally 'No Mind'... not that you brainless ... but you have no conscious thought in performing the motion/technique ... this comes from repetition. Can be called muscle memory as NDH mentioned. The old samurai swordsmen would continuously perform one stroke over and over and over again. At some point, you will just flow ... no conscious thought involved. Think on how babies learn to walk. Initially they stumble and fall, and they probably are consciously thinking to put one foot in front of the other, maintain balance, etc ... but soon, they are running around and parents chasing them LOL Be the baby! Mushin!!

5) Relaxation - your specific question was on grip, but tangential to that you mention tenseness in matchplay. Take a few moments to breathe. Consciously focus on your breathing ... feel the chest/abdomen moving in and out ... feel the air coming in, feel the breath going out ... one method to relax/calm down is to inhale for a count of 4, hold your breath for a count of 4, exhale for a count of 4, hold your breath for a count of 4, and repeat this cycle. Between points you may not have the luxury of running this breathing pattern for a few cycles, but practice this off the table... after a few cycles, notice the feeling you have ... actively think of this relaxed state you are in after a few cycles of this breathing pattern ... during matchplay, try to get into that state faster. Sometimes you can, using NLP terms, anchor the feeling/state to something physical ... players walk over to the net, wipe their hand on the table and return to the end of the table ... before serving, players have a ritual they go through before actually serving ... i bounce the ball on the table a few times ... some bounce off their racket ... some roll the ball on the table ... some bounce off the floor, etc. Anchor the feeling of relaxness after the breathing pattern with the physical act of bouncing the ball before serve (or whatever you do).

Truly hope these help!

~osph

Great post! I'll try this.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Aug 2017
184
231
962
...in training, when I know where the ball is coming to, I can use the correct grip, finger position, pressure, etc on the bat. But when playing matches, my muscles are often too tense, and I need to consciously try not to be tense, and keep the correct grip pressure, change grip between FH and BH, etc. Is there a particular training regime to try to make myself do these automatically? I noticed that sometimes I'm losing stupid points because of this, and only after realizing that I start playing better.

Do you think the tension is related to nerves from match play, or is it more from not knowing where the ball is going? If it's match play nerves, then experience playing matches will help the most. If it's not knowing where the ball is going, then drills with random elements can solve the problem, with the caveat that drills can hurt if you're practicing bad technique.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Aug 2017
383
269
898
Do you think the tension is related to nerves from match play, or is it more from not knowing where the ball is going? If it's match play nerves, then experience playing matches will help the most. If it's not knowing where the ball is going, then drills with random elements can solve the problem, with the caveat that drills can hurt if you're practicing bad technique.

I think it has to do with both. In general, it's not easy to relax my muscles if I'm not conscious about it. So it's not an automatic thing for me yet. Also, if I don't know where the ball is going to be, the sheer amount of thoughts I need to keep track of in that moment sometimes overwhelms my conscious efforts to stay relaxed. This sometimes has led to very funny situations, like losing two sets when I thought I'm playing my best, and winning back three when I gave up and didn't care.
 
says Spin and more spin.
says Spin and more spin.
Well-Known Member
Super Moderator
Dec 2010
16,146
17,685
54,747
Read 11 reviews
Some good posts already. Many of the important details have been covered. In a match, if you are thinking about technique, there is actually something that is off in your mindset. In training you can focus on technical details. In matchplay you want to be open to read what is in front of you. I think this was covered by almost every post in one way or another.

But there is a detail that caught my attention that is worth looking at.

Some of what you are talking about sounds like it is actually about transferring skills from practice to match play. And it is worth training that. Rather than trying to think about technical details in the middle of a point where you should be reading your opponent and the point you are in.

All this is connected with things that NDH, Baal, suds and OldSchool already said.

But here is a video that explains the science behind training the random element and match skills and how that has a big crossover into skills you will retain in real match situations.


I know, I have posted this video many times. It is worth understanding what they are explaining. Even though it isn’t specifically about table tennis, if you figure out ways of applying the concepts of random training to TT training, it really helps you improve your skills in a meaningful way.

When you understand what is discussed in the video, it makes perfect sense why someone could look great in training when they know exactly where each ball is going and still play at a suboptimal level when the opponent is trying to mess you up instead of trying to feed you.



Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy
 
Last edited:
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Dec 2010
3,779
4,569
16,162
You yourself have provided the problem and the solution ..
"I'm thinking about too many things at the same time, and sometimes I miss the ball because of that."
Just try to solve only one thing at a time .. and consider it a success if at the end of that day you have been able to fix that particular habit ... e.g. just grip pressure on the forehand ... don't pay attention to whether you are winning or losing the point let alone the match , consider it a win when you are able to correctly change the grip pressuer on your forehand for that day ...


and then take up something else the next time .. most of it is being impatient about the development ... TT is a complex sport and if you are learning as an adult its not going to flow like it does with the kids ... you have to keep working on small things and then build the whole ...

 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Aug 2016
1,841
2,808
13,658
I knew you post this!

Some good posts already. Many of the important details have been covered. In a match, if you are thinking about technique, there is actually something that is off in your mindset. In training you can focus on technical details. In matchplay you want to be open to read what is in front of you. I think this was covered by almost every post in one way or another.

But there is a detail that caught my attention that is worth looking at.

Some of what you are talking about sounds like it is actually about transferring skills from practice to match play. And it is worth training that. Rather than trying to think about technical details in the middle of a point where you should be reading your opponent and the point you are in.

All this is connected with things that NDH, Baal, suds and OldSchool already said.

But here is a video that explains the science behind training the random element and match skills and how that has a big crossover into skills you will retain in real match situations.

https://youtu.be/m_5nWKyRzKM

I know, I have posted this video many times. It is worth understanding what they are explaining. Even though it isn’t specifically about table tennis, if you figure out ways of applying the concepts of random training to TT training, it really helps you improve your skills in a meaningful way.

When you understand what is discussed in the video, it makes perfect sense why someone could look great in training when they know exactly where each ball is going and still play at a suboptimal level when the opponent is trying to mess you up instead of trying to feed you.



Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Aug 2016
1,841
2,808
13,658
This sometimes has led to very funny situations, like losing two sets when I thought I'm playing my best, and winning back three when I gave up and didn't care.

You have an expectation on outcome in the first 2 games ... this causes tenseness when you lose the point. Which is like a snowball rolling down the hill, it gets bigger and bigger ... your previous lost points weighs heavier and heavier

In the last 3 games, you just let it all go. You didn't care if you won or lost, you just played. You were expressing yourself, your true self, and not expressing your outcome expectation. Once you let go of preconceived expectations, you are truly free.

Breathe, focus on one point at a time. Don't think of the previous points. Clear your mind. Refocus. Focus only on the here and now.

Good luck in your TT!
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Aug 2017
383
269
898
Great video Carl. I sent it to my coach as well.


Some good posts already. Many of the important details have been covered. In a match, if you are thinking about technique, there is actually something that is off in your mindset. In training you can focus on technical details. In matchplay you want to be open to read what is in front of you. I think this was covered by almost every post in one way or another.

But there is a detail that caught my attention that is worth looking at.

Some of what you are talking about sounds like it is actually about transferring skills from practice to match play. And it is worth training that. Rather than trying to think about technical details in the middle of a point where you should be reading your opponent and the point you are in.

All this is connected with things that NDH, Baal, suds and OldSchool already said.

But here is a video that explains the science behind training the random element and match skills and how that has a big crossover into skills you will retain in real match situations.

https://youtu.be/m_5nWKyRzKM

I know, I have posted this video many times. It is worth understanding what they are explaining. Even though it isn’t specifically about table tennis, if you figure out ways of applying the concepts of random training to TT training, it really helps you improve your skills in a meaningful way.

When you understand what is discussed in the video, it makes perfect sense why someone could look great in training when they know exactly where each ball is going and still play at a suboptimal level when the opponent is trying to mess you up instead of trying to feed you.



Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Aug 2017
383
269
898
You have an expectation on outcome in the first 2 games ... this causes tenseness when you lose the point. Which is like a snowball rolling down the hill, it gets bigger and bigger ... your previous lost points weighs heavier and heavier

In the last 3 games, you just let it all go. You didn't care if you won or lost, you just played. You were expressing yourself, your true self, and not expressing your outcome expectation. Once you let go of preconceived expectations, you are truly free.

Breathe, focus on one point at a time. Don't think of the previous points. Clear your mind. Refocus. Focus only on the here and now.

Good luck in your TT!
That was almost poetic! Thanks.
 
  • Like
Reactions: OldschoolPenholder
says Spin and more spin.
says Spin and more spin.
Well-Known Member
Super Moderator
Dec 2010
16,146
17,685
54,747
Read 11 reviews
You have an expectation on outcome in the first 2 games ... this causes tenseness when you lose the point. Which is like a snowball rolling down the hill, it gets bigger and bigger ... your previous lost points weighs heavier and heavier

In the last 3 games, you just let it all go. You didn't care if you won or lost, you just played. You were expressing yourself, your true self, and not expressing your outcome expectation. Once you let go of preconceived expectations, you are truly free.

Breathe, focus on one point at a time. Don't think of the previous points. Clear your mind. Refocus. Focus only on the here and now.

Good luck in your TT!

I think I read this in Lao Tzu’s Dao Te Ching. [emoji2]

I knew you post this!

Of course you did. It may be the only thing I have said in months. But I say it over and over. [emoji2]


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: OldschoolPenholder
Top