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Alpay
05-10-2018, 07:18 PM
Hi, I want to serve short with a lot of underspin but I can't serve with heavy underspin. It is just a normal underspin. I am using H3 Blue Sponge. How to serve heavy underspin with pendulum?

KM1976
05-10-2018, 07:26 PM
Here you go - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MK3tt6-1c9Y&t=3s

Lightzy
05-10-2018, 08:48 PM
The angle of the racket is obviously important but there's so many things... It's really impossible to 'teach' or explain. You just have to practice a lot.

For example, a few of the things that make a huge difference but are very hard to explain:
1) How exactly to hold the racket (depends on the size of your hands, the length of your arms, the size and shape of the handle, what you find physiologically comfortable or uncomfortable.. It's very idiosyncratic but it has the biggest effect on your serves really.)

2) How tight you grip the racket (also depends on how you hold the racket, because fingers apply pressure in different spots, but generally a tight grip at contact is important for generating high spin)

3) The behavior of your personal rubber (my tacky, hard sponge battle II behaves radically different than my soft, non tacky AK47 Blue on the backhand. It grabs the ball and imparts more directional momentum, so you have to be very careful to really generate a lot of spin on the serve or it'll all turn into forward momentum and you'll get high/net/out balls)

4) Your throw (higher throw can make more spin, if you want a really strong backspin serve, but too much can be very hard to control consistently).

5) Where you hit the ball in relation to your body (a bit behind, right in front, close or far from the body?)


In short there are a ton of variables which are unique to you and so only a lot of practice will do it, but here's the best tutorial:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjm9PvelFnA


Also notice the big difference between real backspin serves and so-so backspin serves: The real backspin serve is fast. The ball is fast, and it jumps back to the net fast. It can be fast because it has such a shitton of backspin on it. Look at ma lins serve at the beginning of the video. So set your goal not just to have a lot of backspin, but a lot of backspin and speed :)

UpSideDownCarl
05-10-2018, 11:38 PM
The two people who can probably give the best info on this subject from the forum are Der_Echte and NextLevel. Both can get very high levels of spin on their serves. And both spent a decent amount of time working on their serves.

I am simply going to throw a few terms out there that have a lot to do with the subject of serving effectively.

1) Whip Mechanics
2) Grip Pressure
3) Deception
4) Angle of Blade Face

Then I am going to discuss one concept. In low level strategy, serves are often thought of for winning points. For higher level strategy, serves are often thought of for giving you a good third ball to control the point.

Deception and varied levels of spin are useful ways of using the serve to give you the third ball you want.

It is useful to learn how to generate massive amounts of spin on your serves. But not because you should always use that massive amount of spin. Instead, the heavy serves serve to let your deception be more effective. So that when you show heavy and make your opponent respect your heavy serves, your light and no spin serves give you easier third balls to attack and control the table.

If you are playing decent level players, the most useful thing you can get from your serves is a ball that is not exactly as low as your opponent wanted. Because your serves will come back against a high level player. And it is low level strategy that will get you nowhere fast to simply hope you can win the points simply on the serve itself.

You have to back up your serve with a plan of attack.


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

songdavid98
05-11-2018, 12:39 AM
How are you doing your serve right now? do you have a video of you just practicing the underspin serve?

from what I saw from your latest video, it seems that you aren't even trying to make underspin.

Baal
05-11-2018, 01:36 AM
Your serves are horrible. Nobody has ever taught you. You need to start a bit lower down on the technique scale.

Don't worry about spin at first. Start by learning to serve anywhere you want on the table. Learn to serve short and low.

I repeat. Learn how to get a backspin serve that barely clears the net. To either side of the table. At almost any depth but mainly short at first. Don't worry about how heavy the spin is. The key word here is low.

Master that. You will need buckets of balls, a lot of patience and willingness to figure it out. It is harder than it looks. It will take awhile.

After that, and not before that, come back. We will then talk about how to vary the spin. But until you can do the step 1 it is pointless to try to get to step 2. Actually, once you can do step 1, then step 2 is "what actually makes a serve good?". Until you understand that, and you clearly don't know, it is pointless to talk too much about spin.

But you can get there.

Andy44
05-11-2018, 05:03 AM
Listen to Baal if you want a more effective serve as quickly as possible. But since the question was about developing heavier spin, the answer is to do the opposite of what he suggested; don't worry about placement at first, just focus on generating lots of spin. Underspin on a pendulum serve is usually side-under, not pure under, which in practice means the underspin component is less heavy. So if you want to learn a really heavy underspin serve, first learn a pure underspin serve. The videos linked above are good places to start. Concentrate on proper whip mechanics (keep it short), ball contact (roughly six o'clock like the video says), and initial ball trajectory (not down into the table, but a very shallow arc up off the face of the racket). Plan to spend weeks to months of daily practice before you really get it (consistent good contact is the hardest part), and don't get frustrated because you will get it if you keep trying.

brokenball
05-12-2018, 12:42 AM
Ditto what Andy said. The paddle must be horizontal. How high the ball is tossed and the elevation above the table where the ball is hit is critical to keeping the ball low. The forward motion will come from tangential forces or friction from the paddle that will exert a horizontal force that gets converted to spin and forward speed. The normal force determines how hight the ball will bounce. The secret is the height of the toss, the height at where the ball is hit and lots of horizontal motion using lots of wrist.
I don't need to hide this serve much. I like to serve it to the pocket or wide.

For really short skinny serves the stroke must be upwards with the paddle tilted back a little from horizontal. This is difficult to do. I usually practice by serving the ball so it goes to the end of the table and rolls back to the net.

Ilia Minkin
05-12-2018, 01:59 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0GrJ_AvIBc

UpSideDownCarl
05-12-2018, 08:57 AM
Your serves are horrible. Nobody has ever taught you. You need to start a bit lower down on the technique scale.

Don't worry about spin at first. Start by learning to serve anywhere you want on the table. Learn to serve short and low.

I repeat. Learn how to get a backspin serve that barely clears the net. To either side of the table. At almost any depth but mainly short at first. Don't worry about how heavy the spin is. The key word here is low.

Master that. You will need buckets of balls, a lot of patience and willingness to figure it out. It is harder than it looks. It will take awhile.

After that, and not before that, come back. We will then talk about how to vary the spin. But until you can do the step 1 it is pointless to try to get to step 2. Actually, once you can do step 1, then step 2 is "what actually makes a serve good?". Until you understand that, and you clearly don't know, it is pointless to talk too much about spin.

But you can get there.

I do think this is really valuable info.

passifid
05-12-2018, 09:38 AM
It was harsh sounding but the low is much more important than spin is true of short serves. Regardless of level

Baal
05-12-2018, 04:34 PM
The thing is that once he develops touch and feel to totally control trajectory of serves, it is suddenly easier to learn to vary spin (while disguising it). Converesly without developing that touch and feel he will never generate EFFECTIVE spin.

Again, OP should think a bit and write here what he thinks makes a serve good. I ask students that a lot. It is quite revealing.

yogi_bear
05-12-2018, 06:19 PM
Baal is correct. Touch, feel and contact are huge factors for creating huge spin. Wrist movement also helps a lot.

Andy44
05-12-2018, 07:09 PM
The thing is that once he develops touch and feel to totally control trajectory of serves, it is suddenly easier to learn to vary spin (while disguising it). Converesly without developing that touch and feel he will never generate EFFECTIVE spin.

Again, OP should think a bit and write here what he thinks makes a serve good. I ask students that a lot. It is quite revealing.

Is it necessarily better to develop total control of trajectory before focusing on spin development? That's an interesting contention. No doubt it's easier to develop the touch for one if you can already do the other. My touch and control improved the most during the time I focused on learning heavy underspin. I found it the hardest serve to learn by far and (maybe for that reason) the most helpful in improving the rest of my game.

No argument though that placement is more important than spin in making an effective serve. Keeping in mind that good spin control makes placement and deception easier. Not to mention that as you learn to generate and control spin on your own serve, you gain ability to read that spin on your opponent's serve.

passifid
05-12-2018, 07:22 PM
For serves yes.. you litrally can smash every high serve that's short ezpz.. you need to be able to make it at least flick needed before worrying about serve spin

UpSideDownCarl
05-12-2018, 07:49 PM
Another thing is, if you are talking about that you are a pro, and that you want to be in the top 200 in the world, then you should understand that long, high, slow serves without much spin and without much variation, are actually exactly how Baal described them.

And you could learn to serve heavy long serves without being able to translate that at all into heavy short serves. And Alpay does need to back up to the basics with his serves.

And for a player who has progressed to the level he is while still not really knowing how to serve or serve/receive strategy, it seems to me that Baal is actually giving the information Alpay needs to hear.

Baal
05-12-2018, 10:42 PM
So, what makes a serve good?

Ilia Minkin
05-12-2018, 11:23 PM
So, what makes a serve good?

It depends.

Baal
05-13-2018, 12:26 AM
No. There is a universal answer to that.

A good serve puts the server in control of the point by evoking a weak return.

What causes that does depend on many things.

Often this is because it is something other than what it appears to be. A serve with very heavy spin that is obvious is not as useful as a spin with relatively little spin that the opponent thinks has more spin. And vice versa,

If there is a serve the opponent simply can't deal with and he knows it is coming that works too but a server may have to probe a bit during a match to find that, which requires being able to consistently execute diffefent serves. Diffetent locations, trajectories or spins.

Beginners often think it is only about having heavy spin serves. It is good to have a few. But for most peop,e that is not a good thing to try to develop first. But early on you should work to develop serves that have different amounts of spin that look exactly the same. And since those serves may not be very loaded, it is good to start by learning to keep them low. They are harder to attack and they elicit more return errors.

UpSideDownCarl
05-13-2018, 12:53 AM
And a serve that is high, no matter how much spin, is susceptible to a pretty savage return if the returner reads the spin.

Der_Echte
05-13-2018, 03:09 AM
The serve is supposed to give the server an immediate offensive advantage. That advantage is only as good as your serve level and your opponent's receive level. If opponent's receive level is way better than your serve level, you are screwed, blued, and TATTOOED. Stil, even then, you could get by on variation and low placement to at least narrow down the possible returns so at least you can anticipate something, or maybe surprise that them, but don't count on it too much if they are way better.

There is no single correct approach to learning effective serves. My definition is a serve or serves that set you up to play the shot you are looking to play, usually a 3rd ball attack or a tactical passing shot to get into the kind of rally you want, if you want a rally. You can tell if a server has effective serves by what/how the server follows up on or the clueless look on receiver. Effective serves should integrate with your attacking strategy and get the most predicable balls possible while making opponent tentative to be effective aggressive vs you. If you are a retriever/fisher/lobber/chopper, then serve what gets the kind of attack you want to defend or get back.

Variety of spins while showing the same motion is the key to getting your opponent's to buy their own underwear from you at inflated prices. It is essential that you early on show your underspin is HEAVY and do it effortlessly. Once you sell them on that (not very hard - they will realize the first ball or two into the net) you can letter pull the carpet out from them with light or no spin serves. Those serves will not work if you do not sell them with your same serve motion nor will they work if they are poor quality.

Control over bat angles, grip pressure at/during impact, whip, and amount/type of impact are crucial.

There is more than one approach to getting "there". Many pros/cons about each way.Since I believe in practicing efectively and not wasting effort, time or learning, I would say to NOT try to stand at the table and try to get everything right in one shot. All that does is keep repeating your mistakes, (too much to get right at one time) discourage and de-motivate you, and get you to quit without gaining anything except carpal tunnel syndrom.

I advocate a progressive approach and there are several. My favorite is to do it in 3 stages. First just spin the ball heavy under while standing up away from table, get ball to come back. This isolates you to do just the ball toss, swing timing, whip and bat angle at imnpact. (FLAT DIRECTLY UNDER BALL with any direction of tip down or up with forward swing - a little lift) That sounds like a lot, but it isn't. Later, do the same, but loft the ball high from a meter behind table, make ball spin back. You are focusing only on high spin. Later, go to table and put it all together, no worry about height too much, you tighten that up when you get the timing and bat angles down. Later, you work on after motions.

All in all, loose muscles make a whip, Too many players tighten up and loose their whip. LIGHT grip pressure, later you can firm it up right at or during impact. Almost EVERYONE fails to keep the bat flat even with table and/or drops bat. Don't do it, just go forward with open bat impact under ball loose grip and whip it good. You do not need a long motion. Toss the ball up higher to give you more time to see the ball. You do not have to be a High Toss Servy Bastard like Der_Echte (called so by Next Level), but give yourself more time to see the ball and prepare your swing. You do not need a mile long backswing, a short area whip will do just fine.

andy77
05-29-2018, 12:12 AM
This guy along with table tennis tomorrow is good