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TableTennisDaily
07-17-2018, 08:51 PM
Hey guys,

So we recently saw Jin Ueda's (https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/showthread.php?18171-Jin-Ueda-s-backspin-touch-is-NEXT-LEVEL!) incredible return of serve. Due to its interest we thought it would be a good idea to resurface Can Akkuzu's epic version!

If you havent already seen it, or want to see it again check it out below! :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVcgZi-iGeo

JHB
07-17-2018, 09:11 PM
Wtf rubbers were on that bat ??

talbon
07-18-2018, 01:54 AM
It is all about timing and contact. You have to be there very early on the bounce. Rubbers don't matter that much here. You are simply using the spin and momentum from the serve. (not to say he isn't adding quite a bit to it too.)

JHB
07-18-2018, 04:30 PM
It is all about timing and contact. You have to be there very early on the bounce. Rubbers don't matter that much here. You are simply using the spin and momentum from the serve. (not to say he isn't adding quite a bit to it too.)

Maybe, but..... look at the backhand returns. His bat looks nearer to vertical than horizontal; he is putting very little "action" on the ball, if he were then the edge of his bat would be hitting the table.He appears to be doing little more than putting the bat behind the ball. He is definitely taking it near the half-volley though, I like to do that and I certainly put some backspin on the ball when I do it - I can't get it to just drop over the net though, too much catapult !

Suga D
07-18-2018, 07:44 PM
That's mostly his touch.
If I recall correctly then Dan was doing an Equipment review of the Cornilleau rubber that Can Akkuzu and Gauzy have been using.
So it definitely was a non tacky rubber that was used.

Ioiettino
07-18-2018, 09:41 PM
Aye he's using Target Pro rubbers, 51 FH and 47 BH if I recall correctly from the video. But I agree with Talbon that he could probably do it with a frying pan.

Dan's face at around the 23s mark is priceless.

JHB
07-19-2018, 09:44 PM
Definitely a very fine touch. Watching the slow-mo, he is hitting the ball quite near the top edge of the blade on both FH and BH. Maybe that is the secret to the amount of backspin.

brokenball
07-19-2018, 10:14 PM
The serve needs to have a lot of back spin to start with. If the serve was a dead ball then the serve return would not have as much back spin. I don't see enough wrist action by the serve returner to generate that much back spin.

Suga D
07-19-2018, 10:18 PM
The serve needs to have a lot of back spin to start with. If the serve was a dead ball then the serve return would not have as much back spin. I don't see enough wrist action by the serve returner to generate that much back spin.

That's really complimenting Dan.
:)
Maybe he can say a word or two.

Lightzy
07-19-2018, 11:04 PM
Nah. Getting the ball to return is much easier to accomplish against a dead ball or a topspin ball. You have to know the technique. There you generate the spin or ADD to the spin which makes it incredibly spinny. With a backspin serve you have to cut against the spin, meaning it's easy to return the ball, but harder to put a lot of spin on it.
With low-energy topspin serves and empty serves you can contact directly.

Of course it can be very deceptive. It's not at all completely about the action. Because with a heavy underspin ball you can contact the ball from the side, avoiding the backspin, and then when it gets back it still has all that spin and so it spins back and looping sideways. You dont necessarily have to put a lot of spin on it yourself.

talbon
07-19-2018, 11:29 PM
@JHB. There's quite a bit of action, although it's very compact and very sharp. For the backhand return, look at where the bat starts (for instance 00:21) and stops (00:22), including its height over the table. Another example at 00:42 (everything is executed within half a second).

Imho you have to get low over the table, get to the bounce really early to (sneak under the ball and) contact the ball tangentially to the trajectory, roughly along the axis of rotation. Disclaimer: I'm not sure because I'm just a random player. I decline responsibility if this is all rubbish :)

If you get there late, especially after the peak of the bounce, the ball pops up or goes long. I think the ball would then contact the bat at a high angle (the trajectory is almost orthogonal to the face plane). The ball would just "hit" the bat rather than a nice feel of brushing/grazing the ball not too thinly. So the momentum is not converted into spin, or the incoming spin adds to the momentum, or whatever but the receive won't be as tight.

For a side-top serve, the bat face is kept closer to vertical, and you dig to add spin / to keep the return low; same as for a chop-block. For a (side-)heavy backspin, the bat face is closer to horizontal, or even slightly facing you.

Dan's serve seems to be generally side / side-top. You can hear that he gets good brush action. There should be a fair amount of spin from the serve, hence as brokenball said there is more backspin in the return without trying hard.

CluelessTTDad
07-20-2018, 09:49 AM
[QUOTE=talbon;237866] Imho you have to get low over the table, get to the bounce really early to (sneak under the ball and) contact the ball tangentially to the trajectory, roughly along the axis of rotation.

This seems right to me... I remember seeing an EmRatThich video where he showed someone doing exactly this, contacting the ball at right-angles to the spin and thus returning it without changing the serves spin at all.

I may be wrong too... I've tried this but it's incredibly difficult for a novice like me.

JHB
07-20-2018, 05:37 PM
[QUOTE=talbon;237866] Imho you have to get low over the table, get to the bounce really early to (sneak under the ball and) contact the ball tangentially to the trajectory, roughly along the axis of rotation.

This seems right to me... I remember seeing an EmRatThich video where he showed someone doing exactly this, contacting the ball at right-angles to the spin and thus returning it without changing the serves spin at all.

I may be wrong too... I've tried this but it's incredibly difficult for a novice like me.

Umm......if Dan is serving backspin (not entirely clear but that's what I think I'm seeing) then surely to return the ball with heavy backspin means reversing Dan's spin ? If the serve is returned without changing the spin at all then it arrives back at Dan's end as topspin.

suds79
07-20-2018, 07:10 PM
I remember it was this video and some others that changed my thinking on how to handle sidepin or even some side/top serves. I use to think you always have to attack those. And some players like topspin balls. So really you're playing right into their hands.

But then after seeing this and developing my touch, I've since learned that you can chop-block almost any type of serve if your touch is good enough. It has been a great change of pace for me in being able to now be more unpredictable as to what type of spin I'll give back to the server if I decide to attack it or push.

Not a master at it yet. But working on it.

Lightzy
07-20-2018, 07:15 PM
But then after seeing this and developing my touch, I've since learned that you can chop-block almost any type of serve if your touch is good enough. It has been a great change of pace for me in being able to now be more unpredictable as to what type of spin I'll give back to the server if I decide to attack it or push.

Not a master at it yet. But working on it.

Exactly.
If you can chop down on an empty/topspin serve properly and put a ton of backspin on it, almost no 'club' player will have an easy time lifting it, which is also almost impossible if it's as short as Can's. Then they have to send it back short, which is also difficult because of the amount of backspin on the ball. And then you get a long ball with barely any backspin on it, and its your point.
It's a very important skill.

talbon
07-20-2018, 07:41 PM
Umm......if Dan is serving backspin (not entirely clear but that's what I think I'm seeing) then surely to return the ball with heavy backspin means reversing Dan's spin ? If the serve is returned without changing the spin at all then it arrives back at Dan's end as topspin.
It is easy to tell approximately from the receive what he is serving. Side / side-top. If you look at the serve action, although the point of contact is often out of the field of view, it is also sensible. If you've seen Dan in other videos too. For instance, here: https://youtu.be/OoL8LbEjTHY?t=2m25s (good example because you're seeing it as backspin).

In the video with Can, there is no way it can be backspin when Can successfully receives with a bat almost vertical. It should go straight in the net, or touch the table before even touching the net. Also, if you turn on the volume, you can hear Can hitting the table. He would have no reason to dig downwards if it was backspin.

You don't have to return the spin as is, though. It is not unnatural to think about it that way because the archetypal example is the chop block (return heavy topspin as heavy backspin, and with inverted rubber it's sometimes the only way to do so). But chop blocks can also result in slightly floaty balls, that are looped long or popped up because of misreading them as heavy backspin. It's actually a bit unpredictable.