When to take the initiative during a push rally?

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I think that OP might be asking a scenario where at a crucial point, you enter a push rally with you opponent as both don't want to make an unforced error and loose the point. So, both don't want to take the risk of opening the ball. I have seen it so many times and also have been in this situation multiple times.
I can say from my experience that, firstly, our topspin skills should develop upto an extent that we should be able to read the backspin on the ball and make adjustments. Good opponents along with ball placement also consistently vary the spin on the push with light or heavy. So, if we can read the spin, we can actually select the ball against which we are most comfortable.
Secondly, sometimes in such crucial points, we also telegraph our intents to the opponent. For me, this happens when I pivot on my backhand side after pushing. This gives my opponent a golden opportunity to either place the ball wide or put a heavy fast push on my backhand corner.
So, couple of pointers from my experience, either read the spin on the incoming push or push to your opponents playing elbow so that you get a weaker ball. Second, do not telegraph your intents if possible.
 
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I would say you want to mix it up. But you want to be able to attack any push regardless of where it is. If you can attack any and all pushes, then when you drop the ball short, it is much more effective since your opponent has to be prepared for the attack.

It may take some work and practice to be able to do that. But it would be worth the work.
 
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If you don't develop a habit of trying to attack your opponent's return of serve (third ball) ALWAYS, you'll always lose to those who do.

Try to attack any push that you can reach. If you can reach it you can topspin it.
 
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When you are in a position where you can react quickly to do a loop properly. Either change the placement of the push first or lift the ball instead of pushing it back so that when it is returned you can loop it. In multiball drills, you can practice this by giving random placement of pushes and looping it back.
 
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I think it also depends on the skill level of the opponent. I usually try to lift the ball with top spin as early as possible if I'm meeting someone who has pushing as one of their top specialities (i.e. slightly defensive type players who can put a wicked amount of backspin on the ball with inverted rubbers). I would never outlast such a player in an endless push rally so looping the ball gives me a bigger chance of winning the point even though the risk is a bit higher. Just my 0.02$
 
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This is another situation where years of experience and a feel for the risks will guide you what to do.

Does opponent attack and win it in the push rally? Then you are not under pressure to attack right away. (although if you can it is better)

Do you feel bad pushing it ten times before an error? Then give a light fast one deep to FH corner and attack the next one.

Are you having problems reading the spin? Push it back with a light touch and light spin safe if you can and open the next ball.

Do you have a problem telling where the ball will go? The push right at opponent deep and fast and look to attack.

You can also wait until opponent pushes it where you want it.

Are you lower percentage attacking underspin later in push rally? Practice.
 
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I would just say that - Attack or defense should be by choice and not by compulsion. By which I mean, that based on the playing style of the opponent, one should be able to always keep the ball and play. Ok, I am not a pro and I think this approach of attacking or defending by choice helps me in finding where on the table I can keep a ball and still not get a strong attack from my opponent. For my game, I realize that if I keep on attacking every long ball, I fail to change gears and often feel rushed on my subsequent shots. This is another pointer, which I keep observing within that am I feeling rushed or felt like putting too much effort on my shots? If yes, then why? Can I play more balanced and be tactically more aware. Can I put my opponent in a box by playing more balanced and more relaxed.
Well, I feel this approach give me more confidence and I feel that I make less unforced errors.
 
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Perhaps a simplified approach to the question of when to take initiative in a push rally is to attach as early as you can.

If one is uncomfortable or lower percentage at this, then be ready to get better at defense, looping, or picking up the ball. It is a strategic goal.

I gave a few suggestions on how to get a more predictable ball or an easier chance.

It is all about the numbers and your courage. Better numbers on your side and courage can go a long way.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
 
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I gave a few suggestions on how to get a more predictable ball or an easier chance.

Interesting thread. How would your strategy be when pushing against a left hander, to get an easier opener? Say this guy loves long, fast pushes with very good depth. Mostly placed at almost the end of the table, often straight into the body, crossover or corners. Not so easy to loop those as a third ball, imho, since you might stand near the table in the beginning of the rally. And if your opponent is a decent flat hitter, you have to be careful with a half-decent loop or higher ball returns.
 
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Interesting thread. How would your strategy be when pushing against a left hander, to get an easier opener? Say this guy loves long, fast pushes with very good depth. Mostly placed at almost the end of the table, often straight into the body, crossover or corners. Not so easy to loop those as a third ball, imho, since you might stand near the table in the beginning of the rally. And if your opponent is a decent flat hitter, you have to be careful with a half-decent loop or higher ball returns.

The thread was about a push rally, so that is where each player is pushing 2 or more balls... and neither has made a first topspin ball yet.

Your described situation is different, as your lefty likes to attack balls in the three likely spots. That is a difficult situation. You have to learn where he/she will be more inconsistent. You have to learn where their middle truly is. Sometimes it is a moving target. You have to watch their feet position and stance tendencies.

VS a lefty as a righty player, a well developed off the bounce BH is one of your best friends to pressure lefties or drive it by them or get errors to rush them.

VS hitters, it can be tough. Hard hit flat balls have only a small margin for error and they get streaky. You have to find a way to break rhythm and get them into low percentage chances, low height and placement help. Usually, they really hate extreme topspin.. but you have to have a chance to get that shot in... Heavy spin to them is like sunlight to Dracula. You have to keep probing and fighting, never give up, even if they keep landing shots, you just find a ball they are low percentage or a movement they hate... I faced a hard hitting guy with next to zero spin a couple hours ago. I was down 0-2 and 1-2 at 2-8 and 3-9 and found a way to come back point by point to win 3-2. Sometimes it is courage to do what you know will work, even if it didn't work the point before or even all match. Sometimes you discover an adjustment. TT is a game of adjustments and counter adjustments.

Below I discuss some tactics for any player you face who is not attacking you right away, but may want to attack you.

Let's say you for whatever reason are not going to attack the underspin... but it is likely opponent will. There are some things to wreck opponent's consistency. These tactics will center on variation of suddenness, variation of placement, variation of spin, variation of pace, variation of depth... sometimes variation of height (some do not attack high to BH for example.

Those 5 things I described... you can change those up... if you decide you do not attack. You do not want to feed it right to the middle depth of table or to the middle FH if they are good attacking FH like most players.

Some players do not move suddenly to the FH, so you quickly off the bounce push to FH corner or past it and watch them try for a low percentage chance.

Some players are great on their wide FH, so what do you do? Feed that wide FHG and allow them to attack cross court... where you are ready to block it by them on their BH or get a weak ball to attack for a winner. Some players do not yet topspin well on wide FH balls, but can hit if high, so a low spinny push their gets you points from errors.

Some players do not read a change of spin. You have to sell it with your follow through and make it with your touch and acceleration on a short stroke... Give a spinny one, then impact light and follow through right after ball left rubber... of just be subtle and do the same stroke... opponent reads it as under, but it is light, then pops it up for you to kill or drive... or pushes long out.

You can push to middle depth, then deep right at them and be ready to attack or get a better ball to setup something else on next ball.

You can push a foot or two from ball a couple times... then step in and push suddenly right off the bounce... you can also add a change of direction with this... very effective. Also easy to change spins this way too. hard for opponent to read it sometimes. This is a versatile tactic.

Even if you face a Rambo attacker... never get them in a rhythm. Make them change directions suddenly. Figure out which ball they want to attack that they have lower percentage, but time after time want to attack it like Dracula blood lust.
 
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The post above is real long and a lot of stuff to digest, but the gist of it is, if you are for whatever reason going to push, there are variations you can use to increase your consistency and increase their risk.

Whenever any of you have time to goof off at the club, try some of the tactics out, try to see which ones you can use right away and which ones you will need to practice to work better.

We in macho man TT will always want to say attack first and always... there is a good reason for it - consistent strong attackers have a huge advantage when they take initiative in a rally. But... not every point in TT is won by Rambo knifing the enemy to disable their trigger finger. Sometimes you setup the point for opponent to fail. We are not all Rambo warriors and even the Rambo warriors are not always Rambo warriors or play that style every point every ball.

It is simply smart risk management and you have to have judgment on how to apply it.
 
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great post by Der_Echte and a great comeback victory against that hitter !

No matter what the score, dude showed me who waz daddy that match... and it sure wasn't Der_Echte. Games one and two were so bad for me he made me look like I was 3-4 levels lower player... and we are pretty close in level.
 
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Thanks. Some really good information about those push variations :) Just to explain a bit more, the lefty example was about a push rally, albeit a tad different one. It is the lefty that "attacks" with those long, well placed and very deep pushes. And if you do not manage to get out out of it sooner or later, by attacking yourself, the risk just becomes higher for a backhand flathit attack to end the rally. Many good tactics in this thread, though.
 
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Just depends.

If you're facing someone who stinks at the push game and/or really prefers topspin open play, might as well drive them crazy and keep the game there.

But generally I try to open up on the first ball I deem to be easy in my head. Furthermore, practicing looping backspin helps a lot.

That being said, i've been practicing trying to vary my pushes. Develop a heavy push with a lot of backspin and what I'd call a touch or lift. That's where you get under the ball but you don't jab so hard at it. You more just lift the ball over the net. It will still be backspin but not nearly as heavy. Think of it as fishing but over the table. If your opponent isn't quick at reading this as light backspin, if they push again, that ball will pop up and you can kill it.

And for the ones who do read that, they'll generally attack it so after you do the lift, take a step back and be ready to counter that topspin ball just in case.
 
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If you want to develop an aggressive style of playing and focus on the long term development of your game, then loop as soon as you get a long (or a half-long) ball. If you want to win right now, loop if it gives you an advantage. If it does not, don't loop: looping first gives an advantage only if your opponent has a problem returning the first and subsequent attacks. Unfortunately, it is not always the case, especially if you are not a WR100 player.
 

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My usual rule is not to be the one to push a second time. If I'm not comfortable with the serve or 3rd ball, I feel totally okay to push it back. But if my oppponent pushes back my push I want to loop or flick. This is partly because I suck at pushing, so it's seldom a winning tactic for me.

But that said, it totally depends on the situation. Some people hardly ever attack, they are pure pushers. And when they do attack they miss more than half anyway. Against them I may push eight times, it's a good way to work on my pushes under match conditions.

Then there are nervous moments, or more rarely, exhausted moments, when you don't have the confidence or energy to make a high-percentage attack. Those situations are rare, but it's reasonable to try to win a push rally or bait your opponent into a weak or missed attack.

The key is if you are a looper, and if you are playing to have fun and improve, which should be 99% of the time, don't do push rallies. Just don't. Loop the 2nd or 3rd push and if you miss it's okay, life goes on and you get better at looping backspin. If this is a match that you absolutely must win, club championship or suchlike, continue a push rally only until you get a ball you can confidently loop 70%+ of the time. As long as you keep looking at every shot as a possible loop chance, and don't pre-commit in your mind to push back before you even see the ball, it's all good.
 
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