The rubber thickness can affect the blades stiffness?

eduardo1995filipe · Nov 19, 2018

Hi all,

I recently changed from 5 + 2 composite blades to 7 plywood blades.

I'm playing with a 99g 729-L5 Hao Shuai, it is 6mm thick. It has a wonderfull feel and it was super cheap(20$~21$) but at the same time it feels too heavy, as I'm pairing with a 729-08(2.1mm) on FH and Bluefire M2(1.8mm) on BH.

I like it because it's fast, I have more stability in my BH, easier to hit and block from BH, but I'm struggling a bit on FH loops, not a control question nor weight(As I think it's a pratice question), but I'm feeling the blade doesn't flex enough, at least comparing to the blades I've used(Viscaria, HL5, Treiber K, TBALC, etc...), because sometimes the ball goes flat, maybe I feel less margin for error.

So what I'm asking, If the 1.8mm Bluefire, as it's a thin rubber(also lighter and softer than my 729-08) can be making the blade don't flex enough on my fh? Should a thicker rubber, or harder help to solve this problem of the blade flex?

I'm not asking for a equipment change, I'll keep progressing on hardness on backhand as long as I improve and after that on thickness, but I found this interesting as it could be that a reason to make a blade feel more stiffer on the other side of the blade, so I would like to hear your opinions and experiences similar to this!

Thanks in advance!

Best Regards,
Eduardo

eduardo1995filipe · Nov 19, 2018

Nobody with the same experience?

Enviado do meu ALE-L21 através do Tapatalk

Lula · Nov 19, 2018

I Do not think that your backhand rubber change how your forehandrubber behaves or how the blade is. I think Maybe you get a flat hit since the china rubber is very hard and the ball Do not sink into the sponge and you get No arch? But on the other hand, the tacky topsheet migth give you the arch so you Do not get a flat hit. Hard and strange question haha. Im also interested in the reason why you play with china rubber?

hipnotic · Nov 19, 2018

7 ply blades are usually stiff and hard. Rubbers don't influence blade stiffness but they can change the way the blade feels, so a hard rubber + hard and stiff blade will make a hard feeling bat.

eduardo1995filipe · Nov 19, 2018

Lula said:
I Do not think that your backhand rubber change how your forehandrubber behaves or how the blade is. I think Maybe you get a flat hit since the china rubber is very hard and the ball Do not sink into the sponge and you get No arch? But on the other hand, the tacky topsheet migth give you the arch so you Do not get a flat hit. Hard and strange question haha. Im also interested in the reason why you play with china rubber?

Thank you for the response!

Well I can loop much better with my FH with 5 + 2 blades(HL5, Viscaria, Treiber K), the FH loop is stronger and with more arc. But I already struggled on loop with a Clipper that I've tried recently before the season start and I had to sell it. This blade that I have is thinner 6mm but it's still difficult to me. For one side, I think it's a tradeoff because I love the stability that 7 plywood gives me on BH, but on the other side, I loose some control in FH looping, because it don't flex so much as 5 + 2 composite blades.

But I never tried a composite blade with a thinner rubber on BH, so I can't confirm my theory, the first time that I use such a thin rubber is also the first time that I tried 7 plywood

So I thought with a thicker rubber in BH(2.0mm for example), as it's more heavier, could help the blade flex a little more

I tried chinese rubber in the end of the last year season and I loved the feel! A friend borrowed a H3 blue sponge and was so pleasant to play with it. I'm not saying that I play better or worse with it but, I love the feel and helps me on FH receive, counter attacks on the table, and has less margin of error on mid distance passive play, so it forces me to be more offensive also

eduardo1995filipe · Nov 19, 2018

hipnotic said:
7 ply blades are usually stiff and hard. Rubbers don't influence blade stiffness but they can change the way the blade feels, so a hard rubber + hard and stiff blade will make a hard feeling bat.

Thank you hipnotic!

But this is a "Clipperlike" blade with 6mm thick, but weights 99g, it has a solid feel. The blade feels soft but stiff, but as all people say Clipper plays good with chinese rubber on FH, I thought this could be a better option to me, because has the same ply constitution, and it's thinner(I didn't like the 7mm thickness of clipper), thought it had enough flex to my FH.

yogi_bear · Nov 19, 2018

there are 7 ply all wood blades taht have some flex namely - DHS PG7, Xiom Solo and the Tibhar Samsonov Force Pro Blue

eduardo1995filipe · Nov 19, 2018

yogi_bear said:
there are 7 ply all wood blades taht have some flex namely - DHS PG7, Xiom Solo and the Tibhar Samsonov Force Pro Blue

Thank you yogi_bear!

Well I've tried w506(from PROTT) from my practice partner, and it felt flexier than my 729-L5, despite being thicker! So PG7 should be "barely" equal and cheaper!

usualsuspect · Nov 19, 2018

Hi Eduardo, I don't think the problem is with your blade. Tacky Chinese rubbers have a smaller margin for error than Jap/Euro rubbers. Tacky rubbers, while requiring less effort to generate high amount of spin, generally require a higher level of precision on the hit/brush ratio of your swing, as well as the bat angle to generate the desired speed and spin on a loop. If you are not familiar with tacky rubbers, you should loop more with it and you will become more consistent.
If your loops don't have enough curve in their trajectories, then it's likely that your loops have too much hit component versus the brush component. Try to brush more when looping, it should improve the arch in your shots.
These are just my opinions anyways

eduardo1995filipe · Nov 19, 2018

usualsuspect said:
Hi Eduardo, I don't think the problem is with your blade. Tacky Chinese rubbers have a smaller margin for error than Jap/Euro rubbers. Tacky rubbers, while requiring less effort to generate high amount of spin, generally require a higher level of precision on the hit/brush ratio of your swing, as well as the bat angle to generate the desired speed and spin on a loop. If you are not familiar with tacky rubbers, you should loop more with it and you will become more consistent.
If your loops don't have enough curve in their trajectories, then it's likely that your loops have too much hit component versus the brush component. Try to brush more when looping, it should improve the arch in your shots.
These are just my opinions anyways

Hi usualsuspect, thank you for the nice advice!

I will try to brush more, but maybe the 5+2 is more "forgivable" in looping departement with tacky rubber, as I never felt this with Viscaria, Treiber K, and HL5, maybe the stroke should have more brush component than I do, as the blade isn't flexible as my previous blades

but well, it's a tradeoff!

Der_Echte · Nov 19, 2018

Thinner sponge is suited for players whose impact is more direct - the open face more forward swing. One can still produce spin with such an impact, but it is an entirely different kind of impact than the kind used by players with max sponged rubber.

In particular, tacky rubbers with harder sponge require not only a direct impact, but a really forceful direct impact to get any performance out of them.

I agree the rubbers are not killing your blade... one selects equipment based on how they wish to play - what frequent shots they do and select equipment suitable for that.

The questions you ought to ask yourself are...

What predominant kind of impact will you use? (This usually figures out the hardness/thickness of sponge and type of topsheet - dynamic/linear)

What kind of shots do you frequently attempt to rally and setup your points?

Do you wish to control the point with touch and placement, or do you want to do it with extreme spin or pace?

These questions will guide you into what is middle of zone for you.

Der_Echte · Nov 19, 2018

Wrong thread, oops.

eduardo1995filipe · Nov 19, 2018

Der_Echte said:
Thinner sponge is suited for players whose impact is more direct - the open face more forward swing. One can still produce spin with such an impact, but it is an entirely different kind of impact than the kind used by players with max sponged rubber.

In particular, tacky rubbers with harder sponge require not only a direct impact, but a really forceful direct impact to get any performance out of them.

I agree the rubbers are not killing your blade... one selects equipment based on how they wish to play - what frequent shots they do and select equipment suitable for that.

The questions you ought to ask yourself are...

What predominant kind of impact will you use? (This usually figures out the hardness/thickness of sponge and type of topsheet - dynamic/linear)

What kind of shots do you frequently attempt to rally and setup your points?

Do you wish to control the point with touch and placement, or do you want to do it with extreme spin or pace?

These questions will guide you into what is middle of zone for you.

Thank you Der_Etche!

So probably it's the stiffness of the blade that is making me struggle on my FH loop :/

Well, my BH impact is much more direct than My FH, even the BH loop it's direct. As I moved to allwood from composite and to thin BH rubber to get more control on BH and learn to use much more my BH on match play, without using it only to lob, which is the main thing that I did with backhand in the match play before started do improving it and changing the equipment to make this proccess easier. And it's been working

So I think that I had a big loss on my FH and a big gain on my BH. But my FH it's still predominant on match play, as my BH I use (for now) mainly to placement and touch shots and I can't abdicate that much loss of flex that me feel safe to make my FH loop.

But my change to 7 plywood was the best decision that I've made for now, it's fast and with a much better feel, so it's good to improve my technique before moving again to composite!

So I think the right decision, besides practicing

, it's to change to a little flexier 7 plywood blade, so I can feel safer while looping, but without loosing too much stiffness and stability on my BH. Maybe a PG7 like yogi_bear said, as I already tried a w506 from a practice partner!

I'll post a video when I work on this and I'll await for your advices!

Thank you all for the gold advices!

Der_Echte · Nov 20, 2018

Another thing to look at also is that if you are kind of player who wants to grab the ball and throw it, you need a blade/rubber combo that will NOT rebound the ball too quickly and get the topsheet to wrap around the ball.

If the blade has too quick of a rebound, there isn't much time to catch the ball into the topsheet and let the blade/sponge/ball deform-reform shoot it out... with a too quick rebounding blade, you generally get less spin on loops.

One can stretch this out a little with the impact and the right type of rubber/sponge, but it takes a lot of feel in the hand to adjust the impact with a stiff/quick rebounding blade.

If you are the kind of player who strikes the ball directly with a lot of force a little off center, then you can still get a lot of spin with your rocket top end. It depends on the kind of impact. I do not impact the ball on FH like this except for maybe two different shot situations, so a quick rebounding blade is definitely not for me.

We can in general say the rubber doesn't have a lot to do with the blade's flex...and the blade's flex has something to say about how long the ball stays.... but you can have a relative stiff blade with lower frequency vibration and still have dwell... but it will feel different. Dwell is all about slowing the ball down, holding it, and shooting it out.

Still, with a not-so-flexy blade... and a stroke that is generally a brush sponge loop...one can use a little softer sponged rubber with a thinner topsheet and still get enough dwell to do some spin. Your adjusted impact (looser grip) achieves this even on a hard stiff blade.

Impact dynamics are complicated, because there are many changing factors... the grip pressure being the wild card.

We should say with such and such incoming ball and impact given this rubber/sponge and blade you can get that... such a statement is more reliable than a too-general one... yet there are general statements that hold water if a certain variable is pretty much constant.

Der_Echte · Nov 20, 2018

One example of the post above is Der_Echte using a Yinhe T-8 and a medium firm rubber/sponge.

The T-8 is a very quick rebounding blade and with my kind of impact, ( I need a medium to medium soft sponge and a dynamic topsheet) I do not feel the ball on the blade very long and my opening loops have less spin and fly out long. Ireall cannot play my normal kind of game with such a setup, it isn't easy to do what I mostly do with that setup.

I can mitigate that some by using a much softer rubber with a topsheet that allows the ball to penetrate it easier. (Think a thinner topsheet and a softer max sponge) I must also slow down the power and loosen my grip a little more. With these adjustments, I can make an acceptable more consistent first opening loops even with the rebounding rocket that is the T-8....

... but WHY would I want to use such equipment? Sure, I can adjust, but it isn't so intuitive and the overall properties and now not to great for the rest of what I want to do.

It is better to get equipment middle of the road for the most frequent shot situations you use... this gives the maximum flexibility and easy of consistency for what you are doing.

Don't we all want that?

The problem with players and equipment, a lot of players just don't know, or they are too curious, or they want perfection... so many reasons, but ultimately, this is what drives the Equipment Junkie mentality. It isn't limited to offensive players... if you hang out at OOAK forum a little, you see the itch with defenders as well.

thom · Nov 20, 2018

Eduardo, don't have to change your setup. If the only problem you have is with the FH loop, use softer hand for that stroke you will get more spin. I have a similar setup and softer hands works for me

eduardo1995filipe · Nov 21, 2018

Der_Echte said:
Another thing to look at also is that if you are kind of player who wants to grab the ball and throw it, you need a blade/rubber combo that will NOT rebound the ball too quickly and get the topsheet to wrap around the ball.

If the blade has too quick of a rebound, there isn't much time to catch the ball into the topsheet and let the blade/sponge/ball deform-reform shoot it out... with a too quick rebounding blade, you generally get less spin on loops.

One can stretch this out a little with the impact and the right type of rubber/sponge, but it takes a lot of feel in the hand to adjust the impact with a stiff/quick rebounding blade.

If you are the kind of player who strikes the ball directly with a lot of force a little off center, then you can still get a lot of spin with your rocket top end. It depends on the kind of impact. I do not impact the ball on FH like this except for maybe two different shot situations, so a quick rebounding blade is definitely not for me.

We can in general say the rubber doesn't have a lot to do with the blade's flex...and the blade's flex has something to say about how long the ball stays.... but you can have a relative stiff blade with lower frequency vibration and still have dwell... but it will feel different. Dwell is all about slowing the ball down, holding it, and shooting it out.

Still, with a not-so-flexy blade... and a stroke that is generally a brush sponge loop...one can use a little softer sponged rubber with a thinner topsheet and still get enough dwell to do some spin. Your adjusted impact (looser grip) achieves this even on a hard stiff blade.

Impact dynamics are complicated, because there are many changing factors... the grip pressure being the wild card.

We should say with such and such incoming ball and impact given this rubber/sponge and blade you can get that... such a statement is more reliable than a too-general one... yet there are general statements that hold water if a certain variable is pretty much constant.

Der_Echte said:
One example of the post above is Der_Echte using a Yinhe T-8 and a medium firm rubber/sponge.

The T-8 is a very quick rebounding blade and with my kind of impact, ( I need a medium to medium soft sponge and a dynamic topsheet) I do not feel the ball on the blade very long and my opening loops have less spin and fly out long. Ireall cannot play my normal kind of game with such a setup, it isn't easy to do what I mostly do with that setup.

I can mitigate that some by using a much softer rubber with a topsheet that allows the ball to penetrate it easier. (Think a thinner topsheet and a softer max sponge) I must also slow down the power and loosen my grip a little more. With these adjustments, I can make an acceptable more consistent first opening loops even with the rebounding rocket that is the T-8....

... but WHY would I want to use such equipment? Sure, I can adjust, but it isn't so intuitive and the overall properties and now not to great for the rest of what I want to do.

It is better to get equipment middle of the road for the most frequent shot situations you use... this gives the maximum flexibility and easy of consistency for what you are doing.

Don't we all want that?

The problem with players and equipment, a lot of players just don't know, or they are too curious, or they want perfection... so many reasons, but ultimately, this is what drives the Equipment Junkie mentality. It isn't limited to offensive players... if you hang out at OOAK forum a little, you see the itch with defenders as well.

Yeah! I get it Der_Etche, thank you for this advices!

I feel I need some dwell, need the ball stay more on the blade, at least more than the blade that I'm using now... Because the enormous flexibility that made me struggle in BH blocking in match play moved me away from Treiber K, now turned in a enormous stiffness that gaves me safety on block and staying closer to the table but, struggles on looping(at least with the tecqnique that I'm used to).

So I think the best is a midterm, a 7 ply blade, that's a bit flexier than mine, in this case the one that I have in mind, PG7, as it's cheap and have good reviews!

I prefer hard sponges and slower and flexier blade(flexier on FH, not so flexy on BH), and I'm good with my current rubbers

I feel my FH rubber(729-08 47º(38º~39º in DHS scale)) has a bit soft feel comparing the first chinese rubber that I've tried(H3 Neo BS Prov. 40º) as not only the H3 Neo has a harder topsheet, but the sponge is also harder, so I'll increase my 729-08 to 49º(40º~41º in DHS scale).

It's as you say, why we would adjust if it's not the setup that isn't appropriate for the most kind of shots that we do!

Yeah time ago I've Searched for defensive blades and setups just for fun and found some thing about it on OOAK!

Fortunately my EJ virus was gone a long ago... But in the end of the season I tested chinese rubbers and found it very pleasant to play, easier to receive, easier to loop and not bouncy! But I also thought about improving my backhand and I ended my rubbers search in season start, but the blade's search is over after the PG7!!

Thank you once again Der_Etche!

eduardo1995filipe · Nov 21, 2018

thom said:
Eduardo, don't have to change your setup. If the only problem you have is with the FH loop, use softer hand for that stroke you will get more spin. I have a similar setup and softer hands works for me

Thanks for the advice Tom!

Yeah I totally agree that with a loose stroke it's easier to do that kind of balls! But in other way, my blade weights 99g, and it's a bit heavy to do that and recover in time to recover for the next stroke :/

Der_Echte · Nov 21, 2018

One thing you or anyone can do to get better right away in the blocking department is to get the bat to the point right off the bounce (like only a few cm away) and hold it loose for base block. More aggressive? Go through a little? Faster? Grip it firmer, allow ball to come up a little more, not much.

eduardo1995filipe · Nov 21, 2018

Der_Echte said:
One thing you or anyone can do to get better right away in the blocking department is to get the bat to the point right off the bounce (like only a few cm away) and hold it loose for base block. More aggressive? Go through a little? Faster? Grip it firmer, allow ball to come up a little more, not much.

Yeah I hold the bat loose and I can do a solid block, but only in practice. When in match play, It's the opposite, It's really difficult to do a block when out of position, maybe also my position in matchplay it's different, and doesn't let me make a safe block/drive with a too flexy blade!

I'll take that in account in my next practices, thank you Der_Etche!

The rubber thickness can affect the blades stiffness?

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