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BryanY
01-06-2019, 11:29 PM
So, there are quite a few different ESN rubbers with extra thick “Ultramax” sponges combined with thin top sheets. I’ve tried some of them, but I’m wondering from you guys if there is really a significant difference between brands.

In this post I’d specifically like to compare rubber in the 47-48 degree (ESN) hardness range for use as a forehand rubber. Particularly for looping with an OFF rated 5 ply blade. (Let’s say Infinity VPS or Ma Lin Extra Offensive). (And standard close to mid distance looping).

Does the amount of spin, speed, control, linearity, and ease of use stand out with any of the rubbers? (I’ve heard that pretty much all of them have good spin, but just a little less than T05). (I’ve also heard that Rhyzer 48 is the fastest of the bunch).

Anyway, I’m looking forward to your opinions on what attributes stand out with the following sheets of rubber. (I also may be forgetting a few Ultramax rubbers)

- Andro Rasanter R47
- Donic Bluestorm Z1 (is it identical to R47?)
- JOOLA Rhyzer 48
- Tibhar Aurus Prime
- Xiom Omega VII Pro
- Other??



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trumpet_guy
01-07-2019, 04:13 AM
Another thin-topsheet rubber to consider:
Gewo Nexxus EL Pro 48/43/38

I don’t have enough experience with other tension rubbers to compare yet. The Gewo rubbers play very well, but I don’t think they would be equated with Tenergy.

—Tim

langel
01-07-2019, 06:31 AM
I would say that Bluestorn Z1 is faster than Rhyzer 48, and Xiom O7Pro is faster and more spinny. Don't know about the others listed.
For me Xiom O7Asia has the same speed as O7Pro, but with more spin and lower arc, which makes it feel faster. Omega 7 Tour should be even more spinny, still waiting for it.
Of course it depends on blade too. My personal feeling is that 5 ply allwood blades are not the best for these rubbers, except for the mid distance looping. These rubbers with harder and thicker sponge and thinner and softer top sheet produce spin and speed in different way depending on the strength and angle of impact and are very sensitive to it. Composit OFF/OFF- blades with good sweetspot, some flex and softer outerply would be better.
These are my personal feelings. Differents styles may feel different.

trumpet_guy
01-07-2019, 07:29 AM
A good thread on this very topic over at myTT:
http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=83226&KW=Thin+top+sheet&PN=1&title=on-the-newgen-4748-deg-rubbers

langel
01-07-2019, 08:10 AM
A good thread on this very topic over at myTT:
http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=83226&KW=Thin+top+sheet&PN=1&title=on-the-newgen-4748-deg-rubbers

Yes, and it has to be read carefully, there are some members there who changed their mind with time.
I find Slevins' exeperience very close to mine, regarding suitability of blades too.

Airoc
01-07-2019, 08:54 AM
- Xiom Omega VII Pro


Does not belong to the UltraMax range. Although also relatively new, it is a further development of a different concept.

From those I have tried - and I think I only miss the bluefire experience - here´s what I think.

Aurus Prime: the most compact, "tenergy-like" feeling of them all, the stiffest topsheet. Mind I only ever played with a pre-production factory sample (close enough to release, but still things may have been changed afterwards)

Rhyzer 48: the softest and bounciest of the lot, not necessarily the fastest though. I think the maximum speed of all these rubbers is pretty much identical, but Rhyzer has the biggest catapult and therefore appears "faster"

Rasanter R47/V47: Between the two, R47 feels a little softer and less direct. Rotation/Velocity orientation well done. R47 is the well balanced middle of all these rubbers. As a side note, the R37 version shows the limits of the concept: soft ultramax rubber is really something for sound freaks only.

GEWO Nexxus EL: Overall feeling a bit softer than Rasanter, but not as soft as Rhyzer.

I really think all these rubbers offer more than enough spin and speed, and you can choose between them according to your preferred overall hardness. I don´t see much of a difference elsewhere. Of course I have only played with one sheet (except several Rasanter), so production variables may have evened out things or in other cases would make differences more visible.

BryanY
01-07-2019, 03:38 PM
Yes, and it has to be read carefully, there are some members there who changed their mind with time.
I find Slevins' exeperience very close to mine, regarding suitability of blades too.

Exactly. This was a very useful post, but so many different conflicting opinions. Also, I don’t understand why people are using 2.0 thickness when these rubbers are clearly designed for max.




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Airoc
01-08-2019, 01:26 PM
Exactly. This was a very useful post, but so many different conflicting opinions. Also, I don’t understand why people are using 2.0 thickness when these rubbers are clearly designed for max.

Yep. I thought the new concept would work in a combination of thinner topsheet AND thicker sponge. Choose 2.0 or less and take half the effect away, but it seems the companies see that differently.

But I sometimes wonder anyway, why companies release the most aggressive and explosive of rubbers, then offer them down to 1.7
Who buys a 50 degree performance monster, but then gets careful about sponge thickness?

Chinese rubbers, if of the offensive variety, are often available in 2.0 and 2.2 - if you prefer a less offensive game, choose a different rubber. Seems consequential to me.

langel
01-08-2019, 02:56 PM
I agree with this just partially.
Its true that the effects of this concept are more and more sensible with thicker and harder sponges, but it does not mean that the concept is not working good as intended with a thiner sponge too.
I personally feel very happy with O7Asia 2.0 mm 52.5 degrees. Thats my style and distance and feel. And with 2.0 mm the benefits of the softer topsheet on harder sponge are very sensible, and I care more about the spin in witch the benefits are more sensible, while the extra power for me is just enough. 2.2mm somewhat hinders the excellent feel I have with the blade, which I don't want to lose, and its extra-extra power is something I don't need.

Airoc
01-09-2019, 10:34 AM
I personally feel very happy with O7Asia 2.0 mm 52.5 degrees.

Yes, but again Omega 7 rubbers are NOT from the same recipe as Rasanter, Bluestorm, Nexxus, Rhyzer and Aurus Prime.

The point was if you make the topsheet delibaretly thinner to enable even thicker (2.3 mm) sponge (ULTRAmax, maxx, max+, whatever they call it) then this would be the ideal combination in theory. The same thin topsheet on a 2.0 sponge would not be the real deal.

If you strip a sportscar AND boost the engine for maximum performance, would you buy a version without the engine boost? It would surely be kinda cool, but not the full monty.

I have played rubbers from other generations and like you I have felt that sometimes 2.0 or even 1.9 works better than max, but with this new concept I would have to try ...

yogi_bear
01-09-2019, 12:02 PM
Airoc, why do you think the O7Pnis not an Ultramx rubber?

Hustler37
01-09-2019, 12:44 PM
I use xiom omega 7 Europe in Max Sponge black. I really like it. It is fast when I need to its fast. It can spin like heaven. Wonderfull in blocking and beautifull when Im looping back on opponents attack.
Have played with Razanter R47.
In my opinion Omega 7 Europe is far better in every aspect

Airoc
01-09-2019, 02:13 PM
Airoc, why do you think the O7Pnis not an Ultramx rubber?

Omega 7 rubbers are significantly lighter than any of the UltraMax rubbers, this wouldn´t be possible if they were from the same concept. First reviews mentioned this as a revolution and specifically mentioned that the Omegas were NOT from the UltraMax mould and that it was yet another good concept to produce a high quality offensive rubber.

Due to the nature of these first test impressions (specialized blog supplied with pre-production samples) you´d think that the friendly company providing the samples would have last word, not necessarily about playing characteristics, but basics.

Besides that, every other company has used the UltraMax concept as a sales argument mentioned in the product descriptions AND with a special name for the sponges, i.e. UltraMax (andro), maxx (Gewo), max+ (donic), Powermax (Joola), and I am pretty sure XIOM would´ve at least mentioned and named the thicker sponge.

trumpet_guy
01-10-2019, 01:27 AM
I suspect that the thin top sheet is not only to allow thicker sponge, but also to allow the soft thin top sheet to wrap around the plastic ball just a bit. If my theory is true, then thinner sponges still make a lot of sense, especially since they allow for lighter weight. But this is just my guess.

yogi_bear
01-10-2019, 01:31 AM
I think you miss the fact that each company has their. Own specifications and even if they are in the same generation, there are still differences which does not exclude omega vii rubbers as ultramax rubbers. Not using the name max on your product is not a valid evidence. The sponge of the omega vii rubber are plus 1, minus 1 from 2.3mm and yes they are thin topsheet, thciksponge class rubbers. Does the quality of Omega vii rubbers stand out yes of course and they are even spinnier than other same class. Esn rubbers but it does not mean it is not an ultramax rubber. Also, about the weight, that is too general since there are several hardness variants of the rubbers.


Omega 7 rubbers are significantly lighter than any of the UltraMax rubbers, this wouldn´t be possible if they were from the same concept. First reviews mentioned this as a revolution and specifically mentioned that the Omegas were NOT from the UltraMax mould and that it was yet another good concept to produce a high quality offensive rubber.

Due to the nature of these first test impressions (specialized blog supplied with pre-production samples) you´d think that the friendly company providing the samples would have last word, not necessarily about playing characteristics, but basics.

Besides that, every other company has used the UltraMax concept as a sales argument mentioned in the product descriptions AND with a special name for the sponges, i.e. UltraMax (andro), maxx (Gewo), max+ (donic), Powermax (Joola), and I am pretty sure XIOM would´ve at least mentioned and named the thicker sponge.

hills4ever
01-10-2019, 05:06 AM
I am actually surprised by your comments.
IT feels you work in some kind of table tennis based companies.

Facts Facts,
Airoc is right, each companies have a different formula. This is how we keep apart from other brands.
For example our carbo sponge, some people might think this is just a color.
But if you compare chemical attributes between typical sponges and our sponge, you can see a difference.
Our rubber Omega VII is different from other thin sheet, max sponge rubber.

We are probably the first company who launched dynamic friction technology to the market.
Introduced as Omega V to suit new plastic balls.
The rubber is super, to be frank. But was a bit heavy for some people, so we've managed to develop this rubber with best suitable for the plastic ball while maintaining light weight. (difficult)
I don't think any other company has this formula. :)

From Omega VII Pro technology we expanded our rubber to Omega VII Tour, Asia, and Euro.
Currently Hugo is using Omega VII Tour.
Tour is heavier, but powerful.

Jeong Young sik (WR#21), Hugo (WR#6) are few who are using them. :)



Omega 7 rubbers are significantly lighter than any of the UltraMax rubbers, this wouldn´t be possible if they were from the same concept. First reviews mentioned this as a revolution and specifically mentioned that the Omegas were NOT from the UltraMax mould and that it was yet another good concept to produce a high quality offensive rubber.

Due to the nature of these first test impressions (specialized blog supplied with pre-production samples) you´d think that the friendly company providing the samples would have last word, not necessarily about playing characteristics, but basics.

Besides that, every other company has used the UltraMax concept as a sales argument mentioned in the product descriptions AND with a special name for the sponges, i.e. UltraMax (andro), maxx (Gewo), max+ (donic), Powermax (Joola), and I am pretty sure XIOM would´ve at least mentioned and named the thicker sponge.

Airoc
01-10-2019, 07:39 AM
Introduced as Omega V to suit new plastic balls.
The rubber is super, to be frank. But was a bit heavy for some people, so we've managed to develop this rubber with best suitable for the plastic ball while maintaining light weight. (difficult)
I don't think any other company has this formula. :)

So in other words, while other companies jumped the UltraMax bandwagon, you took Omega V and developed it further to Omega VII, with a very welcome emphasis on weight.

zeio
01-10-2019, 11:35 AM
Let's put that claim to the test, shall we?

All images from Guoqiuhui, thickest available for the respective models
http://www.guoqiuhui.net/Home/Goods/goods/cat_id/14

Xiom Omega VII Pro
http://www.guoqiuhui.net/Upload/goods/2017-11-19/5a113c89aabcf.jpg

Omega V Pro
http://www.guoqiuhui.net/images/201402/goods_img/2402_P_1391708593826.JPG

Omega VII Asia
http://www.guoqiuhui.net/Upload/goods/2018-07-04/5b3cc0e861464.JPG

Omega V Asia
http://www.guoqiuhui.net/images/201602/goods_img/2697_P_1456732103828.JPG

Donic Bluestorm Z1
http://www.guoqiuhui.net/images/201708/goods_img/2858_P_1503987609560.jpg

Acuda P1
http://www.guoqiuhui.net/images/201602/goods_img/2689_P_1456730713384.JPG

Bluefire M1
http://www.guoqiuhui.net/images/201207/goods_img/2302_P_1343539956690.JPG

Andro Rasanter R50
http://www.guoqiuhui.net/images/201706/goods_img/2830_P_1496982662978.jpg

Rasant Powergrip
http://www.guoqiuhui.net/images/201410/goods_img/2605_P_1414378366269.JPG

My verdict?
https://media.giphy.com/media/zskADqq8nW0bS/giphy.gif

FruitLoop
01-10-2019, 12:42 PM
Which claim is your response with regards to? The sponge is clearly thicker and the texture different.

zeio
01-10-2019, 12:55 PM
While it should be obvious, I'll leave that to your interpretation.

langel
01-10-2019, 02:48 PM
So what do the pictures show - Even at mid thickness O7Pro and A are more UltraMax than the claimed to be "Really UltraMax Indeed".

Bam!

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/cache.php?img=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia1.tenor.com%2Fimages%2Fdb731819973fecb29d0ef495ae4b44ef%2Ftenor.gif

FruitLoop
01-10-2019, 03:10 PM
While it should be obvious, I'll leave that to your interpretation.

I'm sorry it's not obvious at all and my interpretation therefore has to be that you are insane.

Ioiettino
01-10-2019, 03:42 PM
I'm sorry it's not obvious at all and my interpretation therefore has to be that you are insane.

“But it's the truth even if it didn't happen.”

zeio
01-10-2019, 04:30 PM
O7P, O5P
https://i.imgur.com/JpTERv3.jpg
O7A, O5A
https://i.imgur.com/B60tsyY.jpg
BSZ1, ABP1, BFM1
https://i.imgur.com/FTH1x2U.jpg
BSZ1, BFM1
https://i.imgur.com/ZqQnfQp.jpg
RR50, RPG
https://i.imgur.com/Gde9kxG.jpg
O7P, O7A, BSZ1, RR50
https://i.imgur.com/Js4BzsH.jpg
O5P, O5A, BFM1, RPG
https://i.imgur.com/s5YJ3V3.jpg

StuartMarquis
01-11-2019, 07:57 AM
Not really answering the original question, but I've tried a couple of different max plus rubbers, all in a relatively hard sponge (circa 47/48 degrees) and I've found that within a week or two of playing they really start to feel quite soft. It's like you have to go a few degrees harder with a max plus rubber to get the same hardness as a standard max rubber.

langel
01-11-2019, 08:10 AM
O7Asia is 52.5 degree and you may find it better for your preferences.