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Ilcane1
01-07-2019, 03:15 PM
Hi all, i recorded one video of my Fh topspin vs. a back-sidespin with my robot. Could you give me some help? I'm detecting now how to do the weight transfer. I was a little tired in the video (30 mins of robot played before). 1 video is in slow motion. Thank to everybody will give me some hints! And i'm sorry for my bad english... :)

Ilcane1
01-07-2019, 03:18 PM
I'm sorry, how can i load my videos??

Loopadoop
01-07-2019, 03:21 PM
Free detailed step by step coaching videos available at

YouTube yangyang TT

Lula
01-07-2019, 03:23 PM
Maybe there are several ways to upload a video, but one way is to upload the video to youtube then post a link here.

Ilcane1
01-07-2019, 03:26 PM
Grazie, mi richiedeva 5 post.

Ilcane1
01-07-2019, 03:26 PM
Here the links:

Ilcane1
01-07-2019, 03:28 PM
https://youtu.be/pEx2UsuUxms

https://youtu.be/88PeD8KeW7s

Takkyu_wa_inochi
01-07-2019, 04:24 PM
take my comment with a grain of salt, i'm not very good at video analysis, and there is only 1 angle, i might be fooled by it as well

Here is what i have to say

1) the most striking thing, is that more than once, you totally miss the ball, you're just hitting air ! you have a sync / timing problem

2) the overall impression is that you are putting way too much effort, you need to be much more relaxed

3) not sure, but it looks like you might be a bit too close from the table, and hitting the ball too late / too close from your body. It doesn't help that the robot is setup so that the bounce is rather high, so it makes it a bit difficult to do a drive at the top of the bounce, too close from the table. The best hitting zone is in front of you, so it means you should hit those balls before the top of the bounce [and adjust the motion] or go back by 10-20 ?

4) swing is way too vertical, i think it should be more horizontal with a more closed angle. When you do you follow through, we can't even see your bat on screen any more !!!

5) you are using the rotation of your body and putting your weight on the right leg at the beginning of the motion, thats good, but i see you then putting your left feet back as you're doing the swing. nope, that left foot shouldn't move and your weight should shift from that right foot to that left foot. What i do to make sure the transfer is done, as i finish my swing, only the toes of my right foot are touching the floor, the heel is up. No way i could not go forward like this, if i tried to do something which looks like you, i would be falling.

like others said, there are plenty of tutorial videos on the net, just look on youtube or past threads

zeio
01-07-2019, 04:46 PM
Set the robot to feed without side spin. Right now, the balls are swerving away from your FH. While reaching to your right to make the shot, it's robbing you of any weight transfer. Feed yourself no-spin/light topspin when starting out.

Ilcane1
01-07-2019, 05:40 PM
Thank you for your comments..
Totakkyu:
1) yes i know, but i was very tired, i palyed 30-45min before these videos.
2)i felt relaxed during the exercise, but i put much power to keep up the ball againsr backspin.
3) i will make a new video soon with another POV
4) i tried to do a high arc with a lot of spin so i kept my blade open. Sometimes i change angle to reach the corner.
5) during the swing, when i transfer my weight, should i have to raise up my body, or its only hips rotation? because i'm finding the right and comfortble body position.

To zeio:
Thank you too, later i will try with backspin only and nospin.

Lightzy
01-07-2019, 05:49 PM
Basically you're trying too hard. Try a lot less. No hip, no nothing. You say weight transfer but you're not transfering weight, you're just jumping around with no control.
Stop all of that.

Now,

Imagine how the racket should be moving through the air if nobody is holding it. It's a nice clean, smooth diagonal line, right?

Now hold the racket and make it do that motion. move it through that clean, smooth, slow line. No need for hip, no wrist, no whatever. Just let the racket move through the air in a clean smooth line the way you imagine it moving through the air for a topspin.

Do it real slow.
Don't move your legs, your body, nothing. Just help the racket go through that smooth line.

Not turn on the robot and do the same.

Hit the ball real slow.

Doesn't matter if it doesn't even cross the net.

Keep doing that.

Then you'll improve fast :)





Problems I detect (for which I propose the above exercise):
1) Your left foot is sliding backwards. You're not doing 'weight transfer' at all. Don't move the feet.
2) You're extending your upper body. No need for that.
3) You're hitting upwards. Topspin is a diagonal arc. This is very important. The point of it is that wherever in the arc you hit the ball, it will be more or less a consistent topspin. If the line the racket travels is not clean and smooth, you'll never have a good shot.
4) Your upper body is rotating a lot. No need.
5) Your shoulder is lifted up. No need

RidTheKid
01-07-2019, 08:08 PM
Change shoes. Those soft Air Max doesn't offer any stability, on the contrary they destroy the balance. Get a pair with thin hard soles so that you feel the contact with the floor.

yogi_bear
01-07-2019, 08:15 PM
Too much sliding of the feet. Is your floor slippery?

jammmail
01-07-2019, 09:19 PM
First up fair play for posting video of yourself, Im sure you will get some good tips!
I’m no expert and coming back to the sport after a break of 10 years so am getting used to the the new balls, rule changes and equipment so just an opinion. But your swing is very big and finishing much to high. Everything needs to be more compact with a shorter swing, there’s just to much going on. Try finishing lower pointing towards not way up pointing to the sky. A more compact swing will give you more time to react to returns.
Go on ittf tv and watch some videos of the pros and there swings, how they move and react. Not saying you should play like them but to give you an idea of the right technique.

FruitLoop
01-08-2019, 12:34 AM
You are swinging up too much and not enough forward. Your backswing is ok, you are clearly using your hips going back, but you don't spin forward enough and end up using your arm quite vertically afterwards with little rotation of the hips or body. This is where all the speed comes from.

Swing back like you are doing (but not so low with the bat, keep it higher), then rotate forwards. Imagine you are throwing a discuss.

Practice shadow swings without the bat, practice rotating so fast in the forward swing you feel the blood flow to your fingers. Then practice with a bat, concentrating on that same rotation and feeling. Then try again at the table.

Also relax your grip, you should hold the racket only tight enough so it doesn't fly out of your hand and no more.

I wouldn't think about weight transfer for now. There is none because you aren't rotating. Think about rotation instead and the weight transfer will happen.

Ilcane1
01-08-2019, 08:52 AM
Thank you all. My problem is vs backspin balls. I explain: when i play against no spin or topspin balls i can keep my shots on the table. When i receive back a push with a heavy spin my balls go into the net often. So i'm triing to go lower but i find problems with body rotation. I think i can brush the ball (maybe too much) and sometimes i miss the ball.
I can't understand one thing: if i start lower to hook the ball and to give a high trajectory to it, how can i do the same stretch that i do against topspins? Must my arm follow the bat angle? I cant find the right compromise between bat angle and arm angle...
Other 2 videos, 1 is a match vs one of my club partner.
Thank you again.

Ps: maybe the floor is a little slippery
https://youtu.be/FlHWq2VXbwo

https://youtu.be/dyANbzD9BfE

Ilcane1
01-08-2019, 10:36 AM
I forgot to say my setup:
H301 + Fh battle2 + bh mx-s

yogi_bear
01-08-2019, 11:23 AM
Against underspin ball, contact the ball starting at 3 o clock then brush up. In more advanced cases l, it varies depending on the amount of spin. Against to0spin balls, contact 1 or 2 o clock but a little more on the side top part of the ball then brush forward.

thekleifheit13
01-08-2019, 12:03 PM
Thank you all. My problem is vs backspin balls. I explain: when i play against no spin or topspin balls i can keep my shots on the table. When i receive back a push with a heavy spin my balls go into the net often. So i'm triing to go lower but i find problems with body rotation. I think i can brush the ball (maybe too much) and sometimes i miss the ball.
I can't understand one thing: if i start lower to hook the ball and to give a high trajectory to it, how can i do the same stretch that i do against topspins? Must my arm follow the bat angle? I cant find the right compromise between bat angle and arm angle...
Other 2 videos, 1 is a match vs one of my club partner.
Thank you again.

Ps: maybe the floor is a little slippery
https://youtu.be/FlHWq2VXbwo

https://youtu.be/dyANbzD9BfE

Hey man, good on you for posting a video! I make a lot of the same mistakes you do and am lucky enough to have a few good coaches helping me fix them. I'll give a quick description of what they have me work on, maybe you can use some of the points to help improve!

For topspin and no spin, my coach says to rotate your body and bring the racket back at nearly the same height as the incoming ball (tiny bit below the ball). Then as you rotate your hips/shoulders back to square and contact the ball you spin over the top of it with your wrist and forearm, finishing around the height of your face. The wrist and forearm give you spin, while the body rotation gives you power. Think about using the sponge but not hitting through to the blade.

For underspin, you make the same body rotation to bring the racket back, but you drop the racket to behind your right knee. You rotate your body back to square while snapping your wrist and forearm up. This swing should finish near forehead level but with your FH rubber still facing your target (because you snap your wrist up, not over). The racket should still finish in front of your body.

I generally find that swinging forward vs underspin is really difficult to learn and get used to, because you're afraid it will go into the net. Yes, some will go into the net (especially when you're learning), but eventually you learn to control it well enough that netting the ball is a rare occurrence.

Ilcane1
01-08-2019, 12:16 PM
Thank you guys.. but when i try to lower the blade (vs backspin balls) how can i rech the 3 (thinkingthe ball as a clock)? My blade is more or less 45° so the point of contact is around 1/2. So i open the plate triing to rotate to give more power and i cant find the righ movements.

Ilcane1
01-08-2019, 12:25 PM
Thank you guys.. but when i try to lower the blade (vs backspin balls) how can i rech the 3 (thinkingthe ball as a clock)? My blade is more or less 45° so the point of contact is around 1/2. So i open the plate triing to rotate to give more power and i cant find the righ movements.

thekleifheit13
01-08-2019, 12:50 PM
Thank you guys.. but when i try to lower the blade (vs backspin balls) how can i rech the 3 (thinkingthe ball as a clock)? My blade is more or less 45° so the point of contact is around 1/2. So i open the plate triing to rotate to give more power and i cant find the righ movements.

When you make a change like what we're talking about it will feel weird at first and you'll miss often. But if you commit yourself and keep practicing that motion you'll learn what your body and wrist need to do to make a good shot.

Your blade angle of 45° is why you have to swing so vertically and not forward. It's also why you're missing the ball. I only know this because I've always done the same thing and it's hard to change (but very rewarding when you have an understanding and your loop works well) :)

Lula
01-08-2019, 12:56 PM
I think you are doing okay, i think the motion is rather okay and you are getting some balls over the net. I think you need to try to recognize when the balls are going over the net and try to do the same. When you are missing something have gone wrong.

I disagree with some above that you need to swing more forward and work more with the hips and body.
I think it is correct that you need to bend the legs, but rotating the hips is more for a harder more powerful shot and i think you should start by making a soft spin opening.

Like i said it is important to bend your legs, because then you will automatically come more under the ball and it will be easier to lift up.

So bend the legs, relax the arm so it will just hang by your leg so it becomes more extended, wait for the ball and accelerate with the forearm, so you get an explosive motion and try to end with the racket so you have a 90 degree angle between your arm and forearm. The motion should be upward, with an open angle of the racket against backspin. I often joke with my students that the shot against backspin is almost like you stand relaxed at the bus stop then see your crush and you put up the arm and wave to say hi. It is almost the same motion. You may need to close the angle and swing more forward if you want a harder shot but this is not necessary at the moment.

If you loop out, then it was not as much backspin as you thought and you need to swing more forward.
If you loop in the net, it is either that you start with the racket to hight, swing to much forward or do the just mention things correct but your acceleration is to slow.

When you put the balls in the net i think it is mostly because you start with the racket to high, it is almost like try to smash or block a backspin ball, the spin will make the ball go down. And also that you do not accelerate with the forearm, you are almost just lifting the elbow at the moment. Spin comes from the forearm, so without acceleration there you will not get much spin. I also think you could try to do a little more explosive motion, with more acceleration. You may try to do a little shorter stroke since i think it is harder to get an explosive motion with a longer stroke. A explosive motion is not as necessary at topspin since it is already spin in the ball.

I think that technique is very subjective, and the most important thing against backspin is that you can open and get the ball over the net. I think the most important thing regardless of how the motion looks like is that you need to accelerate with the forearm and have an explosive motion against backspin. Once again i think it is very important that you try to feel for yourself when the ball is going in, try to notice what you are doing and try to do the same again. And when you miss try to understand what have just happened, what went wrong. I also think that it may be easier for you to do a correct stroke if you watch good players live or on video and see how they are doing it and try to copy.

Good luck!

Ilcane1
01-08-2019, 01:15 PM
So if i understand well... the bat angle is a little bit open vs. Backspin balls, and my arm follow a higher trejectory. I dont have to change the bat angle during this.
I need also to bend my knees to start lower. Then must i keep the same height or stand a little? Because i find difficult to rotate my waist when my knees are bended. Thank you.

Lula
01-08-2019, 01:28 PM
So if i understand well... the bat angle is a little bit open vs. Backspin balls, and my arm follow a higher trejectory. I dont have to change the bat angle during this.
I need also to bend my knees to start lower. Then must i keep the same height or stand a little? Because i find difficult to rotate my waist when my knees are bended. Thank you.

I think some players, or atleast very good players have a more closed angle against backspin because that forces them to accelerate really well or they can have that closed angle because they accelerate really well. I think that if you are just going to loop the ball in soft with spin, it is good enough to have an open racket angle. You can try this for yourself, if you have a closed racket angle the ball will go down almost hitting your side of the table. But i think you already have a pretty good racket angle.

You do not have to bend your legs, but i think it will be much much easier. I think some people tend to stand a little to be able to lift the ball over the net. But it would be difficult to move at the next ball if you are a standing straight.

Why it is difficult to rotate the waist when your knees are bend? Do not focus so much on the waist.

I think you maybe missed my point and focus to much on the wrong things. What you mention is important but i think it is most important for you to relax your arm, lower it, do not just lift the elbow but accelerate with the forearm and try to have an pretty explosive motion.

Try to work on it for a day or two and post a video again! But like i said before technque is pretty subjective and if you are able to lift the ball against backspin and hit the table, then you are doing something correct. The technique do not always need to be perfect, if you get the result you want it is already pretty good.

Ilcane1
01-08-2019, 01:39 PM
Ok, i will focus on my forearm and i will block my waist for now.
And what about my general gameplay, what do you think about it?

Ilcane1
01-08-2019, 01:41 PM
About the forearm.. my shoulder should be relaxed or do i have to actuate it? I mean.. must i bend only the elbow?

TableTennisNerd
01-08-2019, 01:42 PM
You need more rotation from you waist and thighs rather than just dipping down on one thigh and then straightening up.

Lula
01-08-2019, 02:03 PM
Ok, i will focus on my forearm and i will block my waist for now.
And what about my general gameplay, what do you think about it?

have you posted videos of your general gameplay?


About the forearm.. my shoulder should be relaxed or do i have to actuate it? I mean.. must i bend only the elbow?

Try to relax and work with the forearm. I do not think you should move the shoulder so much. I find it hard to just move the shoulder.


You need more rotation from you waist and thighs rather than just dipping down on one thigh and then straightening up.

I do not think that is necessary if he just want to loop the ball in safe with a soft topspin against backspin. I think it is much more important to focus on the forearm. I do not think he need to use the waist so much against backpin, maybe if he want to loop hard which i think is overkill at the moment. But i do agree that the waist is important for the power if he wants to kill the ball, when he steps out and have the time and room to play a more powerful shot with the body.

But i think they are rotating much less nowdays with the waist and especially with the legs/knees since we do not have the time to stand forehandfeet as much as before so it is much more difficult to rotate and have the time for it when we play so fast and as much backhand and countertopspin as we do today.

But then again, regarding the waist on backspin and topsin. Technique is very subjective i think, and alot of players play very different so it are not so many wrong and rights. So it is okay to have different opinions. In my opinion Schlagers technique were not very nice and he may be the last european world champion? so it worked pretty good for him.

Ilcane1
01-08-2019, 02:19 PM
Yes i uploaded 4 min of one match.. here the link again.
At the end i think i placed some good topspins vs. Blocks.

https://youtu.be/dyANbzD9BfE

RidTheKid
01-08-2019, 02:45 PM
I think you should find a coach, it's very difficult to instruct and advise just with words.

Lula
01-08-2019, 03:08 PM
Yes i uploaded 4 min of one match.. here the link again.
At the end i think i placed some good topspins vs. Blocks.

https://youtu.be/dyANbzD9BfE

I am not a pro or a full time coach so i do not know if i am qualified to give advice, but i have played for maybe over 15 years and been a part time coach for almost 10 years so i might know something that can help you.

I think the best thing you guys can do is to join a club and work on the basics. It is difficult to get help online how you should play and it is important to have somewhat the correct techique from the start. If you have the wrong technique and practice you are then learning and becoming safe with the wrong technique which will be hrd to change later. But then again technique is not everything but still important.

I can try to go through some basics.

The grip: You should hold the racket like you are shaking hand. you want to try to have a neutral grip. You want too have the loose skin in the middle of the racket. If you have room between the middle of the blade and between your thumb or on the other side you are holding either a little backhand grip or forehand grip. Hard to explain in text. A neutral grip will make it easier to do both forehand and backhand.

The footwork: you want to have bend legs so you can use your muscles. With straigh legs you do not use the muscles. You want to be on the front of your feet, on the toes and try to work with small steps. You want to have the legs a little more wider than yoyr shoulders. When you play backhand you want the legs to be pararell, and when youplay forehand you want the left leg a little in front of the right so you can use the body in the shots. You should be almost an extended forearm away from the table or something like that.

On all the shots it is important to wait for the ball to come to the racket. THis will make the shot safe, if you miss the ball you have proably started the swing to early and have not waited for the ball.

Some of the big secrets in my opinion is: Play the ball onto the table: It is also important to always try to play a pace where the ball always go in at the table. this will make you become safe and better because you get to practice the shot more.
Always move the legs so you only do one kind of forehand and one kind of backhand:this will make you safe since you only need to practice on not so many shots. It is harder if you play several different shots.

The serve: hold just with pointing finger and thumb to be able to loosely move the wrist. you can hit over, under, on one side or the other side on the ball and by doing that create different spin. Try to hit the ball fast, faster thin hit with the wrist equals more spin. If you want to serve short you should aim for the net, and long for your white line.

Backhand: try to start by the stomach and hit forward. At all the shots you almost want to point with the racket where you want the ball to go. Try to end the racket with the forehand side facing upwards. This is important because if you do this you have hit over the ball and you will create a little topspin which make it more safe. A common mistake on the backhand is that you start to high and hit downvards.

Forehand: is harder to explain in text and do as a beginner. Try to start infront of your head or your nose then move the elbow back a little to the side of your body and then back to the start again. The elbow should always be infront of your body, it should not be behind. Try hitting the ball infront of you. Where you hit the ball and the legs with the left little infron should almost form a traingle. With the top where you hit the ball and the bottom is the legs. Try to extend your arms, almost somewhere there you want to hit the ball. You always want to move your legs so you make this triangle. common mistakes is hitting behind the body or to far after your nose/head, or starting the swing to early as mention before.

Backspin: Do forehand and backhand as above but have the racket angle facing upwards. Do a short stroke, almost like a lenght of a banana. faster thin hit equals more spin. take the ball early. common mistakes is to long of a stroke.

Topspin: it is important to try to learn topspin early, because this make it much more safe. The ball will go in an arch down on to the table. Easiest way to explain is to do as forehand backhnad as explained above but close the angle of the racket. By doing so you will hit ovver the ball and create spin. The spin comes from forearm and wrist so try to accelerate with that to create spin. more acceleration creates more spin.

Forehand topspin: Like explained before. Spin comes from forearm, power from waist and legs. Closer to the table you obly have time to use the arm. Further away you can use the body to do a more powerful stroke by using the body. Try seeing the arm, waist and, knees like a hinge on the door. When you open it, all the hinges move together, like the arm, knees and legs should be doing. Common mistakes is pushing the arm forward and not swining it. Think of a golfswing, boxing punch or how a discus is thrown. Think how you would do if you would throw the racket as far as way as possible.

Backhand topspin: Easy explained is that the backhand loop is like a frisbee throw.
Try to have the elbow infron of your body and have it steady. Then work with wrist and forearm, and try to accelerate and snap the ball. More wrist closer to the table and more forearm further away. Common mistakes is have the elbow to close to the body and push the ball forward. Another mistake is taking the ball to early, by doing this you get no power, also common mistak on the forehand.

Topspin against backspin: easily explained is that against topspin you want to have the racket high, angle closed and loop with at motion forward.

Against backspin you want an open angle, drop the racket low and loop with a motion upward. need a more explsoive motion compared to loopp againsit topspin. Your friend miss yout push in the beginning since he have the racket to high and hit forward. Try to read my older posts for more clarifcation.

Smash: open angle and try to have short contact with the ball. Flat hit.
Block: take the ball early and do not do much. Always elbow infront body. Try to have the racket high and in the middle. No backswing.

I have surely missed alot but this is atleast a beginning.

I think your technique looks okay for only been playing one year. I think you guys should try to vary the serve a little more, by trying differents serves as i mention above. Now it seems like yoy do the same serve all the time. I also think you should try to play in shorts so you could move better. For your developement i think you would develop faster if you try to play very easy exercises instead of matches. Like forehand forehand, backhand backhand, one in both, or two in both. Or short serve then open. Try to focus on the technique and the secrets i shared in the beginning.

Good luck!

FruitLoop
01-08-2019, 03:33 PM
I think there is a danger in thinking looping against backspin is very different to looping against topspin. They are essentially the same but with adjustments for the spin. Not two different techniques. I think some people get too caught up in the differences and the minutiae and it cripples them. Obviously you must do something differently to adjust, but this is something for your brain to work out with experience. You get lower and hit more vertically yes, but it's the same technique.

Lula, great posts, but regarding the slow spin, if I watch pros slow spin (Timo the best example for me), they still explode with the hips and body, it's not just arm, the difference is in the level of brush of the ball. Timo still swings fast and explosively, just less so and with more brush. I am not sure I have seen anyone use a vastly different technique for a soft slow loop as a fast one. It's just subtle adjustments mainly to the contact.

Ilcane1
01-08-2019, 03:49 PM
Is there a good video for topspin against backspin? I saw everything online but i have many doubts

Lula
01-08-2019, 03:55 PM
I think there is a danger in thinking looping against backspin is very different to looping against topspin. They are essentially the same but with adjustments for the spin. Not two different techniques. I think some people get too caught up in the differences and the minutiae and it cripples them. Obviously you must do something differently to adjust, but this is something for your brain to work out with experience. You get lower and hit more vertically yes, but it's the same technique.

Lula, great posts, but regarding the slow spin, if I watch pros slow spin (Timo the best example for me), they still explode with the hips and body, it's not just arm, the difference is in the level of brush of the ball. Timo still swings fast and explosively, just less so and with more brush. I am not sure I have seen anyone use a vastly different technique for a soft slow loop as a fast one. It's just subtle adjustments mainly to the contact.

Yeah, mostly different angle and direction.

Yes, you are proably correct. I agree that they use the body, But i Do not know how much Waist they are using. I will have to look at Timo boll! It would proably be pretty unsafe to only use the arm and hard to get the ball over the net.

But I think they use even more body and waist when they are looping harder on backspin.

But i still think that as a beginner and for must of us the acceleration of the forearm and bending the legs is way more important than the use of the waist when looping a soft topspin against backspin.

I can imagine that you are correct about the waist and that it comes pretty naturally if you bend the legs and let the arm go down then swing upwards. But i Do not think about it so much, that We actually using the Waist.

Is is great with a discussion so you need to really think about the technique and the advice you are givning.

It would be fun to se one more video after some practice and see then how it looks.

FruitLoop
01-08-2019, 04:26 PM
I think different things work for different people. Some people get it thinking about weight transfer, that didn't work for me, others rotation (worked much better), others about the hip thrusting and leg pushing off the floor etc. But the result ends up the same. It's all about cueing in a way that works to get the body to do what it needs to.

Atas Newton
01-08-2019, 06:13 PM
The one thing that stands out to me is your wrist. As far as I can see you bring the bat backwards, or to the right depending on the perspective, as if playing an inside out forehand. Basically, you do what the red arrow does:
https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/cache.php?img=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tabletennisdaily.com%2Fforum%2Fcache.php%3Fimg%3Dhttps%253A%252F%252Fi.imgur.com%252F5od6Oiq.png

Pardon the wrong sport :-) Couldn't find a pic with shakehand grip viewed from above. It's more difficult to control the ball that way. You wanna straighten your wrist so that the blade continues the line your forearm makes. Check this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2P_zfR4uP1c
Note the wrist angle of Mr. Liqin. It's straight on most of the shots. He kinda bends it like you do when he plays to the right corner but even then the bend is not nearly as extreme.

Ilcane1
01-08-2019, 06:46 PM
Yes probably i need to block my wrist, i change angle and at the end of the stroke it is in a no good position. I'm underdtanding many things. Later i will go practice in the club and i will try your helpful hints.
Thank you to all very much, your are very friendly with me!!

NextLevel
01-08-2019, 06:58 PM
Lula is posting a lot of wisdom that will only make sense to someone who already gets it. Let us hope OP improves a couple of things and posts again. Personally I find commenting on these things with my limited time difficult. The thing I liked that Lula pointed out is that for a year of practice this is not a bad stroke. We often forget that learning takes time and no one gets a great stroke without putting in time. In fact timing backspin is one of the hardest things in table tennis and it takes a while to get efficient at adjusting consistently to the spin on the ball.

Lula
01-08-2019, 08:42 PM
Lula is posting a lot of wisdom that will only make sense to someone who already gets it. Let us hope OP improves a couple of things and posts again. Personally I find commenting on these things with my limited time difficult. The thing I liked that Lula pointed out is that for a year of practice this is not a bad stroke. We often forget that learning takes time and no one gets a great stroke without putting in time. In fact timing backspin is one of the hardest things in table tennis and it takes a while to get efficient at adjusting consistently to the spin on the ball.

I also wonder how much it helps anyone. I remember that you, or was it someone else that said that it is hard to explain technique and strokes in text and i agree with that. It is proably hard to understand it aswell in text, like you said, it make sense if you already understand it.

People here proably need to read the tips they are given but also try to notice it in videos of good players and videos by coaches that show how to do all the different strokes. Maybe then it would be easier to understand what is said in the text. And the easiest and proably fastest way to become better is to join a club where a good coach can help you with the technique live. As a coach i find the easiest way to help students is to simple hold their hand and show them how to do the stroke. And that is difficult over the internet haha :)

Loopadoop
01-08-2019, 09:13 PM
A good Coaching source for inverted rubber and long pips players.

Free detailed step by step coaching videos available at:

YouTube yangyang TT

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC10OPVuU4Ttsu1a9lW5r4Sg

NextLevel
01-08-2019, 09:21 PM
I also wonder how much it helps anyone. I remember that you, or was it someone else that said that it is hard to explain technique and strokes in text and i agree with that. It is proably hard to understand it aswell in text, like you said, it make sense if you already understand it.

People here proably need to read the tips they are given but also try to notice it in videos of good players and videos by coaches that show how to do all the different strokes. Maybe then it would be easier to understand what is said in the text. And the easiest and proably fastest way to become better is to join a club where a good coach can help you with the technique live. As a coach i find the easiest way to help students is to simple hold their hand and show them how to do the stroke. And that is difficult over the internet haha :)

When I used to have time (and Carl as well), we used to link to videos of players and coaches displaying and teaching the ideas that we tried to convey. Many of mine came from Ttedge since most of my formal understanding of TT comes from working with Brett Clarke.

But of course it isn't always fair to try to teach amateurs using pro videos. But Brett was trying to teach technique to amateurs but as a pro coach who wanted amateurs to learn the proper technique. Teaching someone in person, I used to try to teach the technique I thought was best but with compromises for level and age. Learning stuff as an adult is just different.

Loopadoop
01-08-2019, 09:54 PM
I coach seniors sometimes. I improve their technique being practical based on their limitations.

Lula
01-08-2019, 10:21 PM
I coach seniors sometimes. I improve their technique being practical based on their limitations.

I think it is almost more fun to help adults. I feel that they listen better and are more appreciative. I think Kids is so used to attention and that people care about them so they do not listen so well and do not appreciate the help they get.

I also think kids not not have so good perspective because they have not experienced so much. In example, in our club we have a great training hall with like 20 table that is always there and nice red floor, and i think we coaches have pretty good knowledge and care alot. but i feel like the kids take it all for granted because they have not played in any other clubs and do not understand that some clubs do not have so many tables, and even need to put them up before practice and that some clubs do not have so good coaches and maybe not even organized practice. I think that if they realised that some clubs do not have coaches or organized practice they would fight more and listen alot more. I can be somewhat frustrated because i think they have a better starting position than i had when i was young, because we coaches are pretty good at what we do but they do not realise that because they have nothing to compare with.

But they are kids, so it is what it is and i can maybe not expect much more. But it is to bad that they do not take the possibilites that they are given. And sometimes it can be very difficult and soul draining to almost force people to listen and to get them to figth. Any suggestions to have to get the kids to listen and fight more? to understand that they have a pretty good starting point, and have because of that the possibility to become pretty good if they just chose to.

I proably went away a little from the subject here but this have been bothering me a bit, so it was nice to be able to write about it. But sorry if it have not so much to do with the subject.

Ilcane1
01-08-2019, 10:49 PM
Hi guys this evening i played at the club and a new coach was there. He told me the same things you said and the magic started!! The problem now is to use it in the right way during a league match (next thursday against the strongest team). I will load new videos asap...

FruitLoop
01-09-2019, 12:49 AM
To get kids to listen is a herculean task, but I think it's all about keeping it positive and fun. You don't want to be lecturing them.

Dr Evil
01-09-2019, 06:07 AM
Any suggestions to have to get the kids to listen and fight more?
Keep instruction short. More demonstration than talking. Get them playing games or competitive drills as soon as possible. Even beginners should compete to see who can have the longest rally, etc. The ones with a chance to be good will start paying more attention to you as they realize you can help them beat the other kids. For the rest just give them enough structure and attention to have fun.

Lula
01-09-2019, 06:26 AM
To get kids to listen is a herculean task, but I think it's all about keeping it positive and fun. You don't want to be lecturing them.

Of course it must be fun and positive! Otherwise they proably will stop playing. But at the same time i think it should be somewhat serious so i do not fool them to think they are going to become better if we just do fun stuff like only playing games. I feel that they must be better a year later compared to the year before. But i think you are correct that we should try to do everything as positive and as fun as possible!


Keep instruction short. More demonstration than talking. Get them playing games or competitive drills as soon as possible. Even beginners should compete to see who can have the longest rally, etc. The ones with a chance to be good will start paying more attention to you as they realize you can help them beat the other kids. For the rest just give them enough structure and attention to have fun.

Yes, i have really notice that their attentions span is not very long haha. I think it its good to try to do a mix, talk some, show some and even hold their hand. Everyone learn different ways. yeah, i have noticed that they are alot more focused when we count and play games, so we do that alot. But i find it very important that they do the correct technique when we do longest rally games, otherwise it will almost hurt them since they learn the wrong stroke.

Thanks for the tips!

Atas Newton
01-09-2019, 06:46 AM
Hi guys this evening i played at the club and a new coach was there. He told me the same things you said
TTD forums are officially filled with coach-level experts on table tennis :-) Just kidding, glad it worked out for you.

Ilcane1
01-14-2019, 11:25 AM
https://youtu.be/m-6XAsDM32s

Hi guys another video. What do you think? I'm the black one (with red shoes)... ty

Ilcane1
01-14-2019, 08:36 PM
Hi, as promised i loaded one new robot training video to show my progress (if they are there....)
https://youtu.be/mDN_0cLkA_A

Lula
01-14-2019, 10:19 PM
I think it looks pretty good. The most important is that the balls go over the net. So you must be doing something correct.

But i still think you could try to relax the arm more, so the arm will become more extended and by doing so i think you will get more swing and more use of the forearm. Now i think you have the elbow to close to the body so the arm is not so relaxed and you do not get a swing, but are more like pushing the ball forward.

I hope that you understand what you mean. I found it difficult to explain it in text. Maybe you can think that you want to throw the racket away as far as possible, then you will extend the arm and swing it away. Maybe you can think more of the mechanics like the club in a golfswing, or a discusthrow or maybe like the windshield wiper on the car. It do not go back and forth but swing more. Haha, strange examples but maybe you get my point more.

But then again you get the result that you want so maybe you do not need to change anything.

Ilcane1
01-15-2019, 08:00 AM
I think it looks pretty good. The most important is that the balls go over the net. So you must be doing something correct.

But i still think you could try to relax the arm more, so the arm will become more extended and by doing so i think you will get more swing and more use of the forearm. Now i think you have the elbow to close to the body so the arm is not so relaxed and you do not get a swing, but are more like pushing the ball forward.

I hope that you understand what you mean. I found it difficult to explain it in text. Maybe you can think that you want to throw the racket away as far as possible, then you will extend the arm and swing it away. Maybe you can think more of the mechanics like the club in a golfswing, or a discusthrow or maybe like the windshield wiper on the car. It do not go back and forth but swing more. Haha, strange examples but maybe you get my point more.

But then again you get the result that you want so maybe you do not need to change anything.

Ty Lula. Could you suggest any exercise to improve the right swing?

longrange
01-15-2019, 09:16 AM
Hi, what will likely help you is the videos by Brett Clarke, like this:
youtu.be/tyCTDQRkPHo

longrange
01-15-2019, 09:18 AM
And that's against backspin:
youtu.be/A_f9nhtKtBQ

P.s. by the way where are you located in Italy?

Lula
01-15-2019, 09:48 AM
Ty Lula. Could you suggest any exercise to improve the right swing?

I agree with your fellow italian that you should look at videos so you have a somewhat mental picture how it should look like. Then try do some shadow training, maybe infront of a mirror so you see how it looks and then try to do some more balls.

Ilcane1
01-15-2019, 09:50 AM
And that's against backspin:
youtu.be/A_f9nhtKtBQ

P.s. by the way where are you located in Italy?

Thank you. In italy i live in Padua (Padova se sei italiano..) and you?

Ilcane1
01-15-2019, 09:52 AM
I agree with your fellow italian that you should look at videos so you have a somewhat mental picture how it should look like. Then try do some shadow training, maybe infront of a mirror so you see how it looks and then try to do some more balls.

I read many times about "shadow training" but i didn't find anything about that. Could you explain it to me please?

Lula
01-15-2019, 10:02 AM
I read many times about "shadow training" but i didn't find anything about that. Could you explain it to me please?

You do the stroke in the air without the ball. So it will be easier to get the correct form with the ball later.

longrange
01-15-2019, 10:17 AM
I'm in Genova, but I'm not an Italian ((:

yogi_bear
01-15-2019, 01:03 PM
Try this exercise in the video. That is me doing it. Try to correct your form first and everything will just follow.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6diZVBQcIGw

yogi_bear
01-15-2019, 01:20 PM
Let me add that you need to develop the skills to go down, rotate you torso and also contact the ball at late timing when the ball begins to come down. Other timings can follow later.

Ilcane1
02-10-2019, 02:31 PM
Hi guys i made another match training video.. do you think i improved my game? Ty

https://youtu.be/_ADd7z1sAEM

yogi_bear
02-10-2019, 03:32 PM
Not enough rotation and weight transfer during 3rd ball loops. Needs work on footwork.

Atas Newton
02-10-2019, 04:12 PM
I'm not a coach, but I think there's enough spin for your level. Actually your opening loop was the shot I liked the most. Your FH technique is overall pretty decent, but you gotta focus on landing them on the table. Sometimes you go for a big swing and lose control. Obviously there are problems like yogi_bear pointed but you'll sort them out if you train with a coach.

NDH
02-10-2019, 04:33 PM
Hi guys i made another match training video.. do you think i improved my game? Ty

https://youtu.be/_ADd7z1sAEM


Hey @Ilcane1 - I'm not sure which one you are from the video (I hadn't seen your previous videos which now seem to have been removed).

But both players are relying mostly on their arm to make the swing - Not the body and legs.

The power and spin comes from the knee bend, the torso twist and the weight transfer from the legs to the body.

The arm is really just an extension of that.

I think it'll also help you to use plastic balls (unless you've actually got orange plastic balls, but they are so very new and rare these days, it's doubtful).

Spinning the older celluloid balls was easier - So it'll encourage you to use more arm initially as you see the spin being generated.

The plastic balls will force you to use your body, and to twist with the shot.

Lastly - I think it's great you've got a table in a warehouse and making the most of what is around you!

Keep up the good work ;)

Ilcane1
02-10-2019, 05:13 PM
I'm the one with the yellow tshirt!!
I'm playing for a year now, amateur team.
Can you suggest some exercises for footwork? I can do training with a coach only 15min during the training session and it's not enough, but i have a robot and i can do some exercises after work.
i learned to topspin vs backspin and now i need to do the Next step. Ty

Ilcane1
02-10-2019, 05:27 PM
https://youtu.be/GdGSH2B7fvw
At 22.50 there is the best "rally" (if i can call it in this way :) )
The balls we are playing with are hueison 3 stars. I bought them with the robot.
Btw, for you, which is my level now?

NDH
02-10-2019, 05:45 PM
I would buy yourself some plastic balls for match practice. The orange ones are likely the old celluloid balls.

As for footwork drills, there are a number good ones to look at online - But the best thing to do in my opinion is to try and replicate it in training and matches.

As for your question, what do you mean by “which is my level now?”

Ilcane1
02-10-2019, 05:52 PM
My level means if i played in a regular league.. how much training i need..

Ilcane1
02-10-2019, 05:53 PM
I play with orange balls because they are better in the videos!!

Lula
02-10-2019, 06:02 PM
I still think, if you want feedback about your forehand you should do just forehand loop against block so it will be easier for people here to help you :)

Ilcane1
02-10-2019, 06:06 PM
Ok next Week i will post a videos of this

NDH
02-10-2019, 07:02 PM
My level means if i played in a regular league.. how much training i need..

In the UK you can play in a league at any ability level.

Right now, you’d be in the bottom league most likely, but that’s to be expected after only a year of playing.

The more you can play, the better you’ll get.

The top spin video from Yogi is a good place to start.

Ilcane1
02-10-2019, 10:24 PM
Thank you for your support. Maybe my question was wrong, (and sorry also for my english) i meant: in relation of the time i spent and of the level of the training what is your impression about my gameplay level?
Another question: during the league match i see that i'm improoving a lot, but i lose often, many set at 8/9/points.. what can i do to win some matches? (To be more efficient)

Lightzy
02-11-2019, 01:04 AM
https://youtu.be/GdGSH2B7fvw
At 22.50 there is the best "rally" (if i can call it in this way :) )
The balls we are playing with are hueison 3 stars. I bought them with the robot.
Btw, for you, which is my level now?

Hey man. This is what I think:
Here, I suggest to watch this masterclass, there's some great wisdom here (which btw applies to any field, not just TT):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9gklftSy1Y


Your vid looks like a person who's trying to do what he sees on youtube (the full, correct, powerful shots of pros).

Forget about pro shots and proper technique, as well as the advice on 'proper technique', 'torso rotation', 'wrist' etc. It's premature.
Any motion meant to add power and spin necessarily makes timing more difficult. Those are things you add after you have very good timing or at least the understanding of the importance of timing, so that it comes first and the rest of the technique comes second.

It's impossible to get good without the idea of timing that she describes.

Practicing with simplified technique to improve timing is the only thing that ultimately allows more complex technique to be practical.



(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9gklftSy1Y)

Takkyu_wa_inochi
02-11-2019, 01:58 AM
Thank you for your support. Maybe my question was wrong, (and sorry also for my english) i meant: in relation of the time i spent and of the level of the training what is your impression about my gameplay level?
Another question: during the league match i see that i'm improoving a lot, but i lose often, many set at 8/9/points.. what can i do to win some matches? (To be more efficient)

your level ? advanced beginner
what can you do to win some matches ? train better, with coaches. Watch videos on Youtube. Do multiball, shadow training etc... Also be patient, unless you train 10hours + per week with coaches and/or more advanced players, its gonna take time to improve anyway. Table tennis is a very difficult game. You don't need to be good, you need to improve all your weaknesses. Your overall game level is as good as your biggest weak level.

Say your FH drive is 60 your BH drive is 40, your serve is 50, your receive is 45 , your short FH is 30 etc....
well your level is only 30. because a good player will always target your main weakness.

Even if you improve your BH to 50 you level is still 30.

Well i'm exaggerating a bit but you get a gist of the argument

Ilcane1
02-11-2019, 08:48 AM
Ok, 60 to my FH is great!! :)
I will focus on basic training! And i will find a better coach to improve quickly!
And yes i must have a better timing but during a match i see that sometimes i stop myself to watch my stroke and sometimes i accelerate my movement scared to not find the ball

Takkyu_wa_inochi
02-11-2019, 10:40 AM
those were random numbers, it was just an example to illustrate my point, sorry. i'm not rating anything at this stage

NDH
02-11-2019, 12:46 PM
Thank you for your support. Maybe my question was wrong, (and sorry also for my english) i meant: in relation of the time i spent and of the level of the training what is your impression about my gameplay level?
Another question: during the league match i see that i'm improoving a lot, but i lose often, many set at 8/9/points.. what can i do to win some matches? (To be more efficient)

OK, I understand what you are saying.

It's very hard to compare playing levels of people you see online.

If a junior (or adult), had been playing for a year, but been having regular coaching - They would be at a higher level.

If someone was playing for a year with no coaching, no looking on youtube etc, they would probably be at a lower standard.

As long as you have the passion to learn, adapt, and constantly improve - I wouldn't worry about how good you are now, because it's how good you can become that is important.

Regarding your league matches, do you do anything differently when you get to 8/9 in a game?

I often see less experienced players get a bit tight, and don't play their normal game (usually, they are attacking, but they don't go for their shots when the match is close).

They also try and do their spinniest serves (if they have them), which are much harder to play a 3rd ball against if it comes back.

I tend to play a dead spin serve when it's close, and rely on my 3rd ball attack.

PS - Use plastic balls all the time - Even in the videos.

There is no point in practicing with orange celluloid balls if you won't be using them in matches - You'll think you can do shots you can't, and they play very differently.

Get rid of the celluloid balls and get loads of plastic ones!

Ilcane1
02-11-2019, 05:52 PM
€ 11,64 30%di SCONTO | Huieson 50 pz/pacco 3 Star Nuovo Materiale Da Tavolo Palle Da Tennis 40 + ABS di Plastica Ping Pong Palline Da Ping Pong Accessori
https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/F8Bigxr

Do you think they are celluloid balls?

Ilcane1
02-11-2019, 05:56 PM
Except some theory i'm a self-taught palyer.. most of my improvements came from my robot, video analysis and some match in the club

Ilcane1
02-11-2019, 06:33 PM
Except some theory i'm a self-taught palyer.. most of my improvements came from my robot, video analysis and some match in the club

RidTheKid
02-11-2019, 07:19 PM
Why don't you just go and buy the D40+ by DHS. They're good and cheap.

NextLevel
02-11-2019, 07:25 PM
If cost is that big a deal, a high level coach recommended this to me.

https://m.aliexpress.com/item/32965031520.html?trace=wwwdetail2mobilesitedetail&productId=32965031520&productSubject=Huieson-100-Pcs-3-Star-40mm-2-8g-Table-Tennis-Balls-Ping-Pong-Balls-for-Match&spm=2114.search0104.3.9.4e991c34oIDMzo&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_4_10065_10068_319_10059_10884_317_10548_10887_10696_321_322_10084_453_10083_454_10103_10618_10307_537_536_10902,searchweb201603_55,ppcSwitch_0&algo_expid=89ea2ee9-b5f1-4115-8a99-c50e8bfbf349-1&algo_pvid=89ea2ee9-b5f1-4115-8a99-c50e8bfbf349&transAbTest=ae803_3

Ilcane1
02-11-2019, 10:09 PM
If cost is that big a deal, a high level coach recommended this to me.

https://m.aliexpress.com/item/32965031520.html?trace=wwwdetail2mobilesitedetail&productId=32965031520&productSubject=Huieson-100-Pcs-3-Star-40mm-2-8g-Table-Tennis-Balls-Ping-Pong-Balls-for-Match&spm=2114.search0104.3.9.4e991c34oIDMzo&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_4_10065_10068_319_10059_10884_317_10548_10887_10696_321_322_10084_453_10083_454_10103_10618_10307_537_536_10902,searchweb201603_55,ppcSwitch_0&algo_expid=89ea2ee9-b5f1-4115-8a99-c50e8bfbf349-1&algo_pvid=89ea2ee9-b5f1-4115-8a99-c50e8bfbf349&transAbTest=ae803_3


They are the same balls i use: HUIESON 3 STARS 40+
We have also some old celluloid balls and the difference is very high
I don't know the real material at last.