How to get explosive forehand power (with Paul Drinkhall)

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Just noticed this video released by Tom Lodziak with Paul Drinkhall. As always, a good video presented by Tom with quality content.

What I am unsure about, starts at 1:20. Paul mentions to take the ball "just before the top of the bounce". Does he really mean taking the ball earlier, like before the top of the bounce, or is it about hitting forward through the top of the ball?

For me, it still looks like he is playing the shot just slightly after the top of the bounce, but I may be wrong. With my amateur timing, I usually play this shot just around the top of the bounce, mostly just a little after.
 
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This seems like a nice video! I have not yet watched it yet, but i feel that it sounds strange to take it before the top of the bounce. I would think that if you take the ball at the top of the bounce, the ball is just a little higher compared to just before the top of the bounce and you then can play a harder more powerful shot because you do not need as much arch on the ball for it to go over the net. But maybe it is so small difference that i does not matter.

I also think that if we take the ball before the top of the bounce we proably need to stand a little closer to the table? compared to taking the ball at the top of the bounce? if this is true, it feels like it would limit the power you can get on the ball since you can not use as much body in the shot if you are a bit closer to the table compared to further away. And the body is important to play a powerful shot.

so in my opinion it would be wiser to hit the ball at the top of the bounce but is hard to argue with a pro haha.

Maybe i confuse explosive with powerful, that it is not the same. I am not sure. Would be interesting to here others opinions. Edit: have not watched the video yet, i am to tired haha. Maybe i will understand better if i do that.
 
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Just noticed this video released by Tom Lodziak with Paul Drinkhall. As always, a good video presented by Tom with quality content.

What I am unsure about, starts at 1:20. Paul mentions to take the ball "just before the top of the bounce". Does he really mean taking the ball earlier, like before the top of the bounce, or is it about hitting forward through the top of the ball?

For me, it still looks like he is playing the shot just slightly after the top of the bounce, but I may be wrong. With my amateur timing, I usually play this shot just around the top of the bounce, mostly just a little after.

Every pro I have ever watched usually takes the ball a very slight bit after the top of the bounce and calls it the top of the bounce or earlier. Mind and reality don't always match up.
 
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I found this video really helpful. I'm guilty of letting the ball fall too far after the bounce and kind of "lifting" the ball up and I do think that the trajectory of the ball is quite different if you hit it like Paul does at the top of (or near the top of) the bounce. However, I also think he hits it just after the top of the bounce.

I used to hit the ball quite late (and still do out of habit) as I thought I would get more safety by hitting a slower and spinnier ball to get the ball to spin on to the table. But after watching this video I've tried to hit the ball earlier and hit down on to the table rather than up and then down and I think that produces a much better shot. I think it is actually just as "safe" as hitting the ball up and then having it spin down.
 
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I think most amateurs like us end up hitting the ball a little too late due to our lack of training on anticipation and footwork. I find having the proper footwork to be the most challenging part of the table tennis and this is honestly the hardest hurdle to overcome. I feel at this point it's almost impossible to really master footwork because you really need to start training at a young age to establish a good habit.
 
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I think you are a little negative about your possibilities to develop as an adult. With proper help from a coach i think it would be pretty easy to become better at footwork and hitting the ball at the highest point. I agree it would proably be easier if you start earlier and Maybe you Do not get as good footwork as the pros But i think still that it could become really good.
 
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I think that a lot of people forget that most of the forehand power comes from rotating the waist. I see a huge number of the pros doing this, and it puts a tremendous amount of spin on the ball.
 
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I think you are a little negative about your possibilities to develop as an adult. With proper help from a coach i think it would be pretty easy to become better at footwork and hitting the ball at the highest point. I agree it would proably be easier if you start earlier and Maybe you Do not get as good footwork as the pros But i think still that it could become really good.

The best way to learn, understand the proper footwork fundamentals, then do a 100 home exercises a day, start in slow motion, until mastered, then do normal. Shadow your paddle while doing. Think of this as aerobics on non club days.
 
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The best way to learn, understand the proper footwork fundamentals, then do a 100 home exercises a day, start in slow motion, until mastered, then do normal. Shadow your paddle while doing. Think of this as aerobics on non club days.

I think start in slow motion is good for everything in tabletennis. To do shadow training, practice without the ball is even better i think. Too difficult to learn things with the ball. As long as you have a good coach that can look so you do the correct motions. Then start slow with the ball and after a while faster.
 
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I think start in slow motion is good for everything in tabletennis. To do shadow training, practice without the ball is even better i think. Too difficult to learn things with the ball. As long as you have a good coach that can look so you do the correct motions. Then start slow with the ball and after a while faster.

I think Richard Prause once said it very well that adult learners are the ones who want to rush the most but are also the ones you need to take the most time and go slowly with or something like that.
 
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I think Richard Prause once said it very well that adult learners are the ones who want to rush the most but are also the ones you need to take the most time and go slowly with or something like that.

That can proably be true. I think that one problem for all players that begin that it seems like it is somewhat in human nature that you want to play as fast and hard as possible, and if possible smack the crap out of the ball every time. Very few seem to like to play slower and not as fast and just put the ball on the table. But that is just my experience. I takes alot of time i think to learn and to get people to understand that if they do the motion slower and put the ball on the table they will become much better faster. Shadow training is very hard aswell to get atleast kids to do serious, even just for a minute. Everyone will play with the ball, and that is understandable, but if i can get kids to do shadow training serious and for a longer period of time i think they will skyrock in their developement. It is waay to difficult for beginners in my opinion to both learn a new stroke, do it correct and also focus on get the ball on the table. so many times they forget the technique and how we explained how they should do the stroke because they really really just want to get the ball over the net. Without a ball this will not be a problem, beacuse they only need to focus on doing the correct motion, but of course it is alos necessary to play with the ball to get the feel of the ball.
 
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That can proably be true. I think that one problem for all players that begin that it seems like it is somewhat in human nature that you want to play as fast and hard as possible, and if possible smack the crap out of the ball every time. Very few seem to like to play slower and not as fast and just put the ball on the table. But that is just my experience. I takes alot of time i think to learn and to get people to understand that if they do the motion slower and put the ball on the table they will become much better faster. Shadow training is very hard aswell to get atleast kids to do serious, even just for a minute. Everyone will play with the ball, and that is understandable, but if i can get kids to do shadow training serious and for a longer period of time i think they will skyrock in their developement. It is waay to difficult for beginners in my opinion to both learn a new stroke, do it correct and also focus on get the ball on the table. so many times they forget the technique and how we explained how they should do the stroke because they really really just want to get the ball over the net. Without a ball this will not be a problem, beacuse they only need to focus on doing the correct motion, but of course it is alos necessary to play with the ball to get the feel of the ball.

When doing the shadow practice, to get the full benefits, you need to imagine the spin on the ball and your contact point on rubber.
 
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[video=youtube;NRLTmazK7n4]...What I am unsure about, starts at 1:20. Paul mentions to take the ball "just before the top of the bounce". Does he really mean taking the ball earlier, like before the top of the bounce, or is it about hitting forward through the top of the ball?

For me, it still looks like he is playing the shot just slightly after the top of the bounce, but I may be wrong. With my amateur timing, I usually play this shot just around the top of the bounce, mostly just a little after.
Just before the top of bounce. The Chinese term is "上升後期" or late ascent. That's the optimal timing advocated in Chinese coaching. Expect nothing less from Drinkhall, given he was coached by Liu Jiayi.

The blue points are the late ascent.
4JzGBxx.png


The late ascent is difficult to pinpoint, since you never know until after the ball is past the top of bounce. Therefore, just as you've noticed, players usually hit near or after top of bounce. Yet, they still strive for that because they want players to initiate the stroke earlier. Say you aim for top of bounce, you'd hit well after that point due to the minimum reaction time, unless you execute your stroke ahead of time. That's the idea.
 
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Excellent explanation, zeio! I think you are right, to strive with the timing to initiate the stroke earlier but the result is near or after the top of the bounce.
 
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I don't feel I have every had problems getting "explosive power" in my shots.
I have problems controlling the "explosive power". This is the real difference between the pros and us.
It is all about paddle speed. You can hit through the ball for ball speed or brush the ball for spin and anything in between.
There is only so much paddle speed. I young athlete will have more than me but can he control it?

I think that a lot of people forget that most of the forehand power comes from rotating the waist.
Rotating the waist helps paddle speed. Moving the body does require more power than just moving an arm. TT is a very inefficient game. That is why it is such good exercise.

Hitting at the top of the bounce is not always a good idea. In zeio's picture the red line is definitely not as good as the green line but the green line is not optimal either. The green line could be flatter and hit closer to the end of the table. The optimal trajectory occurs when the height of the ball is maximum as the ball passes over the net. The red line definitely doesn't pass this test. The green line would be optimized by hitting just a little bit latter and flatter so the ball doesn't land so close to the net.

If you can you want to hit the ball at just the right height not caring about whether it is the top of the bounce unless you are going for a flat kill shoot at the top of the bounce. If you hit the ball from a high spot over the table, the ball will bounce up about 80% of the height from which you hit the ball. This still may too high to make for an easy return for the opponent.
If you hit the ball at a just over net height the ball will not need to be hit up. The ball will bounce up only about 80% of the height from which you hit the ball. The ball will not bounce up above the net. If the the ball has top spin the Magnus effect will keep the ball even lower. The lower return will force the opponent to hit the ball up over the net like in the red line. These balls will give you options.

Use a camera to record your play looking across the net. Notice where the peak of the arcs are. If the arcs are not at the peak as the ball crosses the net the trajectory is not optimal and the ball will bounce high. The best trajectories will be as flat and long as possible and starting from a point just over the net. Now one needs pro skill to pull this off.

Think about minimizing flight time and the height of the ball bounce on the opponent's side of the table.
 
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Think about minimizing flight time and the height of the ball bounce on the opponent's side of the table.

Interesting thread. As a taller FH dominant player Ive always thought about arc as I tend to aim for the top of bounce but put a lot off the table long. I've thought about stepping back from the table and waiting later before looping but Im not sure its ideal. Close to table loops work better standing low and taking the ball low.
One of my problems is when I spin the ball up and get a high block, Ill tend to stand up to meet it but that means an attacking shot quite high above the net (might go long) . If the bounce is high on your side, should you step back and wait until the ball is low enough to take low?
 
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Interesting thread. As a taller FH dominant player Ive always thought about arc as I tend to aim for the top of bounce but put a lot off the table long. I've thought about stepping back from the table and waiting later before looping but Im not sure its ideal. Close to table loops work better standing low and taking the ball low.
One of my problems is when I spin the ball up and get a high block, Ill tend to stand up to meet it but that means an attacking shot quite high above the net (might go long) . If the bounce is high on your side, should you step back and wait until the ball is low enough to take low?

Brokenball likes to take a physics approach to TT. It doesn't always follow that this is the best way to play. I think taking the ball later is actually the best way to go, though taking it later doesn't mean you have to let it fall below the table. By later, I mean after the peak bounce. The contact point is more intuitive and natural at this point in the ball flight. For heavy spin balls, it is harder to find the right contact point if the ball is on the rise. In fact many pros take a step back once the ball goes long to avoid being stuck trying to play a heavy spinning ball on the rise - the power in the modern game is too high to do this consistently.
 
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Brokenball likes to take a physics approach to TT. It doesn't always follow that this is the best way to play.
Why? You propose no counter point.

I think taking the ball later is actually the best way to go,
Yes, sometimes but the goal should be to keep the top of your arc occurring as the ball crosses over the net to keep the ball lower.

though taking it later doesn't mean you have to let it fall below the table.
Agree.

By later, I mean after the peak bounce.
Before or after will be better than hitting the ball at peak bounce unless going for a line of sight kill shot.
SP players tend to hit the ball before the peak. It reduces opponent reaction time and provides the SP hitter wider angle shots.

The contact point is more intuitive and natural at this point in the ball flight. For heavy spin balls, it is harder to find the right contact point if the ball is on the rise.
Yes, but one of my best shots is a quick counter hit of looped balls that bounce too high. Often the ball comes back to the looper before he has a chance to recover. It also changes the pace.

In fact many pros take a step back once the ball goes long to avoid being stuck trying to play a heavy spinning ball on the rise - the power in the modern game is too high to do this consistently.
[/quote]
They have more time to react and are nimble enough to chase down balls. The ball slows down quite quickly. The 40mm ball slows down about 50% for every 5 meters of travel. Getting back allows one to hit a much slower ball.

Again, record a side view video where the camera points along the net so the arc of the ball can be monitored.
 
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compared to just before the top of the bounce and you then can play a harder more powerful shot because you do not need as much arch on the ball for it to go over the net. But maybe it is so small difference that i does not matter.
 
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