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View Full Version : My BH topspins are very flat, need more arc and spin



toekneema
01-28-2019, 03:08 AM
Should BH topspins close to the table (like warmup BHs) be low and flat? Because mine are very flat and have no trajectory. I use Tenergy 05 on BH so the rubber is definitely not an issue. I need to speculate my technique because I have no arc on my BH topspins and I don't know how to generate spin without having to finish the stroke up high near my face. Do i need to take the ball early off the bounce or do i need to accelerate the wrist really fast during contact? I need more arc in order to play the balls safely over the net when I'm away from the table or even close the table in a fast rally

Any advice would be great, thanks.

NextLevel
01-28-2019, 03:29 AM
Should BH topspins close to the table (like warmup BHs) be low and flat? Because mine are very flat and have no trajectory. I use Tenergy 05 on BH so the rubber is definitely not an issue. I need to speculate my technique because I have no arc on my BH topspins and I don't know how to generate spin without having to finish the stroke up high near my face. Do i need to take the ball early off the bounce or do i need to accelerate the wrist really fast during contact? I need more arc in order to play the balls safely over the net when I'm away from the table or even close the table in a fast rally

Any advice would be great, thanks.

Arc simply means circular strokes. If your ball has no arc, you haven't figured out how to turn the ball. It's really as simple as that. Most of the time, it means either your elbow or your shoulder is not aiding the circular turn of the stroke. The wrist tends to follow the shoulder/elbow.

This video - what the coach shows - is the foundation of the backhand topspin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gri2K5EoQQc&feature=youtu.be

People complicate it with all kinds of things but it really is that simple.

trumpet_guy
01-28-2019, 03:32 AM
These videos are excellent and relevant to your question.

http://youtu.be/W_yifhqHl5o

http://youtu.be/CoDTUlBznFo

Dr Evil
01-28-2019, 03:45 AM
Easier to give advice if you provide a video. Meanwhile, a flat low spin trajectory with T05 can only mean you're hitting rather than brushing the ball. For close to the table off-the-bounce counter-topspin, close your racket angle and brush over the top of the ball. For looping a long heavy push use a more open racket angle and brush up the back of the ball. More wrist snap generally gives you more spin but requires better timing. If your backhand technique is more old style (less wrist, more arm) then you'll probably have to finish a bit higher to lift heavy underspin but with T05 you shouldn't need to finish straight up near your face.

NextLevel
01-28-2019, 03:57 AM
These videos are excellent and relevant to your question.

http://youtu.be/W_yifhqHl5o

http://youtu.be/CoDTUlBznFo

In my view, both videos are confusing and poor.

trumpet_guy
01-28-2019, 04:00 AM
NextLevel,
Please comment on the Michael Maze video and explain how it could be improved. Many thanks.

toekneema
01-28-2019, 04:06 AM
Thank you so much, that video was extremely helpful. !Yes !
Arc simply means circular strokes. If your ball has no arc, you haven't figured out how to turn the ball. It's really as simple as that. Most of the time, it means either your elbow or your shoulder is not aiding the circular turn of the stroke. The wrist tends to follow the shoulder/elbow.

This video - what the coach shows - is the foundation of the backhand topspin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gri2K5EoQQc&feature=youtu.be

People complicate it with all kinds of things but it really is that simple.

NextLevel
01-28-2019, 04:08 AM
NextLevel,
Please comment on the Michael Maze video and explain how it could be improved. Many thanks.

1) If you have seen Michael Maze play a backhand topspin, you will know it doesn't look anything like that.
2) The instruction for stance has him side on the the table and taking the racket to the the side of him but when he plays the stroke, he is square to the table and plays the whole stroke in front of him like most normal TT players close to the table.
3) The instruction is wordy and doesn't tell you anything that makes the stroke intuitive. People use things like "throw a frisbee" or "do a windshield wiper over the ball and forward" and those things are often more intuitive than lots of confusing instructions.


I can go on, but compare the video to the video I posted with the Chinese coach. Isn't that video much simpler to copy?

If there is one stroke I am qualified to teach, it is the backhand topspin. I can tell when someone is getting to the point and when someone is wasting your time.

Der_Echte
01-28-2019, 04:40 AM
The BH can make a real good topspin with pretty much a short stroke. It is much easier and natural to make a short area whip with BH.

Next Level has seen some of my BH topspin and it has also gotten much better since he last saw me. Next Level know the BH and how to teach it too, he also has a lot of pro friends who can teach it.

How one does the shot will depend on the incoming ball and what you want to do.

It comes down to a fast bat at impact and how you grip the bat at impact. You get a fast bat by doing something to start kinetic energy, then amplify it with lower arm, wrist, and fingers. The hitting upper arm and elbow will get to the position needed and be stopped, then stable/loose. This stopping while loose transfers the power to the lower arm if the elbow is also loose and used as a lever. Once power goes there, one engages lower arm, then wrist, then fingers (tighten only right at impact for additional power/spin or keep looser to eat through existing spin on ball)

The shot can be done from anywhere... but it is a lot easier to control the ball and put on your own topspin when you take the ball off the bounce.

It can also help to impact the side of ball a little to help over ride heavy incoming topspin. (easier to do a step away from table vs a medium or fast loop)

The few things I can say to visualize or improve the road to learning a good BH topspin (if one is hitting flat) is to stay loose every where, not go for wide sweeping stroke, lift the ball a little more, and not hit the ball as direct.

That is a lot of general talk and one needs to stay loose (easier said than done) and discover the feel of the impact for themselves.

One exercise coaches do to develop the feel for the ball on this is for partner and player to crowd the BH corner of table and do off the bounce BH to each other RIGHT OFF THE BOUNCE... like only centimeters from the bounce... keep wrist and arm loose, go for short stroke... borrow speed and spin of the ball... use a very short stroke (one gets the importance of a short stroke here at first, like not even a foot stroke)… once timing off the bounce is improved to be very consistent, add more power by stronger use of lower arm and more firm tightening of grip at impact... progressively tighten grip more at impact and learn to allow ball to come up just a bit more for this powerful short are BH topspin.

Doing this exercise with a player who has consistent and strong BH will do wonders... even if it is just 5 minutes a few times a week. I see many kids growing touch for this shot this way. Even in Korea, where the BH is well know for being very flat and coaches teaching a flat BH, the coaches developing the pro-style trained kids get it... and show the kids how to develop touch, spin, control then power (spin and speed).

If one hears that the BH can be spinny and controllable with a tiny stroke, one would think someone was off their rocker. Yet, it is true, a BH can be powerful without a long stroke. Even my longest counter topspin BH stroke away from the table is no more than 2 feet long finishing in front of my chin and chest. Maybe the opening loop vs underspin requires a longer stroke (you are getting down and exploding more), but the OP is (I think) asking about a spinny higher arching BH topspin rally shot or counter BH Topspin.

trumpet_guy
01-28-2019, 05:38 AM
Thank you for the extra clarification, NextLevel.

Lula
01-28-2019, 07:43 AM
I think people already have comment good on these so i Will just say some stuff.

I Do not think it is so bad that they are flat and No arch close to the table. Close to the table you want to play fast and spin is slow. And if you hit the ball at the highest point you really Do not need that much arch because the ball is almost over the net. You get more problems if you take the ball further down then you need more Arch.


But if you need more spin and arch, try this. Try putting the elbow infront of the body and use it as an axis, close the angle of the racket so you hit over the ball and accelerate mostly with the wrist. Close to the table it is hard to have the time to use the foreaem. I would say that if you hit the ball flat the biggest issue is that you have to open racket angle so you Do not hit over the ball. If you have closed angle and want more spin you need to brush the ball faster.

I also this can be due the equipment but remember to also try to adjust the technique. With a hard stiff blade and hard rubbers the ball Will leave the racket faster and have less arch. I like this close to the table But Maybe this is not for everyone. Try looping a little more upwards if you have this fast equipment because the ball tend to go down. You can try a softer slower racket and see how it is like. But if you get flathits the problem is proably the technique and that you have to open angle of the racket.

FruitLoop
01-28-2019, 11:13 AM
Soft grip, soft wrist required along with a relatively closed angle to produce spin which gives it arc.

Tony's Table Tennis
01-28-2019, 06:50 PM
I think people already have comment good on these so i Will just say some stuff.

I Do not think it is so bad that they are flat and No arch close to the table. Close to the table you want to play fast and spin is slow. And if you hit the ball at the highest point you really Do not need that much arch because the ball is almost over the net. You get more problems if you take the ball further down then you need more Arch.


But if you need more spin and arch, try this. Try putting the elbow infront of the body and use it as an axis, close the angle of the racket so you hit over the ball and accelerate mostly with the wrist. Close to the table it is hard to have the time to use the foreaem. I would say that if you hit the ball flat the biggest issue is that you have to open racket angle so you Do not hit over the ball. If you have closed angle and want more spin you need to brush the ball faster.

I also this can be due the equipment but remember to also try to adjust the technique. With a hard stiff blade and hard rubbers the ball Will leave the racket faster and have less arch. I like this close to the table But Maybe this is not for everyone. Try looping a little more upwards if you have this fast equipment because the ball tend to go down. You can try a softer slower racket and see how it is like. But if you get flathits the problem is proably the technique and that you have to open angle of the racket.

+1
I have a fast setup, my arc is low and i'm happy
and I agree the ball hitting "height" is crucial here for arc generation
I would also say Tenergy 05 is not the best rubber for learning.

zeio
01-28-2019, 06:57 PM
...Do i need to take the ball early off the bounce or do i need to accelerate the wrist really fast during contact? I need more arc in order to play the balls safely over the net when I'm away from the table or even close the table in a fast rally

Any advice would be great, thanks.
No, you don't. Butterfly has your back covered. What you need is not better technique, but better rubber and Butterfly has just the latest and greatest model designed for players like you!

D05 - with 22% higher arc than T05.

https://www.butterfly.co.jp/product/dignics/images/dignics_fig01.gif
https://www.butterfly.co.jp/product/dignics/images/dignics_fig02a.gif

Tony's Table Tennis
01-28-2019, 07:05 PM
haha Zeio

good one, but I wanted to ask Butterfly, is that a table tennis stroke or a badminton stroke.
if someone hit the ball so high up, I dont understand how one can still get such a high arc.
this new rubber must be so special

Der_Echte
01-28-2019, 07:33 PM
Greg Letts was predicting bty would come out with T105... the tenergy that will cost 105 dollars.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Der_Echte
01-28-2019, 07:38 PM
For my heavy and slower topspins, I really like a higher arch... but with my bh, not ALL my shots will carry such heavy topspin and I am fine with flat. Avery fast drive can be a good shot in some situations and easier to execute.

Fruit Loop said it more concisely, there is some learning of touch involved to do heavier higher arching loops.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

mart1nandersson
01-28-2019, 09:59 PM
+1
I have a fast setup, my arc is low and i'm happy
and I agree the ball hitting "height" is crucial here for arc generation
I would also say Tenergy 05 is not the best rubber for learning.

Are there any benefits of producing a high arc if the spin/speed is fairly similar to a loop with a low arc? Or will a low arc loop always be faster but with less spin?

(Personally I have a hard time playing against players that loop with a ridiculously high arc but just comes to me being shit at anticipating spin)

Tony's Table Tennis
01-28-2019, 10:04 PM
Are there any benefits of producing a high arc if the spin/speed is fairly similar to a loop with a low arc? Or will a low arc loop always be faster but with less spin?

(Personally I have a hard time playing against players that loop with a ridiculously high arc but just comes to me being shit at anticipating spin)

I'm from the Chinese school of coaching.
low arc for me in the way to go - the ball gets there faster
higher arc, opponent will have more time.

But similarly I would take the ball earlier, thus causing low arc.
normal higher arc players will take the ball late.
taking it late will be too difficult to go low arc

but the 40+ has changed a lot of this.
The rallies are becoming longer, and even Chinese players need to mix higher arc in rallies, and I would say lower arc is more heavy strain on the body - one need to get in position faster.

When I train kids, I will train both

for your issue of receiving higher arc, I would say counter top spin the ball earlier
Don't wait for the ball to spin out and cause heavy spin for you.
Off the bounce counter works the best
A) less spin to absurb
B) your are changing the timing and your opponent will get a "rushed" return to him

Lula
01-28-2019, 10:09 PM
Are there any benefits of producing a high arc if the spin/speed is fairly similar to a loop with a low arc? Or will a low arc loop always be faster but with less spin?

(Personally I have a hard time playing against players that loop with a ridiculously high arc but just comes to me being shit at anticipating spin)

I think that a high arc loop is much more safe. If you are beginner it is better to begin with these and not miss so much. It is less margin for error if you loop higher over the net compared to lower. But i think if you play good players they will counterloop the higher arc loops pretty well, so at a higher level it is proably better to loop lower arc loops i think.

Why do you have a trouble with a high arc loop? I have a hard time imagine how the ball bounce differently between a high and low arc loop. I think the ball bounces higher with a high arc loop. if this is the case, maybe you have the racket to low and need to have it higher up where the ball is. If you are good at low arc loops but bad against high arc loops something needs to be different, and you need to something different aswell. This would be much easier to help you with if i saw it i think.

mart1nandersson
01-28-2019, 10:20 PM
I think that a high arc loop is much more safe. If you are beginner it is better to begin with these and not miss so much. It is less margin for error if you loop higher over the net compared to lower. But i think if you play good players they will counterloop the higher arc loops pretty well, so at a higher level it is proably better to loop lower arc loops i think.

Why do you have a trouble with a high arc loop? I have a hard time imagine how the ball bounce differently between a high and low arc loop. I think the ball bounces higher with a high arc loop. if this is the case, maybe you have the racket to low and need to have it higher up where the ball is. If you are good at low arc loops but bad against high arc loops something needs to be different, and you need to something different aswell. This would be much easier to help you with if i saw it i think.

I have no issue producing both high and low arcs (with the FH) but both are still quite slow as I'm a beginner. I _THINK_ that my high arc loops have got more spin as I get a higher success with the opponents "popping" their blocks long.

The issue with receiving it is probably what Tony describes as in taking it too late and letting the spin maximize.

Lightzy
01-28-2019, 11:06 PM
Yes, good backhand topspins close to the table are fast, low and flat.
Ideally forehand topspins are the same, but it depends on distance. Close to the table, every topspin should be flat.
Sounds like you're doing great.