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View Full Version : Whats the difference between the zjk alc and the zjk zlc and the szlc



Yung-Zion
02-07-2019, 09:14 PM
Can anyone help me with this, i m currently using a hurricane ml 5 and i like the blade, but i would like to try something new. i really like the zjk blade series style but i don t know anything how they compare and which one feels more like a ma long 5 or maybe not at all. Thanks for your help

NDH
02-07-2019, 09:17 PM
The ALC will feel most like the Ma Long 5.

The ZLC will offer a bit more pop (I find the trajectory a bit higher with ZLC) and the super ZLC will make Butterfly feel like they are marketing geniuses (it’s not worth the money).

G_ZHANG
02-07-2019, 09:23 PM
ZJKs are all outer fibre with koto as top-ply. MaLong5 is inner fibre with limba as top-ply.
None of them feels similar to MaLong5. And you will require different techniques to switch from Malong5 to ZJK series (whatever version).

To compare the ZJK series, ALC has the best balance between speed and control. ZLC is more bouncy and less control. Super ZJK is just... er... a beast too fast to tame.

yogi_bear
02-08-2019, 10:20 AM
Do not be surprised if they will release a super harimoto blade in the future.

NDH
02-08-2019, 10:46 AM
Do not be surprised if they will release a super harimoto blade in the future.

I'm still getting over the shock that their first Harimoto blade is, in Butterfly terms - Cheap!

Unless they honestly felt they couldn't charge anymore for what is ultimately an Innerforce ALC, despite it being rebranded with the next big superstars name?

But they charged a premium on the Apolonia and Freitas blades - Yet not Harimoto?

I expect them to really flesh out the Harimoto blade line up, and I can see it overtaking the Timo Boll line up in the next 5-10 years.

jackass22
02-08-2019, 10:55 AM
Freitas alc is something different, its is outer alc carbon blade with thicker limba as outer ply.
The best blade form butterfly alc blades.
Control, dweel, speed. Something between alc and alc innerforce.

NDH
02-08-2019, 10:57 AM
Freitas alc is something different, its is outer alc carbon blade with thicker limba as outer ply.
The best blade form butterfly alc blades.
Control, dweel, speed. Something between alc and alc innerforce.

Wasn't the Freitas pretty much a rebrand of the Maze?

jackass22
02-08-2019, 12:13 PM
Wasn't the Freitas pretty much a rebrand of the Maze?

No, in spite of Freitas claimed it in video. I ve had both, they have another thickness of plies.

NDH
02-08-2019, 12:22 PM
No, in spite of Freitas claimed it in video. I ve had both, they have another thickness of plies.

Ok, but it was pretty damn close.

The Harimoto has slightly thicker plies compared with the Innerforce ALC, but 99% is the same from the looks of things.

jackass22
02-08-2019, 12:33 PM
Here isn't close. Freitas ALC has 6 mm and much thicker outer limba ply than maze alc. Old maze alc had 5.5 mm. This is difference 20% ! Totally another feeling, dwell- another blade.



Ok, but it was pretty damn close.

The Harimoto has slightly thicker plies compared with the Innerforce ALC, but 99% is the same from the looks of things.

yogi_bear
02-08-2019, 12:47 PM
Maybe they learned about rebranding and increasing the price do not always work.

donS7er
02-08-2019, 05:53 PM
I think the player performance & current rank also influenced the sales of signature blade

I have 2 balls
02-10-2019, 09:13 AM
Ok, but it was pretty damn close.

The Harimoto has slightly thicker plies compared with the Innerforce ALC, but 99% is the same from the looks of things.


Exactly. I hate that butterfly changes the design of the handle and claims it's a new blade. They already lost their creativity and boldness, and can never make sth new. Basically the Apple in table tennis industry.

yoass
02-10-2019, 09:43 AM
Exactly. I hate that butterfly changes the design of the handle and claims it's a new blade. They already lost their creativity and boldness, and can never make sth new. Basically the Apple in table tennis industry.

I beg to differ, and think this is a misunderstanding of how product refinement works.

That’s usually a tedious and grinding process of continuous adaptation, making a lot of small changes in conjunction, rather than bold blowouts. And it’s a dance, often, with every two steps forward requiring one step sideways or back.

This is true of Apple (I happen to know a bit about that), even though in public presentation the attention is drawn towards the spectacular. The "breakthrough communication device" Jobs put center stage back then was the result of such a sysiphean task. Current macOS (and, hence, iOs and TV OS etc) are the result of slowly grinding away at it for 30+ years at least - I’d even say 50+ year, including its Unix and MACH roots.

And I believe it to be true in general. If a given blade has exceptional qualities in some aspects, improvement may do well to take that design into account and build on it. Yes, seemingly minor tweaks in handle shape, ply thickness, gluing process, material selection, tooling optimization, blade balance may be exactly this: the continuous grind at product improvement.

It may also be callous marketing, certainly. But don’t make the mistake that improvement, creativity, are like divine flahes of radical new insights. It is not. Everything is hard-fought and tedious.

NDH
02-10-2019, 06:46 PM
This is true of Apple ( I happen to know a bit about that), even though in public presentation the attention is drawn towards the spectacular. The iPhone was the result of such a Sysiphus task. Current macOS (and, hence, iOs and TV OS etc) are the result of slowly grinding away at it for 30+ years at least - I’d even say 50+ year, including its Unix and MACH roots.

I can see where you are going with that, but there are tangible advancements with each new Apple release.

The processors get quicker, more RAM, better speed across the OS’s etc etc.

Rebranding a blade that has existed for many years, sticking a new players name on it, and changing the thickness by 0.2mm is not an improvement.

It’s an adaption, which will favour some, and not others.

However, in previous years Butterfly would have charged a hefty premium because of the superstars name (Apolonia is a prime example), yet they haven’t done that with the Harimoto blade.

Can anyone actually give a well thought out reason why Butterfly have not charged a premium for the Harimoto blade?

Clearly their pricing strategy hasn’t changed when you look at Dignics - They are still pushing the boundaries on what people will pay (similar to Apple!)

But to release the Harimoto blade at €140 is very low for Butterfly.

My thoughts are that they want it to be a bestseller and take over the TB line.

Or...... They really don’t see how they can stick much of a premium on an Innerforce ALC (but I’m still surprised it’s EXACTLY the same price!)




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I have 2 balls
02-13-2019, 01:29 PM
I beg to differ, and think this is a misunderstanding of how product refinement works.

That’s usually a tedious and grinding process of continuous adaptation, making a lot of small changes in conjunction, rather than bold blowouts. And it’s a dance, often, with every two steps forward requiring one step sideways or back.

This is true of Apple (I happen to know a bit about that), even though in public presentation the attention is drawn towards the spectacular. The "breakthrough communication device" Jobs put center stage back then was the result of such a sysiphean task. Current macOS (and, hence, iOs and TV OS etc) are the result of slowly grinding away at it for 30+ years at least - I’d even say 50+ year, including its Unix and MACH roots.

And I believe it to be true in general. If a given blade has exceptional qualities in some aspects, improvement may do well to take that design into account and build on it. Yes, seemingly minor tweaks in handle shape, ply thickness, gluing process, material selection, tooling optimization, blade balance may be exactly this: the continouos grind at product improvement.

It may also be callous marketing, certainly. But don’t make the mistake that improvement, creativity, are like divine flahes of radical new insights. It is not. Everything is hard-fought and tedious.

Yes I totally agree that new ideas don't come by all of a sudden and what we enjoy right now(both phones and TT blades) are products of years of hard work and step-by-step progress. What I meant was that at least they could have tried some new materials or new layer-combinations (like new fiber and alternate position of carbon and wood ply). I understand that the market shows positive response to ALC and ZLC blades for a long time and launching similar products would guarantee profit. I just hope that butterfly could do more than just redesigning handles and modifying thickness. After all it is such a big name in the industry, and I wish to see it creates new trends in table tennis blades like it did with viscaria and TB alc.