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View Full Version : Forehand rubbers in China



Gugdigrazia
03-09-2019, 01:43 PM
Hi there! Since i am a big fan of chinese tt and i try to play with the chinese philosophy (e.g. Power from the ground, hit by your legs etc.), i would like to know what rubbers do medium/high level players use in china on the FH (i mean national, regional and provincial level) and what are the ones that can be used without booster.
Do they all use boosted hurricane/skyline or something else?

G_ZHANG
03-09-2019, 04:52 PM
Yes they all use Neo(factory boosted) Hurricane / Skyline

Mohammad Ahmed
03-09-2019, 07:46 PM
Yes they all use Neo(factory boosted) Hurricane / Skyline
you mean they dont boost their rubbers?

Lula
03-09-2019, 08:35 PM
I think he mean that they are boosted at the factory, and they do not do it themselfes.

I do not think power from the ground and legs are something specific for the chinese. Everyone does that in my opinion, it is just that the chinese is very good at. Proably because they start with proably unboosted hard china rubbers and the coaches focus alot on that. With hard china rubbers they do not get much help from the sponge so they really need to learn to use the body to get power in the ball. When they learn this i think they boost the rubber more to get somewhat more help.

So if you really want to learn power from the ground and the body i think you should start with unboosted china rubbers. It will be very hard to play with but proably good for your technique i think. If you just use the arm the ball will barely move forward.

I use short pimple on my forehand and want to have a pretty hard short pimple rubber so i can not cheat with the stroke and need to learn to move well. With a softer sponge i can proably play as good, but it is not as good for my technique because i proably could play wrong strokes and still get good results because of the help from the soft sponge.

Loopadoop
03-10-2019, 03:32 AM
Young kids being trained do not hit with power from the ground up. They get their power from technique.

Lula
03-10-2019, 07:12 AM
I would consider using the body and getting power from the ground as technique. They need to use the body to be able to get power. Even more if they use hard china rubbers.

RidTheKid
03-10-2019, 12:11 PM
"Power from the ground" is the technique.


Young kids being trained do not hit with power from the ground up. They get their power from technique.

Gugdigrazia
03-10-2019, 01:39 PM
Yes, i think that the power from the ground was developed by chinese and then many people all around the world starded using it.
I've been using H3 non Neo for 1 year and a half right now, i don't like tensor rubbers.
But also, for the right loop, i think you need also to use the hip, the shoulders and the wrist. The main difference between the asian style (and modern) topspin is that it incorporates the whole bode in the stroke, while old European technique says that you topspin by just snapping your forearm

RidTheKid
03-10-2019, 01:51 PM
European players also use the body rotation (hip) in their shots. Nothing new.


Yes, i think that the power from the ground was developed by chinese and then many people all around the world starded using it.
I've been using H3 non Neo for 1 year and a half right now, i don't like tensor rubbers.
But also, for the right loop, i think you need also to use the hip, the shoulders and the wrist. The main difference between the asian style (and modern) topspin is that it incorporates the whole bode in the stroke, while old European technique says that you topspin by just snapping your forearm

Gugdigrazia
03-10-2019, 04:04 PM
@RidTheKid keep calm bro, i just said "old", not actual technique. But right now there still are some differences btw european and Asian topspin. Europeans are taught to topspin "with the arm" and then add the rotation of the body as a consequence. So the main muscle used is the one of the shoulder. In asia kids are taught to not swing back the arm like in europe and topspin with the hip, so the main muscle used is the one of the hip that is more powerful and explosive than the shoulder.

RidTheKid
03-10-2019, 04:37 PM
Who said I wasn't calm? Why, are you so easily excited? :) There are certainly differences between chinese technique and European, but Europeans certainly play using the torque of the hips as well. It also has to do with getting in sync with your equipment, chinese rubbers are almost impossible to play with success if you don't incorporate the whole body. And "Asian" topspin isn't a good teminology to use, since japanese players don't have the same technique as the chinese.


@RidTheKid keep calm bro, i just said "old", not actual technique. But right now there still are some differences btw european and Asian topspin. Europeans are taught to topspin "with the arm" and then add the rotation of the body as a consequence. So the main muscle used is the one of the shoulder. In asia kids are taught to not swing back the arm like in europe and topspin with the hip, so the main muscle used is the one of the hip that is more powerful and explosive than the shoulder.

Schlaftablette
10-16-2020, 06:48 PM
So much misinformation on one side! ;)

Baal
10-16-2020, 07:15 PM
Because my wife is from China, I have traveled to China many times and have played and been coached there, and I have seen how kids are taught.

One thing to keep in mind is that the price of Japanese and European equipment in China is about the same as what we pay in the US in absolute terms. Given mean monthly incomes in China (much lower than in the US or Europe), this is very very expensive. So kids starting out will always use Chinese equipment, which is very much cheaper (because parents certainly don't know for quite awhile how good their kids will be, if they will remain interested, etc. etc., just like here). It is true that economic standards and lifestyles in China have increased a lot in recent years (and some people are super rich), but still, a middle class income in China is very low compared to the US or Germany or Japan.

Now Chinese rubbers have always been very hard and tacky by European/Japanese standards, and also quite heavy. This trend dates back to the 1960s at least. Kids learn on that stuff and their technique adapts to it naturally. Playing with anything like that is really different from the vast majority of stuff made by Butterfly or ESN. Now, once some of these kids get to be really good, enough to make it onto a city or provincial team then they are in most cases going to have some rubbers and blades supplied to them. Still, based on how they learned initially, there is a big preference for hard tacky DHS rubbers on the forehand side.

I noticed there that city level coaches who used Butterfly stuff (this is a medium sized Chinese city) had only one blade, often very ancient, and the rubber looked to be very much more worn than I would tolerate -- but again to get an idea of the relative cost for someone in China to purchase, say, Tenergy, multiply the costs in the west by about six. Not many people are going to change their rubber too often if a sheet costs nearly 500 USD! I'm well paid in my job and there is no way I would do that. Now, Chinese manufacturers have cloned all sorts of nice composite blades, and they play quite well, and they are cheap to buy there. Clones of rubbers not so much.

So people really need to keep this in mind. Part of the reason that Chinese players prefer they rubber they use is because they learn that way as a kid; now taking that basic formula and adding a really effective boosting to it, along with the pretty much perfect technique Chinese kids get hammered into them, and you see the amazing forehands that Chinese players have.

If course, even more important is that TT is one of China's national sports, talented kids are identified very early, introduced to the sport, and given great coaching, also 1.5 billion people, a lot of whom think TT is interesting.

Attitude
10-16-2020, 07:36 PM
Because my wife is from China, I have traveled to China many times and have played and been coached there, and I have seen how kids are taught.

One thing to keep in mind is that the price of Japanese and European equipment in China is about the same as what we pay in the US in absolute terms. Given mean monthly incomes in China (much lower than in the US or Europe), this is very very expensive. So kids starting out will always use Chinese equipment, which is very much cheaper (because parents certainly don't know for quite awhile how good their kids will be, if they will remain interested, etc. etc., just like here). It is true that economic standards and lifestyles in China have increased a lot in recent years (and some people are super rich), but still, a middle class income in China is very low compared to the US or Germany or Japan.

Now Chinese rubbers have always been very hard and tacky by European/Japanese standards, and also quite heavy. This trend dates back to the 1960s at least. Kids learn on that stuff and their technique adapts to it naturally. Playing with anything like that is really different from the vast majority of stuff made by Butterfly or ESN. Now, once some of these kids get to be really good, enough to make it onto a city or provincial team then they are in most cases going to have some rubbers and blades supplied to them. Still, based on how they learned initially, there is a big preference for hard tacky DHS rubbers on the forehand side.

I noticed there that city level coaches who used Butterfly stuff (this is a medium sized Chinese city) had only one blade, often very ancient, and the rubber looked to be very much more worn than I would tolerate -- but again to get an idea of the relative cost for someone in China to purchase, say, Tenergy, multiply the costs in the west by about six. Not many people are going to change their rubber too often if a sheet costs nearly 500 USD! I'm well paid in my job and there is no way I would do that. Now, Chinese manufacturers have cloned all sorts of nice composite blades, and they play quite well, and they are cheap to buy there. Clones of rubbers not so much.

So people really need to keep this in mind. Part of the reason that Chinese players prefer they rubber they use is because they learn that way as a kid; now taking that basic formula and adding a really effective boosting to it, along with the pretty much perfect technique Chinese kids get hammered into them, and you see the amazing forehands that Chinese players have.

If course, even more important is that TT is one of China's national sports, talented kids are identified very early, introduced to the sport, and given great coaching, also 1.5 billion people, a lot of whom think TT is interesting.

Big thanks for that insight. There was a lot of interesting information.

Der_Echte
10-16-2020, 09:32 PM
So much misinformation on one side! ;)

Schlaaaafffff---Tabbbb----Lettteeee

R U saying that someone, with no so many posts, who posted before you, is full of it? :D

IB66
10-17-2020, 06:58 AM
Because my wife is from China, I have traveled to China many times and have played and been coached there, and I have seen how kids are taught.

One thing to keep in mind is that the price of Japanese and European equipment in China is about the same as what we pay in the US in absolute terms. Given mean monthly incomes in China (much lower than in the US or Europe), this is very very expensive. So kids starting out will always use Chinese equipment, which is very much cheaper (because parents certainly don't know for quite awhile how good their kids will be, if they will remain interested, etc. etc., just like here). It is true that economic standards and lifestyles in China have increased a lot in recent years (and some people are super rich), but still, a middle class income in China is very low compared to the US or Germany or Japan.

Now Chinese rubbers have always been very hard and tacky by European/Japanese standards, and also quite heavy. This trend dates back to the 1960s at least. Kids learn on that stuff and their technique adapts to it naturally. Playing with anything like that is really different from the vast majority of stuff made by Butterfly or ESN. Now, once some of these kids get to be really good, enough to make it onto a city or provincial team then they are in most cases going to have some rubbers and blades supplied to them. Still, based on how they learned initially, there is a big preference for hard tacky DHS rubbers on the forehand side.

I noticed there that city level coaches who used Butterfly stuff (this is a medium sized Chinese city) had only one blade, often very ancient, and the rubber looked to be very much more worn than I would tolerate -- but again to get an idea of the relative cost for someone in China to purchase, say, Tenergy, multiply the costs in the west by about six. Not many people are going to change their rubber too often if a sheet costs nearly 500 USD! I'm well paid in my job and there is no way I would do that. Now, Chinese manufacturers have cloned all sorts of nice composite blades, and they play quite well, and they are cheap to buy there. Clones of rubbers not so much.

So people really need to keep this in mind. Part of the reason that Chinese players prefer they rubber they use is because they learn that way as a kid; now taking that basic formula and adding a really effective boosting to it, along with the pretty much perfect technique Chinese kids get hammered into them, and you see the amazing forehands that Chinese players have.

If course, even more important is that TT is one of China's national sports, talented kids are identified very early, introduced to the sport, and given great coaching, also 1.5 billion people, a lot of whom think TT is interesting.

Hi Baal,

a few questions!!!

Do the youngsters boost or have their rubbers boosted for them?? Or is this really started when at an older age??

So when learning they use the hard & tacky un-boosted rubbers on both wings to help improve technique and strength. Then when combined with the training methods, does the overall ‘Chinese’ coaching style produce a technique that is better placed to deal with a change to an ESN rubber/sponge combo compared to a ‘Euro’ style coached player changing to a tacky, hard sponge set up??? (I’m not asking which is better, just better suited to a change of rubber type!!!)

How common is the use of ESN/Spring Sponge rubbers on the BH side?? (In recent years mainly, as the Chinese economy grown, has this ‘wealth’ filtered down or is the communist system still as strong as ever and stops this happening?)

Has there been softer sponge versions of the Chinese rubbers available to the general TT playing population in China for longer than we are aware of, or is this only a recent change driven by the use of Ten 05 or similar by the top CNT players on the BH side??
For example this year has seen DHS Red 37 deg sponges coming thru.

If the ESN/Spring sponge rubbers were cheaper than the Tacky hard sponge Chinese rubbers, then just because of price, regardless of history, would the Chinese swap to ESN / Spring sponge rubbers?? I doubt it as I think they believe that these rubbers are inferior to their Tacky rubbers!!!

cheers!!

Baal
10-17-2020, 10:53 AM
Its been about three years since I was last in China. So I have no idea what really new rubbers are being used. They did have some softer Chinese rubbers. I have no idea if ESN rubbers would be more popular if cheaper there. Possibly among amateur players with good jobs. And maybe that is happening since I was there last. Even in 2010 you could buy Butterfly stuff in Beijing sporting goods stores, but the price was exactly the same as in the US. I bought a Photino blade there (I didn't like it). I did see people using Tenergy, but like I said, people will use that sheet until it is so old as to be completely unplayable. TT clothes are super cheap in China. I stock up when I can find my size.

As for how people live, the first time I ever went to China was in 2006, last time was in 2017. There is a huge and remarkable difference in standard of living for people in cities over that decade. You can see it in the clothes people wear, the cars they drive, the decor in restaurants, town infrastructure, highways and trains --- really in about every possible way. And people with money tend to flaunt it. In 2006 a BMW automobile in China was supe rare. In 2017 I saw lots of them. Make no mistake, some people in China are rich. But as soon as you get into rural areas or really small towns you see a shocking difference. There nothing much seems to have changed. And it is amazing how much agricultural labor is done by hand labor. It is also incredible how many people there are everywhere in China, including deep rural areas. We all know the population is ~5 times the US but until you go there and see it for yourself, it is hard to fully grasp what that means. It still amazes me.

I actually like traveling in China. The food is amazing, and there are incredible places to see. I particularly love Sichuan and Yunnan provinces (my wife is from Sichuan). I find Beijing interesting, I like the vibe of the place. I personally didn't like Shanghai or Shenzen or Wuhan very much. Hanzou was really nice. So was Qingdao and Dalian.

I'm hoping very much that the coronavirus situation and global politics will become more favorable to travel there again. I'm not sure when that will be.

vik
10-17-2020, 07:42 PM
Maybe you should look here .european topspin.Paul Drinkhall https://youtu.be/NRLTmazK7n4

Kuba Hajto
10-18-2020, 12:36 PM
Because my wife is from China, I have traveled to China many times and have played and been coached there, and I have seen how kids are taught.

One thing to keep in mind is that the price of Japanese and European equipment in China is about the same as what we pay in the US in absolute terms. Given mean monthly incomes in China (much lower than in the US or Europe), this is very very expensive. So kids starting out will always use Chinese equipment, which is very much cheaper (because parents certainly don't know for quite awhile how good their kids will be, if they will remain interested, etc. etc., just like here). It is true that economic standards and lifestyles in China have increased a lot in recent years (and some people are super rich), but still, a middle class income in China is very low compared to the US or Germany or Japan.

Now Chinese rubbers have always been very hard and tacky by European/Japanese standards, and also quite heavy. This trend dates back to the 1960s at least. Kids learn on that stuff and their technique adapts to it naturally. Playing with anything like that is really different from the vast majority of stuff made by Butterfly or ESN. Now, once some of these kids get to be really good, enough to make it onto a city or provincial team then they are in most cases going to have some rubbers and blades supplied to them. Still, based on how they learned initially, there is a big preference for hard tacky DHS rubbers on the forehand side.

I noticed there that city level coaches who used Butterfly stuff (this is a medium sized Chinese city) had only one blade, often very ancient, and the rubber looked to be very much more worn than I would tolerate -- but again to get an idea of the relative cost for someone in China to purchase, say, Tenergy, multiply the costs in the west by about six. Not many people are going to change their rubber too often if a sheet costs nearly 500 USD! I'm well paid in my job and there is no way I would do that. Now, Chinese manufacturers have cloned all sorts of nice composite blades, and they play quite well, and they are cheap to buy there. Clones of rubbers not so much.

So people really need to keep this in mind. Part of the reason that Chinese players prefer they rubber they use is because they learn that way as a kid; now taking that basic formula and adding a really effective boosting to it, along with the pretty much perfect technique Chinese kids get hammered into them, and you see the amazing forehands that Chinese players have.

If course, even more important is that TT is one of China's national sports, talented kids are identified very early, introduced to the sport, and given great coaching, also 1.5 billion people, a lot of whom think TT is interesting.

Maybe that is one of the ingredients to success. Economic situation forcing one not to think about gear giving you advantage and forcing you to use what you already have to it's fullest (emphasis on body here)...

Baal
10-18-2020, 09:58 PM
Maybe. But I'm of the opinion that if ITTF hypothetically made a rule that tacky hard rubbers are illegal, in a few years the Chinese would produce a Tenergy using world champion. They simply care more about TT than any other country.

UpSideDownCarl
10-19-2020, 02:25 AM
One thing about using legs, hips, weight transfer, core rotation:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzJms7RW02A

There is no racket or bat sport that does not use "power from the ground up." Even badminton does and that racket sport allows the players to use a lot of wrist and arm but they still use their whole body. This is just a fundamental principle about hitting a ball with a bat or a racket. If you took a sledge hammer with a 3 foot handle, you would do the same thing. If you used a felling ax (3 foot handle as well), you would also find the same thing. To swing the ax or hammer, you would use your whole body.

Next issue, I do really feel like Chinese skill in TT has at least something to do with how many people there are who are interested in the sport and how young they start to look for talent. By the time the top prospects are 12 years old they have so much top quality training under their belts. And the government is in total support of finding and developing talent. So, even though they have great coaches and great top players to watch and learn from, there is a whole system that causes them to be as good as they are.

It is also worth noting that this thread was woken up 2 days ago and it had been dormant for a year and a half (18 months) before it was woken up 2 days ago.

Attitude
10-19-2020, 07:23 AM
That is pretty much the full magic here you are describing.

In comparison to China, Germany for example does nearly nothing for this sport. We have cities who deny the usage of our sport halls in the vacation. On top of that, the amount of money to maintain them is disgustingly low. Scouting and supporting Talents is like nearly non existent. Propper coaches and Training facilities are damn rare. And it gets worse the smaller your region/city is. So in order to play decent table Tennis you literally have to move to bigger ones where the infrastructure is given.

It is a miracle that players like Timo Boll or Patrick Franziska could even develope such skill levels.

Tango K
10-19-2020, 11:22 AM
Well. I was a couple of times advised by a top England women player in the 80s, whose techniques were probably as old as European of the 60s :cool::cool::cool: And the first lengthy thing she told me was about “the base”. Everything is within it and it has to be stable so the whole body rotates from the base, through the hip up to create power. She also says this thing - different coaches will say it differently “base” “box” “ground” “hip” etc. But the idea is the same.

The thought that the world copies chinese “power from the ground” recently is likely a myth created by forummers :p

Disclaimer - I’m a H3 user, I prefer watching all-China matches to anything else. But I’m coached by Europeans :) (So you know my side of the debate)

EyyT
10-22-2020, 04:15 PM
If you want to literally copy the best chinese players, just buy a national H3NeO and boost it.