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TableTennis6708
03-09-2019, 08:53 PM
​I’m Looking for help picking out a blade and some rubber advice. About 10 years ago I got really serious and decided to buy a blade and rubbers. I was advised to start with the butterfly xstar.I chose this as my blade and I have really enjoyed the pips out my whole life so I went with a raystorm one side flarestorm other.


I have enjoyed the flarestorm more than the raystorm. The reason being it felt like a stiffer/hard rubber. I felt like the ball sunk more into the ray storm rubber. I'm thinking about sticking with flarestorm but I am open to thoughts. I also prefer thinner rubbers. I don’t remember for sure but I think they were both1.9mm.


As for the blade, I’m hoping for a blade with high control. I liked the Butterfly Star and the control/consistancy it gave. I am looking for something similar to that but with more of a stiff feeling when hitting the ball and also hoping it would give me more vibration feedback.

I would really love any help.

yogi_bear
03-09-2019, 08:58 PM
Dude, your font color is so hard to read.

TableTennis6708
03-10-2019, 01:04 AM
Is that better? Im brand new and have no idea what I am doing.

Lula
03-10-2019, 06:39 AM
So you are playing pips out on both side? How is your playing style? Want to win by killing the ball or control, deception more?

Gugdigrazia
03-10-2019, 12:42 PM
My coach uses tsp balsa series with c8 2.0mm long pips on bh. There are many blades from def- (2.5mm balsa) to off+ (8.5mm balsa). They are very useful and deceptive with long and short pips.

Gugdigrazia
03-10-2019, 12:46 PM
The 8.5mm is soft and stiff

TableTennis6708
03-10-2019, 08:53 PM
So you are playing pips out on both side? How is your playing style? Want to win by killing the ball or control, deception more?

You are correct, I am playing pips out on each side. I prefer to go on the offense immediately and win the point... I'm not a defensive player and I don't rely on spin much at all.

I dint have any problems with the Butterfly XStar but I'm hoping to make a few tweaks for the better. Such as more feedback/vibration to my hand and possibly more of a solid contact hard feeling. I'm not sure if this is possible. I don't know a lot.

I would love to try out several different blades to see what I like but I live in Kauai so I don't have that luxury. There are no stores on my island.

langel
03-10-2019, 09:06 PM
Palio TNT-1 would be a perfect choise. Hard and stiff. Bad for spin, perfect for block and smash. Killer all the way.

yogi_bear
03-11-2019, 01:00 AM
Mazunov maybe? If the weight will not bother you and you can control it.

lasta
03-11-2019, 01:33 AM
Hello from a fellow pips lover.

No offense to Gugdigrazia, but balsa blades will not bring you the solid/hard feeling. Soft core blades feel "hollow" and it will be like hitting with a matchbox, the exact opposite of what you want.

Most modern blades are made with soft wood cores (ie kiri/balsa/ayous) so getting a solid dense contact is hard to find. A few suggestions below:

Classic 7-plies (6.6mm+ limba ayous ala clipper, samsonov force, challenge speed, SK7, andro timber etc): Classic pips choice, no matter how much others you try, these blades simply feel good. Medium feel, not too hard, but dense on hard impact and plenty of reinforced feeling. Even though it uses soft ayous, the extra layers and uniform impact feel mitigates most of the hollow feel.

Antique woods (DHS 08, and pretty much all 70s/80s Chinese blades): very thick (7mm+) all basswood and/or basswood-meranti mix. Extremely heavy, but more solid, dense, and stiff than the Clipper styles. Not as bouncy on low impact, but pretty much unlimited power on full effort shots. Heavy as in 100g+, sometimes 120g, so be aware. Excellent and substantial feel, I haven't found anything better yet.

A 7-ply hinoki might also get you what you want, but make sure you find one with enough thickness. The wood is similar in hardness/stiffness to basswood but bouncier. Don't let the soft wood fool you. Hard, dense impact sensation is dependent on much more than surface material, a thick 7-ply of uniform soft material will feel much more solid than an Ebony surface blade with kiri core.

OSP ultimate and the BBC Ghost might also interest you. They have soft outer plies with a hard mahogany core. But I haven't tried those and not sure if they might be too thin.

Things I recommend staying away from:
-Anything with a balsa or kiri core.
-Hardwood surface blades (ebenholz, rosewood, etc):Amplifies the "matchbox" hollow feel, worst yet if combined with a balsa/kiri core. They feel hard and crisp on bounce, but once you start smashing, they feel soft and hollow.
-Thick core blades: again, amplifies the hollow feel. Go for atleast 7 thinner layers.
-Composites: fast, stiff, hard and light. Sounds perfect for short pips, but composites also unanimously have "vibration dampening" characteristics. None of them feel as clear and crisp as all woods. Less hollow than hardwood surface blades, but still hollow.

langel
03-11-2019, 08:06 AM
Hello from a fellow pips lover.

No offense to Gugdigrazia, but balsa blades will not bring you the solid/hard feeling. Soft core blades feel "hollow" and it will be like hitting with a matchbox, the exact opposite of what you want.

Most modern blades are made with soft wood cores (ie kiri/balsa/ayous) so getting a solid dense contact is hard to find. A few suggestions below:

Classic 7-plies (6.6mm+ limba ayous ala clipper, samsonov force, challenge speed, SK7, andro timber etc): Classic pips choice, no matter how much others you try, these blades simply feel good. Medium feel, not too hard, but dense on hard impact and plenty of reinforced feeling. Even though it uses soft ayous, the extra layers and uniform impact feel mitigates most of the hollow feel.

Antique woods (DHS 08, and pretty much all 70s/80s Chinese blades): very thick (7mm+) all basswood and/or basswood-meranti mix. Extremely heavy, but more solid, dense, and stiff than the Clipper styles. Not as bouncy on low impact, but pretty much unlimited power on full effort shots. Heavy as in 100g+, sometimes 120g, so be aware. Excellent and substantial feel, I haven't found anything better yet.

A 7-ply hinoki might also get you what you want, but make sure you find one with enough thickness. The wood is similar in hardness/stiffness to basswood but bouncier. Don't let the soft wood fool you. Hard, dense impact sensation is dependent on much more than surface material, a thick 7-ply of uniform soft material will feel much more solid than an Ebony surface blade with kiri core.

OSP ultimate and the BBC Ghost might also interest you. They have soft outer plies with a hard mahogany core. But I haven't tried those and not sure if they might be too thin.

Things I recommend staying away from:
-Anything with a balsa or kiri core.
-Hardwood surface blades (ebenholz, rosewood, etc):Amplifies the "matchbox" hollow feel, worst yet if combined with a balsa/kiri core. They feel hard and crisp on bounce, but once you start smashing, they feel soft and hollow.
-Thick core blades: again, amplifies the hollow feel. Go for atleast 7 thinner layers.
-Composites: fast, stiff, hard and light. Sounds perfect for short pips, but composites also unanimously have "vibration dampening" characteristics. None of them feel as clear and crisp as all woods. Less hollow than hardwood surface blades, but still hollow.

Excellent explanation!

The problem is that in the modern TT world relity its getting more and more difficult to judge blade properties by comosition only. There are blades that are not expected to feel hollow, but they feel. For example Palio V1 - 7wood + 4carbon. As hollow as an Empty matchbox with softer hits, but firm and crisp with stronger hits. And its expected to be as stiff as a frypan, but its not, its mid flexy. Not good for pips.
Xiom Vega Tour at first glance should be considered to be one of those composites that are still hollow. Nothing like that. Maybe because of the katsura core it feels perfectly clear, no hollow at all. Though its not hard and not very stiff, I would highly recomend it for pips, but will not - its too good for that and its bests are in other field.
Palio TNT-1 is a very cheap blade, 7 wood + 2 thick carbon, hard and stiff, expected to be still hollow, but in fact is with the most crisp sound and feel all through the strength hitting range. Heavy, but not too much around 93 gr, thick, but not too much at 7 mm. Rock solid for blocks and smashes. Not good enough for anything but pips.

Lula
03-11-2019, 11:03 AM
I agree with some of the above that you need a fast somewhat stiff blade. With double short pips you can almost only win by speed so you need a fast blade to be able to kill the ball. A pretty low arc is also good because you want to play close to the table. Direct is also good i think so the ball leaves the racket fast.

I use short pimple on my forehand. I started out with slower Wood blades. Then faster Wood blades like Clipper and mazunov. Both were fine. I think Clipper were better for my inverted side. With double pimples mazunov May work well. I Did notice that i felt that the arc were very Low so i Did not have much Martin for error. I have read that you should use Wooden blades for short pimples But i Do not think the material matter so much. I then used Timo boll spirit that worked good, But wanted something faster. So now i am using Timo boll zlc and i am happy with it. I almost feel that for the short pimple play the blade can Not be to fast, as faster the better. But i need control for my inverted bh. Maybe you need control aswell. I coach some kids. I have out short pimple on two of them. One of them have a slow blade so it is hard to kill the ball with it. Proably good to start with to learn the technique But if you already have good strokes i recommend a fast blade.

TableTennis6708
03-12-2019, 02:13 AM
Hello from a fellow pips lover.

No offense to Gugdigrazia, but balsa blades will not bring you the solid/hard feeling. Soft core blades feel "hollow" and it will be like hitting with a matchbox, the exact opposite of what you want.

Most modern blades are made with soft wood cores (ie kiri/balsa/ayous) so getting a solid dense contact is hard to find. A few suggestions below:

Classic 7-plies (6.6mm+ limba ayous ala clipper, samsonov force, challenge speed, SK7, andro timber etc): Classic pips choice, no matter how much others you try, these blades simply feel good. Medium feel, not too hard, but dense on hard impact and plenty of reinforced feeling. Even though it uses soft ayous, the extra layers and uniform impact feel mitigates most of the hollow feel.

Antique woods (DHS 08, and pretty much all 70s/80s Chinese blades): very thick (7mm+) all basswood and/or basswood-meranti mix. Extremely heavy, but more solid, dense, and stiff than the Clipper styles. Not as bouncy on low impact, but pretty much unlimited power on full effort shots. Heavy as in 100g+, sometimes 120g, so be aware. Excellent and substantial feel, I haven't found anything better yet.

A 7-ply hinoki might also get you what you want, but make sure you find one with enough thickness. The wood is similar in hardness/stiffness to basswood but bouncier. Don't let the soft wood fool you. Hard, dense impact sensation is dependent on much more than surface material, a thick 7-ply of uniform soft material will feel much more solid than an Ebony surface blade with kiri core.

OSP ultimate and the BBC Ghost might also interest you. They have soft outer plies with a hard mahogany core. But I haven't tried those and not sure if they might be too thin.

Things I recommend staying away from:
-Anything with a balsa or kiri core.
-Hardwood surface blades (ebenholz, rosewood, etc):Amplifies the "matchbox" hollow feel, worst yet if combined with a balsa/kiri core. They feel hard and crisp on bounce, but once you start smashing, they feel soft and hollow.
-Thick core blades: again, amplifies the hollow feel. Go for atleast 7 thinner layers.
-Composites: fast, stiff, hard and light. Sounds perfect for short pips, but composites also unanimously have "vibration dampening" characteristics. None of them feel as clear and crisp as all woods. Less hollow than hardwood surface blades, but still hollow.


Thanks for all the amazing and valuable info. Have you used any of the blades above. If I'm coming from previously using the Butterfly X Star would one of them be a better blade to go to...meaning not as big of a skill level jump. Going from a X star to the fastest blade available may not be smart. I'm not saying these are the fastest or anything but I wasn't sure how much my game would be hindered trying to bite off more than I could handle. I have played quite a bit through the years but I'm sure everyone here would classify me as a beginner. The plus side is I have at least used a real blade for years and may want to make a step forward.

lasta
03-12-2019, 02:31 AM
Hi, yes I tried all examples, except for the OSP and BBC blades mentioned last. Recommend you get a classic 7-ply. Stiga Clipper, Butterfly SK7, Samsonov Force (Black Edition), Adidas Challenge Speed or Strike wood 7..the list goes on. They play more similar than different, my advice is to pick the cheapest one. Play for a year, and IF you feel you need more speed/hardness/stiffness you can move up to the hinoki/basswood blades.

Make sure its close to 6.7mm which appears to be the sweetspot amongst manufacturers. A small change in thickness will make a big difference in feel.

BTW, the Adidas Strike Wood 7 and Challenge Speed seems to be going for clear out prices and tend to be better made than most other brands. If you can't find them, Clipper and Samsonov Force has nothing but good reviews. Just a thought :).

yogi_bear
03-12-2019, 04:44 AM
Challenge speed is the only adidas blade i kept because it was really good and the handle is so comfy

TableTennis6708
03-12-2019, 05:11 AM
Challenge speed is the only adidas blade i kept because it was really good and the handle is so comfy


You don't happen to want to sell yours do you. ;) I have been looking for it for a couple hours since "Lasta" recommend it but I can't find one.

lasta
03-12-2019, 06:01 AM
Sorry, my info on Adidas may be a few years old haha. If you can't find it, just look for a Clipper/Samsonov/SK7/Andro CS7 Tour/Joola Viva. None of them are particularly expensive.

Gugdigrazia
03-12-2019, 06:12 AM
Hello from a fellow pips lover.

No offense to Gugdigrazia, but balsa blades will not bring you the solid/hard feeling. Soft core blades feel "hollow" and it will be like hitting with a matchbox, the exact opposite of what you want.

Most modern blades are made with soft wood cores (ie kiri/balsa/ayous) so getting a solid dense contact is hard to find. A few suggestions below:

Classic 7-plies (6.6mm+ limba ayous ala clipper, samsonov force, challenge speed, SK7, andro timber etc): Classic pips choice, no matter how much others you try, these blades simply feel good. Medium feel, not too hard, but dense on hard impact and plenty of reinforced feeling. Even though it uses soft ayous, the extra layers and uniform impact feel mitigates most of the hollow feel.

Antique woods (DHS 08, and pretty much all 70s/80s Chinese blades): very thick (7mm+) all basswood and/or basswood-meranti mix. Extremely heavy, but more solid, dense, and stiff than the Clipper styles. Not as bouncy on low impact, but pretty much unlimited power on full effort shots. Heavy as in 100g+, sometimes 120g, so be aware. Excellent and substantial feel, I haven't found anything better yet.

A 7-ply hinoki might also get you what you want, but make sure you find one with enough thickness. The wood is similar in hardness/stiffness to basswood but bouncier. Don't let the soft wood fool you. Hard, dense impact sensation is dependent on much more than surface material, a thick 7-ply of uniform soft material will feel much more solid than an Ebony surface blade with kiri core.

OSP ultimate and the BBC Ghost might also interest you. They have soft outer plies with a hard mahogany core. But I haven't tried those and not sure if they might be too thin.

Things I recommend staying away from:
-Anything with a balsa or kiri core.
-Hardwood surface blades (ebenholz, rosewood, etc):Amplifies the "matchbox" hollow feel, worst yet if combined with a balsa/kiri core. They feel hard and crisp on bounce, but once you start smashing, they feel soft and hollow.
-Thick core blades: again, amplifies the hollow feel. Go for atleast 7 thinner layers.
-Composites: fast, stiff, hard and light. Sounds perfect for short pips, but composites also unanimously have "vibration dampening" characteristics. None of them feel as clear and crisp as all woods. Less hollow than hardwood surface blades, but still hollow.
thanks for your explanation. I'm not expert with pips-out rubbers, i tried the tsp balsa 8.5 and i didn't like it, but my coach is using it to block and attack with LP and i thougt that it'd work well even with short pips attacking style. Sorry for my error

lasta
03-12-2019, 06:24 AM
I should be the one apologizing haha.

Some people like the springy matchbox feel. But since he/she wants a solid hard impact, it probably wouldn't be a good match.

My perfect blade would be a ceramic tile, so take my recommendations with a bag of salt haha.

yogi_bear
03-12-2019, 10:45 AM
Nah i am keeping it for good. Adidas gave it to me and it is one of the first produced Challenge Speed before it hit the market. I think you can still find some online.

QUOTE=TableTennis6708;264869]You don't happen to want to sell yours do you. ;) I have been looking for it for a couple hours since "Lasta" recommend it but I can't find one. [/QUOTE]

TableTennis6708
03-15-2019, 04:02 AM
Sorry, my info on Adidas may be a few years old haha. If you can't find it, just look for a Clipper/Samsonov/SK7/Andro CS7 Tour/Joola Viva. None of them are particularly expensive.


Do you have any thoughts on Speedy PO? Im looking at the reviews and stats on it at revspin and I feel like it may be something I want to try out. I'm looking for a harder rubber with good pace, control...I'm not worried about a ton of spin at the moment. I fell like this is the point where everyone judges me but I want a 1.7mm rubber. I like the thinner much more than the thicker. I tried to go up to 1.9mm last year and it drove me crazy!!!

Thank for all the help so far!!

I ordered the clipper yesterday :)

lasta
03-15-2019, 05:20 AM
Haven't tried Speedy PO, so can't help you.

But, Igorponger posted a nice table here: http://mytabletennis.net/FORUM/topic67167_page1.html#1058260. I haven't tried most of the pips listed, but from the ones I have, the judgement is about right. Nice empirical comparison of speed, spin, hardness, but control is completely subjective.

Do not trust the tables on Revspin, I've never seen a more biased list.

The Spectol Blue might interested you. I'm using the Spinpips Blue version (same sponge) and place it as medium-hard, relatively fast, good control. But fellow member Lula hated it, so YMMV.

TableTennis6708
03-16-2019, 02:23 AM
Haven't tried Speedy PO, so can't help you.

But, Igorponger posted a nice table here: http://mytabletennis.net/FORUM/topic67167_page1.html#1058260 (http://mytabletennis.net/FORUM/topic67167_page1.html#1058260). I haven't tried most of the pips listed, but from the ones I have, the judgement is about right. Nice empirical comparison of speed, spin, hardness, but control is completely subjective.

Do not trust the tables on Revspin, I've never seen a more biased list.

The Spectol Blue might interested you. I'm using the Spinpips Blue version (same sponge) and place it as medium-hard, relatively fast, good control. But fellow member Lula hated it, so YMMV.


Thanks sooooo much for all the helpful advice and sources. Seems how you have been so helpful I have one other question. :) I'm looking for a stiff rubber with a low throw angle. (Pips out obviously) Do you have any thoughts. Maybe you or someone knows handy sites that display stats on different rubber throw angles.

lasta
03-16-2019, 05:00 AM
Hard, low throw? I thought your Flarestorm fit those descriptions. Throw angle is dependent on grip+speed, something with low grip and high bounce should do it. Personally I prefer high grip pips, so haven't tried many in that area.

Most short pips tend to be soft, so your choices are limited. The Spectol Blue still comes to mind (medium hard sponge).

Lula
03-16-2019, 08:48 PM
How Do you play? Do not know about thickness of the sponge. But i think if you play more blocking and counterattack like the old penhold chinese a thinner sponge can work okay. I also think they have more control. I think atleast that i prefer thicker sponge, have not Tried thinner sponge. I think thicker sponge suits better if you play more aggressive yourself, easier to create spin at the first loop and is proably easier to use if you are a somewhat tall Guy like me and need to stand not superclose to the table. Also more effect with thinner sponge. Atleast if the short pimple have little grip.

Getting more and more used to the spinpips blue so can smash harder now than the first training But i still prefer Haifu dolphin. Think dolphin had much more punch to it, better if you want to be able to kill the ball. But the control is so-so. If you want ro get more spin and base your game around control or need a rubber that helps you to put the ball on the table i think a rubber like spinpips blue would work well. So i think it works well for some thing and not so well for other things. Like all rubbers. Softer pimple rubbers suit control more But can play harder with harder short pimples if you have good technique i think. Feels like spinpips blue bottoms out for me.

I Will proably use this for a while then look for a rubber similar to dolphin. In my opinion spinpips blue are not hard at all, But Maybe i am used to dolphin that is very hard from What i have Heard. So i Will proably also try to find a rubber harder than spinpips blue.

I was very surprised have different the spinpips blue felt compared to dolphin. So it seems, atleast for me diffixult to read about the rubber. Need to try it to be able to make up your mind about it. Proably the same for you.

Lula
03-16-2019, 08:52 PM
Haven't tried Speedy PO, so can't help you.

But, Igorponger posted a nice table here: http://mytabletennis.net/FORUM/topic67167_page1.html#1058260. I haven't tried most of the pips listed, but from the ones I have, the judgement is about right. Nice empirical comparison of speed, spin, hardness, but control is completely subjective.

Do not trust the tables on Revspin, I've never seen a more biased list.

The Spectol Blue might interested you. I'm using the Spinpips Blue version (same sponge) and place it as medium-hard, relatively fast, good control. But fellow member Lula hated it, so YMMV.

What others pips have you used? I have Tried rakza po, 802 40, a victas short pimple, dolphin and spinpips blue. Or i have hit with them atleast. Find that the feel of spinpips blue very odd and hard to make powerful shots compare to the above. What are your opinions?

Pretty funny i wrote that i hated it haha, you helped me with answers and then you actually use the same rubber i Do not really like. Strange that We can feel so different about it.

lasta
03-17-2019, 03:45 PM
Hi Lula, in the past I've mostly used Chinese pips including most variations of 802 and 802-40 (my longest running rubber). Others include: Legend 105, 889, 889-2, 651, 652, Spectol Speed, Waran, Hexer Pips, Superspinpips 21, Spinpips Red, Spinpips Blue, Dolphin, and for a period 802/802-40 topsheet over many different sponges.

Back in the speedglue age, 802-40 was perfect, but we are long past that now (boosting does not feel the same). I got the Blue because I wanted something harder than the Red but not quite as hard as the Dolphin, and for me its so far very good. As mentioned before, the rubber on different blades will feel very different, and I can understand and relate to the "dull" feeling you are currently experiencing.

Lula
03-17-2019, 06:32 PM
Hi Lula, in the past I've mostly used Chinese pips including most variations of 802 and 802-40 (my longest running rubber). Others include: Legend 105, 889, 889-2, 651, 652, Spectol Speed, Waran, Hexer Pips, Superspinpips 21, Spinpips Red, Spinpips Blue, Dolphin, and for a period 802/802-40 topsheet over many different sponges.

Back in the speedglue age, 802-40 was perfect, but we are long past that now (boosting does not feel the same). I got the Blue because I wanted something harder than the Red but not quite as hard as the Dolphin, and for me its so far very good. As mentioned before, the rubber on different blades will feel very different, and I can understand and relate to the "dull" feeling you are currently experiencing.

I think i will use spinpips for a while. I am very much forced to use the body more to be able to kill the ball, so maybe this can be good for my technique. Or am i just stupid to change something that have worked really well for the last ten years? maybe my forehand can become even better. Then i will try 802-40 from a friend, then try 802 if 40 is to soft and then try some victas short pimple or spectol speed.

Tried victas 102, vera soft sponge but much easier to kill the ball compared to spinpips blue. The sponge of victas felt more firm. So the sponge hardness is apparently not the main issue? why can i get a more dolphin, short pimple feel with the softer victas compared to the harder spinpips?

I do not think it has anything to do with my blade. If i try in example the victas rubber on my blade it would work very well. Maybe better on a wooden blade, but i think ZLC is hard and fast enough. Not as much feel, but i think have enough feel on my own.