Thoughts regarding blades

BlueSkies · Jun 3, 2019

TLDR

How fast is fast enough? I try different blades but just get more confused. Any input to where I should start again?

_______________

Hi,

I know this topic has been discussed to death, but I will post it anyway.

I realize I am a big time EJ, but I'm fine with that. As long as I can control it at least. Been doing motorsport, so I still think table tennis isn't that expensive.

I have been playing in a club on and off since 2002. My last official match was 10 years ago. I will start competing again this fall, so I would like to get my equipment somewhat sorted until then.

I am fully aware that I can get somewhat used to any blade, but I would like to know how fast is too fast?

In my club we trade and sell blades quite a lot, so I've been able to try a lot without paying that much. For example I have played for at least a month with blades like HL5,

Hurricane Hao,

Stiga Allround, Offensive, Azalea, Butterfly

Viscaria,

Primorac Off-, Donic Persson Powerplay, Waldner Ultra Carbon, Yasaka Max wood, Dynamix and a whole lot more the last few years

Of course I've tried a lot of rubbers, not everything but lots. Chinese, Japanese and European. For the moment I like Rakza 7 and Ventus Speed.

I play an offensivve style close to midrange from the table. For my level I have a decent serve, good blocks, good backhand and a lack consistency in my forehand.

In sweden in the old system I was Class 3. Now I play equal to players with 1100 pionts and on a good day I can beat players with 1400. I realize it doesn't translate, but maybe it helps.

I feel lost. I have tried a lot, but don't know where to start from. Which blade should I stick with?
All of them feels somewhat good. They have their own moments. The plan is to try and stick with one blade for the better part of a year.

Do you have any input?

Now I play with Nittaku Acoustic Inner Carbon and Rakza 7 2.0mm on both sides.

RidTheKid · Jun 3, 2019

Stick to one setup and get good coaching.

chintanmashroo · Jun 3, 2019

Try a darker speed 90 with T05, you will come to know the definition of fast. [emoji14]

You should stick to one blade (decide on defensive allround and offensive) where:

Defensive blades are used to chop till you get a perfect chance to play offensive

Allround blades can do everything, where you can easily loop, flat hit, chop etc.

Offensive blades, you can do top spin on top spin with speed (meant for good technique players)

Rubbers you should change incremental way

Go with mark V or Rigan for start, then move to Vega Japan or Vega Pro then move to Rakza 7 and then move to MX-P, T05, rhyzer 48, depending on how fast you can consistently hit top-spins

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6010 using Tapatalk

Der_Echte · Jun 3, 2019

BS,

Keep trying out some more gear when you can and discover what modern rubber with which sponge softness suits what you are trying to do the most. Keep whatever you finally select from this category and use it a year plus. You will adapt real good in the direction you should.

There are so many advanced things about TT that one must do better that have very little to do with equipment, but getting equipment that makes it easier to control the output for your desired play style with the performance in the majority of stroke situations for you is the middle of the road sound approach.

Other paths are also possible, but what I described is used by many and works. Many of your countrymen support this way. Don't over think, discover your middle of road rubber and sponge softness, stick to it for a spell and go from there.

trumpet_guy · Jun 3, 2019

Hi BlueSkies,
I am less experienced than many on this forum, but my experience is that my sweet spot seems to be an Azalea Offensive with somewhere around a 43degree to 45degree inverted rubber. I am currently using a Nittaku Acoustic with Fastarc G-1 (2.0mm) on both sides, which is also nice, but a heavier setup than I am used to.

My feeling for you is that if your Acoustic Inner with Rakza 7 feels good to play with, then don't change it. It's already a very good setup. If you do want to change, don't go with faster equipment, go with same or a little slower.

Best wishes,
Tim

FruitLoop · Jun 4, 2019

It might be helpful to ask how slow is too slow as well as how fast is too fast.

Do you have trouble hitting the ball past people? If the answer is no then forget about speed and pick the one that feels the best. The most comfortable in the hand and most confidence inspiring with the feel of the ball.

If you do have trouble with speed but have good control and spin generation, then by all means try a composite blade. Too fast is when you aren't confident of putting every shot on the table and so hamper your technique. You should feel comfortable really getting after the ball. You have tried lots already so it's difficult to give advice beyond this. Really you should know what felt good and what didn't already. Pick the one that feels good and that you won't change next week because you are an incurable EJ. If that's a Timo Boll ALC get that one. Nittaku Acoustic. Go for it. But stick with it.

Acoustic inner and Rakza 7 is a great set up. If you feel no reason to change it and like it just go for it. Don't feel there is anything magically better out there. There isn't. You could be top 10 in the world rankings with that set up.

NextLevel · Jun 4, 2019

I would say start here - it is one variable amongst many but it lets you get a feel on what you like and what you dislike. Rather than buying and testing blades indiscriminately, this measurement lets you get a handle on what kind of vibration you like in your blades.

http://www.ttbla.de/

Usually, too fast has something to do with the feeling of vibration combined with the linear response for the style you like to play. I know some people who find the blades I use way too vibrational and I likewise find their blades to be bricks. But we all play essentially similar styles so I would argue that it is more about what you feel about how the setup responds to you than the objective merits of the blade.

The other thing is that if you play at a high enough level, more points are earned by denying the first attack than by playing strong balls on offense. The latter is relatively easy to do with almost any blade, but denying the first attack requires confidence in your ability to consistently touch the ball short on serve return. This tends to put a limit on how fast a blade you can use while maintaining the feeling to steer or drop the ball short. Of course, with hours, you can adjust to almost anything but those of us without the hours just use what fits.

Konrad Bak · Jun 4, 2019

Osp virtuoso minus and Rhyzer 43 but not max sponge

yogi_bear · Jun 4, 2019

With the speed of the newer rubbers nowadays, you do not need to go past off- or just off not off+ unless your level is really that high.

perham · Jun 4, 2019

I have some doubts about this chart. According to this Rossi Emotion is slower than Yinhe N9s by a lot. In my experience that's not true at all. Rossi Emotion was one of the faster blades I've tried, and Yinhe N9s was All+ or Off- at best. Now, it's true that Rossi Emotion vibrates a lot more than N9s, but I don't think this has a lot to do with the speed, but rather on stiffness. In higher gears, Rossi Emotion is kind of a beast, while N9s is slower.

NextLevel said:
I would say start here - it is one variable amongst many but it lets you get a feel on what you like and what you dislike. Rather than buying and testing blades indiscriminately, this measurement lets you get a handle on what kind of vibration you like in your blades.

http://www.ttbla.de/

Usually, too fast has something to do with the feeling of vibration combined with the linear response for the style you like to play. I know some people who find the blades I use way too vibrational and I likewise find their blades to be bricks. But we all play essentially similar styles so I would argue that it is more about what you feel about how the setup responds to you than the objective merits of the blade.

The other thing is that if you play at a high enough level, more points are earned by denying the first attack than by playing strong balls on offense. The latter is relatively easy to do with almost any blade, but denying the first attack requires confidence in your ability to consistently touch the ball short on serve return. This tends to put a limit on how fast a blade you can use while maintaining the feeling to steer or drop the ball short. Of course, with hours, you can adjust to almost anything but those of us without the hours just use what fits.

BlueSkies · Jun 4, 2019

Thank you for all the great replys.

All input is welcome.

Get coaching is always sound advice.
Since august I am head coach in a club here in Stockholm, and I been practicing a lot with my colleagues. And I have for sure improved.

Mark V is a great rubber. As I have been playing for 16 years I would like to think I am "beyond" it, at least without speed glue.

A lot of you have given good adivce. Feels like the "forum gods" of Der Echte and his likes at least sort of agree with me that is not super easy to find equipment that just feels right in any given moment.

Maybe time to remove the metaphorical dust from my Primorac Off- and just "go nuts". It's obviously a great blade and not to fast.

(I have been eyeing the Donic Waldner Offensive Limited. It looks nice, but I don't think I really need it. )

RidTheKid · Jun 4, 2019

You could go with the forever popular Viscaria

BlueSkies said:
Thank you for all the great replys.

All input is welcome.

Get coaching is always sound advice.
Since august I am head coach in a club here in Stockholm, and I been practicing a lot with my colleagues. And I have for sure improved.

Mark V is a great rubber. As I have been playing for 16 years I would like to think I am "beyond" it, at least without speed glue.

A lot of you have given good adivce. Feels like the "forum gods" of Der Echte and his likes at least sort of agree with me that is not super easy to find equipment that just feels right in any given moment.

Maybe time to remove the metaphorical dust from my Primorac Off- and just "go nuts". It's obviously a great blade and not to fast.

(I have been eyeing the Donic Waldner Offensive Limited. It looks nice, but I don't think I really need it. )

UpSideDownCarl · Jun 4, 2019

Der's comments about being flexible with trying stuff out and finding things that suit you are valuable. I am sure NextLevel would agree. Testing things to see how they suit different aspects of your game is worth doing if you have the means.

As you start realizing that many things suit you, settling on something is fine. And you don't need to be stuck with it.

NextLevel's point about the speed of the equipment and the balance between short game and the power of the attacks is also valuable. So is his chart on blade frequency/stiffness.

One more detail on that note. And there is no one right answer for any of this.

Once you are in the offensive rally phase of play, here are some things to understand about faster vs slower equipment:

Faster setups give less arc to the ball even when you have a lot of spin. This means your shots will be able to land deeper and be more lethal on a shot by shot basis. But, it also means that it is harder to have the ball arc and land near the net. And if you can arc the ball to land closer to the net, you can get much wider angles. So, faster blades will cut down your angle a little. And slower blades will allow you more uncomfortable placement choices and higher angles.

But it is worth understanding neither is better in itself. For some, very fast equipment actually works. Based on your information about rating in Sweden, you are at a level where you can use pretty much anything and adjust to the things that your equipment choice helps you do well.

In the end, the consideration may be the balance between fast enough on the offensive rallies to work for you while still giving you enough control to have an edge in the short game and the ability to use wide angles to get your opponent out of position.

For a lot of pro players that seems to be something around the speed of a Viscaria or TB ALC. Which, truthfully, is not so fast. But there are some pros who use blades like the Petr Korbel which is slower than a Viscaria and faster than the Primorac Off- but with similar flex and feel as the Primorac. And then there are a few pros who do use faster equipment.

You might consider watching the play of some high rated players who use faster setups and see if that resembles how you play or aspects of the game that you do well. Because, slower will limit you in one way and open other doors. And a faster setup will limit you in different ways but it will also open other doors.

Your technique is clearly well developed enough to decide a speed range that feels optimal to how you like to play and also, to feel the things that make you happy when you use them.

And it is worth not understimating the impact of using something that simply makes you happy. Every time I hit a really nice loop, I think, "man, I love this racket."

And, on some level, that does actually help you play better.

mart1nandersson · Jun 4, 2019

FYI: 1400 Swedish ranking points is probably a bit north of 2000 USATT. Most of the 12-15 year old (elite) kids playing our national youth champs are between 1400-1800.

NextLevel · Jun 4, 2019

perham said:
I have some doubts about this chart. According to this Rossi Emotion is slower than Yinhe N9s by a lot. In my experience that's not true at all. Rossi Emotion was one of the faster blades I've tried, and Yinhe N9s was All+ or Off- at best. Now, it's true that Rossi Emotion vibrates a lot more than N9s, but I don't think this has a lot to do with the speed, but rather on stiffness. In higher gears, Rossi Emotion is kind of a beast, while N9s is slower.

The frequency measure is not a measure of speed but a measure of stiffness. The specific blade tested also impacts the results as wood and glue are not super consistent materials. So you can be very right.

The point is that usually, when I call a blade too slow or too fast, I am usually speaking not about the bounce but my feeling or desire for vibration. They are related but not perfectly. Ttgearlab has a different system where he focuses on values relative to a Stiga Allround Classic. But I think the above chart does a good job of giving you a threshold at which a blade has too much or too little feeling for you.

NextLevel · Jun 4, 2019

BlueSkies said:
Thank you for all the great replys.

All input is welcome.

Get coaching is always sound advice.
Since august I am head coach in a club here in Stockholm, and I been practicing a lot with my colleagues. And I have for sure improved.

Mark V is a great rubber. As I have been playing for 16 years I would like to think I am "beyond" it, at least without speed glue.

A lot of you have given good adivce. Feels like the "forum gods" of Der Echte and his likes at least sort of agree with me that is not super easy to find equipment that just feels right in any given moment.

Maybe time to remove the metaphorical dust from my Primorac Off- and just "go nuts". It's obviously a great blade and not to fast.

(I have been eyeing the Donic Waldner Offensive Limited. It looks nice, but I don't think I really need it. )

Since you coach you are obviously a good player. So I think what you are looking for is a justification to use a blade you are comfortable with. I would say that don't doubt your feeling. Children can adapt to anything but once you have developed a certain feeling, it is hard to change. But sometimes it can just be that you switched to a blade that is too far from the feeling you are looking for. I can play reasonably well with anything under 1350Hz, even a carbon blade. But above that I lose the feedback I am looking for. It is usually better to use faster rubber and keep the feeling. But you can use a faster blade up to the level you don't lose the feeling. It is easy to measure dominant frequency with a cell phone. But once you get a good idea of when a blade is losing the feeling for you, you can get a faster blade within your feeling range.

BlueSkies · Jun 4, 2019

NextLevel said:
Since you coach you are obviously a good player. So I think what you are looking for is a justification to use a blade you are comfortable with. I would say that don't doubt your feeling. Children can adapt to anything but once you have developed a certain feeling, it is hard to change. But sometimes it can just be that you switched to a blade that is too far from the feeling you are looking for. I can play reasonably well with anything under 1350Hz, even a carbon blade. But above that I lose the feedback I am looking for. It is usually better to use faster rubber and keep the feeling. But you can use a faster blade up to the level you don't lose the feeling. It is easy to measure dominant frequency with a cell phone. But once you get a good idea of when a blade is losing the feeling for you, you can get a faster blade within your feeling range.

I totally get your point. But I would like to believe that is not the case. I'm not by any standard well versed in psychology, but I do understand that the human brain has a lot of internal bias. Both in the form of cognitive bias which makes it hard to be rational when seeing patterns, but also confirmation bias and a lot more.

I made this thread to hear other people put forward their points and their "philosophy" so I could understand more.

If I just wanted to justify a flashy blade that would easy. And I think a lot of people does do that.

I will absolutely start measuring the frequency of different blades. Thank you!

BlueSkies · Jun 4, 2019

UpSideDownCarl said:
Der's comments about being flexible with trying stuff out and finding things that suit you are valuable. I am sure NextLevel would agree. Testing things to see how they suit different aspects of your game is worth doing if you have the means.

As you start realizing that many things suit you, settling on something is fine. And you don't need to be stuck with it.

NextLevel's point about the speed of the equipment and the balance between short game and the power of the attacks is also valuable. So is his chart on blade frequency/speed.

One more detail on that note. And there is no one right answer for any of this.

Once you are in the offensive rally phase of play, here are some things to understand about faster vs slower equipment:

Faster setups give less arc to the ball even when you have a lot of spin. This means your shots will be able to land deeper and be more lethal on a shot by shot basis. But, it also means that it is harder to have the ball arc and land near the net. And if you can arc the ball to land closer to the net, you can get much wider angles. So, faster blades will cut down your angle a little. And slower blades will allow you more uncomfortable placement choices and higher angles.

But it is worth understanding neither is better in itself. For some, very fast equipment actually works. Based on your information about rating in Sweden, you are at a level where you can use pretty much anything and adjust to the things that your equipment choice helps you do well.

In the end, the consideration may be the balance between fast enough on the offensive rallies to work for you while still giving you enough control to have an edge in the short game and the ability to use wide angles to get your opponent out of position.

For a lot of pro players that seems to be something around the speed of a Viscaria or TB ALC. Which, truthfully, is not so fast. But there are some pros who use blades like the Petr Korbel which is slower than a Viscaria and faster than the Primorac Off- but with similar flex and feel as the Primorac. And then there are a few pros who do use faster equipment.

You might consider watching the play of some high rated players who use faster setups and see if that resembles how you play or aspects of the game that you do well. Because, slower will limit you in one way and open other doors. And a faster setup will limit you in different ways but it will also open other doors.

Your technique is clearly well developed enough to decide a speed range that feels optimal to how you like to play and also, to feel the things that make you happy when you use them.

And it is worth not understimating the impact of using something that simply makes you happy. Every time I hit a really nice loop, I think, "man, I love this racket." And, on some level, that does actually help you play better.

A lot of food for thought. I will have to read through a few times. Thanks for a nuanced answer!

Thoughts regarding blades

Member

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

This user has been banned.

Well-Known Member

Member

Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Member

Member

Similar threads