The benefits of a vertical topspin against a backspin ball – for amateurs

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Hello to everybody,

This talk is for amateur players not for pros who have strong technical skills and they can handle any ball.
I am trying to understand the benefits of a vertical topspin against a backspin ball because I am having a lot of problems to handle the return of it.
The scenario is the one below: I serve with backspin, my opponent makes a push so I get a ball with backspin too and I attack the ball with a strong vertical top spin at almost 90 degrees sometimes. The problem is that this shot generates a ball with a very high arc and my opponent has a lot of options to return it back (topspin, punch, smash) even if that ball goes with that unusual, accelerated topspin.
Ideally speaking, I should topspin the ball and the ball should not go with that high arc; instead it should just pass over the net but to do that I should not put so much power in my shots but that will generate another problem for me, the one where I cannot lift the ball with the backspin so the ball will go into the net.
By reading a lot of articles, everybody will tell you to attack any long ball no matter what spin the ball has; does it have topspin? No problem, then loop it or topspin it. Does it have backspin? No problem, do a vertical topspin against it at a certain degree based on its backspin.
My question is which are the benefits of a vertical topspin on a backspin ball, for an amateur, since the stroke will create a ball with a high arc on the opponent`s side that can be attacked pretty easy due to its height? I have the impression of exposing myself to risks for free by using this shot.
The safe option will be to push the backspin ball back with backspin; at least it will go much lower (a pro will be able to attack it of course – see the scenario of a defender vs. an attacker but we do not talk about pros :)).



Thank you
 
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Hello to everybody,

This talk is for amateur players not for pros who have strong technical skills and they can handle any ball.
I am trying to understand the benefits of a vertical topspin against a backspin ball because I am having a lot of problems to handle the return of it.
The scenario is the one below: I serve with backspin, my opponent makes a push so I get a ball with backspin too and I attack the ball with a strong vertical top spin at almost 90 degrees sometimes. The problem is that this shot generates a ball with a very high arc and my opponent has a lot of options to return it back (topspin, punch, smash) even if that ball goes with that unusual, accelerated topspin.
Ideally speaking, I should topspin the ball and the ball should not go with that high arc; instead it should just pass over the net but to do that I should not put so much power in my shots but that will generate another problem for me, the one where I cannot lift the ball with the backspin so the ball will go into the net.
By reading a lot of articles, everybody will tell you to attack any long ball no matter what spin the ball has; does it have topspin? No problem, then loop it or topspin it. Does it have backspin? No problem, do a vertical topspin against it at a certain degree based on its backspin.
My question is which are the benefits of a vertical topspin on a backspin ball, for an amateur, since the stroke will create a ball with a high arc on the opponent`s side that can be attacked pretty easy due to its height? I have the impression of exposing myself to risks for free by using this shot.
The safe option will be to push the backspin ball back with backspin; at least it will go much lower (a pro will be able to attack it of course – see the scenario of a defender vs. an attacker but we do not talk about pros :)).



Thank you

If the backspin ball is looped with a high arc and the loop has A LOT of spin, it is not so easy for the opponent to handle unless they are at a decently high level to counterloop that off the bounce. So, if you are lifting the ball and it does not have much spin, that is not the shot that is being recommended. If you are looping up with heavy HEAVY spin, that ball will take the backspin on the push and add to it. If you do that right, the result should be a loop with double or triple the amount of spin a normal loop vs topspin would have. If that is not what you are doing, then you are likely just lifting the ball and that is a sitting duck shot.

But why don't you loop the backspin forward? You can loop backspin forward instead of up, especially if you contact at the top of the bounce or just before the top of the bounce. Doing that gives you a lot of spin and a lot of forward drive. And if you mix looping forward with arcing the ball more, so that your shots are not always the same, that would give your opponents more randomness to need to adjust to.

There are always many ways to respond to any shot. You can also drive loop backspin if you hit the ball at the top of the bounce.

And, also, your placement of any shot will help determine whether it is easy or awkward for your opponent to handle your shot. Aim for awkward spots like, with a higher shot, it is harder to handle on BH. And it is harder to handle on the BH side of the switching point unless your opponent has good enough footwork to turn to his FH on those higher shots. High shots wide to the BH are usually fine unless your opponent is like Jorgen Persson. :) But high shots wide the FH are usually much easier to move to and handle. So where you place a shot is sometimes more important than what kind of shot you actually use.
 
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Different options.
More nospin in your serve and you do not need to open against backspin at all.
loop more forward. If the ball get very high it proably are not so much backspin and therefore you need to loop more forward.
Vary the placement of your high safe opening loop. Need to get up to a level higher than the majority here if your opponent will kill the ball successfully the majority of the times with a counterloop on your opening loop if they do not know where it is coming.
 
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Different options.
More nospin in your serve and you do not need to open against backspin at all.
loop more forward. If the ball get very high it proably are not so much backspin and therefore you need to loop more forward.
Vary the placement of your high safe opening loop. Need to get up to a level higher than the majority here if your opponent will kill the ball successfully the majority of the times with a counterloop on your opening loop if they do not know where it is coming.

Excellent point. It is interesting how, serves with very little spin give you good setups for your third ball. Especially if you show heavier serves often enough to keep your opponent on his toes.
 
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I think a slower topspin opener can be an effective shot, but it needs to be both very spinny and well placed. If you just slap it in the middle of the table or right into your opponents forehand, it can be easily attacked. And btw, are you sure that your topspin openers are really spinny? Make sure you get good feedback on this. This can be improved. A lot. It is really fun to open up on half-long balls when you are in position. Great stuff to bend well down below the table and open up with good spin and length. Just wish I had good footwork to more often get into those positions ;)

The other option is to return it with a more forward shot, eg. not so vertical one. This can also work well on most backspin balls, except for maybe the heaviest backspin balls or the shortest ones.
 
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Sometimes, a slow, very spinny topspin is the best option... it is the safest attack and often, a very difficult ball to counter attack, unless opponent times it just right.

Many junior players are trained over and over how to handle fast topspin exchanges. Many of these become adults. Trying to play medium or fast loops vs this crowd is playing right into their hands.

Making the ball go slow and heavy tricks their timing two ways... initial too slow, then ball jumps at them low and dips. Tough ball for junior to cope with... goes totally against what they train.

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It’s possible that as a beginner you are simply lifting the backspin balls but not adding any additional spin. Make sure that you have a good amount of hip/torso rotation when you loop so that you are generating a decent amount of spin and power. If your bat speed is fast enough then the ball will clear the net without as much upward vertical motion (you will be able to swing slightly more forward instead).


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Hello to everybody,

This talk is for amateur players not for pros who have strong technical skills and they can handle any ball.
I am trying to understand the benefits of a vertical topspin against a backspin ball because I am having a lot of problems to handle the return of it.
The scenario is the one below: I serve with backspin, my opponent makes a push so I get a ball with backspin too and I attack the ball with a strong vertical top spin at almost 90 degrees sometimes. The problem is that this shot generates a ball with a very high arc and my opponent has a lot of options to return it back (topspin, punch, smash) even if that ball goes with that unusual, accelerated topspin.
Ideally speaking, I should topspin the ball and the ball should not go with that high arc; instead it should just pass over the net but to do that I should not put so much power in my shots but that will generate another problem for me, the one where I cannot lift the ball with the backspin so the ball will go into the net.
By reading a lot of articles, everybody will tell you to attack any long ball no matter what spin the ball has; does it have topspin? No problem, then loop it or topspin it. Does it have backspin? No problem, do a vertical topspin against it at a certain degree based on its backspin.
My question is which are the benefits of a vertical topspin on a backspin ball, for an amateur, since the stroke will create a ball with a high arc on the opponent`s side that can be attacked pretty easy due to its height? I have the impression of exposing myself to risks for free by using this shot.
The safe option will be to push the backspin ball back with backspin; at least it will go much lower (a pro will be able to attack it of course – see the scenario of a defender vs. an attacker but we do not talk about pros :)).



Thank you

You have written a lot and the problem with talking about table tennis is that it is a sport that we play and talking about it sometimes requires you to either see what is being discussed or to understand it at a similar or correct level compared to who you are talking to.

A spinny loop against backspin is described as a vertical stroke but it really isn't unless the backspin is really heavy like a chop. And then how the stroke is generated and what it aims to do are easy to misunderstand until you actually perform the stroke correctly repeatedly.

The main thing that is missing IMO in your discussion is an understanding of when a ball has true backspin and what happens when you loop a ball with heavy backspin. Spin tends to affect the timing and contact point of shots so heavy spin makes it harder to control shots at the level where that spin is not usually seen. So the goal is to get your spin level to where it makes you easily a better player than most of your opponents.

The "vertical" slow spin is really about the amount of rotation you can put on the ball. If you put enough spin, it will cause an opponent who is not used to that level of spin issues. Developing the technique to put good spin on balls takes time and practice. But if you have a coach who can guide you, just work through it and be patient. When you learn to loop with good spin, you have crossed a threshold where certain players can never beat you again.
 
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Great topic, thanks for posting this. I am dealing with exactly the same issue, and I appreciate the sage advice. These are very helpful replies.

In my case, what I have found as a learner is that the more I practice this shot, with BH or FH, the better I get. Not surprising, I suppose. Six months ago, I had exactly the same 'problem' as the OP describes. But slowly and surely, I am naturally starting to be able to vary the shot, sometimes with high arc and more spin, sometimes faster and low over the net. And as I practice, I find that my contact is getting thinner and my racket speed is getting faster, so the loops are getting spinnier, harder to handle, and the spin pulls them down on the table, so they are much safer. The thin, fast contact also means that my shot tends to overpower the spin already on the ball, so even if I misjudge the incoming spin, I often still get a good shot landing on the table. Of course, I still have a long way to go, but after months of practice, it is encouraging to start to see some payoff. But the whole thing is taking much longer than I expected. (Something I am finding about all table tennis skills.)

So my advice is to keep practicing it--following the advice above--and let it naturally improve. And it will improve, although perhaps not as quickly as you would like.
 
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if your loop is really spinny and well-placed, it would be not easy at all for even very good amateur players, even if it's a bit high and slow. Placement is not only BH or FH or middle, but also the length. If the ball lands near the end of the table, it'd be very difficult to punch or smash it.
The benefits of a vertical topspin:
- it's safer against heavy backspin, less demanding, much greater margin for error compared to a loopdrive against heavy backspin
- it's slower so you have more time to get back to ready position to hit the next shot, probably the winner
 
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If the backspin ball is looped with a high arc and the loop has A LOT of spin, it is not so easy for the opponent to handle unless they are at a decently high level to counterloop that off the bounce.

Exactly.

I'm guessing the OP has thought of this and have thought "This high arching ball will get killed on me." but hasn't actually done it all that often. Otherwise he would see the usefulness in this shot.

For years I've had & used what I call a power loop (more aggressive, flatter & faster loop) and a soft loop (slower, safer, high arch, spinier). I almost exclusively have used a soft loop for years & years on service return. On the intermediate level, it puts you in good position in the point. It's certainly better than trying to power loop a long serve and missing a high % of shots giving away free points.

So this works. Now that being said, as you face higher & higher skilled players and ones who can put away a higher ball, you'll have to focus on keeping it lower. But those situations in my experience are few & far between.

The high arch slow spiny loop is not an easy ball at all for them to block and keep on the table without sending it long.

Soft Loop vs serve:
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Like several of you mentioned, are you actually generating very high level of spin? I am not trying to open the can of worms but I did not see any mention of equipment. Certainly your equipment will play a role in how much spin you are able to generate. All of the suggestions are correct, it just depends on the scenario, a vid will definitely help narrow down the different suggestions to something very specific.
 
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I appreciate the advice received from all of you. I will try to adjust the angle by closing the racket, probably around 60 degrees.Also, I will try to vary the spin, to serve with less backspin and add no-spin to serves.
 
Try this exercise i am teaching on the video and apply it to your own.
1. Wait for the ball go down.
2. Check knees and body rotation.
3. Apply brush contact on the ball.
4. Follow through

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6diZVBQcIGw
 
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Try this exercise i am teaching on the video and apply it to your own.
1. Wait for the ball go down.
2. Check knees and body rotation.
3. Apply brush contact on the ball.
4. Follow through

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6diZVBQcIGw

Excellent video. The balls are returned by me with even a higher arc since I am overwriting the backspin; yours do not have backspin but it is a perfect example of how high the ball is returned to my opponent in terms of height.
 
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