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perham
06-19-2019, 04:07 PM
I’m trying diversify my pendulum serve, and I’m having trouble keeping my topspin serve short. When I do the last moment shoulder pull, either I get an ok top-side spin serve that goes half long or long, or I get a short serve that is almost no spin. What am I doing wrong? Is it even possible to do this?

burhanayan
06-19-2019, 04:23 PM
I wonder the exact answer too.

I manage to do top-side spin pendulum serve with placing the ball opponent's short forehand(I assume you use both same hand), then on second jump barely hits opponent's long backand side. The perfect ones without horizontal hitting or with less horizontal hitting.

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langel
06-19-2019, 04:33 PM
Serve top spin along the diagonals from corner to corner, first bounce closer to you, soft and spinny, keep it low, and even not so short, the ball will either sink close to the edge, or even double bounce.

Der_Echte
06-19-2019, 04:42 PM
The trick is in your impact and bat angle.

Gotta be soft. I like brushing the back of ball pulling to side and up. Gotta have a real soft grip or it goes long. First bounce location important.

Experiment. If your stroke is long, good luck. Timing will be tough. Elbow needs to be on your side up against body before impact.

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FruitLoop
06-19-2019, 11:11 PM
Need to see video to help more but generally the brush has to be very thin to keep topspin pendulum serves short. Especially to forehand.

Lula
06-20-2019, 05:52 AM
Do not use the shoulder. Use wrist or and forearm. Do not need massive spin, just more than the opponent thinks. Get the first bouncy closer to the net and the serve Will be short.

langel
06-20-2019, 07:00 AM
Do not use the shoulder. Use wrist or and forearm. Do not need massive spin, just more than the opponent thinks. Get the first bouncy closer to the net and the serve Will be short.

I doubt that with top spin, even with a very soft touch, you'll get a short serve if the first bounce is close to the net.
With top spin closer to the net first bounce means deeper second one.
With top spin the distance between the two bounces is longer than with under spin /provided same force applied/.
With top spin the ball is faster than with under spin, and the second bounce is lower.
Because of that the advantage of the top spin serve is not exactly in the very short placement, which in general is difficult to be achieved, but anyway if you want to, you have to make the first bounce not closer to the net, but the opposite, and along the diagonals, trying to make the ball not to lieve the table after the seconf bounce and to keep the ball as low as possible.
Otherwise, with less or no spin, even if short, the ball can be easily attacked and flipped strong. In this case the only chance is the opponent to missread the ball.

RidTheKid
06-20-2019, 08:40 AM
You "doubt"? You mean you actually don't know. I can say for sure that it's exactly the way Lula explains. First bounce should be close to the net to keep the ball short, even on top spin serves. The brush on the contact has to be very thin, and almost zero sponge activation.


I doubt that with top spin, even with a very soft touch, you'll get a short serve if the first bounce is close to the net.
With top spin closer to the net first bounce means deeper second one.
With top spin the distance between the two bounces is longer than with under spin /provided same force applied/.
With top spin the ball is faster than with under spin, and the second bounce is lower.
Because of that the advantage of the top spin serve is not exactly in the very short placement, which in general is difficult to be achieved, but anyway if you want to, you have to make the first bounce not closer to the net, but the opposite, and along the diagonals, trying to make the ball not to lieve the table after the seconf bounce and to keep the ball as low as possible.
Otherwise, with less or no spin, even if short, the ball can be easily attacked and flipped strong. In this case the only chance is the opponent to missread the ball.

Der_Echte
06-20-2019, 09:07 AM
Your first bounce location on your side of table will vary based on the trajectory of the ball you hit, which will largely be determined by the height at which you impact the ball.

For my kind of high impact point to make a relatively straight path, I land the ball middle depth to a little past that, I get a short tight serve on my underspin.

If I impact the ball lower, like at net height or a little lower, then send the ball a little upwards, my first bounce will be closer to the net, much closer. I can do that serve, but am lower consistency than my normal higher impact point.

Getting the impact right for a short bounce on a topspin serve is much, much more tricky with your touch and impact. The same considerations for ball trajectory apply. Landing the ball precisely on your target landing zone is much more critical than the underspin serve.

For me, it is much easier to use the higher impact point. I need to train the lower impact point as a variation, it also has advantages if I can master that impact and timing.

whocarez
06-20-2019, 09:26 AM
You "doubt"? You mean you actually don't know. I can say for sure that it's exactly the way Lula explains. First bounce should be close to the net to keep the ball short, even on top spin serves. Not exaxtly right, the wording was "closer to the net" and this is sometimes the solution. If the first bounce is very close to the net, then sure, the serve may become very short but also very slow giving your opponent valuable time. Worst case, it might bounce just a bit too close to the net on the other side, just a bit too high and become very easy to attack. My goal is to aim for the middle or 2/3 into the table for a little faster serve that just barely double bounces. Getting my opponent to doubt if the serve becomes half-long is always nice.

yogi_bear
06-20-2019, 09:54 AM
Need to develop more contact and feel as i always suggest.

RidTheKid
06-20-2019, 10:49 AM
Sure if we talk strategy, I was only talking about the technique to get the serve to be short on top spin serves.



Not exaxtly right, the wording was "closer to the net" and this is sometimes the solution. If the first bounce is very close to the net, then sure, the serve may become very short but also very slow giving your opponent valuable time. Worst case, it might bounce just a bit too close to the net on the other side, just a bit too high and become very easy to attack. My goal is to aim for the middle or 2/3 into the table for a little faster serve that just barely double bounces. Getting my opponent to doubt if the serve becomes half-long is always nice.

whocarez
06-20-2019, 10:52 AM
Sure if we talk strategy, I was only talking about the technique to get the serve to be short on top spin serves.So was I, there is not always just a a single solution.

RidTheKid
06-20-2019, 10:56 AM
Where I come from the definition of "short serve" is a serve with a double bounce (or more) on the table.


So was I, there is not always just a a single solution.

whocarez
06-20-2019, 10:58 AM
Where I come from the definition of "short serve" is a serve with a double bounce (or more) on the table.Yes? Your point being?

RidTheKid
06-20-2019, 11:03 AM
Your aim was to make a serve that barely double bounces you wrote. OP's questions wasn't regarding tactical choices but technique how to keep the serve short (double bounce), not "barely double bounce because that is not considered a short serve. Not semantics.


Yes? Your point being?

whocarez
06-20-2019, 11:09 AM
Your aim was to make a serve that barely double bounces you wrote. OP's questions wasn't regarding tactical choices but technique how to keep the serve short (double bounce), not "barely double bounce because that is not considered a short serve. Not semantics.Bullshit, a barely double bounce is still a double bounce and considered a short serve. You can change the world 'barely', with 'just' or whatever the word you want. It bounces twice, the second bounce being on the table.

Question: to make a short serve, must the first bounce be as close as possible to the net on your side?

RidTheKid
06-20-2019, 11:36 AM
Bullshit, a barely double bounce is still a double bounce and considered a short serve. You can change the world 'barely', with 'just' or whatever the word you want. It bounces twice, the second bounce being on the table.

Question: to make a short serve, must the first bounce be as close as possible to the net on your side?Yes to make a short serve the bounce on your side should be close to the net.

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suds79
06-20-2019, 02:29 PM
It's not my best serve but a useful one and I can pull it off.

When I do this serve I just try to focus on making the 1st bounce middle of the table or close to the net and it's okay if this serve is slow. If the serve bounces close to your end line it'll be next to impossible from not having it go long. So that 1st bounce has to be close to the net. This is a slow serve for me.

Even if it's not the spinniest short side/topspin serve I have. You could call this serve of mine dead to slight side/top, I'm really less concerned with how much spin is on it rather more so is it short, is it slow (like a backspin serve is) and can I get lucky in that they're tricked and push it. I suppose the more spin will happen the more you finely graze it.

Side note. Always be ready to counter a flick when doing this in case they're not fooled at all.

FruitLoop
06-20-2019, 05:58 PM
Bullshit, a barely double bounce is still a double bounce and considered a short serve. You can change the world 'barely', with 'just' or whatever the word you want. It bounces twice, the second bounce being on the table.

Question: to make a short serve, must the first bounce be as close as possible to the net on your side?

We call that half long.

whocarez
06-20-2019, 06:49 PM
We call that half long.
Really? My impression is that a half-long ball is loopable and bounces only once on the opposite half, although it just drops off the end of the table. That's what we call it here.

https://tabletennisdailyacademy.com/videos/half-long/ The description here is very good, IMHO.

tropical
06-20-2019, 07:04 PM
Half long can be 2X or 1X. Short serve can bounce twice or 3 X. It is kind of easy to serve HL no or less spin but difficult to do variations with consistency for intermediate level. I can't do it consistently enough.

NextLevel
06-20-2019, 07:09 PM
Guys, a lot of these arguments can be resolved by posting video and focusing on actual serves not arguing forever.

DerEchte has some of the best topspin short serves you may ever face so listen to the man.

I use short topspin with sidespin. For me the serve can go longer since topspin wants to go forward. but the first thing is to get good spin and less speed. While the spin will make the ball want to go forward, the spin will also keep the ball from being hit fast so you will get a slower serve and people just assume that a slow short serve is backspin below a certain level (or until they play you enough times to refuse to be fooled again). So for this serve, heavy spin is your friend if you use sidespin.

The other thing is to not make the spin so heavy that you hit the ball with too much forward motion. I try to serve the topspin by coming up round the side rather than coming up behind the ball. That said, hitting behind the ball can work if you have good touch and you can serve heavy backspin with similar motion. The spin may not be heavy but if the opponent thinks it is not topspin, that is all you need.

The serve will usually be double bounce short or half long and not extremely short because of the topspin kick. Usually the first bounce may be closer to your end line and further from the net than it would be for a backspin serve.

But in general when serving short, place less focus on where the first bounce is your side and more focus on the opponents side and it should be close to the net on the opponent's side if you want the topspin serve to stay short unless it has strong sidespin. If you manage to get the ball close to the net on the opponents side, where the first bounce is on your side is an interesting footnote but mostly unimportant.

whocarez
06-20-2019, 07:18 PM
Half long can be 2X or 1X. Short serve can bounce twice or 3 X. It is kind of easy to serve HL no or less spin but difficult to do variations with consistency for intermediate level. I can't do it consistently enough.Ok, I would never call a double bounce serve half-long so I go with this tabletennisdailyacademy description: "a half long ball is one which bounces once and then drops just off the end of the table"

In my book a half long is 1X and always loopable, although in some cases it can be quite difficult. Anything double bounce or more is a short serve. That is how I and people I play with look at it.

Anyway, interesting to note. I wasn't aware that there may be several different definitions. But back to this thread, would surely be nice to see some good short topspin servers and the technique behind it. I need to improve those aswell :)

langel
06-20-2019, 08:01 PM
Guys, a lot of these arguments can be resolved by posting video and focusing on actual serves not arguing forever.

DerEchte has some of the best topspin short serves you may ever face so listen to the man.

I use short topspin with sidespin. For me the serve can go longer since topspin wants to go forward. but the first thing is to get good spin and less speed. While the spin will make the ball want to go forward, the spin will also keep the ball from being hit fast so you will get a slower serve and people just assume that a slow short serve is backspin below a certain level (or until they play you enough times to refuse to be fooled again). So for this serve, heavy spin is your friend if you use sidespin.

The other thing is to not make the spin so heavy that you hit the ball with too much forward motion. I try to serve the topspin by coming up round the side rather than coming up behind the ball. That said, hitting behind the ball can work if you have good touch and you can serve heavy backspin with similar motion. The spin may not be heavy but if the opponent thinks it is not topspin, that is all you need.

The serve will usually be double bounce short or half long and not extremely short because of the topspin kick. Usually the first bounce may be closer to your end line and further from the net than it would be for a backspin serve.

But in general when serving short, place less focus on where the first bounce is your side and more focus on the opponents side and it should be close to the net on the opponent's side if you want the topspin serve to stay short unless it has strong sidespin. If you manage to get the ball close to the net on the opponents side, where the first bounce is on your side is an interesting footnote but mostly unimportant.

Exactly.
At least we have here One /1/ player with enough expertise to make the right interpretation.
/Well, Der_Echte is all above :)/.

tropical
06-20-2019, 08:38 PM
Ok, I would never call a double bounce serve half-long so I go with this tabletennisdailyacademy description: "a half long ball is one which bounces once and then drops just off the end of the table"

In my book a half long is 1X and always loopable, although in some cases it can be quite difficult. Anything double bounce or more is a short serve. That is how I and people I play with look at it.



Anyway, interesting to note. I wasn't aware that there may be several different definitions. But back to this thread, would surely be nice to see some good short topspin servers and the technique behind it. I need to improve those aswell :)

I don't pay much attention to the definition. To me any serves with enough spins, low, and close to the edge after 1st bounce is HL or maybe HS/L serve. One must be a very good player to serve or return effectively such serve. Many people define it just for the purpose of teaching and training which I find not useful at all.

whocarez
06-20-2019, 09:03 PM
I don't pay much attention to the definition. To me any serves with enough spins, low, and close to the edge after 1st bounce is HL or maybe HS/L serve. One must be a very good player to serve or return effectively such serve. Many people define it just for the purpose of teaching and training which I find not useful at all.Your choice. I think it is a good definition, both for teaching, training and to avoid confusion in forums like this. I find it also useful for clarity: double bounce or more being a short serve, is very simple and clear. I have spent a lot of time on becoming better on looping half long serves, this includes reading when the serve may be "just" long. This has given me very good results. Not being a very good player at all, maybe intermediate at best.

So, we can agree do disagree. I guess that from now I will possibly write double bounce short or single bounce half-long to avoid discussions like this.

Lula
06-20-2019, 09:05 PM
I feel that the OP asked about how to do a short topspin serve, not what the defintion is.

langel
06-20-2019, 09:20 PM
I feel that the OP asked about how to do a short topspin serve, not what the defintion is.

Yes, and I said that I doubt that it can be done in the way you described.
If you can, show it. I'll be glad to get that too.
You're the coach, we are the trainee.

whocarez
06-20-2019, 09:27 PM
I think that Lula actually described in #6 on how to serve this kind of serve pretty well. It was the essence of this serve in two sentences. But sure thing, I do not mind to see some examples if possible.

Lula
06-21-2019, 04:36 AM
I just meant that i Do not think We give him any real help if we start to discuss the definition instead how to Do as he asks for.

I also think the discussion about What is a short serve is interesting. Like someone Else stated short serves that are very short are actually not very good. Better if they bounce a little longer so the second bounce is just on the table or a little out of the table. Harder for the opponent to make a decision, to play short and you Do not need so much spin to fool them.

The topspin needed are also not really so much. Just enough so the opponent thinks it is less topspin or thinks that they are some other spin in the serve. To try to serve to win points today straight off the serve is difficult.

Haha, i do not think We should focus to much on who is a coach or not. I feel the longer i am playing or coaching tabletennis the more i feel that everything is pretty subjective, there are not many rigth or wrongs because players Do stuff well But sometimes very differently. The technique and strokes Do not need to be perfect, many Times it is proably better to become the best with how you play at the moment than change everything. And serving especially is barely anything i teach because i feel it is mostly about practice to learn for yourself. Alot of touch and training behing good serves.

ttmonster
06-21-2019, 05:48 AM
DerEchte has some of the best topspin short serves you may ever face so listen to the man.



.. for somebody who has been on the receiving end of quite a few and so far has managed to flick one or two so far .. I have to wholeheartedly support this statement.. I wanted to jump in with two cents then saw der's post and kept my mouth shut seeing nobody is paying any attention to his advice...

Lula
06-21-2019, 07:52 AM
.. for somebody who has been on the receiving end of quite a few and so far has managed to flick one or two so far .. I have to wholeheartedly support this statement.. I wanted to jump in with two cents then saw der's post and kept my mouth shut seeing nobody is paying any attention to his advice...

I Will be so rude and say that they are not so good if you read them correct and see that it is topspin. But it must be alot of spin if you read topspin and still miss.

Der_Echte
06-21-2019, 04:43 PM
DerEchte has some of the (EDIT) not so impressive looking (END EDIT) topspin short serves you may ever face so listen to the man.

I use short topspin with sidespin... So for this serve, heavy spin is your friend if you use sidespin.

The other thing is to not make the spin so heavy that you hit the ball with too much forward motion. I try to serve the topspin by coming up round the side rather than coming up behind the ball. That said, hitting behind the ball can work if you have good touch and you can serve heavy backspin with similar motion. The spin may not be heavy but if the opponent thinks it is not topspin, that is all you need.

The serve will usually be double bounce short or half long and not extremely short because of the topspin kick. Usually the first bounce may be closer to your end line and further from the net than it would be for a backspin serve.

But in general when serving short, place less focus on where the first bounce is your side and more focus on the opponents side and it should be close to the net on the opponent's side if you want the topspin serve to stay short unless it has strong sidespin. If you manage to get the ball close to the net on the opponents side, where the first bounce is on your side is an interesting footnote but mostly unimportant.


I am just a monkey making too much dirty sound (end Manu Chao mode)

NL's short heavy side is a good variation to have. You need a wide variety of serves. Some opponents are somehow just too good vs some of you main money making serves. Some people struggle vs heavy side.

NL's concept of hitting behind the ball is right... it is tough. I chicken out (USA expression for losing courage) and play it safer... I impact ball behind and on the side for safety and consistency. One day I will put in the time to use a different impact. For now, I play it high percentage.

As much as I try to get it short, if my spin is heavier, I get more half long... which isn't too bad, it is also a tough ball. The main thing for me is to make that serve SNEEKY... meaning to surprise or deceive opponent on the spin. You do that, and you can get away with it being longer, often that works in your favor if opponent mis-reads and is too aggressive. I like using aggression against opponent. That allows me to win points without taking too much risk. I play high risk on offense enough as it is already, I need balance in my game.

Like NL is saying in the bold letters, I like using this concept. If you focus too much on exactly where the first bounce lands, you lose too much quality of your serve. (At least it works that way for me) As I am about to impact the ball, I am only concerned with keeping loose grip, good timing, and visualize the ball going over the net low and first bounce on other side being with in the first 20% of the table by the net (that is 1 foot for USA folks). If I manage to do that, I tend to have higher success. Since I am a monkey with ADD, I do not accomplish that as much as I should.

If you manage to get a vid on me doing my attempted 50/50 short topspin serve in a match, the serve itself does not look very impressive. There is not a ton of spin on it and the ball is more than millimeters over the net. What one should look at in any match vid of mine is what serves I had been using and when I decide to pull out the short topspin. That should tell a story.

Still, my goal on a short or half long topspin serve isn't to over power opponent on spin, I want to slide that serve in there like a spiked drink - make it so opponent is not realizing what happened, then let it hit them for a KO. Even with light topspin, you can get errors or a good high ball to power away. If you can do that to opponent twice in a game and they cannot adjust, you have extra ace and face cards hidden in your sleeve. When opponent knows what is gunna happen to them when that serve goes off their bat, it is a huge edge in the mental warfare.

The keys to my short topspin serve are to use same serve motion and arm slot, make it look as much as the underspin serve as possible, stay loose, visualize where ball will land on other side, and be ready to pounce.

My objective is not to make a heavy spin, but to change the spin unknowingly or at a minimum, cause opponent to hesitate. That variation will be enough to get a high percentage chance.

We can talk about this tech spec and that, but I am not good enough to do all that. I try to keep the serve as simple and controlled high percentage as I can. One day I will be good enough to mess around and do hat everyone else is talking about. For now, I try to be simply an effective salesman of underwear.

That is another American expression. If you really did a great job of selling something to some, especially something they didn't need, and do it smoothly... then in USA we say you could have sold him his underwear.

Der_Echte
06-21-2019, 04:55 PM
I Will be so rude and say that they are not so good if you read them correct and see that it is topspin. But it must be alot of spin if you read topspin and still miss.

Lula is NOT rude and should have more privilege than Der_Echte for stepping into a thread.

Of course Lula is right, if opponent can see the ball well and be ready, that opponent can make my life tough and make me regret my choice of serve. (But my success on that serve if opponent reads it does not come from a lot of spin)

Some opponents will read the topspin, on my short serve, but do a few things to make errors or give me the ball to crush. If opponent is too eager, then they can mis-time or play it too strong. That happens when I get them on that serve a few times and they want to crush it SO BAD it burns them. Sometimes, opponent see a give-away sign or read a tendency, so a light goes on and they go into attack mode... but something in my serve makes them mis-time the shot. Sometimes, an opponent realizes the spin a micro second to late and is off time on the shot.

Sometimes, I add corkscrew spin to make the bounce more severe to the side suddenly. That variation helps me out a lot.

The ones who see it, then step in to take the ball on the rise around or below net high can punish me on my short topspin serve.

However, the success of the serve is choosing an effective time for that serve and "sell" the serve. The same concepts of variation from no-spin to under, or from under to near-dead apply. It is a matter of variation and getting opponent to see it too late or not at all.

If you can get opponent to not realize what is going on, then you found a re-useable tool of psychological warfare.

Der_Echte
06-21-2019, 05:02 PM
I just meant that i Do not think We give him any real help if we start to discuss the definition instead how to Do as he asks for.

I also think the discussion about What is a short serve is interesting. Like someone Else stated short serves that are very short are actually not very good. Better if they bounce a little longer so the second bounce is just on the table or a little out of the table. Harder for the opponent to make a decision, to play short and you Do not need so much spin to fool them.

The topspin needed are also not really so much. Just enough so the opponent thinks it is less topspin or thinks that they are some other spin in the serve. To try to serve to win points today straight off the serve is difficult.

Haha, i do not think We should focus to much on who is a coach or not. I feel the longer i am playing or coaching tabletennis the more i feel that everything is pretty subjective, there are not many rigth or wrongs because players Do stuff well But sometimes very differently. The technique and strokes Do not need to be perfect, many Times it is proably better to become the best with how you play at the moment than change everything. And serving especially is barely anything i teach because i feel it is mostly about practice to learn for yourself. Alot of touch and training behing good serves.

What I highlight in BOLD of Lula's post are exactly the concepts I like to use.

It is great to get winners from the serves, but a bad deal to expect that.

It is not how much spin you use, but making the opponent NOT notice your variation. The amount of spin needed is not so heavy, what is important is the kind of serves you used before, changing it up, and making it look similar. It is all in the sales job.

The second bolded part of Lula's quote (needing less spin that you think) is the essence of my success.

Der_Echte
06-21-2019, 05:11 PM
I get what Lula is saying about players needing to practice and discover for themselves, but there are many technical aspects of serving that players really need to learn before going into hardcore practice... or their practice will be garbage and only re-enforce ineffective things.

In 2007, I had a chance to be on the east coast when I was a recreational player. Forum member BOGEYHUNTER was around my current play level back then (now is 2200-2300s) and gave me some essential concepts on how to serve short, how to use same motion, how to make a whip, how to control bat angle, how to use touch, where to land ball, when to use a serve, and how to sell it with after motions.

I had maybe a 30 minute session maybe 1-2 times. That was enough for me later (when I was in a remote Army camp in Iraq) to experiment and practice a few minutes a day for a year. I gained 2 full levels doing just that as a rec player.

It is regrettable that Bogeyhunter does not post on TT forums as much as he did 10-15 years ago.

perham
06-21-2019, 08:00 PM
Good advice all-round. I tried to incorporate some, but now my serve looks like a shovel serve a bit.

https://streamable.com/15up6

NextLevel
06-21-2019, 08:27 PM
I haven't practiced serves in a while but in general your serve form needs work. Maybe I will do a newer video but here is my old practice video with me mixing up the spins.

https://youtu.be/s0WNWtRCCIw?t=30

Most of the double bounce short serves are topspin but not all.

whocarez
06-21-2019, 09:31 PM
Like NL is saying in the bold letters, I like using this concept. If you focus too much on exactly where the first bounce lands, you lose too much quality of your serve. (At least it works that way for me) As I am about to impact the ball, I am only concerned with keeping loose grip, good timing, and visualize the ball going over the net low and first bounce on other side being with in the first 20% of the table by the net (that is 1 foot for USA folks). If I manage to do that, I tend to have higher success. Since I am a monkey with ADD, I do not accomplish that as much as I should.
Totally agree with this, I never think about where the first bounce on my side is but the visualization has always helped me a lot with improving my serves. At least for me, this concept has worked pretty well when trying to improve. Not only on serves, but technique in general. Actually in other sports too.

Thanks for all the great input in this thread.

FruitLoop
06-22-2019, 12:07 AM
Good advice all-round. I tried to incorporate some, but now my serve looks like a shovel serve a bit.

https://streamable.com/15up6

More thin contact. This is almost like a short, slow, version of a long fast serve if you get my meaning.

Also your body moves towards the ball but then stops just before contact. Try to carry your body motion into the ball.

NextLevel
06-22-2019, 04:36 AM
More thin contact. This is almost like a short, slow, version of a long fast serve if you get my meaning.

Also your body moves towards the ball but then stops just before contact. Try to carry your body motion into the ball.

Honestly let's see your serve. If you feel inclined to comment about his serving, you can hopefully demonstrate the expertise that supports your observation given the complete lack of humility with which you state your observation.

langel
06-22-2019, 08:03 AM
Good advice all-round. I tried to incorporate some, but now my serve looks like a shovel serve a bit.

https://streamable.com/15up6

That's good, and if you continue the same approach you will improve it and add some usefull variations.
This serve has enough amount of top spin to be considered as a "top spin serve". With less spin it would be considered as just a "no spin", no matter is it top or under or whatever. And this thread is about the top spin serve, not the dead one.
I like you do it along the diagonal. As the top spin ball has a longer trajectory than the under spinned, it helps to send the ball closer to the net on the opponents siide, and/or to send it aside from tne table, and/or to the weaker wing of the opponent.
In one of these serves its well visible how you apply a good portion of side spin over the top. This clockwise sidespin to the BH takes the ball even more aside and the return was one of the worst both due to the placemet and the wrong approach of the opponet to the spin direction.
Its very well visible that the closer to you is the first bounce, the closer to the net on the opponents side is the second, and the closer to the net is the first, the deeper is the second. And its visible that for this particular opponent your longer serves are more difficult to return. He had better success with your shorter serves. So its good to master different variations and try the opponent. To this opponent you better serve long.
Generally /and usually/ I do agree a lot with Der_Echte, as the majority of his approaches do cover my own ones. But here I do disagree with the concept that one should not concentrate too much on the first bounce. Well, I do agree that it may be true for the experienced player, who is used to the many factors and is able to concentrate on the implementation of the one which is most important for the particular aim, leaving the rest to the well trained motor systems. But for the developing player, starting his approch in a new field, that's not true. It matters, and I think that in this very approach it matters a lot.

NextLevel
06-22-2019, 12:11 PM
That's good, and if you continue the same approach you will improve it and add some usefull variations.
This serve has enough amount of top spin to be considered as a "top spin serve". With less spin it would be considered as just a "no spin", no matter is it top or under or whatever. And this thread is about the top spin serve, not the dead one.
I like you do it along the diagonal. As the top spin ball has a longer trajectory than the under spinned, it helps to send the ball closer to the net on the opponents siide, and/or to send it aside from tne table, and/or to the weaker wing of the opponent.
In one of these serves its well visible how you apply a good portion of side spin over the top. This clockwise sidespin to the BH takes the ball even more aside and the return was one of the worst both due to the placemet and the wrong approach of the opponet to the spin direction.
Its very well visible that the closer to you is the first bounce, the closer to the net on the opponents side is the second, and the closer to the net is the first, the deeper is the second. And its visible that for this particular opponent your longer serves are more difficult to return. He had better success with your shorter serves. So its good to master different variations and try the opponent. To this opponent you better serve long.
Generally /and usually/ I do agree a lot with Der_Echte, as the majority of his approaches do cover my own ones. But here I do disagree with the concept that one should not concentrate too much on the first bounce. Well, I do agree that it may be true for the experienced player, who is used to the many factors and is able to concentrate on the implementation of the one which is most important for the particular aim, leaving the rest to the well trained motor systems. But for the developing player, starting his approch in a new field, that's not true. It matters, and I think that in this very approach it matters a lot.

Well, coaches can disagree on many things and it can be interesting to introduce concepts in a variety of ways. The problem.with focusing on the bounce on your side is that it really depends on the player. I used to be able to serve fast short backspin and short topspin with bounce close to my endline. But I thought it was "wrong" rather than just focusing on the serve.

You can use the bounce on your side as a guide but it is not going to determine whether the serve is short. The bounce on the other side determines that. This is the important thing. And that is why people who understand it need to stress it so that people know what is important.

Developing a good serve requires a lot of practice. It is not going to matter where the first bounce is on your side if you practice a lot and continue to fix it. But it will never be shirt if the first bounce is too far from the net on the other side. How you get it there is up to you.

Der_Echte
06-22-2019, 04:53 PM
I don't want to sound like Der_Echte be making it up as he goes along... but when I say "Don't worry too much on where the first bounce lands" I am not saying to ignore the first bounce location - it is a critical part of your serve.

I am saying that there are more important aspects of the short topspin serve than the first bounce.

You could get the first bounce thing absolutely nailed and still have a crap fail of a topspin short serve. Slowing it down, getting the right touch, the right trajectory are going to affect the first and second bounce on the other side more than messing those two things up and nailing the 1st bounce on your side.

Now I will contradict myself and confuse everyone some more, since I am that kind of dude.

In that one year where I had no TT matches and could only practice serves a few minutes each day, (TT table was in the phone trailer and it was bad deal to have all these bouncing noisy balls when guys be calling back home)… back then I was learning to serve short under and its variants.

I focused on first bounce on my side of table as the next to last thing, but at that time, it was the main focus, but not until I worked on most everything else first, then it was a huge focus point.

There were a lot of things affecting and contributing to my failures back then to make the simplest of a short serve.

- Getting bat angle horizontal to table at impact / making a horizontal stroke with a pendulum curve
- Loose grip at impact
- Stopping upper arm and using lower arm/wrist - getting basic biomechanics right
- Making an effective whip
- Getting a consistent ball toss / using end line as a guide to toss
- Learning the timing of swing and bat to ball for impact in the sweet spot of impact zone
- Learning the different impact heights and ball trajectories possible for my impact
- GETTING FIRST BOUNCE ON MY SIDE RIGHT
- Adjusting impact dynamics (impact height, force, trajectory, first bounce on my side) optimized for a very tight, low short serve
- Developing better touch and whip to get more spin when I go for that

I did a progressive approach to isolate some core things.

- Phase 1 Away from table, toss ball, make heavy high arching backspin 10 feet out on floor, spin ball back (This focused on my impact timing, horizontal stroke, and later, the needed whip)

- Phase 2 At table, 2 meters behind table, do the same thing (This focused on visualizing the table and developing confidence I could whip it at the table, plus get good spin)

- Phase 3 At table, put it all together (and fail) to make a BASIC short serve, not perfect, but a short serve (This focused on everything, not so much the first bounce POINT, but a ZONE to land first bounce on my side)

- Phase 4 At table, fine tune all the aspects to get the serve right, first bounce POINT or smaller ZONE was the focus while I improved everything else.

Der_Echte
06-22-2019, 05:03 PM
Many adults watch my short serves when I practice in the TT hall (when I am not in a match and goofing off)

These adult players want a short serve and realize their short serve is non-existent and weak spin. They want to get a better advantage in their game. Many of these players ask me how I get the serve short or get the level of spin. I explain... then instead of progressive approach that takes time, they go for glory right away practicing at the table immediately with energy and desire.

These adults practice at the table trying to put it all together right away, an EPIC FAIL every time. There are way too many things to get right to be able to practice them all at one time effectively. One failure leads to another. That energy and desire evaporates like water in the desert.

These adults get discouraged and depressed as they see themselves fail, step on their figurative wee-wee with every attempted serve... and end up with even crappier serves than before.

That is why I always show players and stress the fundamentals with a progressive approach. Both Dan and Brett Clark show this approach in their serve vids.

Even those who try the progressive approach give up way too soon. Even if an adult player were to train the most effective possible way, it STILL TAKES A LOT OF TIME, REPS, and FAILURES to make progress. Even then, many adults give up too soon.

I support NL and all the TTD members when they make posts saying that there is a different focus, or a different way, or a different technique for the same shot, serve, tactic, or TT goal for different players in different parts of development for those things or their play level in general.

I also support people who say there are many paths, or at least more than one effective path. Yet, laws of physics/psychiatry, and basic fundamentals cannot be ignored, there can be many common things in differing foundations or paths.

Der_Echte
06-22-2019, 05:22 PM
But here I do disagree with the concept that one should not concentrate too much on the first bounce. Well, I do agree that it may be true for the experienced player, who is used to the many factors and is able to concentrate on the implementation of the one which is most important for the particular aim, leaving the rest to the well trained motor systems. But for the developing player, starting his approch in a new field, that's not true. It matters, and I think that in this very approach it matters a lot.

I made several long posts addressing this in my posts before this post.

We are both correct (at least I believe that).

I advocate and strongly support the concept when learning a shot, tactic or combination of a holistic view and approach with learning and progression.

By this nature, there will be different things to focus on as it may be too much to do everything all at once putting it all together.

I do not back down from my statement that Der_Echte should not worry too much about the first bounce. Der_Echte is in a different phase than a developing player learning the short topspin serve (although I am still a developing adult player) Der_Echte knows the concepts and factor of the short topspin serve. He is beyond worrying about the first bounce and has other issues affecting the shortness of that serve. (touch, force control, and trajectory)

Given that, I really must worry about my touch at impact, it is affecting my failure to keep it short half the time (but a halflong serve where I fool someone on the spin is still very effective serving).

That is why I say I worry NOT so much on my first bounce. At this stage, my brain is working (or malfunctioning) different than standard and I need to approach it different.

For now, I accept that I am barely over 50% consistent on keeping the topspin short serve short and that I just need to keep practicing to develop better touch and impact control. It is one of the toughest serves to be near 100% consistent. I just accept that I am still developing, but try to use the serve in a match at a time where my sales delivery will get opponent to mis-read or hesitate, so I can get an advantage immediately in the rally.

langel
06-22-2019, 06:50 PM
Yes, thats all good and true!
What you descrbe in your lower part of #45, I call "volume compression", and I use it not only for serves.
Steps - thats what we all have to care about not only in personal development, but in forum communication too.
A too big step, or a marathon, would not help at all, and a wrong step would damage for sure.

NextLevel
06-23-2019, 02:16 AM
So, again, to close out my side of things, let me explain once more in excruciating detail why *focusing* on the first bounce on your side is misplaced in the terms of giving special advice about *serving short*.

A *Short serve* is not determined by where the first bounce on your side lands.

If you practice serving a lot, you will look at a lot of things about to serve to understand what spin is on it and how it is traveling. One of those things will be where the serve bounces on your side because it is part of the complete serve trajectory.

But when learning to serve short, there is all kinds of advice out there. There are some people who say that the first bounce must be close to the net. There are some coaches who will tell you that the plastic ball has changed this and the first bounce must be closer to your endline because of the plastic ball. But a high level player told me that a coach told him when he was younger (which will be 20 years ago or more) to serve close to his endline for *all* serves, including short ones, because it made them faster.

Brett, who is an incredible server, told me that if you want to practice short serving, use your visualization to imagine the serve bouncing just behind the net on the opponent's side. Then with your skills, practice repeatedly. Of course, Brett also believes that most players can't serve tight (low, spinny and short) unless they are 2500 and that even world class players have trouble doing this upon demand under pressure. Brett taught me that the most important return to learn is the forehand loop of long and half long serves.

Part of the reason why many players can't serve short is that too many coaches keep giving bad instruction about what makes a serve short. The focus is always on the first bounce on your side when that has nothing to do with whether the serve is short or not. The key is that however you practice your feeling, and no matter your touch, the first bounce has to be close to the net on the opponent's side. OF course, with heavy backspin and some sidespin serves, you have room for more error because sidespin gives longer trajectory and backspin tends to want to slow down. Topspin wants to roll forward but the touch is harder. But if you can find a way to serve short topspin with the first bounce on your side close to the net, then do it. I don't think it is easy or possible, but you may find a trick that can make it happen.

When you use the firsts bounce on your side as information, but not as the determinant of serve length, good things happen. When you use the first bounce on the opponent's side as very important, fantastic things happen. Because you are focusing on what really makes the serve short.

If you want to raise your deception, you may do some interesting things like try to serve your backspin so that it bounces a little higher like topspin so you can serve high topspin and remain deceptive. Both can be short and deceptive if you focus on the first bounce on the opponents' side. You can also push down when serving topspin so that it travels low like backspin and then try to serve your backspin serves with more speed but with the first bounce close to your endline but fast enough to look like it is fast topspin serve. These are all possible when you know that you can play with your serve trajectory given your target of serving the ball at a specific point on the opponent's side. And while you need to practice a lot to get this control, it is easy to start doing it when you understand what really keeps a serve short.

So I implore you, please stop repeating and focusing on outdated advice about the first bounce on your side - the first bounce on your side is more related to SPEED, not DEPTH. Note it, but always stress to the serving student that what keeps the serve short is usually the first bounce on the opponent's side. The faster the serve you serve into the short zone, the better, because it usually means the serve is lower and gives the opponent less time to decide.

NextLevel
06-23-2019, 02:26 AM
Good advice all-round. I tried to incorporate some, but now my serve looks like a shovel serve a bit.

https://streamable.com/15up6


So a couple of comments.

I hope you do realize that it is 99.9% certain that those were really long serves (or if not long, not really tight) but you aren't playing the quality of opponent to devastate them (to his credit, he did attack them). The bounce is too far from the net on the opponent's side but the serve speed fooled him, and maybe his lack of experience/training. But if he had left the serves, they would have come off the table.

One lesson for you is that it is very hard for people to serve short at your level, if you learn to attack long and half long serves, your level will go up fast.

As for the serve itself, serve around the side even more and try to make the first bounce on the opponent's side closer to the net to keep it short. However you do that is up to you, there are many ways that work with practice. But if you do it with spin, it is going to be mostly sidespin or corkscrew.

UpSideDownCarl
06-23-2019, 03:56 AM
So, again, to close out my side of things, let me explain once more in excruciating detail why *focusing* on the first bounce on your side is misplaced in the terms of giving special advice about *serving short*.

A *Short serve* is not determined by where the first bounce on your side lands.

If you practice serving a lot, you will look at a lot of things about to serve to understand what spin is on it and how it is traveling. One of those things will be where the serve bounces on your side because it is part of the complete serve trajectory.

But when learning to serve short, there is all kinds of advice out there. There are some people who say that the first bounce must be close to the net. There are some coaches who will tell you that the plastic ball has changed this and the first bounce must be closer to your endline because of the plastic ball. But a high level player told me that a coach told him when he was younger (which will be 20 years ago or more) to serve close to his endline for *all* serves, including short ones, because it made them faster.

Brett, who is an incredible server, told me that if you want to practice short serving, use your visualization to imagine the serve bouncing just behind the net on the opponent's side. Then with your skills, practice repeatedly. Of course, Brett also believes that most players can't serve tight (low, spinny and short) unless they are 2500 and that even world class players have trouble doing this upon demand under pressure. Brett taught me that the most important return to learn is the forehand loop of long and half long serves.

Part of the reason why many players can't serve short is that too many coaches keep giving bad instruction about what makes a serve short. The focus is always on the first bounce on your side when that has nothing to do with whether the serve is short or not. The key is that however you practice your feeling, and no matter your touch, the first bounce has to be close to the net on the opponent's side. OF course, with heavy backspin and some sidespin serves, you have room for more error because sidespin gives longer trajectory and backspin tends to want to slow down. Topspin wants to roll forward but the touch is harder. But if you can find a way to serve short topspin with the first bounce on your side close to the net, then do it. I don't think it is easy or possible, but you may find a trick that can make it happen.

When you use the firsts bounce on your side as information, but not as the determinant of serve length, good things happen. When you use the first bounce on the opponent's side as very important, fantastic things happen. Because you are focusing on what really makes the serve short.

If you want to raise your deception, you may do some interesting things like try to serve your backspin so that it bounces a little higher like topspin so you can serve high topspin and remain deceptive. Both can be short and deceptive if you focus on the first bounce on the opponents' side. You can also push down when serving topspin so that it travels low like backspin and then try to serve your backspin serves with more speed but with the first bounce close to your endline but fast enough to look like it is fast topspin serve. These are all possible when you know that you can play with your serve trajectory given your target of serving the ball at a specific point on the opponent's side. And while you need to practice a lot to get this control, it is easy to start doing it when you understand what really keeps a serve short.

So I implore you, please stop repeating and focusing on outdated advice about the first bounce on your side - the first bounce on your side is more related to SPEED, not DEPTH. Note it, but always stress to the serving student that what keeps the serve short is usually the first bounce on the opponent's side. The faster the serve you serve into the short zone, the better, because it usually means the serve is lower and gives the opponent less time to decide.

This is a great post.

langel
06-23-2019, 07:47 AM
Topspin wants to roll forward but the touch is harder. But if you can find a way to serve short topspin with the first bounce on your side close to the net, then do it. I don't think it is easy or possible, but you may find a trick that can make it happen.



Fully agree with everything in your post.
I decided to citate the extraction only just to remind that the long discussion on the importance of the "first bounce" started with the very short remark "I doubt.......", which is the same as the bolded above. It wouldn't go so long, if the concept was corrected. But as you see, when a fundamental basis is wrong, it takes a lot of time and words to put the pieces together.
I beleive that now the OP has a clear roadmap for the particular approach.

Der_Echte
06-23-2019, 08:38 PM
After Next Level's post... got to thinking a bit more about first bounce on my side... I really could NOT tell you my exact landing spot on my side of net for a topspin short serve that I do... and I am credited with having at least serviceable OK short topspin serves. I would need to look at a video, honestly. I am simply trying to get ball low over net and land close to net as possible other side, and stay low, then bounce twice if left alone. I cannot do that serve looking at my landing spot at impact.

For the life of me, without watch a vid of myself, I couldn't advise the landing spot on my side as my impact for a short topspin is different than underspin... that serve I could say where my landing zone is.

For a short underspin serve I like to do, there is a small zone I target, right at half way to net and goes forward 10-15 cm... Even that is just a zone, I basically try to relax and think/see the ball over as I impact it... I practiced enough that I am trying to see in my mind where it goes, but I have an idea where it will land on my side given a consistent stroke. Later, I will need to practice faster short serves that will land closer to 25% from endline to give the look of long, or half long, but be short.

I THINK my landing zone is on the left side of table maybe almost 50% to net, but I would have to see successful short serves I did on matches in vids to really know. I wouldn't be able to tell you accurately if I was offered $1 Million USD right now to say without looking at a vid of me.

FruitLoop
06-24-2019, 07:56 PM
Honestly let's see your serve. If you feel inclined to comment about his serving, you can hopefully demonstrate the expertise that supports your observation given the complete lack of humility with which you state your observation.

What lack of humility? I feel inclined because he asked for help he was specifically requesting what I provided. Your comment here is utterly bizarre. Honestly? Go **** yourself.

NextLevel
06-24-2019, 08:11 PM
What lack of humility? I feel inclined because he asked for help he was specifically requesting what I provided. Your comment here is utterly bizarre. Honestly? Go **** yourself.

Well I also feel inclined to make sure that most web coaching on TTD is done in a manner that encourages people who put out their videos in good faith to get comments from people who have at least demonstrated some willingness to discuss their game a significant amount so people understand their perspective.

If you aren't willing to be a bit open about what you know about serving that justifies just telling someone who posted video of his serve how to improve it in the terse and uninsightful manner that you did, just stick to coaching people who don't know better.

I wouldn't be surprised if your serve is hardly better than his with the kinds of comment you wrote about it to be honest. And I am being generous when I say that.

FruitLoop
06-24-2019, 09:33 PM
Lacking humility, terse, uninsightful. None of those things are REMOTELY fair, it was a perfectly humble comment. I actually thought you had quoted the wrong post at first but then I realised who it was. The irony asking for humility coming from the astounding levels of arrogance you regularly display is rich. Your appeals to authority tiresome. Your insightfulness on this guy's serve? Absent. I am done.

RidTheKid
06-24-2019, 09:35 PM
I both agree and disagree with this post NL. While the competitive side in me absolutely wants to see how good someone else is who comments on my technique/quality/level, one doesn't have to be a great player themselves to understand the mechanics of TT to give good advice. If we compare football, some really good coaches was mediocre players at best.

But I don't care much for Fruitloops outburst, lets keep it civil even in times of argument. Whenever that feeling to throw harsh words around I recommend to step away from the forum for 10 mins and collect the thoughts. A Timeout of sorts.


Well I also feel inclined to make sure that most web coaching on TTD is done in a manner that encourages people who put out their videos in good faith to get comments from people who have at least demonstrated some willingness to discuss their game a significant amount so people understand their perspective.

If you aren't willing to be a bit open about what you know about serving that justifies just telling someone who posted video of his serve how to improve it in the terse and uninsightful manner that you did, just stick to coaching people who don't know better.

I wouldn't be surprised if your serve is hardly better than his with the kinds of comment you wrote about it to be honest. And I am being generous when I say that.

langel
06-24-2019, 09:50 PM
#3

Serve top spin along the diagonals from corner to corner, first bounce closer to you, soft and spinny, keep it low, and even not so short, the ball will either sink close to the edge, or even double bounce.

#7

I doubt that with top spin, even with a very soft touch, you'll get a short serve if the first bounce is close to the net.
With top spin closer to the net first bounce means deeper second one.
With top spin the distance between the two bounces is longer than with under spin /provided same force applied/.
With top spin the ball is faster than with under spin, and the second bounce is lower.
Because of that the advantage of the top spin serve is not exactly in the very short placement, which in general is difficult to be achieved, but anyway if you want to, you have to make the first bounce not closer to the net, but the opposite, and along the diagonals, trying to make the ball not to lieve the table after the seconf bounce and to keep the ball as low as possible.
Otherwise, with less or no spin, even if short, the ball can be easily attacked and flipped strong. In this case the only chance is the opponent to missread the ball.

Short and easy.

Everything from #7 up to #56 - either wrong, or just a kind of logorrhea explanation mode.

End of thread

p.s - Der_Echte has a wonderfull thread about Why this forum is going low.
Answer - Everything from #7 up to #56 - either wrong, or just a kind of logorrhea explanation mode.


@ administrator&moderator allert - look&bann

Farewell&CaseClosed

Thank You

Der_Echte
06-24-2019, 09:57 PM
Uh oh, Goon Squad deployment detected in sector 4 Bravo...

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

NextLevel
06-24-2019, 10:16 PM
I both agree and disagree with this post NL. While the competitive side in me absolutely wants to see how good someone else is who comments on my technique/quality/level, one doesn't have to be a great player themselves to understand the mechanics of TT to give good advice. If we compare football, some really good coaches was mediocre players at best.

But I don't care much for Fruitloops outburst, lets keep it civil even in times of argument. Whenever that feeling to throw harsh words around I recommend to step away from the forum for 10 mins and collect the thoughts. A Timeout of sorts.

I don't think I ever said great player. When I am being reflective, I really mean that critics should give some evidence of their play or some perspective of their experience so others can see where they are coming from. I will accept coaching experience too, I have seen adults who can't play that well develop kids or adults so they can be very insightful. But few of them would make a post like fruitloop's because they know either from coaching or experience what things are important and what things are not and how easy it is to diagnose but how hard it is to convey solutions.

Either you have experience improving yourself or you have experience improving others or both. Experience improving adults is even a class by itself. And a lot of my perspective on posts like fruitloop comes from taking people who I never should have taken seriously seriously in my early years of internet posting. Those posts left me trying things I should never have tried.

In any case, I appreciate your intervention. It's not the first time that fruitloop and I have clashed over something like this and I suspect it won't be the last.

I ultimately don't care whether someone is a good player or not. I just find that when people have talked about their background or posted video, they tend to be far more humble on forums. fruitloop is not the first person to go around this forum pretending to know stuff he doesn't really practice. In most cases, I just do the best I can to make people keep it real and humble.

NextLevel
06-24-2019, 10:18 PM
Uh oh, Goon Squad deployment detected in sector 4 Bravo...

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Re deploy, Redploy!

Der_Echte
06-24-2019, 11:55 PM
Initiating Quick Response Hazmat Contaiment Sequence...

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

RidTheKid
06-25-2019, 07:29 AM
I wholeheartedly agree on keeping it real. If one is not honest about themselves there will be no real improvement and development. It can sting to accept weaknesses but it's absolutely necessary and it's the road to success.



I don't think I ever said great player. When I am being reflective, I really mean that critics should give some evidence of their play or some perspective of their experience so others can see where they are coming from. I will accept coaching experience too, I have seen adults who can't play that well develop kids or adults so they can be very insightful. But few of them would make a post like fruitloop's because they know either from coaching or experience what things are important and what things are not and how easy it is to diagnose but how hard it is to convey solutions.

Either you have experience improving yourself or you have experience improving others or both. Experience improving adults is even a class by itself. And a lot of my perspective on posts like fruitloop comes from taking people who I never should have taken seriously seriously in my early years of internet posting. Those posts left me trying things I should never have tried.

In any case, I appreciate your intervention. It's not the first time that fruitloop and I have clashed over something like this and I suspect it won't be the last.

I ultimately don't care whether someone is a good player or not. I just find that when people have talked about their background or posted video, they tend to be far more humble on forums. fruitloop is not the first person to go around this forum pretending to know stuff he doesn't really practice. In most cases, I just do the best I can to make people keep it real and humble.

UpSideDownCarl
06-25-2019, 03:22 PM
More thin contact. This is almost like a short, slow, version of a long fast serve if you get my meaning.

Also your body moves towards the ball but then stops just before contact. Try to carry your body motion into the ball.


I don't think I ever said great player. When I am being reflective, I really mean that critics should give some evidence of their play or some perspective of their experience so others can see where they are coming from. I will accept coaching experience too, I have seen adults who can't play that well develop kids or adults so they can be very insightful. But few of them would make a post like fruitloop's because they know either from coaching or experience what things are important and what things are not and how easy it is to diagnose but how hard it is to convey solutions.

Either you have experience improving yourself or you have experience improving others or both. Experience improving adults is even a class by itself. And a lot of my perspective on posts like fruitloop comes from taking people who I never should have taken seriously seriously in my early years of internet posting. Those posts left me trying things I should never have tried.

In any case, I appreciate your intervention. It's not the first time that fruitloop and I have clashed over something like this and I suspect it won't be the last.

I ultimately don't care whether someone is a good player or not. I just find that when people have talked about their background or posted video, they tend to be far more humble on forums. fruitloop is not the first person to go around this forum pretending to know stuff he doesn't really practice. In most cases, I just do the best I can to make people keep it real and humble.

Sorry. One thing. In fairness. Perhaps there is background that I am missing. But I don't see FruitLoops comment as anything bad. Perhaps it can be worded better. I also may not agree with all of it. But to me it looks like he is simply trying to give details to refine the serve in the video.

How different people explain things sometimes may have to do with the ability to take the time to explain in detail.

But the main elements I see in FruitLoop's comment are:

1) See if you can try to get a thinner brush contact.

2) It looks to me like you are trying to do a long serve and just make it slower to make it shorter. Do you understand what I mean.

3) See if you can continue the followthrough with the body. To me it looks like you are pulling back a bit too early.

That is me paraphrasing what it sounds to me like FruitLoop meant. What I don't see in it is arrogance or insults about Perham or his abilities. His comment was short. But I don't see a bad intention in it.

I understand that there are times when someone makes comments about someone else's play that are just awful. Right now I am thinking of Archo telling someone several levels better than him how, "Back when I was as bad as you are...." But I really am not hearing that from FruitLoop. I am just reading a comment that was quick and did not flesh out all the details FruitLoop was attempting to allude to.

Anyway. Perhaps you guys can play nice with each other. I would appreciate that. Thank you.

NextLevel
06-25-2019, 03:50 PM
Sorry. One thing. In fairness. Perhaps there is background that I am missing. But I don't see FruitLoops comment as anything bad. Perhaps it can be worded better. I also may not agree with all of it. But to me it looks like he is simply trying to give details to refine the serve in the video.

How different people explain things sometimes may have to do with the ability to take the time to explain in detail.

But the main elements I see in FruitLoop's comment are:

1) See if you can try to get a thinner brush contact.

2) It looks to me like you are trying to do a long serve and just make it slower to make it shorter. Do you understand what I mean.

3) See if you can continue the followthrough with the body. To me it looks like you are pulling back a bit too early.

That is me paraphrasing what it sounds to me like FruitLoop meant. What I don't see in it is arrogance or insults about Perham or his abilities. His comment was short. But I don't see a bad intention in it.

I understand that there are times when someone makes comments about someone else's play that are just awful. Right now I am thinking of Archo telling someone several levels better than him how, "Back when I was as bad as you are...." But I really am not hearing that from FruitLoop. I am just reading a comment that was quick and did not flesh out all the details FruitLoop was attempting to allude to.

Anyway. Perhaps you guys can play nice with each other. I would appreciate that. Thank you.

Will do. I was a bit too sensitive to what I perceived to be bad coaching. Everyone has a right to post what they want and I should let the reader judge (after all, I didn't end up in hospital after taking all the bad advice seriously, though my TT did get derailed for a few years).

Brs
06-25-2019, 04:34 PM
The long side top serve into the body is more effective anyway. If people read the short topspin they get in fast and smack the hell out of it, because it's hard to get short, topspin, and low on the same ball. You can have any two out of the three pretty easy, but all three is hard.

Loopadoop
06-25-2019, 04:49 PM
Simple with the light contact

pingpongpaddy
07-07-2019, 10:42 PM
[QUOTE=perham;279330]Good advice all-round. I tried to incorporate some, but now my serve looks like a shovel serve a bit.

Hi Perham
I watched your vid.
and my comments are as follows:-
as it stands yr serve is top but not very short, and not disguised at all. Instead use pure side brush with racket leaning back or forward.
1: to change your existing serve to go short with topspin:-
try to let yr racket face hang down vertically from your hand, and get your head directly over the racket and ball at contact (so that you can see contact) and execute the pendulum contact just trying for sidespin and ensuring a very light contact. If experiment with varying this by leaning the handle over the contact (side-top) or leaning handle back from contact (side-chop) In your vid your handle leans back but is not true pendulum and so it becomes difficult to keep it short. Instead just use pure pendulum brush for sidespin experimenting with racket vertical or leaning back or forward

Good luck

ppp
moristo sp
yin he galaxy 1 ply