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Ilcane1
07-23-2019, 12:20 PM
Hi there.. in these last days I'm trying to develop my bh shots, starting from the serve receiving to the bh topspin (vs backspin the biggest problem). But i have some doubts:
Which are the differences between a bh topspin and a service receipt (as banana flicks)? I mean: if the ball doesn't bounce off the table, is the swing made only by wirst? I know that the bat swing has to start with the top of the bat pointing to my body in both cases, so i can't understand if and how to fix my elbow as a pivot. Thank you for your suggestion.

Bear1960
07-23-2019, 01:37 PM
Hi, the swings are from the principle same/similar. Both shots needs the pivot on the elbow. For the topspin (ball outgoing of the table) you have more space to launch the arm and so the stroke, and you have the possibility to use also as pivot the shoulder (longer stroke). In case of flick the stroke is short(er) and mostly done by forearm and wrist. The movement, in my opinion, just as stroke, is not difficult. Difficult is to find the starting time in order to find the ball on the highest point.
Using multiball training you can find the right time.
Not easy to do in matches due to the fear to lose the point, but, if don't try, you never will be able to use it!

usualsuspect
07-23-2019, 02:05 PM
I agree with Bear's description. Try to relax your hand and wrist, pivot from your elbow (you really only use wrist for adjusting racket angle, not for power). Timing is very important for BH topspin, try to take the ball either before or at the highest point.
If you are just starting to develop your BH topspin, I recommend you start with learning BH blocking.
BH topspin is basically just BH blocking plus a little brushing and hitting.
Once you are very comfortable blocking most incoming topspin shots, you will naturally start to put more power behind your blocks and turn it into BH loops or drives.
Anyways, these are some tips I got from a Chinese coach in my local club. They really helped me with my BH topspin. I hope they can help you too.

With BH flicks, I pivot from my shoulder and rotate my entire arm to generate power. I tend to not use wrist for power in BH flicks. Some players in my club can use a lot power from their wrist in BH flicks and their shots are very powerful. I cannot do that yet. I relax my wrist and keep it fixed for extra control. My elbow and back also provide some power for the flick. My BH flicks are consistent and spinny, but not powerful.

These are just my experience as an amateur, I'm sure others will have better tips for you.

Ilcane1
07-23-2019, 03:15 PM
I see my strokes going out of the table because i put too much power on flicks, so i'd like to know if its only a wrist swing. When i try to go with less power i send the ball in the net (vs backspin serve mostly)

Ilcane1
07-23-2019, 03:21 PM
About timing.. my coach tells me to wait for the ball, i'm often too much fast and hit the ball too soon. With my fh loop i'm improving, and i'm more consistent i hit after the pick of the bounce (vs backspin balls, but also vs blocks), so i'm right or not?

NextLevel
07-23-2019, 04:13 PM
About timing.. my coach tells me to wait for the ball, i'm often too much fast and hit the ball too soon. With my fh loop i'm improving, and i'm more consistent i hit after the pick of the bounce (vs backspin balls, but also vs blocks), so i'm right or not?

Almost everyone ideally hits after the peak of the bounce but the stuff almost everyone says will make you think otherwise.

NextLevel
07-23-2019, 04:16 PM
I see my strokes going out of the table because i put too much power on flicks, so i'd like to know if its only a wrist swing. When i try to go with less power i send the ball in the net (vs backspin serve mostly)

Contact point, swing trajectory and quality of the backswing to create racket head speed. There is a good backhand flick video with Fan Zhendong that shows how you need to use the arm. You need to throw the body upward and backwards. If I find the video I will post it.

NextLevel
07-23-2019, 04:18 PM
https://youtu.be/OeLFTvTfhGY

usualsuspect
07-23-2019, 06:57 PM
I see my strokes going out of the table because i put too much power on flicks, so i'd like to know if its only a wrist swing. When i try to go with less power i send the ball in the net (vs backspin serve mostly)

For flicks, it's all about precise control of power and racket angle. You need to adjust both based on the length and spin of the serve.
If your flick goes long, it could be you used too much power or your racket angle was too open. If it hits the net, you might need to use less power or close your racket some more.

usualsuspect
07-23-2019, 07:00 PM
About timing.. my coach tells me to wait for the ball, i'm often too much fast and hit the ball too soon. With my fh loop i'm improving, and i'm more consistent i hit after the pick of the bounce (vs backspin balls, but also vs blocks), so i'm right or not?

It depends if you are looping or driving. If you are driving or blocking, you want to hit the ball before or at the peak. If you are doing BH looping, then you want to wait until after the ball is at peak or after.
The same principle applies to both FH and BH loop and drive techniques.

usualsuspect
07-23-2019, 07:05 PM
Almost everyone ideally hits after the peak of the bounce but the stuff almost everyone says will make you think otherwise.

Sigh... I'd have a little bit of respect for you if you even slightly know what you are talking about.
If you are ignorant of the most basic tt techniques, at least try not to spread misinformation.
Are you really a good friend with a great Chinese coach? Somehow, everything you say makes me doubt that...

Your comment doesn't help the OP, only serves to confuse him.
Don't worry, at least I've clarified it for him.

usualsuspect
07-23-2019, 07:22 PM
Here is a video to help you with BH topspin.
The coach in the video is Li Sun, a coach on the Chinese National Team. He coached players like Li Xiaoxia, Zhang Yining, and now coaches Sun Yingsha.
According to him, BH topspin is mostly flat hit, no need to brush up that much, and don't imitate professional players like ZJK or FZD (it is pointless).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjkYifryMXY&t=190s&ab_channel=GnoPGniP

NextLevel
07-23-2019, 07:22 PM
Sigh... I'd have a little bit of respect for you if you even slightly know what you are talking about.
If you are ignorant of the most basic tt techniques, at least try not to spread misinformation.
Are you really a good friend with a great Chinese coach? Somehow, everything you say makes me doubt that...

Your comment doesn't help the OP, only serves to confuse him.
Don't worry, at least I've clarified it for him.

Did the OP ask about blocking?

It is getting tiring debating with a faceless and rude person when I am a public personality who is not hiding anything. I never said I know a great Chinese coach, though I suspect there are some people who believe that only Chinese coaches understand technique. The backhand topspin is one of my favorite strokes and most coaches tell me i have a strong backhand. I usually can communicate what I understand about it competently. No point debating someone who will never show people his backhand yet will be arrogant about it.

usualsuspect
07-23-2019, 07:30 PM
Did the OP ask about blocking?

It is getting tiring debating with a faceless and rude person when I am a public personality who is not hiding anything. I never said I know a great Chinese coach, though I suspect there are some people who believe that only Chinese coaches understand technique. The backhand topspin is one of my favorite strokes and most coaches tell me i have a strong backhand. I usually can communicate what I understand about it competently. No point debating someone who will never show people his backhand yet will be arrogant about it.

If you are sharing good information, I wouldn't be arguing with you.
The fact is: you share bad information and refuse to acknowledge it or learn from it.
Instead, you just double down and argue more.

As a public personality, you should be extra mindful about what you put into the public space.
Firing off half-baked opinions is easy; doing actual research and learning is much harder.
I hope you keep this in mind next time you want to make a public comment (just ask yourself, "am I absolutely sure I'm right about this?" If the answer isn't a firm "yes", then you probably should do some research before responding).

NextLevel
07-23-2019, 07:35 PM
If you are sharing good information, I wouldn't be arguing with you.
The fact is: you share bad information and refuse to acknowledge it or learn from it.
Instead, you just double down and argue more.

As a public personality, you should be extra mindful about what you put into the public space.
Firing off half-baked opinions is easy; doing actual research and learning is much harder.
I hope you keep this in mind next time you want to make a public comment (just ask yourself, "am I absolutely sure I'm right about this?" If the answer isn't a firm "yes", then you probably should do some research before responding).

Did the OP ask about blocking? If you answer that question, we can go from there.

usualsuspect
07-23-2019, 07:59 PM
Did the OP ask about blocking? If you answer that question, we can go from there.

Again, you are purposefully focusing on semantics rather than the substance.
You want to win the argument with me more than you want to help OP.

He did not ask about BH blocking, but I was trying to help him.
I've been trying to help OP.

He is trying to learn BH flicks before having mastered BH blocking.
You think that's a good idea? No, you probably don't care. At least, I don't see you try to help him with good information.
Most of your posts on this thread are just petty comments aimed at me. Why are you doing this?

Our goal should be helping the OP.
Be a man, have a bigger heart. If you are wrong, admit it and move on. It won't be the end of the world, I promise you.

NextLevel
07-23-2019, 08:02 PM
Again, you are purposefully focusing on semantics rather than the substance.
You want to win the argument with me more than you want to help OP.

He did not ask about BH blocking, but I was trying to help him.
I've been trying to help OP.

He is trying to learn BH flicks before having mastered BH blocking.
You think that's a good idea? No, you probably don't care. At least, I don't see you try to help him with good information.
Most of your posts on this thread are just petty comments aimed at me. Why are you doing this?

Our goal should be helping the OP.
Be a man, have a bigger heart. If you are wrong, admit it and move on. It won't be the end of the world, I promise you.

Thanks for the response. Now I know you are trolling and will ignore you as such. Cheers!

Ilcane1
07-23-2019, 08:23 PM
Hey guys keep calm!!

usualsuspect
07-23-2019, 08:37 PM
If you can already block very well, that's great!
If you want a more consistent BH flick, I recommend relaxing your hand and wrist more.
Don't use too much power in the beginning and keep an open racket angle.
Like Bear said, pivot from your elbow. You'll be surprised at how little power you need to do a BH flick.
My BH flick is similar to Ma Long's, but I don't bend my back backwards (because I'm clearly not as good as Ma Long).

Like I said before, my BH flick is spinny and consistent, but not powerful, because I don't know how to use power from my wrist and back yet. I hope you figure it out.

RidTheKid
07-23-2019, 09:27 PM
Bh power comes mainly from legs and abdomen.


If you can already block very well, that's great!
If you want a more consistent BH flick, I recommend relaxing your hand and wrist more.
Don't use too much power in the beginning and keep an open racket angle.
Like Bear said, pivot from your elbow. You'll be surprised at how little power you need to do a BH flick.
My BH flick is similar to Ma Long's, but I don't bend my back backwards (because I'm clearly not as good as Ma Long).

Like I said before, my BH flick is spinny and consistent, but not powerful, because I don't know how to use power from my wrist and back yet. I hope you figure it out.

Ilcane1
07-23-2019, 09:59 PM
Sorry maybe i made a wrong post edit. Btw i saw FanZendong bh and now my question is: should i use my elbow as pivot over the table, and my shoulder as pivot for q bh topspin? Or always my elbow?

Hysteresis
07-23-2019, 11:34 PM
Sorry maybe i made a wrong post edit. Btw i saw FanZendong bh and now my question is: should i use my elbow as pivot over the table, and my shoulder as pivot for q bh topspin? Or always my elbow?

Your elbow should be the pivot for both shots (maybe even below elbow for hard over the table flicks, but can make your shot less stable).

For the big loop, your hand starts from slightly below the table, and ideally you contact the ball slightly after top of bounce. You use your legs to power the upward motion.

For the flick, you ideally contact right at/near top of bounce, and your bat starts at pretty much the height you are going to contact the ball. There is basically no lower body involvement except to get into position.

NextLevel
07-24-2019, 12:07 AM
Sorry maybe i made a wrong post edit. Btw i saw FanZendong bh and now my question is: should i use my elbow as pivot over the table, and my shoulder as pivot for q bh topspin? Or always my elbow?

To be honest, the simplest way to get reasonable advice is to post a video of your attempts. General advice almost never addresses specific issues.

deams59
07-24-2019, 12:28 AM
I question your advice regarding throwing your body upwards and backwards. If his power flicks are going long perhaps it is a result of upward movement of the body when striking the ball. A close examination of FZD in the video shows that his head and body remain still up until the time he has hit the ball. The subsequent movement of the body seems to me to be as a result of the follow through, maintaining balance and being in the optimal position for the next shot.

NextLevel
07-24-2019, 01:09 AM
I question your advice regarding throwing your body upwards and backwards. If his power flicks are going long perhaps it is a result of upward movement of the body when striking the ball. A close examination of FZD in the video shows that his head and body remain still up until the time he has hit the ball. The subsequent movement of the body seems to me to be as a result of the follow through, maintaining balance and being in the optimal position for the next shot.

The follow through is part of the stroke, it may not look like it but it is. And while it is partly for the reasons you mentioned, for a backspin ball, which is precisely the kind of ball the OP said he puts into the net, the extra lift from that motion helps you spin the ball over the net onto the table. It is when he hits the ball too flat it goes long so it could be not just upward motion. In general, if you play a backhand topspin, the body tends to go backwards not forward as the back tends to propel the arm forward. I'm partly parroting a tutorial on the subject, so forgive me for any errors I am making in communicating the technique. But I know I often lean forward to play backhands and my momentum of my body goes backward while my swing goes forward (all part of circular twisting).

In any case, this is all general technical discussion, if we see the stroke, we can make recommendations.

Der_Echte
07-24-2019, 01:44 AM
There are so many different BH shots it is difficult to quantify all of them... then you have the "there is not just one path" thing too.

I see so much times where professional coaches for kids and adults advocate a "compact" movement that is kinda long for a medium ball coming to them with not so much spin (the warm-up BH) where it can also be done with a shorter stroke direct path with the same or better consistency.

This kinda thing makes it all the more confusing for a newer player asking technique questions on TT forums.

Coach A and Coach B may have different approaches to the same shot and both may end up being sound technique for that same player to build a match ready shot.

Add more confusion as it is hard to define a generic incoming ball. Every ball is different, we would need to know just about every possible X,Y,Z coordinate with the direction, spin, delta and so on just to have a proper idea of what ball the OP is trying to do something with...

Then the OP has got to define what output he is trying to achieve... must clearly articulate the desired result in terms of spin, speed, placement, depth, height, trajectory, etc.

There are so many ways to produce a result with the BH. We didn't even cover what grip pressure to use when... how to get into position, how to use the muscles in a chain sequence... how to adjust when out of position... how to create kinetic energy and channel/amplify it with the whip.

Until most of that gets clear, it would be a blind shot.

I generally have the same approach to a problem that Next Level has... define and understand the situation and provide solutions that are player and level relevant. A vid of an OP with comments where he or she is attempting something usually yields decent data to work with.

I would give out different advice for the OP than I would give to Carl if he asked me the same question for the same shot situation. I know where Carl is on several BH situations and what I would tell him would be a failure if the OP tried it.

I am not an elite amateur player, nor will I become one If I train the ret of my life, but I know technique, I know biomechanics, I know how adults work, I know how to evaluate, I know how to develop someone with progression, instead of hammering an endstate like you do with kids.

Anyone feel free to unleash Goon Squad on me, Carl is reprograming my high speed second-hand phone evasion algorithm and right now is a bad time for me to get chased and survive.

Ilcane1
07-24-2019, 07:18 AM
Thank you guys. I will share my video probably this afternoon vs my robot.
Another question: vs heavy backspin ball (without sidespin) is it preferable to hit the ball on its side, where there is less spin?
I will post some videos with different spins and depths, i'd like to find my way to be ready to give back aggressive strokes the most i can, for my game my coach said i need to play fast.

Hysteresis
07-24-2019, 07:32 AM
Thank you guys. I will share my video probably this afternoon vs my robot.
Another question: vs heavy backspin ball (without sidespin) is it preferable to hit the ball on its side, where there is less spin?
I will post some videos with different spins and depths, i'd like to find my way to be ready to give back aggressive strokes the most i can, for my game my coach said i need to play fast.

It depends if you are talking about shots over the table or behind the table. But generally speaking if you "need to play fast", that necessitates a shorter stroke, and you are better off taking the ball a bit from the side rather than trying to overpower the spin on the ball, which usually requires a fuller stroke when the spin is heavy.

Ilcane1
07-24-2019, 09:11 AM
For "fast play" i mean my best gameplay emerges when i have less reaction time (when i think too much i take the wrong choice or i change my strokes too late and i mistake)

Der_Echte
07-24-2019, 03:24 PM
One example is a BH opening loop approach vs a long or half long underspin.

In general, I favor opening with heavy spin. Usually, this will mean a slow heavy spin that may bounce up a little or a little-lot. To make this shot, you would cock wrist, squat down, get wrist between legs, let ball come down and lift up explode up/forward.

When I make this spin, it is darned difficult to handle, except really loosen up and block it off the bounce. A player could try to crush it, but that timing is difficult and lower percentage.

I also believe in being able to bh open loop at medium and fast speeds too.

A long time coach in my area, who plays around 3 to 4 levels better than me, advocates the fast loop... cocking wrist, getting down some, and exploding mostly forward. Impact is on the rise, sometimes at top of bounce.

His rationale is that the modern game requires shots to be executed quicker and carry big speed to pressure the opponent. This coach agrees is is much easier to land the heavy slow ball.

I cannot disagree with that in priciple. That is a true concern at the higher levels, maybe the lower ones too.

The player he was advising to make this kind of quick fast opener is an O60 gent several levels above average CV lub level... Mid 1700s California level.

Sure, landing the on the tise fast loop can be troubling, but this player loses a lot of consistency on heavy low bouncing underspin long balls to the degree of pretty much giving away the point every time trying to attempt that shot.



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Der_Echte
07-24-2019, 03:34 PM
So...

The real question ought to be what is appropriate for the level to succeed and what is right to do to for strategic growth.

That coach did not address that. He simply hammered the modern concept.

This approach is appropriate for strategic development of child junior players growing into the high and elite amateur levels.

I do not believe that approach is effective for the majority of developing adult players.

You will see Next Level and some others asking this question all the time.

What is an appropriate shot selection given the player level and quality of such and such ball? What should be an immediate action and what should be a strategic growth priority?

These are the things to be more readily addressed with an adult learner and I would say not every coach is good with developing adults. Actually, very few are good at that. It takes consideration of player, their abilities, and the goals. It requires a really flexible approach.

Not many coaches are that flexible. I wish more were.

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aIex
07-24-2019, 03:45 PM
I'm garbage at BH.

Der_Echte
07-24-2019, 03:46 PM
Getting to why I favor heavy spin...

There are several advantages.

1) I land that shot with higher percentage.
2) My heavy opener is a really low percentage ball to attack.
3) I do not piss away the point right away

Those advantages above to me are really good reasons at my lev err l th o DC o th hat.

The level of player that other coach in my area... they t rye y to counter my heavy topspin and land the counter under 20% of the time.

This shows me that my opener is still a good thing to do up to 3+ levels above my current level.

I have no need to be a speed freak right now, unless it is a high ball.

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Der_Echte
07-24-2019, 03:53 PM
Thank you guys. I will share my video probably this afternoon vs my robot.
Another question: vs heavy backspin ball (without sidespin) is it preferable to hit the ball on its side, where there is less spin?
I will post some videos with different spins and depths, i'd like to find my way to be ready to give back aggressive strokes the most i can, for my game my coach said i need to play fast.My quick answer vs a long heavy underspin is to dip the hips down, cock wrist, drop it between legs, allow ball to descend to around table level and explode upwards a little forward.

This is an easy shot to do if you get the biomechanics down. I developed this BH loop in a couple months just reading Larry Hodges tt book when I was a recreational player.

You could also take it on the rise around net high and forward swing fast loop blast it. That is a much more difficult stroke to develoop, but it is deadly.

Ask yourself, do you want consistency and good quality, or continually lose the point while it takes forever to grow a fast loop on rise?

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Der_Echte
07-24-2019, 03:54 PM
Your explosion will handle the incoming spin just fine, no need to concern self about impacting on the side.

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Der_Echte
07-24-2019, 03:57 PM
If you are trying to play fast and have not developed the st rye jokes for it, then you will lose points and matches real fast.

However, if you are growing these fast play strokes as a part of strategic development and are willing to lose games, go for it. You will be better down the road if you have a capacity to develop these shots.

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