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View Full Version : Topspin arc with a slow soft (defensive) blade



mart1nandersson
10-25-2019, 09:41 PM
I was recently advised by a coach to switch to a much slower blade after a multi ball session. He has coached several very good LP players like Åkerström so I didn't argue and went ahead and bought a Stiga Defensive Classic as he couldn't specify exactly what would be good for me.

The effect on my LP chops has been amazing. So much more confidence and loopers are netting balls left right and centre.

Now all of a sudden I have a new issue. The issue is my FH looping game. It's not used that often but it's kinda important when players challenge my FH side as my FH chopping is really weak. My FH loop touch is quite alright (according to a former national coach) but with this blade I'm netting balls very frequently. Normally I miss loops by going long or I pop them up due to poor timing (i.e. hitting it too late). But with this setup it seems really hard to produce any kind of arc. Loops that I'm normally comfortable with isn't working.

My question in short: Is it even feasible to loop confidently with a REALLY soft and slow blade? Switching to something like T05 isn't an option as I (try to) twiddle quite often and my BH isn't compatible with T05 at all.

Old setup: Victas Koji Matsushita + Tibhar Grass D.TecS + Nittaku FastArc C-1
New setup: Stiga Defensive Classive + Tibhar Grass D.TecS 0 Nittaku FastArc G-1

Lula
10-27-2019, 07:22 AM
I think you Will be able to adjust your strokes with time.

I think you should try a really slow tacky rubber on the forehand so you could more easily learn how to chop with the forehand. Is proably good for your style of play aswell as long it is not rockhard.

Hysteresis
10-27-2019, 08:06 AM
My question in short: Is it even feasible to loop confidently with a REALLY soft and slow blade? Switching to something like T05 isn't an option as I (try to) twiddle quite often and my BH isn't compatible with T05 at all.


Having not tried many blades/rubbers, so take my 2 cents with a grain of salt.

But I feel the answer to your question is: Yes, you can loop confidently with a very slow blade, but your stroke will be very different, and very uncomfortable if you are used to a 'normal' forehand stroke.

As someone using a very slow blade by modern standards, and a very dead rubber (hurricane 3, non-Neo, untuned, unboosted) that probably wouldn't be bad for chopping. My experience with the setup (which i'm starting not to like, and will be replacing with slightly softer rubbers when they wear out), is that:

The throw angle is just uncomfortably high. Not as in, 'I need to adjust my stroke' high, but actually 'I need to be playing a different stroke' high.

On almost entirely brushing stroke (which is how I forehand loop anyway), the ball comes off nearly parallel to the blade. So unless i'm playing a very soft controlled loop, I have to be playing the shot nearly horizontal just to get the ball to land on the table, actually slightly downwards if the ball is higher than a couple of centimeters above the net.

If you want to put any kinda of power into the shot, the trajectory of your stroke has to be almost entirely fowards (like maybe only 10-20 degrees off the horizontal when contacting the ball at table height), otherwise your shot will go up, and not come down until meters past the end of the table.

In my head, a 'normal forehand stroke' is still supposed to have an upwards component, like 30 to 45 degrees from the horizontal, and it's constantly a mental struggle to flatten out the stroke horizontally. If I mentally slip momentarily, ball goes meters past the table. If I overestimate the underspin on a ball and play a 'normal forehand' to lift the ball up, ball goes meters past the table, if i get cramped up and have to play a forehand close to my body but still want power on the shot? Yep, you guessed it, ball goes meters past the table.

I feel like the problem with a really slow setup is not the lack of speed/power, I feel like a brushing stroke with very little blade behind the ball still gives plenty of speed (this might just be the tackiness of the H3), because all the momentum of the shot is going fowards rather than up, but the problem is the stroke is incredibly uncomfortable.

You'd think a shot that is so dependent on brushing would create a high arc from the spin, but nope. The ball skids off the table, but doesn't seem to arc very much in the air.

mart1nandersson
10-27-2019, 08:28 AM
I think you Will be able to adjust your strokes with time.

I think you should try a really slow tacky rubber on the forehand so you could more easily learn how to chop with the forehand. Is proably good for your style of play aswell as long it is not rockhard.

Thanks for the advice!

Do you know any rubbers in this category? I tried our coach's setup which had Haifu Whale and it was soft and tacky. Impossible to find though. I been thinking along those lines as well but playing BH with a tacky rubber is not easy. May as well use T05 then?

I'll give this setup some more weeks.

Lula
10-27-2019, 02:16 PM
I Do not know how long you have been playing But i recommend a really slow tacky rubber for forehand. With this you can learn to chop with the forehand.

When i was coached by Thalin and Sjöberg they Did like this with the guys that were defenders.

They chopped with the backhand and with the forehand and when they mastered the forehand chop they could go to something faster that they actually could kill the ball with.

So i recommend you to Do the same. I think twiddle and loop backhand makes your game to difficult for now. Gustaf Ericsson does it But i think his backhand loop is much better than his forehand loop so Maybe he need to Do this. Would be interesting to discuss if he could develop his game further and become even better if he worked on his forehand stroke instead? But everyone have different playingstyle and should Do What work for them. If you want to twiddle i think you should Chop the first balls before you come further back in the court.

Try talking to Japsko and explain your playingstyle. You Will get much better advice from them regarding this than from here.

darucla
10-27-2019, 02:39 PM
I have been experimenting with slower blades lately. FYI, my normal match setup is H301 with H3 National Blue sponge (which I may change back to simple H3 Neo) and Loki GTX.. So I am predisposed to like tacky rubber.

Because I am am getting older (68), I have been trying some slower stuff. My favourite blade of the ones I have tried (inc JSH, Grubba, Sword 309) is the BTY Matsushita Pro Model. I haven't tried either of your blades, so not sure of comparisons. But I have been impressed with H3 Neo, straight from the packet, on the FH of the MPM. Looping is very controlled, and, although I rarely chop, that also works, as does almost everything else. i think it is worth your while to try it. At some point, I will use this combination in the league, as I get more more confident with the LP on the BH. I am trying to attack with the LP.
As for the blade, who knows? I cannot guarantee a supply of discontinued MPMs, so am looking at others. The Grubba All+ seems promising.

mart1nandersson
10-27-2019, 02:49 PM
Lula: The advice came from Lars Borg during the Japsko training camp. I guess that the issue is that I’m not defensive in my nature. My instinct is to loop on the FH and chop with the BH. Twiddling is mainly a thing I do when returning serves as pretty much all opponents try to serve long no-spin to the LP. I’ll it give a week or two and will for sure contact Japsko if it still doesn’t work.

mart1nandersson
10-27-2019, 03:08 PM
Darcula: I’ve used H3 quite a bit and I guess that it’s great for chopping but I’m not interested in completely changing my FH as I’ve spent a ridiculous amount of time on my current FH loop.

Hitting with LP is great fun. I’ve tried a lot of different LP rubbers and Dornenglanz and Death (by Metal TT) are really good at this but are not so good when it comes to chopping.

darucla
10-27-2019, 03:21 PM
It's because everyone is different that life is still fun. I am not interested in chopping, as I have watched people like JSH, and think I would have to move so much more than I do in an attacking game... Incidentally, i have FastArc G1 on the JSH FH, and it works OK, but I think the JSH may be much faster than the Stga Def blade.

Darcula: I’ve used H3 quite a bit and I guess that it’s great for chopping but I’m not interested in completely changing my FH as I’ve spent a ridiculous amount of time on my current FH loop.

Hitting with LP is great fun. I’ve tried a lot of different LP rubbers and Dornenglanz and Death (by Metal TT) are really good at this but are not so good when it comes to chopping.

LordPippington
10-27-2019, 03:28 PM
Victas 401 is great for that type. I use it on my big, slow over-sized defensive blades and can still crank out MEGA LOOPS!

It won't be as fast as the much quicker, higher catapult rubbers... but the spin can be insane, and it's wonderful to chop with.

If you want something fast to attack with, I'd pick a somewhat harder rubber with good spring. Tenergy 05 hard, mx-s, victas stiff, or butterfly spinart for example.

mart1nandersson
10-27-2019, 03:53 PM
It's because everyone is different that life is still fun. I am not interested in chopping, as I have watched people like JSH, and think I would have to move so much more than I do in an attacking game... Incidentally, i have FastArc G1 on the JSH FH, and it works OK, but I think the JSH may be much faster than the Stga Def blade.

I tried the JSH (and Diode V) for about 3 months. Amazing on the FH side but way too fast for my chopping skills.

The Victas Koji Matsushita is a few steps down from the JSH. The Stiga Defensive Classic is even slower (ALL or even slower).

darucla
10-27-2019, 04:17 PM
The Victas Koji Matsushita is a few steps down from the JSH. The Stiga Defensive Classic is even slower (ALL or even slower).
I would have thought so. I have a Stiga All Original Classic, and that is slower than the JSH. I do wonder what the difference is between the Victas and Butterfly iterations of the Matsushita blade. I have a black tag version, and I suspect it may be slower.

mart1nandersson
10-27-2019, 08:52 PM
I would have thought so. I have a Stiga All Original Classic, and that is slower than the JSH. I do wonder what the difference is between the Victas and Butterfly iterations of the Matsushita blade. I have a black tag version, and I suspect it may be slower.

I’m sure that there’re lots of threads comparing the two Matsushita blades on OOAK.

The VKM is OFF-. I can do everything with the Korbel that I can do with the VKM. A little bit too fast when blocking for my taste.

NextLevel
10-27-2019, 11:05 PM
I would have recommended that you go in the opposite direction and get a faster rubber like T64. It is great for away from the table loops on all kinds of blades including slow ones

mart1nandersson
10-27-2019, 11:42 PM
I would have recommended that you go in the opposite direction and get a faster rubber like T64. It is great for away from the table loops on all kinds of blades including slow ones

Why not. 64 and 25 are the only ones that I haven't tried.