PDA

View Full Version : Serving to a Pusher/Chopper



Zain Khan
11-03-2019, 03:51 AM
Hi friends,

I have been struggling a lot lately with a handful of players I'm running into that play extremely conservative.

Personally, I am most comfortable playing topspin to topspin away from the table, but I am running into these players (usually out of shape or older) that never want to do anything but push, and they are dang good at it.

A common, and rather frustrating technique they all seem to use is chopping my topspin serves. I try to serve short or long topspin against them, and they will immediately chop the ball back with so much backspin that I can't attack it. Granted my loops against backspin aren't perfect, but I still feel like I am the one taking the bigger risk looping instead of pushing, and then getting stuck in a "push-off" that they usually win.

Any particular serves or tips I can use to counter this?

Thanks!

Takkyu_wa_inochi
11-03-2019, 04:26 AM
Learn how to loop against backspin

zeio
11-03-2019, 04:38 AM
Your topspin serve is not strong enough.

Loopadoop
11-03-2019, 05:06 AM
Serve long fast backspin to their weakest side then attack return.

Lula
11-03-2019, 05:42 AM
Need to explain if they have long pimple of some sort. If No i agree with above. Strong topspin serve. With good placement because they are older. Or learn to loop against backspin. strong backspin serve Will also give you a somewhat Nospin return.

Der_Echte
11-03-2019, 05:57 AM
Learn how to loop against backspin

That would also be Der_Echte's default response... and it is... but looking at the OP's post, OP will not immediately become a juggernaut at looping underspin this month.

So, the comment would be an excellent strategic goal.

Adult learners who want to grow level need to learn how to recognize what is going on and have some ways to cope and make things predictable and/or more manageable... to make the rally play to what they do well.

If the OP can hit or loop a long medium high ball. one thing would be to make a DEAD or very light push to the middle or wide angle. This, vs someone dead set on returning with an underspin, often produces a light underspin that is higher and longer than opponent wanted - a nice ball to declare RABBIT SEASON... sometimes the opponent hits that out and looks at the bat.

Another thing to do is serve very fast and deep right at their body. Discover where their middle is - it is different for everyone. Serve fast and deep with sidespin and underspin, changing the amount of underspin from heavy to light. That will get back a weak ball you can pound or open on.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMe_4RmU3-4

langel
11-03-2019, 06:12 AM
Long and fast back spin serve may help generally, but you have to learn to attack effectively both cut and top spinned returns. It seams that you prefer longer distance and to loop taking the ball lower. That way you have more time for reaction, but if you are not aggressive enough your opponent will have time enough too and choose to cut, push, loop or attack. Try to take the ball more early at a higher position, some pushes can be attacked even short over the table, use every chance to attack, the negative play will always give advantage to the more experienced player, even if older and slower.

Kuba Hajto
11-03-2019, 08:09 AM
My preferred way to deal with them is to do high energy rather fast long sidespin backspin backhand serve to their backhand side. When they push receive 90% of the time balls go to the net or left to the table.

When receiving I lift the ball. Usually when the respond the ball is high enough to loop it.

merlin el mago
11-03-2019, 09:16 AM
The best service against long pips are long without no top spin or back spin = flat, placed in the middle of his body a little bit oriented to the LP side to create doubt & difficult return.

LP players like me loves any kind of top or back spin and we use it to win the game.

UpSideDownCarl
11-03-2019, 11:30 AM
I think there is a lot of good advice so far.

Long term goal: Learning to loop backspin well enough that you use this to your advantage.

Serving: lots of good advice: I like the deadball serve to the body advice; but you have to keep varying the spin. So, more spin, less spin, top, side, backspin; do not do the same thing every time. Change up the spin.

Last thing:::::: for guys who like to push and chop, especially the older guys who don't move so well, HIGH BALLS are not so easy to push or chop. For the short term, as a strategic thing, hitting a return that is deep and very high with A LOT of topspin, ideally top and side spin, would make these players have to move out of their comfort zone.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MAtwZle-xo

merlin el mago
11-03-2019, 12:05 PM
Against LP no push only top spin all balls deep.

Baal
11-03-2019, 12:16 PM
Serve dead (lowspin) balls. Alternate short and very deep.

yogi_bear
11-03-2019, 01:02 PM
Alternate placement of loops on wide angles.

thomas.pong
11-03-2019, 01:03 PM
Learn how to loop against backspin

And to flick!!

Also, it's ok to push it back at times as many times as you need, but really try to put them in a position where they have to push the ball a little to far or high and be ready to open up. That means being patient at times, varying the depth and placement of your pushes and staying ready to attack with good leg positioning.

thomas.pong
11-03-2019, 01:05 PM
That would also be Der_Echte's default response... and it is... but looking at the OP's post, OP will not immediately become a juggernaut at looping underspin this month.

So, the comment would be an excellent strategic goal.

Adult learners who want to grow level need to learn how to recognize what is going on and have some ways to cope and make things predictable and/or more manageable... to make the rally play to what they do well.

If the OP can hit or loop a long medium high ball. one thing would be to make a DEAD or very light push to the middle or wide angle. This, vs someone dead set on returning with an underspin, often produces a light underspin that is higher and longer than opponent wanted - a nice ball to declare RABBIT SEASON... sometimes the opponent hits that out and looks at the bat.

Another thing to do is serve very fast and deep right at their body. Discover where their middle is - it is different for everyone. Serve fast and deep with sidespin and underspin, changing the amount of underspin from heavy to light. That will get back a weak ball you can pound or open on.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMe_4RmU3-4

Great response!

Takkyu_wa_inochi
11-03-2019, 01:20 PM
I won a 5-set thriller against a good chopper yesterday.

Of course i would always serve long to his LP (except the occasional serve to his FH to surprise him), and NEVER SHORT to his LP
if I serve topspin -> the ball will get back with backspin i loop to wide FH next with max of spin. sometimes long, sometimes very short and slow going off the side of the table, its very difficult for opponent to control especially if he's already moved away from the table.
If i serve backspin -> the ball will get back with topspin or knuckle (because some of my serves don't have so much spin), i prefer again to play to wide FH but i try to have an earlier timing and close the racket more. I try not to attack too strong the risk of making an over miss is high
If i serve no spin -> i expect to surprise him and have a high return and attack strongly (flat hit or strong drive) the next ball.

Of course, if any of the return is high, I will flat hit to kill the ball, or attack strongly to the BH side with a drive. And if its an unexpected return, then i block or do whatever to put the ball back on the table, usually the guy is a defender and won't attack it.

The important thing also is to vary the serve placement. Even I aim the BH side, sometimes i aim more the body, especially for the nospin serve. sometimes try to make the ball go off the side of the table.

maybe i will try to develop some other serves serving from FH side or middle of the table. its interesting to have more weapons and possibilities

And....

i think it was a bit specific to my opponent yesterday but he really didn't like when i served side+topspin with my BH from my FH side to his BH side (like Ovtcharov). Because naturally from this position he needs to cover the wide FH which is not his favoured side (no pimples there) and if the ball goes to his BH its a fast ball with side spin difficult to adjust. I got many cheap points in game 4 and especially 5 (only did this towards the end) and I won the match thanks to this serve.

brokenball
11-03-2019, 10:55 PM
I am one of those old men that will play with blocking or chopping LPs. Yes, top spin serve are easy to get back unless you mix the serves up with short back spin serves.

I agree with the comment above. Learn to loop back spin. There is a trick to it. Above all, don't reach forward, wait for the ball and make sure your stroke is up with a little forward motion and not forward then up. Sometimes the backspin is so strong the ball does not bounce out at you so you must move your body up so you don't reach forward. There are exceptions. People above mentioned flat hitting high returns. That works.

UpSideDownCarl
11-04-2019, 02:33 AM
Alternate placement of loops on wide angles.

If he said he is uncomfortable looping backspin, I am not really sure how this is helpful. Learning how to loop backspin would come long before where you place the ball when you loop.

yogi_bear
11-04-2019, 02:43 AM
If he said he is uncomfortable looping backspin, I am not really sure how this is helpful. Learning how to loop backspin would come long before where you place the ball when you loop.

He can actually learn both at the same time and it starts with a multiball drill. If he just practices 3rd attacks with a partner, it will take longer.

Der_Echte
11-04-2019, 03:37 AM
From what the OP is saying, AND reading a bit into his post + knowing what it is like in most USA places for TT...

I seriously doubt that the OP

- is playing in a real full time club that has a coach(es)

- is taking any lessons or is going to take coaching lessons soon

- is in a position to do any multi-ball (cannot do that in a 2-3 hr 2x a week USA "Club" or rec center)

- is around high level amateurs who can show him the "how"

- can actually get in enough meaningful reps supervised to make any real progress anytime soon

- is around anyone who can give him meaningful/useful tactical advice

- is in a position to learn how to whip it enough to loop medium or heavy underspin high percentage with quality

- is actually playing long/often enough (like several hrs at least 3-4x a week) vs high level amateurs showing him anything

- knows how to get out of a push rally at USATT 1500 level to take over point decisively

******

All of us saying "Do this" (Loop Underspin !!") or "Do This" (Loop variation) or advise him to HOWL AT THE MOON every odd point are not providing any meaningful feedback that will move this player forward.

Learning to loop underspin high percentage with quality... while it is a great longer term goal to have... is something this OP will not achieve today, next week, next month, or at any time before the Champions League Finals are played.

For this, it would be more beneficial to lay out the progression for the long term goal, or provide some things that can be employed to mitigate this issue of inability to attack incoming heavy underspin with any acceptable percentage or quality.

That is why I clearly said it is a strategic goal and provided several things that could be used right away to make the situation more controllable. Comments that will do that would help the OP the most and at TTD and other forums, we as players wanting to help are sometimes acting real silly.

Takkyu_wa_inochi
11-04-2019, 05:09 AM
given all the above, and knowing this is USA, maybe he should take baseball, basketball or american football instead ?

burhanayan
11-04-2019, 06:13 AM
If the chopper doesn't attack backspin balls, push long, then play topspin. Even the players with 1600-1800 TTR points do it.

Here is the scenario;
You: long dead serve(with variation in placement)
Chopper: chops
You: play topspin because first ball from long pips mostly comes with very light backspin.
Chopper: chops
You: if you aren't confident in playing topspin against very strong backspin, try to play drop shot. Holding racket in backspin position will do the job.
Chopper: lifts the ball(light topspin)
You: if ball comes short, you are lucky. You will have very wide angle. Play counter topspin against these light topspin balls. If ball is long, you may target your opponent's body, because choppers have a big transition point. You will catch him off guard.

Play like above until you find a high shot. Of course playing against wide angles is not easy. Don't forget to vary placement deep and wide either.

Sent from Tapatalk

SkySowers
11-04-2019, 02:22 PM
In my opinion, if you notice that your opponent is returning a heavy backspin to you, you need to realize if you can loop that backspin or not. If yes, then keep practicing looping the ball. Whether it goes in or not, then you are practicing that. I wouldn't rush into looping it hard also. I would focus on soft loop returns and placement.

Your opponent is trying to make you uncomfortable, that is their goal. So why don't you try to return the backspin by just lifting the ball and give it to your opponent short. That should lose the spin a little bit so if they try to chop it hard again it will pop up higher then you are in a better position to consistently attack the ball.

If they won't give you the opportunity to do topspins, which is your style of play, then you have to learn how to create it for yourself.

perham
11-04-2019, 06:27 PM
All really good advice here. I had the exact same problem two years ago. Honestly speaking, even today I’m not always in position to loop a fast chop coming my way. The way I overcame this strategy is to become good at pushing back, and therefore getting much easier returns to loop. Varying the placement and speed of your pushes is a great way to force your opponent into a mistake, however it takes time before you’re confident enough to pounce on the opportunity to kill the point. I would say whatever strategy you choose, just remember that you must lose some points at first to become confident with your play, so don’t just revert back to the ‘safe’ option you used to do and keep practicing your ‘new’ strategy. You’ll get more comfortable over time and eventually will find yourself playing against such players with ease.

suds79
11-04-2019, 06:57 PM
I remember back in the day when I use to be in the shoes of the OP here.

Now I love it when people chop my serves. I'd much prefer that than them attack it.

OP you just need to get better at looping backspin. Imagine if your opponents knew that's suicide vs you. That's where you need to be.

One of the best setups one can learn is to have a really good backspin serve that almost forces one to push it back long, and you loop regardless. You'll get real good at that shot real fast. And you'll find that with their help on top of your loop, it's so much spin, it's hard for them to get that next ball back.

One tip about serving topspin to these people that I didn't learn until sometime later. Anytime you serve topspin and someone pushes it or chops it AND is able to keep it relatively low (a high ball doesn't matter), know that ball is even heavier than normal. You'll really have to pick that ball up. IMO it's more than say if you serve backspin and they simply push back. But once you know that? You make the adjustment and it's easy going from there. Just have to be able to recognize it.

CroneOne
11-04-2019, 07:59 PM
I'm going to agree with the people suggesting to advance your convert backspin to topspin game. A pusher will do well until you get that topspin going. Then the attack/advantage becomes yours. If the pusher is a good blocker/retriever, you'll have to be patient with your attacks. Place them around, waiting for a weak block.

mart1nandersson
11-04-2019, 10:48 PM
The solution is to glue long pips on the BH and learn how to hit with them ;)

Pushers are a godsend to LP players.

perham
11-05-2019, 11:03 AM
The solution is to glue long pips on the BH and learn how to hit with them ;)

Pushers are a godsend to LP players.

I always wondered what the gain is when people spread pure evil [emoji48] [emoji23][emoji23]