Advice on equipment for improving

ContraDL · Mar 23, 2020

Hello!

I am 25 years old, used to get some lessons about strokes technique, got some decent practice vs robots and had access to a coach for couple of lessons. There he explained proper technique in basic strokes and helped me understand how to take a shot. This was over 1.5 years ago. Before that I used to play with my friends and from time to time, I went to the local club. Now I mostly play with my father who visits local club 1-2 per week.

I started to play more and I started thinking about equipment. I like my equipment, but also have extra bucks to spend. For me, I just like nice things. I fully understand that practise and proper technique are 95 % of your game.. or even more. But after all, I like to ponder what could I change or try. I got a new bat for my bday present couple of years ago. It has Butterfly Viscaria blade with maxed Butterfly 05 on each side.

What I realised when playing (and trying different bats, for example; my younger brother has Sriver and 5-ply wood racket, while my dad has Butterfly Primorac with Butterfly T80 on each side) is that I like how I can make more accurate strokes and have more control over ball if using wooden racket. I was impressed at how the difference was felt, but I didn't play long with them since I was not used to it, so I quickly changed back to Viscaria. The troubles I have (and mind you, it probably have to do with technique also, but I am able to notice difference when using different bats) is that for example; top spin has high arc, if I not execute stroke in good detail. Also, the ball can away (over the table in some cases).

I don't mind having slower ball, I just want to keep learning. Is it okey to keep using Viscaria?

I really enjoy watching Chinese table tennis. And was taken an interest into tacky chinese rubbers for FH. Since I am looking to mix things up, was interested at your thoughts about trying some DHS Hurricane 3 Neo and pair it with current set-up. I was also thinking of keeping setup I have and buy allwood blade and put on it Hurricane 3 NEO with some European rubber on BH. You guys think I should switch to allwood blade? Is trying tacky rubber foolish idea? If I put Neo on FH, will it change things anyway or is the ALC blade the difference maker here?

Thanks for all your answers! Have a great day

burhanayan · Mar 23, 2020

Although your current setup is very common, it doesn't mean it is best for you. Viscaria has hard outer layer and carbon layer is just below that. It requires crisper contact. If your strokes are not stable enough at high racket speed, you won't generate good spin.

You can fix this dwell time issue at FH with a tacky rubber. Then you have to adjust your technique(less hitting, more brushing).

If you don't have proper contact and racket speed, you can't generate good topspin consistently.

Because you played 1 and a half year with Viscaria, using Allround blade might be slow for you and you might bored with it easily.

IMHO, you can play better with an all wood OFF 7 ply with same rubbers. If you want to stick with carbon and have allwood feeling, you may use inner carbon blades.

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UpSideDownCarl · Mar 23, 2020

I have to be honest, there is not much anyone can tell you that will be anywhere near the mark if we have not seen you play. Is there any chance you can post a video with a short amount of you hitting. It could simply be 15 seconds of FHs and 15 seconds of BHs. It could also be 30-45 seconds of match play or match play simulation.

Seeing what you are doing and how the equipment you are using is working for you would make it possible to see if what you have is good for you and you should just stick to it, or, if something else would be better for you.

But based on some of the things you have said, a 5 ply all wood blade may be good for you.

H3....There is a chance it would be good for you. But there is a chance you will hate it and think it is really REALLY slow. That would actually depend on your technique. There are certain ways to contact the ball that work better for Tenergy and rubbers like it. And there are certain ways to contact the ball that work better for H3. Trying it will be fine. But you should know, some people try and really just don't like it. Others try and love it.

Ray · Mar 23, 2020

Here's one advice from coach Larry Hodges that may be useful:

https://butterflyonline.com/advanced-sponge-but-no-so-fast-blades/

UpSideDownCarl · Mar 23, 2020

Ray said:
Here's one advice from coach Larry Hodges that may be useful:

https://butterflyonline.com/advanced-sponge-but-no-so-fast-blades/

Great article. I agree with it 100%. Some think I am crazy when I tell them to get max sponge. T05 with Max sponge is fine if you put it on a blade you can handle. That also forces you to learn to read spin and compensate for it sooner.

NextLevel · Mar 23, 2020

No it is not okay to keep using the Viscaria. Any 5 ply all wood blade is better to develop your game. As for rubbers, I think until one reaches USATT 1800 or TTR 1400 or even a bit beyond, the fastest rubber one should use is Vega Pro or Vega X even if that. Fastarc G1 or C1 as well. The price and the way it plays make sense until you get more serious.

UpSideDownCarl · Mar 23, 2020

NextLevel said:
No it is not okay to keep using the Viscaria. Any 5 ply all wood blade is better to develop your game. As for rubbers, I think until one reaches USATT 1800 or TTR 1400 or even a bit beyond, the fastest rubber one should use is Vega Pro or Vega X even if that. Fastarc G1 or C1 as well. The price and the way it plays make sense until you get more serious.

If you really want to improve, what NextLevel says is pretty true. But, still, without seeing how you play and how you handle the equipment you have, we cannot have a real idea of what will actually be best for you.

Der_Echte · Mar 24, 2020

I have a long history of saying that there is more than one way to go about business.

Very often, it is the pundits' advice of a slower blade and slower rubbers that I write against.

I do that as there is more than one way.

The basic reasons, if we boil them down are that with a slower wood blade and medium speed/spin rubbers, you will feel the ball and feel it when you do not strike it right. That is valuable feedback. Another important aspect is with such a setup, you develop deeper striking ability with time if you have coaching and someone giving you corrections. Another important aspect is instead of hitting lasers, you tend to learn how to construct a point - be more patient. That often helps right away and down the road.

LATER, the majority of the aspects take effect and the player is in a much better position to transition to equipment that makes it easier to do the main things he/she does.

I do not have any government of privately funded studies to back this up, but only a decade plus of doing it, seeing it work (or not), and watching it work for others.

The way of the pundit in this situation is backed by decades of effectiveness. As much as I say the pundit's way is not the only way, it is tried and true for the reasons I described and for more reasons I did not.

Some coaches violently disagree with some of the things I show players in local clubs - often saying it is no longer "modern" (like using an upward swing motion and more graze to make a safer, very heavy topspin rather than a forward swing and fast loop).

(Next Level rightfully brings this point up a very often) Advice and coaching should be received with an ability to understand, discern what is happening, and how it applies to immediate and future aspect of YOUR game at YOUR level and YOUR play style of strategy and tactics. All advice does not work for everyone all the time in every situation.

The very thing I often get berated for showing a player one level above USATT average club level is the safe, heavy loop vs underspin... this very piece of advice I hear it all the time from higher level coaches that it is no longer valid in the "modern game".

One should with all advice, know the context and applicability of advice.

In the one example I gave, the slow, heavy loop would be a crappy first option for a 2400+ player. Maybe even Dan is not that level (but was a couple above that in younger years before injury). Even 2300+ players do not kill my heavy loop more than 30% of their attempts to kill it. Sounds like a good ratio to me. Even 2000 level players do not handle heavy slow topspin very well. (in fact, many fast bang-bang players simply hate the spin and slow timing and cannot cope at all)

That is why I say one should understand the reasoning, the intent, the effects, the applicability and the levels of the aspects of a TT player's game when determining if some advice is good or bad or neutral.

The advice most posters here are giving about avoiding the "fast" equipment for now are well accepted for the reasons I described and as well as the reasons they described.

Der_Echte · Mar 24, 2020

The reason high level coaches do not like seeing me tell an adult player how to make a safe, heavy topspin shot vs underspin...

The high level coaches are trying to get their players (90%+ kids) to get on a path to high performance, whether that is 2200, 2300, 2400, or contend to be on junior national team. At the level 2400+, most opening heavy slow topspin gets killed if opponent is at the table.

In that context and level, the slow heavy topspin is asking to lose the point if opponent is ready at the table, which they often are.

The high level coaches, at some point before the player reaches a certain level, has to get the players' habits changed to ones that will lead to behaviors that lead to successful play at the desired level, even if that means transitioning to that style several levels before they make it to that level.

So, I would believe a high level coach's disapproval of my first choice would be justified if I was talking to player on track to make it to near-elite amateur level.

If I am talking to a club level player, different. At that level, almost no one knows how to cope with that ball... and it is very easy and consistent to produce that ball in a match after enough training.

yogi_bear · Mar 24, 2020

Any 5 ply all wood blade with vega pro or vega japan 2.0mm is much better than using viscaria in your case.

Simas · Mar 25, 2020

ContraDL said:
Hello!

What I realised when playing (and trying different bats, for example; my younger brother has Sriver and 5-ply wood racket, while my dad has Butterfly Primorac with Butterfly T80 on each side) is that I like how I can make more accurate strokes and have more control over ball if using wooden racket. I was impressed at how the difference was felt, but I didn't play long with them since I was not used to it, so I quickly changed back to Viscaria. The troubles I have (and mind you, it probably have to do with technique also, but I am able to notice difference when using different bats) is that for example; top spin has high arc, if I not execute stroke in good detail. Also, the ball can away (over the table in some cases).

Of course everyone is different, but I know quite a lot of players who started with smth like viscaria or tb and then eventually switched to 5 ply. And the transition wasn't easy after playing with a more powerful blade (cause it's more fun), but as I understood it was worth in the end...

pingpongpaddy · Mar 25, 2020

Der_Echte said:
I have a long history of saying that there is more than one way to go about business.

Very often, it is the pundits' advice of a slower blade and slower rubbers that I write against.

I do that as there is more than one way.

The basic reasons, if we boil them down are that with a slower wood blade and medium speed/spin rubbers, you will feel the ball and feel it when you do not strike it right. That is valuable feedback. Another important aspect is with such a setup, you develop deeper striking ability with time if you have coaching and someone giving you corrections. Another important aspect is instead of hitting lasers, you tend to learn how to construct a point - be more patient. That often helps right away and down the road.

LATER, the majority of the aspects take effect and the player is in a much better position to transition to equipment that makes it easier to do the main things he/she does.

I do not have any government of privately funded studies to back this up, but only a decade plus of doing it, seeing it work (or not), and watching it work for others.

The way of the pundit in this situation is backed by decades of effectiveness. As much as I say the pundit's way is not the only way, it is tried and true for the reasons I described and for more reasons I did not.

Some coaches violently disagree with some of the things I show players in local clubs - often saying it is no longer "modern" (like using an upward swing motion and more graze to make a safer, very heavy topspin rather than a forward swing and fast loop).

(Next Level rightfully brings this point up a very often) Advice and coaching should be received with an ability to understand, discern what is happening, and how it applies to immediate and future aspect of YOUR game at YOUR level and YOUR play style of strategy and tactics. All advice does not work for everyone all the time in every situation.

The very thing I often get berated for showing a player one level above USATT average club level is the safe, heavy loop vs underspin... this very piece of advice I hear it all the time from higher level coaches that it is no longer valid in the "modern game".

One should with all advice, know the context and applicability of advice.

In the one example I gave, the slow, heavy loop would be a crappy first option for a 2400+ player. Maybe even Dan is not that level (but was a couple above that in younger years before injury). Even 2300+ players do not kill my heavy loop more than 30% of their attempts to kill it. Sounds like a good ratio to me. Even 2000 level players do not handle heavy slow topspin very well. (in fact, many fast bang-bang players simply hate the spin and slow timing and cannot cope at all)

That is why I say one should understand the reasoning, the intent, the effects, the applicability and the levels of the aspects of a TT player's game when determining if some advice is good or bad or neutral.

The advice most posters here are giving about avoiding the "fast" equipment for now are well accepted for the reasons I described and as well as the reasons they described.

TIMTOWTDI the call of the Perl programmer
THERE IS MORE THAN ONE WAY TO DO IT

BCamps93 · Mar 28, 2020

The Viscaria with 05 is a great setup; not necessarily in the hands of a beginner. The hard outer carbon makes it an extremely fast, stiff blade. It is also very unforgiving when bad technique is used. HOWEVER, It is possible for you to learn with it; and some might say it can help by being so unforgiving. Be prepared to lose a lot of matches if you chose to go this way. I always thought it’s worse to have a blade that’s “too forgiving” and let’s you get away with improper technique.

I would keep the Viscaria since it’s a great setup for future use, and not spend too much on something to work with until you get to that level. My recommendation is a DHS Fang Bo Carbon (on sale for $40 from Tabletennis11 right now), and Tibhar MX-P/ EL-P ($40/sheet).
I still love using this blade. The carbon is more in the center of the blade. During short strokes it’s very tame, but has incredible speed when you take a full stroke. It also has a ton of feeling and dwell time; great for beginners all the way to advanced.

Don’t become too much of an equipment junkie. I’ve seen too many players spend thousands trying to find the right setup, only to be playing at the same level for years. Keep spending your money on lessons, practice and tournaments. It’s really the only way to get better and improve.

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