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davizoosk
04-04-2020, 08:59 PM
I'm feeling very late compared to Tomokazu Harimoto, who is already 16 years old and is at the top of the world ranking, I started practicing tt for now and I dream of becoming a professional, is it still possible? I'm very unmotivated.


I'm feeling very late compared to tomokazu harimoto, who is already 16 years old and is at the top of the world ranking, I started practicing tt for now and I dream of becoming a professional, is it still possible?

Takkyu_wa_inochi
04-04-2020, 09:10 PM
If professional == player playing in ITTF international tournaments on a regular basis NO
If professional == player playing in a small upper national league 99% NO 1% YES
If professional == professional coach in a local club 20% YES

davizoosk
04-04-2020, 09:26 PM
If professional == player playing in ITTF international tournaments on a regular basis NO
If professional == player playing in a small upper national league 99% NO 1% YES
If professional == professional coach in a local club 20% YES

reasons?

zyu81
04-04-2020, 09:36 PM
You left out a lot of key information. What is your level now? Do you have good coaching and training available to you? How much of your life are you able to dedicate to TT, are you just going to college in a few years, or do you have the money and time and resources to try to be a pro?

I am guessing it was a mistake when you said "I am very unmotivated"?

The chances of being world class, are very very very very very small. No matter what age you start. You can get to an elite national level having started late, there are several such examples, but again, the chances of that are still very very very small regardless of what age you started. So it really comes down to if you have talent, and money/time/resources for high level training.

Takkyu_wa_inochi
04-04-2020, 09:40 PM
the reason is that becoming pro is something very competitive. To make participate in the ITTF world tour on a regular basis, means you are among the top 200 players in the world. they all started playing table tennis when they were much younger than you are and have accumulated at your age already more than 10,000 hours of training when they were your age. Furthermore its much easier to learn at a young age, then at 15. it means to get to the same technical level just to get where they were at 15, you'd probably need twice more time, which brings you at 35, and your body will not be competitive anymore.... if you get the picture

maybe you excel at sports, and you're a trained athlete in another discipline since your youngest age. in this case, maybe you wouldn't need twice much time, but the idea is still there, its too late... there is simply no example of someone having achieved such a thing.

Furthermore, professionals in TT are not making a lot of money, only the ones at the very top.

Its probably way way easier for you to become a top lawyer, or a top doctor and make much more money than become a mediocre TT professional who'd end up coaching in a small club for little $$$. Even if you suck at school right now !

[@zyu81 OP said "i am started practising TT for now"]

davizoosk
04-04-2020, 09:50 PM
Well, I'm not a total beginner, I play ping-pong for a while, about 1 year. I can train at a club, up to 6 hours a week and play freely whenever I want. I am in the first year of high school, apart from the school that runs from 1 pm to 6 pm I have the whole day. I have a table at home and a returnboard, I haven't chosen a college subject or something yet. I know and master a little of most techniques. I think I still don't understand what it really is to be a professional.

zyu81
04-04-2020, 09:55 PM
Well, I'm not a total beginner, I play ping-pong for a while, about 1 year. I can train at a club, up to 6 hours a week and play freely whenever I want. I am in the first year of high school, apart from the school that runs from 1 pm to 6 pm I have the whole day. I have a table at home and a returnboard, I haven't chosen a college subject or something yet. I know and master a little of most techniques. I think I still don't understand what it really is to be a professional.

A more realistic goal for you would be, maybe, top 250 men (assuming you are a man) in your country, at some point in your life. Brazil has a lot of very good players. Even achieving that goal will be extremely difficult, but definitely something to be proud of if you can achieve it one day.

Maybe if you get to that level, you can play in nationwide leagues. That is a more realistic but still extremely difficult goal.

davizoosk
04-04-2020, 10:03 PM
A more realistic goal for you would be, maybe, top 250 men (assuming you are a man) in your country, at some point in your life. Brazil has a lot of very good players. Even achieving that goal will be extremely difficult, but definitely something to be proud of if you can achieve it one day.

Maybe if you get to that level, you can play in nationwide leagues. That is a more realistic but still extremely difficult goal.

yes, thanks for clarifying the reality, can you tell me if the National School Games (even if you live in Germany haha) can take me one step further? it happens here every year and I have two more years to participate (so I will try), is it something that gives me good progress?

piligrim
04-04-2020, 10:07 PM
Don't compare to Harimoto, he is exceptional

zyu81
04-04-2020, 10:08 PM
I'm not sure I understand the question. You become a better player through practice. Playing in a tournament is a good learning experience but it will not directly make you a better player.

davizoosk
04-04-2020, 10:10 PM
[CITAÇÃO = zyu81; 310692] Não sei se entendi a pergunta. Você se torna um jogador melhor através da prática. Jogar em um torneio é uma boa experiência de aprendizado, mas não o tornará diretamente um jogador melhor. [/ CITAÇÕES]

ok, thank you very much

yogi_bear
04-04-2020, 11:00 PM
Do not waste your time achieving something impossible. That is harsh but that is reality.

NextLevel
04-04-2020, 11:07 PM
Well, I'm not a total beginner, I play ping-pong for a while, about 1 year. I can train at a club, up to 6 hours a week and play freely whenever I want. I am in the first year of high school, apart from the school that runs from 1 pm to 6 pm I have the whole day. I have a table at home and a returnboard, I haven't chosen a college subject or something yet. I know and master a little of most techniques. I think I still don't understand what it really is to be a professional.

6 hours a week is nothing.

whocarez
04-04-2020, 11:09 PM
Sorry to disappoint you, but the chances of becoming a professional are almost none. If by professional you mean making a living from playing table tennis.

That being said, you can still become quite good, if you are willing to play at least a couple of times a week in a decent club. However, this requires that you absolutely focus on learning good technique and have access to a good coach in your club, and some practice partners that may teach and exercise with you. At least in my country, the biggest issue will be being able to train with a coach. Most coaches will focus on younger kids, but if you are lucky, maybe there is some organized training with a coach in your club that you can join.

If you are determined, then say in a 5 years time frame you should be able to have a lot of fun playing in a local league.

However, do not waste too much time on just training alone. Yes, you need that too, but you will get nowhere without good technique.

Baal
04-05-2020, 02:08 AM
What other sports are you good at? What do your friends mostly play?

sampletext
04-05-2020, 02:22 AM
I know too many people who tried to become a professional and never got anything out of it. In China, since there is so much competition for national, and even provencial team spots, the coaches look at the young kids too see if they have any talent. No talent means that highest level of competition, a lack of talent compared to others will hold you back and so the coach may not pay 100% attention to them. I know someone who said his coach doesn't think he should go pro because he had a relativly low foot arc. Talent isn't everything, but it helps a lot.

Another thing to highlight is that almost all the top players, started at a really young age. The fact is, someone with 10 years of 3-5 hours a day of professional level experience versus your one year in ping pong, you will loose. Experience is a very heavy deciding factor in table tennis. You also have a small window of success, since age is a pretty big factor in any sport. by the time you are good enough to be at the national level, you might be 3-4 years away from having to retire.

Good news is, there are some exceptions like Hugo Calderano! I think he started when he was around 14 and now he's a top ten player. ofcoarse, Hugo is a great example of someone with extreme talent, but it is also important to note that he has experience in racket sports, previously playing tennis.

The sad truth is, if you don't have the right talents and training conditions, you probably won't make it. Table tennis isn't a big enough global sport either, so it'd be hard to make a living out of it. an athletes life in any sport is very hard, just be safe and don't go proffessional, but you can still train hard and have fun.

chuckjordan2
04-05-2020, 04:07 AM
While it can be an uphill battle, if you believe in yourself you can accomplish your goals. They should include being the best you can in schooling too.

UpSideDownCarl
04-05-2020, 04:22 AM
I would not want to say impossible. Many things that are unlikely are still possible.

If, at 15 you have a little experience, but experience in other racket sports and are extremely talented and spent about 4-5 hours a day training, maybe 2-3 hours a day of that training supervised by coaches, and you did that 6 days a week for 4-5 years, by 20, you might be able to get to top 100 in your country. But that would cost a lot of money to have that level of training with coaches.

Also, a lot of the time, the guys who get the most serious coaching and get to those high levels nationally, travel to countries where they can get higher quality coaching.

But, if the idea of trying to get to be a pro player is a motivation for you to play, use it to keep you motivated to train and improve.

However, if you really want to get to a decently high level though, you have to train with people who can get you to work on the things you need to improve to get you to those higher levels. Just playing with friends, hitting with a return board or a robot, or any other fun things that are not specifically tailored to helping you improve on the skills you need to work on, would not be what gets you to the elite levels of play.

4-5 hours a day, 6 days a week of TT training
2-3 (of those 4-5 hours) a day of training with or supervised by coaches on at least 4 of the 6 days a week

So, approximately 12 hours a week of training with a coach (approx $700.00 per week).

And if you did that, you might get to a high level. But, you might not.

And if the only thing that makes you interested in playing is becoming a pro, maybe play futball instead.

Der_Echte
04-05-2020, 07:45 AM
Just started at 15 and gunna be a PRO on the TOUR in TT.

NOPE.

PERIOD.

Is it possible to be relatively good and maybe lead a team, run a club, or earn money as a coach...

SURE. CAN. HAPPEN.

If some ole crusty jokers like Next Level and a certain Der_Echte can start at said age as crusty jokers and still become tourney players and coaches...

YEAH. U younger, should be moar possible for you.

Kuba Hajto
04-05-2020, 09:09 AM
If you don't enjoy the sport why bother wether you can become a touring pro.. If you enjoy the sport why bother thinking if you become the pro, why not just have fun, improve and go through whatever player evaluation system your country has (wether it is elo system or league system).

pingpongpaddy
04-05-2020, 09:38 AM
I'm feeling very late compared to Tomokazu Harimoto, who is already 16 years old and is at the top of the world ranking, I started practicing tt for now and I dream of becoming a professional, is it still possible? I'm very unmotivated.


I'm feeling very late compared to tomokazu harimoto, who is already 16 years old and is at the top of the world ranking, I started practicing tt for now and I dream of becoming a professional, is it still possible?

hi davizoosk
i think when coronavirus is over you should try and go to a table tennis camp with a good coach. surely there are some camps in Brazil with retired pro in charge. This is how you find out your level and what serious training is like. A 2 day camp would be enough for this purpose.
good luck

MaLin2.0
04-05-2020, 12:01 PM
Watch this YouTube video

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OM3YNEnbMPs

Harimoto & Ma Long, both at 14. But concentrate on the training involved for both players to increase levels. I feel at 14/15 it's still about developments in attitude. Get a gasp on how each train from 14-17 and how they reached the elite level. Will be interesting to see if Harimoto career will be more successful than that of Ma Long's.

I am a firm believer that you need to learn how to play right before you start developing bad habits, TT is a game where you see plenty of bad habits, if you continue with bad habits your game doesn't evolve. I say at 15, go to as much training as possible, even secondary trainers to get more insight on ways to improve, one step at a time, you might not make it to that pro level but you can always give it a shot.

davizoosk
04-05-2020, 03:07 PM
Well, I can get 1-2 hours on three days a week with a coach, I will see other gyms if I can get more for a good price, I live in the capital of Brazil (Brasilia), and here there are not many clubs, I can also play matches every day without additional cost in the gyms, the cost would be 28 dollars in a month (150 Brazilian reals). I love table tennis, I am interested in being professional because I want to take this more seriously. I will try hard, my goal now is to get to the national school games and get recognition. Thank you all for showing me the reality, I know it is almost impossible but I will try until the end, I understood that it is not easy but I will try, anyway tt will only bring me good experiences.

yogi_bear
04-05-2020, 03:13 PM
1 to 2 hrs is not enough per day. 6 hrs is the target for most high level trainings.

davizoosk
04-05-2020, 03:15 PM
Watch this YouTube video

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OM3YNEnbMPs

Harimoto & Ma Long, both at 14. But concentrate on the training involved for both players to increase levels. I feel at 14/15 it's still about developments in attitude. Get a gasp on how each train from 14-17 and how they reached the elite level. Will be interesting to see if Harimoto career will be more successful than that of Ma Long's.

I am a firm believer that you need to learn how to play right before you start developing bad habits, TT is a game where you see plenty of bad habits, if you continue with bad habits your game doesn't evolve. I say at 15, go to as much training as possible, even secondary trainers to get more insight on ways to improve, one step at a time, you might not make it to that pro level but you can always give it a shot.

Thank you, I will train as much as possible, I will change my school schedule to 7:30 am to 12:30 am to have more time without interruptions. let's see how far I will go.

davizoosk
04-05-2020, 03:18 PM
1 to 2 hrs is not enough per day. 6 hrs is the target for most high level trainings.

6 hours a day with a coach is impossible here, both for the cost and the disposition, the maximum is 2 hours for 3 days a week with the pocket we have. The rest of the day I will call a friend for multi-ball and physical training.

davizoosk
04-05-2020, 03:36 PM
hi davizoosk
i think when coronavirus is over you should try and go to a table tennis camp with a good coach. surely there are some camps in Brazil with retired pro in charge. This is how you find out your level and what serious training is like. A 2 day camp would be enough for this purpose.
good luck



it would be difficult for me, the cost of travel to other states that focus more on tt are high, (500 brazilian real or more), the closest thing to that is to have an experimental class with a coach at the academy, he will inform me about my level and inform me more. About the coronavirus, here it is getting worse and the peak will be from 6 to 20 April, everyone is very irresponsible, I have no class until the end of May and all training and tournaments are canceled until then too. sports suffered a lot from that.

pingpongpaddy
04-05-2020, 03:59 PM
it would be difficult for me, the cost of travel to other states that focus more on tt are high, (500 brazilian real or more), the closest thing to that is to have an experimental class with a coach at the academy, he will inform me about my level and inform me more. About the coronavirus, here it is getting worse and the peak will be from 6 to 20 April, everyone is very irresponsible, I have no class until the end of May and all training and tournaments are canceled until then too. sports suffered a lot from that.
well davizoosk
i think this discussion has shown you all the practical things you have to think about to be successful at anything whether its sport or a business career.
i just want to say as a lifelong tt player for 50 + years though i fell well short of my original ambition there has been a lot of interest and satisfaction in learning to play at quite a good level. The lessons i learned climbing the table tennis mountain helped me a lot in my real career.
good luck

davizoosk
04-05-2020, 04:09 PM
well davizoosk
i think this discussion has shown you all the practical things you have to think about to be successful at anything whether its sport or a business career.
i just want to say as a lifelong tt player for 50 + years though i fell well short of my original ambition there has been a lot of interest and satisfaction in learning to play at quite a good level. The lessons i learned climbing the table tennis mountain helped me a lot in my real career.
good luck




i know this, in the end tt will only bring me good experiences, i know that there will be other paths besides professional sport if i can't, thanks for the reflection and motivation, i will try to make the most of this sport i love.

Der_Echte
04-05-2020, 05:47 PM
Can OP get good and better at TT and have a BLAST for YEARS and DECADES?

YUP.

That may be better than being apropos.

When I did my first tourney as a recreational player, I saw 1800 level players, saw they played GREAT and thought I would be happy at that level, which is 3 to 4 levels above the average USA club player.

I got to a level or 2 above that and realized how deficient I was and wanted more.

Now I am another level or two above that level and see even more holes/needs and want to improve more.

Realistically, 2400 max is gunna be it for a geezer like me... likely lower for max level growth.

Either way... the pursuit of what you define as greatness or good is blast all in itsrlf.


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Wister
04-05-2020, 07:46 PM
As everybody have said, being pro seems a difficult goal. But in TT you can play well even a bit old, so if you train seriously from now to your thirties, you can reach a very high level. But in my opinion the number of hours per week is very important and having a good coach also help a lot. I find that 10 hours a week (like 3 * three hours training), is not even a lot, again in my opinion

P.S : When i say a high level, why not top 100 / 200 in your country ? Not sure what is doable

davizoosk
04-05-2020, 10:50 PM
As everybody have said, being pro seems a difficult goal. But in TT you can play well even a bit old, so if you train seriously from now to your thirties, you can reach a very high level. But in my opinion the number of hours per week is very important and having a good coach also help a lot. I find that 10 hours a week (like 3 * three hours training), is not even a lot, again in my opinion

P.S : When i say a high level, why not top 100 / 200 in your country ? Not sure what is doable



at that level can I already compete nationally?
at that level can I already compete nationally?

Metaxa
04-05-2020, 10:57 PM
Everything starts with talent. If you are not blessed with that in your early childhood, it will be very difficult. A coach can determine this fairly quickly. 15 years is already quite late, but by working very hard you can certainly achieve a high level in your country. There are plenty of examples of talented young people who have not made it in a sport. The other way round, by the way, little talent but with hard work nevertheless got far in their sport.
What is still fairly important in your development is the environment of people who are 100% behind you and then I think in the first place of your parents, your coach and clubmates.
Except weekly many hours of training (between 15h and 20h) you will also need to gain match experience during tournaments and competitions.
Sorry for the reality.
I wish you every success!


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NextLevel
04-05-2020, 11:07 PM
Everything starts with talent. If you are not blessed with that in your early childhood, it will be very difficult. A coach can determine this fairly quickly. 15 years is already quite late, but by working very hard you can certainly achieve a high level in your country. There are plenty of examples of talented young people who have not made it in a sport. The other way round, by the way, little talent but with hard work nevertheless got far in their sport.
What is still fairly important in your development is the environment of people who are 100% behind you and then I think in the first place of your parents, your coach and clubmates.
Except weekly many hours of training (between 15h and 20h) you will also need to gain match experience during tournaments and competitions.
Sorry for the reality.
I wish you every success!


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One of the top coaches I know said that the best student he ever coached was someone who he would never have picked as talented. So he is always wary of people saying that talent can be picked ahead of time. Motivation varies and counts for a lot so let people sort their effort and results out over time. It doesn't matter how "talented " you are if you are winning matches.

davizoosk
04-05-2020, 11:21 PM
I get 26 hours a week, 2 hours for 3 days with a coach and the rest will be multi-ball (3 hours a day), serve (1 hour a day) and physical training, because my father is a physical education professional ( 12 hours). not counting the weekends, I can train multi-balls with my nephew for at least 4 hours, very physical and serve. for a long time.

davizoosk
04-05-2020, 11:26 PM
About the competitions, here where I live it is kind of difficult to have competitions in the short term, at most one every 3 months. At the gyms I can play games freely at no extra cost. I will try 1 hour a day.



about competitions, here it is kind of difficult to have competitions in the short term, at most one every 3 months. At the gyms I can play games freely at no extra cost. I will try 1 hour a dayabout competitions, here it is kind of difficult to have competitions in the short term, at most one every 3 months. At the gyms I can play games freely at no extra cost. I will try 1 hour a day

Metaxa
04-05-2020, 11:33 PM
One of the top coaches I know said that the best student he ever coached was someone who he would never have picked as talented. So he is always wary of people saying that talent can be picked ahead of time. Motivation varies and counts for a lot so let people sort their effort and results out over time. It doesn't matter how "talented " you are if you are winning matches.

Sure!

Nothing is impossible, not even without talent, but then you will have to work / train very hard. With talent this will all go much easier which does not guarantee success of course.


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yogi_bear
04-06-2020, 01:45 AM
6 hours a day with a coach is impossible here, both for the cost and the disposition, the maximum is 2 hours for 3 days a week with the pocket we have. The rest of the day I will call a friend for multi-ball and physical training.

And you are still hoping you will be a PRO? Being in a pro level does not only require talent but also investing massive amount of hours into practice, matchplay, physical fitness and tournament exposure. You being short on practice hours will get you nowhere. You may reach a level wherein you will be considered competitive but not a pro level.

UpSideDownCarl
04-06-2020, 07:45 AM
Nothing wrong with trying and doing your best. But, for most, it does take a lot of money to afford the training necessary to get to those higher levels. So, go for your dreams. But understand it is a very hard goal to achieve.

mart1nandersson
04-06-2020, 08:39 AM
1 to 2 hrs is not enough per day. 6 hrs is the target for most high level trainings.

Spot on. The usual training volume for kids aiming for the stars around here is something like 2h in the morning and then 3h in the afternoon. 6 to 7 days a week. This increase usually happens around the age of 12.

lightspin
04-06-2020, 11:24 AM
Never let anyone place limitations on what you can and cannot do. That is up to you.

With that being said, if you want to be a pro it is not going to be easy. Most pros started playing anywhere from 2 to 6 years old and at a certain age they are playing 6-8 hours a day, 6 days a week. They also usually have a full time coach or relative who can guide their training. If you do not have an expert fixing the problems in your game, you are going to waste a lot of time reinventing the wheel at best. At worst you will develop bad habits that are next to impossible to fix. If you want to have any chance, you need to practice 6 hours a day on the table, 1 hour of serve practice and 1 hour of physical training.

When I went to train in China, one of the women's national team coaches told me that if a player had Waldner's natural talent level, they could start training full time at age 16 and get to a decent level of playing. Otherwise it is better to start when you are 2-6. Not many people are as talented as Waldner, its a very short list of 1 person. But maybe you can do it, so try your best! Good luck!

yogi_bear
04-06-2020, 11:50 AM
There is a huge difference between having a decent playing level and a pro level. what we posters are saying is that it is almost impossible for him to be at a pro level since he lacks the hours to practice and some other important things a would be pro needs to develop.

lightspin
04-06-2020, 12:02 PM
I should be clearer. When the coach said decent level of playing, he meant Chinese National Team level of playing, not necessarily world champion. There is quite a bit of difference.

Brs
04-06-2020, 01:15 PM
When considering choices like this one it is better to think about real alternatives and not imaginary ones. For example, you are using international pro player/not pro to decide whether to invest a lot of time and energy into table tennis. It's hard to make a decision on that basis because nobody knows the future. You will make a better decision based on your real alternatives to use that time, right now, today. So if you don't do TT, and instead use six hours a day to watch TV and LOLcat videos on YT, then going for table tennis is probably a better option. At worst you will become a good player and have a sport to play for life. At best you become a pro or a coach and maybe have a second job or even a fulltime business. But if instead you would use the time on your studies, that might be a better choice long-term. If you might do another sport, or learn something else that interests you, then it seems like even odds. Regardless the only person who can provide useful input to your decision is you. What are your real choices? It's a lot of time. And SPOILER ALERT: you won't have hours a day to spend as you please once you get out of school and start working. So choose well.

davizoosk
04-06-2020, 03:02 PM
[QUOTE = yogi_bear; 310821] Há uma enorme diferença entre ter um nível de jogo decente e um nível profissional. o que os pôsteres estão dizendo é que é quase impossível para ele estar em um nível profissional, já que ele não tem horas para praticar e outras coisas importantes que um profissional precisa desenvolver. [/ QUOTE]

Eu recebo 26 horas por semana, 2 horas por 3 dias com um treinador e o restante será multi-bola (3 horas por dia), saque (1 hora por dia) e treinamento físico, porque meu pai é um profissional de educação física (1-2 horas). sem contar os finais de semana, posso treinar bolas múltiplas com meu sobrinho por pelo menos 4 horas, muito físico e saque. por muito tempo.

davizoosk
04-06-2020, 03:11 PM
Never let anyone place limitations on what you can and cannot do. That is up to you.

With that being said, if you want to be a pro it is not going to be easy. Most pros started playing anywhere from 2 to 6 years old and at a certain age they are playing 6-8 hours a day, 6 days a week. They also usually have a full time coach or relative who can guide their training. If you do not have an expert fixing the problems in your game, you are going to waste a lot of time reinventing the wheel at best. At worst you will develop bad habits that are next to impossible to fix. If you want to have any chance, you need to practice 6 hours a day on the table, 1 hour of serve practice and 1 hour of physical training.

When I went to train in China, one of the women's national team coaches told me that if a player had Waldner's natural talent level, they could start training full time at age 16 and get to a decent level of playing. Otherwise it is better to start when you are 2-6. Not many people are as talented as Waldner, its a very short list of 1 person. But maybe you can do it, so try your best! Good luck!



I will do that, I even talked to my father and mother. They agreed, my father is a professional / physical education teacher. He has time to guide me. I will use 26 hours on all 5 days of the week and on weekends probably 16 hours on all.

davizoosk
04-06-2020, 03:19 PM
When considering choices like this one it is better to think about real alternatives and not imaginary ones. For example, you are using international pro player/not pro to decide whether to invest a lot of time and energy into table tennis. It's hard to make a decision on that basis because nobody knows the future. You will make a better decision based on your real alternatives to use that time, right now, today. So if you don't do TT, and instead use six hours a day to watch TV and LOLcat videos on YT, then going for table tennis is probably a better option. At worst you will become a good player and have a sport to play for life. At best you become a pro or a coach and maybe have a second job or even a fulltime business. But if instead you would use the time on your studies, that might be a better choice long-term. If you might do another sport, or learn something else that interests you, then it seems like even odds. Regardless the only person who can provide useful input to your decision is you. What are your real choices? It's a lot of time. And SPOILER ALERT: you won't have hours a day to spend as you please once you get out of school and start working. So choose well.

My parents have an accounting firm, I will probably work from 6am until 12am. I will still be able to train until 9pm without any interruption. I analyzed this well for 3 days, I am willing to try. There are no other sports that I am good at or that are goodat going further.

lightspin
04-06-2020, 03:28 PM
I will do that, I even talked to my father and mother. They agreed, my father is a professional / physical education teacher. He has time to guide me. I will use 26 hours on all 5 days of the week and on weekends probably 16 hours on all.

Hugo's dad is a PE teacher as well I think. If you are going to try, good luck. One important thing to remember is your improvement will not be linear. When you learn a new tactic you might actually play worse for a while until you get used to it and perfect it. The important thing is to put in the effort day in and day out. I had two friends whose improvement had leveled off for a long time. One player eventually made the national team while practicing in a less than optimal environment. The other eventually got into the top 20 in the country in his late 30s/early 40s. Do your best, study hard in school and give it a shot!

brokenball
04-06-2020, 04:03 PM
TT must be a passion. To be really good at anything it must be passion.

I have what I think is kind of a sad story.
My third coach was Guo Hao. He beat Jinxin Wang who was the US Champion a few years back in Seattle. When Hao got serious he was very good.

Hao won a provincial tournament when he was 13 and and was selected to a TT academy instead of high school. 4 years of intense TT training. When he graduate from the academy he failed to make the CNT. Competition to make the CNT is vicious and you must be more than good, you must be the best, with the right attitude and without physical weaknesses.

I could guess why Hao didn't make the CNT. Hao got sponsored by someone to come to the US to learn English at a local college. He was here on a student visa which he violated. We knew that but we just wanted to play TT with him. I took lessons from Hao for about a year and a half.
Hao went back to Tianjin and couldn't come back. I doubt he paid any taxes on the money he made and his student visa says he must work only on campus.

In China, Hao can coach. He may be able to make a local team. If he can't he is not going to do well without a real high school education. This is kind of sad.
Does anybody know what an ant colony is?

My point is that you must be much better than good and unless you make the top 20 or so you probably won't make real money. In the US I doubt one can make any money except by coaching.

yogi_bear
04-06-2020, 11:03 PM
You have to be training in China surrounded by high level players in order for you to be at pro level starting at 16 years of training.

Simas
04-07-2020, 11:26 PM
Watch this YouTube video

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OM3YNEnbMPs



nice video, I've seen a lot ERT videos, but somehow missed that. And for OP, you can try and reach stars, but if you wan't to make decent living from table tennis, this is not a thing for players below ITTF100, so I should seriously be working on my plan B simultaneously... sorry :(

UpSideDownCarl
04-08-2020, 02:07 AM
nice video, I've seen a lot ERT videos, but somehow missed that. And for OP, you can try and reach stars, but if you wan't to make decent living from table tennis, this is not a thing for players below ITTF100, so I should seriously be working on my plan B simultaneously... sorry :(

Yeah. This is actually a good point. I was thinking of this purely from the standpoint of whether you could get good enough to be a decently high level player like, top 50 in your country.

From the standpoint of making money, top 1 in your country makes money. I doubt anyone else from your country can pay their bills from just TT. Maybe top 20 in the world can do more than pay their bills. The rest, I have a feeling they get money in other ways aside from TT.

From the supporting yourself and paying the bills standpoint, being almost anything would support you financially better than TT would.

Simas
04-08-2020, 08:25 AM
Yeah. This is actually a good point. I was thinking of this purely from the standpoint of whether you could get good enough to be a decently high level player like, top 50 in your country.

From the standpoint of making money, top 1 in your country makes money. I doubt anyone else from your country can pay their bills from just TT. Maybe top 20 in the world can do more than pay their bills. The rest, I have a feeling they get money in other ways aside from TT.

From the supporting yourself and paying the bills standpoint, being almost anything would support you financially better than TT would.

yes, so if you end up in table tennis, the most realistic option to make a living is to be a good table tennis coach :)

CluelessTTDad
04-08-2020, 12:09 PM
10000 hours is the bottom line... I tend to agree with Matthew Syed when he said talent is nothing, hard work is everything.

At 6 hours a week you should be elite level by the time you're approaching 50 years old.

Even at 18 hours a week you'll be late 20s.

And as an elite player the reality is you'll still not make a living out of TT.

As I said to my son... he could be in the top 250 football players in France and be a wealthy man but in the top 250 TT players in France he'll earn close to nothing. He'd be much better off being the best plumber in the area than the best TT player the area.

So, set yourself small goals, practice only as much as is enjoyable, get some decent coaching regularly and you'll be as good as the time and effort you put in.

It's only a game.

UpSideDownCarl
04-08-2020, 02:33 PM
10000 hours is the bottom line... I tend to agree with Matthew Syed when he said talent is nothing, hard work is everything.

At 6 hours a week you should be elite level by the time you're approaching 50 years old.

Even at 18 hours a week you'll be late 20s.

And as an elite player the reality is you'll still not make a living out of TT.

As I said to my son... he could be in the top 250 football players in France and be a wealthy man but in the top 250 TT players in France he'll earn close to nothing. He'd be much better off being the best plumber in the area than the best TT player the area.

So, set yourself small goals, practice only as much as is enjoyable, get some decent coaching regularly and you'll be as good as the time and effort you put in.

It's only a game.

This is a great post. It is funny. I almost used the analogy of a plumber. I thought about garbage man as well. Either make more than the guys I know who are TT coaches. And the best TT coaches I know, and they are good coaches, kind of have to hustle to make a decent living. Some also have a day job. :)

Sad, per hour, a tennis coach makes about 3-4 times the amount that a TT coach makes. A golf coach makes about 2-5 times what a tennis coach makes. At least that is how it is on the east coast of the USA. A golf coach can have one client in a day and make exponentially more than a TT coach with 6 or 7 clients in a day.

Baal
04-08-2020, 02:35 PM
This is a great post. It is funny. I almost used the analogy of a plumber. I thought about garbage man as well. Either make more than the guys I know who are TT coaches. And the best TT coaches I know, and they are good coaches, kind of have to hustle to make a decent living. Some also have a day job. :)

Sad, per hour, a tennis coach makes about 3-4 times the amount that a TT coach makes. A golf coach makes about 2-5 times what a tennis coach makes. At least that is how it is on the east coast of the USA. A golf coach can have one client in a day and make exponentially more than a TT coach with 6 or 7 clients in a day.

Something Jimmy Butler once told me. He said it is bad to be too good at table tennis.

zyu81
04-08-2020, 04:20 PM
Something Jimmy Butler once told me. He said it is bad to be too good at table tennis.

Was he mostly referring to the money of it, or the sacrifices that you have to make in all other aspects of your life to get to that point?

Simas
04-08-2020, 07:57 PM
10000 hours is the bottom line... I tend to agree with Matthew Syed when he said talent is nothing, hard work is everything.


oh no, if you put 10k hours, you will just be a very good player. You won't be anywhere near ITTF100 or even ITTF1000 i suppose. If you wan't to be with the best in the world, you have to be super talented and then add not 10k but 20k hours on top. At those levels you start with the talent and then you add work.

pingpongpaddy
04-09-2020, 08:05 AM
Was he mostly referring to the money of it, or the sacrifices that you have to make in all other aspects of your life to get to that point?
This comes from a 19 century attitude when professional sportsmen were looked down on compared with amateurs. Perhaps because parents wanted to guide their kids towards respectable jobs with regular income.
For snooker for instance "no gentleman plays billiards better than the marker" (the marker being the club pro keeping score for the members)

Simas
04-09-2020, 08:11 AM
Found my 1.5 year old forum post (time flies :cool:) about player salaries in clubs in EU:


"A member of a Table Tennis Facebook Group I follow wrote a very interesting post with the info he was able to gather about men salaries in clubs in EU. So according to the author:

-players who are ~bellow ITTF250+ are playing for food, equipment and a butterfly suit. On a good day, they even may get 100eur for small expenses
-players around ITTF250 earn on average 12-15000 EUR per season +bonuses for results, so on average around 100eur per victory
-players around ITTF200-250 can expect 15-20000 EUR per season+some bonuses
-players around ITTF150-200 can expect 18-22000 EUR per season+some bonuses
-players around ITTF100-150 can earn up to 30000 per season, on average 25-27000 EUR per season
-Crossing ITTF-100 is an important threshold in Table tennis. Top 100 players salaries start from 30000 eur per season. But it depends upon how stable are you. Whether you are always in the top 100 or if your ranking varies from for example ITTF-120 to ITTF-80...
-players around ITTF-60 and up earn 40-50000 eur per season. Those who are stable above ITTF-50 earn not less then 60000EUR per season
-players around ITTF-20 earn from 60-90000eur per season. But it may vary wildly depending on the results
-top players get 150000-300000 eur per season or more. But, for example, stars like Timo Boll earn much more than that.
Also, players get bonuses for taking first places in various tournaments, so this money usually goes only to top players naturally.

Salaries in China are much bigger than in Europe.

So the takeaway is that you should get a normal job and stop dreaming about making your living from TT. Cause to be able to make a decent living you have to be one of let's say 100 top players in the whole world and have superpowers "

I think it's right on topic here :)

yogi_bear
04-09-2020, 08:30 AM
Is 39l0k.Euro per season bigger than a monthly salary of a regular paying job in Europe?

CluelessTTDad
04-09-2020, 09:06 AM
Going back to my plumber, he's definitely pulling in more than 100k euros a year and it didn't take him 10000 hours of practice to get there.

davizoosk
04-09-2020, 03:07 PM
thank you all and I would like you to end it there, I don’t want to know about money, money and money, I already know that I won’t make a living with this even if I get far, maybe I’ll do something else like digital marketing, I’ll play for love, money makes a difference, but what tt experiences me is not normal, yesterday there was an ugly fight here, the only thing that made me calm was my racket and ball. I like and love this sport. the money he will bring me does not matter, I will strive to pay the bills, but mainly to get as far as possible in the sport.

davizoosk
04-09-2020, 03:16 PM
sorry, but i never talked about making a living with tt, that's not even my intention. I close this topic here. I will not have a normal job and I may be struggling to get as far as possible. Thanks but I don't care about that much money, I hate those who idolize money.

Takkyu_wa_inochi
04-09-2020, 03:17 PM
thank you all and I would like you to end it there, I don’t want to know about money, money and money, I already know that I won’t make a living with this even if I get far, maybe I’ll do something else like digital marketing, I’ll play for love, money makes a difference, but what tt experiences me is not normal, yesterday there was an ugly fight here, the only thing that made me calm was my racket and ball. I like and love this sport. the money he will bring me does not matter, I will strive to pay the bills, but mainly to get as far as possible in the sport.

not sure this will age well, especially when he learns that chicks prefer rich men to bums, and that TT coaches will not teach him for free because they have a family to feed.

but 15 is a time when to have grand ideas.

davizoosk
04-09-2020, 03:24 PM
thank you all for the encouragement, about the technicians I’m already seeing this, if you’ve read it, you can see that my father is a physical education teacher and can accompany me on this, I won’t give up and thanks again, you just motivated me to try harder. :)

UpSideDownCarl
04-09-2020, 03:27 PM
thank you all for the encouragement, about the technicians I’m already seeing this, if you’ve read it, you can see that my father is a physical education teacher and can accompany me on this, I won’t give up and thanks again, you just motivated me to try harder. :)

Cool. You should look at PingPongPaddy's thread on ideas about training. It will be a worthwhile read for you. Good info for improving skills.

lVegita
04-09-2020, 04:06 PM
I started practicing tt for now and I dream of becoming a professional, is it still possible?



sorry, but i never talked about making a living with tt, that's not even my intention.


"A professional is a member of a profession or any person who earns their living from a specified professional activity." (Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional))

UpSideDownCarl
04-09-2020, 04:16 PM
"A professional is a member of a profession or any person who earns their living from a specified professional activity." (Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional))

This is true. But if his goal is simply to get as good as possible and to get to a pro level of play, then, no reason not to go for it. When he needs to be able to pay the bills, he will make choices then. At 15 you can focus on things like TT training. The work and discipline that go into it do transfer into life and profession skills when he needs to make a living. That kind of discipline, if he develops it while working on TT skills can transfer to the skills of any other career.

Simas
04-09-2020, 05:09 PM
Sorry, if you heard not that what you hoped, but your attitude is great. So keep it up!

davizoosk
04-09-2020, 05:52 PM
Sorry, if you heard not that what you hoped, but your attitude is great. So keep it up!

I'm sorry, nothing here I expected, you gave me an explanation of the reality and I was angry at the time. but I understood, anyway, I understand a little bit of informatics and digital marketing, maybe I need to use this to make a living if the tt doesn't bear fruit, I'm sorry for the ignorance.

UpSideDownCarl
04-09-2020, 06:28 PM
I have had players who were in their mid-twenties, and who were low level players ask what I thought about them working to become a pro. There is nothing wrong with dreams and following your dreams. Sometimes things work out different than the numbers.

In other sports it is much more possible. In TT it is quite hard. But, for someone 15 it is still possible. Just not a viable source of income for most, even the second rung below the top tier players.

But there is still value in going for it. And you never know what could come of the fruits of the effort.

Look at ZJK: he makes far more being a model these days than he ever did as a TT player. And at the height of his career, he was definitely, by far, the highest paid player. And the modeling career would not have happened without the TT career. :)

Der_Echte
04-10-2020, 01:10 AM
Ironically, one of my founding members of Korean Foreign developed into a National level Div 1 amateur player winning many tourneys (was about 200 level when he went to Korea) and had a very successful career as a fashion model.

Table Tennis Reborn
04-10-2020, 07:30 AM
If you surround yourself in the right environment it's possible

yogi_bear
04-10-2020, 11:23 AM
I say go to college, graduate and get a high paying job while playing table tennis to be on a good level but not a pro.

maldives_girl
04-22-2020, 08:54 AM
Yes you can. And you even have a chance to participate in local leagues. But I think that everything is possible and you can achieve the great results if you will work hard. Adn maybe once you will take a part at worldwide championship.

UpSideDownCarl
04-22-2020, 02:29 PM
Yes you can. And you even have a chance to participate in local leagues. But I think that everything is possible and you can achieve the great results if you will work hard. Adn maybe once you will take a part at worldwide championship.

Just curious. How long have you been playing?

ajtatosmano2
04-22-2020, 09:58 PM
It is possible, it just depends on you. I would say train like 4*5 hours a week plus 3 hours one-on
-one with a coach. This is 23 hours, IMO it's enough if you are talented. If not, aim at 30-35 hours per week. The real challenge are the money and the schooling. You're 15 and being a full-time TT player you can't expect a stable income. The best if you can participate in a family business. Also, if you are in school and train to become a pro, you can forget your social life. Your team and clubmates will be your friends and you shouldn't start a serious romantic relationship, unless she's a professional too. It's harsh, but it's possible. On the other hand, if you want to become a semi-professional, someone who gets paid for playing but not as his main income, your job is much easier. Then it really depends on how talented you are, how good the coaches are and how can you manage your time. I am 21 and still want to become a semi-pro and I believe that I can become one.
If you decided that you want to take table tennis seriously, I highly recommend to set goals and start to share vids about you training and playing, as it creates pressure on you and helps maintaining a high standard during training.

Baal
04-23-2020, 12:52 AM
I believe I can fly.

I believe in miracles.

This I believe.

I believe in Santa Claus.

Reason to believe.


I believe to my soul.

Daydream believer.

Don't stop believin'

Do you believe in magic?

I'm a believer.

When you believe.



Nope. A guy just starting at 15 is not going to be a pro, no matter how hard you believe or how many songs you listen to.

Kontra
04-23-2020, 09:27 AM
Michael Stich was always synonym to me that it's possible, even if you start bit later, but even him had some foundations from early stages of hiss life. Also, every sport in total, was bit "different" 30 years ago.

Born on October 18, 1968, Stich came of age in Elmshorn, a suburb of Hamburg. Though he’d first started tennis at age six, for much of Stich’s childhood, tennis took a back seat to soccer. Tennis was something he played for fun, but not always with a particularly high level of engagement or even good manners. As Stich said years later, “I behaved really bad, and so everybody said, ‘O.K., that guy’s never going to win anything.’”

In the summer of 1985, though, the 16-year-old Stich was quite impressed to see Becker, a mere 11 months his elder, capture the Wimbledon men’s singles title. Becker’s landmark first major victory cascaded in the form of an inspirational shockwave. A year later, Stich had cast soccer aside and ascended the tennis rankings to become become Germany’s best junior.

Stich turned pro in 1988 and began to inch his way up the ranks. Who knew how far he could go? One major believer was Nikki Pilic, a former top ten pro who was also the German Davis Cup captain. As Pilic noted in 1991, “I said when Michael was 400 in the rankings that he had the potential to be in the top 50 . . . He is intelligent. He has great talent, good hands, good eye, great touch. Though he is big, he is not slow.”

davizoosk
04-23-2020, 03:38 PM
It is possible, it just depends on you. I would say train like 4*5 hours a week plus 3 hours one-on
-one with a coach. This is 23 hours, IMO it's enough if you are talented. If not, aim at 30-35 hours per week. The real challenge are the money and the schooling. You're 15 and being a full-time TT player you can't expect a stable income. The best if you can participate in a family business. Also, if you are in school and train to become a pro, you can forget your social life. Your team and clubmates will be your friends and you shouldn't start a serious romantic relationship, unless she's a professional too. It's harsh, but it's possible. On the other hand, if you want to become a semi-professional, someone who gets paid for playing but not as his main income, your job is much easier. Then it really depends on how talented you are, how good the coaches are and how can you manage your time. I am 21 and still want to become a semi-pro and I believe that I can become one.
If you decided that you want to take table tennis seriously, I highly recommend to set goals and start to share vids about you training and playing, as it creates pressure on you and helps maintaining a high standard during training.


thank you, i'm aiming 6 hours at the table, 1 hour of serve and 1 hour of physical. I have already established my schedules, I can participate in a family business when I finish high school and still train, my father and mother have an office, I will work there from 6 to 12am, I will arrive home around 1h30pm and I will train normally, there will be 3 or 2 days with a coach for 1 or 2 hours. About friends, I lost almost everyone after elementary school. one will do the multi ball training with me and I don’t have many friends, I think 6 at most. About the videos, I will create an instagram and post there. I already know that it will not be easy, motivation to train hard I have now, besides my father who does not let me give up, he says "if you started you have to finish".

UpSideDownCarl
04-23-2020, 04:30 PM
Michael Stich was always synonym to me that it's possible, even if you start bit later, but even him had some foundations from early stages of hiss life. Also, every sport in total, was bit "different" 30 years ago
Born on October 18, 1968, Stich came of age in Elmshorn, a suburb of Hamburg. Though he’d first started tennis at age six, for much of Stich’s childhood, tennis took a back seat to soccer. Tennis was something he played for fun, but not always with a particularly high level of engagement or even good manners. As Stich said years later, “I behaved really bad, and so everybody said, ‘O.K., that guy’s never going to win anything.’”

In the summer of 1985, though, the 16-year-old Stich was quite impressed to see Becker, a mere 11 months his elder, capture the Wimbledon men’s singles title. Becker’s landmark first major victory cascaded in the form of an inspirational shockwave. A year later, Stich had cast soccer aside and ascended the tennis rankings to become become Germany’s best junior.

Stich turned pro in 1988 and began to inch his way up the ranks. Who knew how far he could go? One major believer was Nikki Pilic, a former top ten pro who was also the German Davis Cup captain. As Pilic noted in 1991, “I said when Michael was 400 in the rankings that he had the potential to be in the top 50 . . . He is intelligent. He has great talent, good hands, good eye, great touch. Though he is big, he is not slow.”





I actually think, in almost any other sport, it is more possible than in TT. I do think it is still possible. But not quite as possible in TT. In some sports like baseball and tennis, there are notable times when a player who ultimately becomes a top level player, does not have that talent surface until their mid to late teens.

Can anyone think of an example of this in the last 25 years of TT?

I do know someone who started to play TT seriously at about 13 who became quite a high level player. But that person grew up with a tennis court (tennis not table tennis) in his back yard and the ability to take as much high level TT coaching as he liked where, as far as I know, money did not seem to be an obstacle. He fell a bit short of his expectations but he did get to a peak of 2700 (USATT) rating. But he had been playing racket sports since he was quite young even if he had not been playing Table Tennis. So, he had some things going for him from the start.

There are a few reasons it is harder to start later in TT than in most sports. I think the amount of technique as apposed to power that is required in TT, the amount of touch and feel, these are unique to TT and it is hard, without years of practice and training to develop those subtle skills that determine just precisely how you touch the ball.

Also, because of how close the opponent is, and how fast the ball can come back, this actually makes it fairly hard to cement good technique into muscle memory because every time you feel rushed, it encourages old bad habits to resurface.

Again, I do think it is still possible. It is just very hard in TT where it is still hard but not quite as hard in many other sports.

ajtatosmano2
04-23-2020, 04:51 PM
My clubmate started when he was 11 years old. Now he is 18, plays second league (he is over 75%) and just participated in his first world tour. Also know someone who played on 4th league level and a few years ago, when he was close to 60 years old his game skyrocketed and now plays 2nd league (though if I remember correctly he wins only 25% or so).

NextLevel
04-23-2020, 04:55 PM
I actually think, in almost any other sport, it is more possible than in TT. I do think it is still possible. But not quite as possible in TT. In some sports like baseball and tennis, there are notable times when a player who ultimately becomes a top level player, does not have that talent surface until their mid to late teens.

Can anyone think of an example of this in the last 25 years of TT?

I do know someone who started to play TT seriously at about 13 who became quite a high level player. But that person grew up with a tennis court (tennis not table tennis) in his back yard and the ability to take as much high level TT coaching as he liked where, as far as I know, money did not seem to be an obstacle. He fell a bit short of his expectations but he did get to a peak of 2700 (USATT) rating. But he had been playing racket sports since he was quite young even if he had not been playing Table Tennis. So, he had some things going for him from the start.

There are a few reasons it is harder to start later in TT than in most sports. I think the amount of technique as apposed to power that is required in TT, the amount of touch and feel, these are unique to TT and it is hard, without years of practice and training to develop those subtle skills that determine just precisely how you touch the ball.

Also, because of how close the opponent is, and how fast the ball can come back, this actually makes it fairly hard to cement good technique into muscle memory because every time you feel rushed, it encourages old bad habits to resurface.

Again, I do think it is still possible. It is just very hard in TT where it is still hard but not quite as hard in many other sports.


I think the problem is processing the ball - it takes an immense amount of computational power to estimate spin and ball trajectory and I think it is hard to dedicate enough of the brain to doing this as you get older and then automate reactions to be instinctive. I don't think the problems would be as significant if spin was less of an issue in the sport.

zyu81
04-23-2020, 04:58 PM
My clubmate started when he was 11 years old. Now he is 18, plays second league (he is over 75%) and just participated in his first world tour. Also know someone who played on 4th league level and a few years ago, when he was close to 60 years old his game skyrocketed and now plays 2nd league (though if I remember correctly he wins only 25% or so).

To be fair Hungary is not really a table tennis powerhouse, probably less competitive than in Brazil

UpSideDownCarl
04-23-2020, 05:08 PM
I think the problem is processing the ball - it takes an immense amount of computational power to estimate spin and ball trajectory and I think it is hard to dedicate enough of the brain to doing this as you get older and then automate reactions to be instinctive. I don't think the problems would be as significant if spin was less of an issue in the sport.

This is a great point.

Lula
04-23-2020, 06:43 PM
Unmotivated?

davizoosk
04-23-2020, 06:55 PM
Unmotivated?
no more

driversbeat
04-24-2020, 03:10 PM
lol @ all the old men trying to crush the dreams of a young boy. I'm sure all of you had realistic career goals at 15. Give me a break.

@davizoosk: Now is the best time for you to invest all your time and energy into table tennis. Will you become a pro? Highly unlikely. But that doesn't mean that you can't benefit from devoting yourself to table tennis for a couple of years. So what if you can't make a career out of it? So many of us on this forum would love to have the luxury of spending 6 hours at the table everyday. Do it while you can. There might never be a time in your life again when you are this passionate about table tennis, and all you'll be left with is regret thinking that you should have tried harder.

tomahawk11
04-24-2020, 06:18 PM
I only started when I was 24 and I've been playing for 2 years now. Before I found table tennis I was in a very bad place, but now table tennis brings me joy in life. I also have the ambition to go pro, even though no one will believe it to be possible. It doesn't matter what other people think, just pursue your own goals with no regrets. I think that is the best way to live life.

Kaizoku
04-24-2020, 06:55 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXsQAXx_ao0

Simas
04-24-2020, 09:27 PM
Nope. A guy just starting at 15 is not going to be a pro, no matter how hard you believe or how many songs you listen to.

yea, unfortunately, that how it works. And all that if you work hard you will be on the top of the world eventually is neither supported by by logic nor by evidence. And don't forget it's table tennis, not a tennis, so to be a pro, you have to be not in top 1000 (speculating here :) ), but in top 100 in the whole world. So...

Dr Evil
04-24-2020, 09:36 PM
I am 15 years old, what is the chance of becoming a professional? I'm feeling very late compared to Tomokazu Harimoto...
Estimate about 70 million 15 year old boys on Earth right now. To catch Harimoto from a dead start you'd have to be the proverbial one in a million athlete, so let's say there are 70 kids who might be able to do it. These are the best of the best athletes and competitors. By age 15 most are already sports stars with a good chance at a pro career or the Olympics. But let's say a quarter of them never had the opportunity or motivation to choose a particular sport -- now we're down to 20 kids -- until their father gets them some table tennis equipment for their 15th birthday. Now 10 kids get Viscarias with Tenergy 05 so they're eliminated. But the other 10 kids get Appelgren Allplays with Vega Pro; these kids have a chance. That makes 10 out of 70 million. So your current odds are 1 in 7 million. On the upside, that's 50 times better than the odds of winning the Powerball lottery. On the downside, 10 times worse than getting struck by lightning this year.

Baal
04-24-2020, 09:53 PM
yea, unfortunately, that how it works. And all that if you work hard you will be on the top of the world eventually is neither supported by by logic nor by evidence. And don't forget it's table tennis, not a tennis, so to be a pro, you have to be not in top 1000 (speculating here :) ), but in top 100 in the whole world. So...

Which is fairly rarely accomplished by players in the Western hemisphere, although Brazil does better than most.

Simas
04-24-2020, 09:55 PM
Estimate about 70 million 15 year old boys on Earth right now. To catch Harimoto from a dead start you'd have to be the proverbial one in a million athlete, so let's say there are 70 kids who might be able to do it. These are the best of the best athletes and competitors. By age 15 most are already sports stars with a good chance at a pro career or the Olympics. But let's say a quarter of them never had the opportunity or motivation to choose a particular sport -- now we're down to 20 kids -- until their father gets them some table tennis equipment for their 15th birthday. Now 10 kids get Viscarias with Tenergy 05 so they're eliminated. But the other 10 kids get Appelgren Allplays with Vega Pro; these kids have a chance. That makes 10 out of 70 million. So your current odds are 1 in 7 million. On the upside, that's 50 times better than the odds of winning the Powerball lottery. On the downside, 10 times worse than getting struck by lightning this year.

interesting assumptions, but the point is loud and clear :D

Simas
04-24-2020, 09:59 PM
Which is fairly rarely accomplished by players in the Western hemisphere, although Brazil does better than most.

exactly. You have to account for what it seems superior training system in China compared to the one in Western part too :)

lightspin
04-24-2020, 10:22 PM
I think the problem is processing the ball - it takes an immense amount of computational power to estimate spin and ball trajectory and I think it is hard to dedicate enough of the brain to doing this as you get older and then automate reactions to be instinctive. I don't think the problems would be as significant if spin was less of an issue in the sport.

NextLevel is spot on with his analysis. I think table tennis is more like speaking a language than playing a typical sport. Something happens and you must instantaneously react in the correct manner. How many people do you know that learned a second language as an adult and speak perfectly, understanding the slang and have no accent? Now suppose you are trying to trip this person up by using slang or complicated phrases in weird ways. If you are speaking to a native speaker, they will understand most of the time. If you speaking to someone who learned in their 20s, good luck to the other person.

The later you start playing, the harder it is for you to become fluent. You could be the quickest, strongest and smartest guy in the world. In table tennis what matters is how quickly you can judge what is going on and how fast you can make the correct decision. Kids who start at 2 or 6 just instantly know what is going on. For others, it's practically impossible to develop the skill. With that being said, still do your best. It is up to you to determine how good you get.

davizoosk
04-24-2020, 10:34 PM
thank you all for your help, i learned here and understood my chances. are minimal, I watched games in front of you and thought "look how easy this exchange of units must have been", "how easy the reception must be, how the forehand movement is easy to catch", then I started to look at it from another perspective , I saw Ryu Seung Min jumping and screaming after winning the 2004 Athens Olympics, I realized how difficult it was, how fast it was, how he and Wang Hao were celebrating each point. I personally watched games. And I realized, now the plug has dropped. Thanks to everyone again, I will train everyone, I will try as hard as I can. Some have said hard that I'm not going to make it, well, who knows. Thank you for your opinion, experience and speech. I will try until the end. First I will try the High School School Games, I still have 2 years to participate since this year was canceled due to covid. After high school, regional games, and finally national games. It will not be easy, I will follow small steps, I no longer want to be seen only as a dreamer, but with someone who is trying, I don't want them to laugh anymore. thanks for the motivations and the reality you presented.

Der_Echte
04-24-2020, 11:14 PM
NextLevel is spot on with his analysis. I think table tennis is more like speaking a language than playing a typical sport...

...The later you start playing, the harder it is for you to become fluent.

I wish it really was like that. I speak 4 languages, learned the 3 the I learned as adult. The two that I spent any continued time I did very well. One of them, almost native.

If only TT were so easy as learning language... and learning language to be functional to the point of thinking instinctively in that language... that is damned difficult.

So TT is REALLY difficult to learn.

... but on a level, I totally agree, so many similar possibilities of neuron association and high level functioning. In particular, with adults, the same approaches to training kids simply are not effective. The reps need to be there, so there is that similarity, but you do not tell an adult "Strike the Ball" and ask them to do that a few thousand times and expect mastery. Adult minds just do not pick it up like that. Maybe if they know how and why and have a progressive approach that isolated complex things one by one or two by two... and they get the reps... then there is often good progress.

... especially agree with the part of starting later... I started as a fat/40 rec player... kina typical story.

ajtatosmano2
04-25-2020, 01:20 AM
To be fair Hungary is not really a table tennis powerhouse, probably less competitive than in Brazil
That's true, but professional means the main mean of income. You don't have to play world tours. And I am not sure how stronger Brazilian table tennis is (other than Hugo and Tsuboi and Ishy).
What about Keenan Southall? He started late, or not? How does he play now?
And I believe many people underestimate how important talent is. If he's talented and trains hard and smart I believe he can be a pro. Without talent...it's not so likely, but we don't know if it's possible. I guess most of the "I wanna be a pro but I started late" guys are giving up too early or they didn't practice smart and hard enough. enough. So we never see how far can someone get when he starts late.

Baal
04-25-2020, 01:35 AM
Also, unless our OP lives in Sao Paolo it is even more hopeless.

zyu81
04-25-2020, 01:37 AM
That's true, but professional means the main mean of income. You don't have to play world tours. And I am not sure how stronger Brazilian table tennis is (other than Hugo and Tsuboi and Ishy).
What about Keenan Southall? He started late, or not? How does he play now?
And I believe many people underestimate how important talent is. If he's talented and trains hard and smart I believe he can be a pro. Without talent...it's not so likely, but we don't know if it's possible. I guess most of the "I wanna be a pro but I started late" guys are giving up too early or they didn't practice smart and hard enough. enough. So we never see how far can someone get when he starts late.

Sadly people who are that rare prodigy with exceptional talent usually get noticed and thus wouldn't be asking on a forum.

And Keenan Southall is nowhere near a professional level, it is concerning that you mention that in conjunction with your own goals to go pro, the bar may be a lot higher than you seem to think it is.

ajtatosmano2
04-25-2020, 01:41 AM
Sadly people who are that rare prodigy with exceptional talent usually get noticed and thus wouldn't be asking on a forum.

And Keenan Southall is nowhere near a professional level, it is concerning that you mention that in conjunction with your own goals to go pro, the bar may be a lot higher than you seem to think it is.

I asked about Keenan, because I didn't know where he is now, but remembered that he decided to go pro late.

zyu81
04-25-2020, 01:43 AM
I asked about Keenan, because I didn't know where he is now, but remembered that he decided to go pro late.

If by "going pro" you mean training and playing full time, sure, unfortunately he is nowhere near the pro level so that probably isn't a very encouraging example.

Der_Echte
04-25-2020, 05:33 AM
I asked about Keenan, because I didn't know where he is now, but remembered that he decided to go pro late.

I played a match vs Keenan in a 4 star tourney a few months ago. He was rated (I think right at 2100 USATT) only a few dozen points more than me (which by rating at that level is maybe a 1/3 to 1/2 of a level of difference). His actual play level is prolly more like 2200 USATT. Typical of a developing attacking young player - rating always lagging true play level.

I won my first game vs him, then he listened to coach and used his advantages and the rest of the match and it was over for me. Game 4, I went up 7-3 and thought if I could pull off game 4, mentally, he wouldn't be in good shape. After a short pause... He ended up winning every point the rest of the game to win the match. That shows very good mental toughness along with the inconsistency of a young player.

That should tell you a little about the kid. He has a typical strong offensive attacking topspin game can play fast and cover a lot of ground. Struggles vs heavy slow spin and change of pace shots. Again, typical for a developing young offensive pro-style trained kid trained to play fast.

To put into Keenan's level. Regardless of his lower than his true level official USATT rating, he is 2200 level player at the time I faced him in Feb 2020 at that 4 star tourney in the Quarter finals of U2200 or whatever event it was.

2200 USATT is an achievement for anyone, I would be very happy to eventually crack that level... but for real though, 2200 means you are a good player, a true bad-ass, but not even close to being an elite amateur... and that is a far cry from professional level.

Once you crack 2500, you are approaching elite USA amateur... and even then, at that level - 200 points - you are 5-6 levels from truly being able to contend for a national team slot...

Let's see... 2200 to 2500 USATT is 300 points... and at that level, that is about 5 levels.

So, Keenan is about 5 levels from being 5 levels of being an elite amateur capable of contending for natl team slot.

That is still some serious bad-ass level now... still only 5% of USA player can even get to that level, so a big achievement. I do not know what his top end potential is, but I would not think it is much more than 2500. Could be wrong, let's say I would expect him to train and make that level in 6 years if he keeps playing.

Greg Bartz, now NYC based, started as an amateur player just playing club matches in Korea... after 10 years, he developed touch and control of rallies... prolly was 2300 level when he left... he cracked 2400 level at LA Open 2019, he defeated a solid veteran 2500 level player to earn that level...

So... not impossible with time to do some amazing stuff. Greg started TT as a 30 yr adult no background in TT. 12-13 yrs total played and started likely under 1000 level now 2400 level.

Der_Echte
04-25-2020, 05:43 AM
To put it into even more understandable terms... right now, I credit Keena with an additional level above his official rating.

He would need to improve 10 levels to get to 2700 USATT level.

2700 USATT among the pro crowd is pretty much like you getting 2 weeks of emergency Taekwondo training, then have to go onto the mat and face a Korean Champion... your training is only enough to get you into trouble.

A 2700 USATT player, if they face a PRO TT Player... who we would consider to be WR50 for starters... That level starts at 2800 USATT for starters. AT that level, 100 points is almost like 4 levels.

Hou Yingchao in LA Open 2018 in the dim cave in the finals faced a Bay Area Club Coach (Swan Warriors) who was rated real close to 2700. Hou was maybe rated low 2800s.

Hou made that Swan Warriors coach looked so silly like he was in his first week of lessons. Hou would chop a ball with his SP, 2700 level coach would try to ouch it back over... ball would go maybe 6 inches before it hit the table two feet short of the net. hou would float chop a ball, Swan Warrior 2700 would loop it, but ball would be out by 2 meters. Average score if Hou played serious would be 11-3.

So... Keenan is 10 levels of improvement away from getting crushed 11-3 in a match vs a pro... yet in real terms, truly, Keenan is a certified bad-ass that only 5% of Americans have achieved his play level.

That is the perspective to take away.

UpSideDownCarl
04-25-2020, 08:08 AM
Sadly people who are that rare prodigy with exceptional talent usually get noticed and thus wouldn't be asking on a forum.

And Keenan Southall is nowhere near a professional level, it is concerning that you mention that in conjunction with your own goals to go pro, the bar may be a lot higher than you seem to think it is.


I asked about Keenan, because I didn't know where he is now, but remembered that he decided to go pro late.


If by "going pro" you mean training and playing full time, sure, unfortunately he is nowhere near the pro level so that probably isn't a very encouraging example.

Zyu has a good point here. And Keenan went to a full time training in a foreign country and started out as a mid level player and got to be a higher mid level player. He got pretty good for an amateur. So I don't want to nock the improvements he made. But he started out at a decent level and increased his level. Which is not a good comparison to someone who at 15 is playing for 1 year, starting and wanting to get to be top tier level player.

I mean, put simply, the age they start at in China and the amount of training those kids who start at 4 and by the time they are 7 they are doing 6 hours of training 6 days a week, there is a reason the top European players who start at 8 and do 4-5 hours of training 5 days a week can never really catch up.

But, it is still worth trying. So, I would still say go for it. There are things you will learn and many of them not about table tennis that could help you for the rest of your life. So, go for it. But keep some options open so that you are positioned to use your talents when you do need to pay the bills. There is not a better time to go for your passion than at 15. But keep your options open when you need to support yourself.

yoass
04-25-2020, 08:52 AM
Do we know of greats, past and present, that started at a later age?

I vaguely recall Werner Schlager might qualify, but can’t think of any other.

ajtatosmano2
04-25-2020, 04:44 PM
Do we know of greats, past and present, that started at a later age?

I vaguely recall Werner Schlager might qualify, but can’t think of any other.

"Schlager began playing table tennis when he was six years old, learning from his father, Rudolph Schlager and brother, Harald Schlager who were also top Austrian players, making them ideal training partners" Quoted from the wikipedia.

yoass
04-25-2020, 05:18 PM
"Schlager began playing table tennis when he was six years old, learning from his father, Rudolph Schlager and brother, Harald Schlager who were also top Austrian players, making them ideal training partners" Quoted from the wikipedia.

Not even Schlager, then…

Baal
04-25-2020, 05:21 PM
One thing about usa ratings too is they are not linear really. Going from 2000 to 2200 is probably easier than 2400 to 2600.

UpSideDownCarl
04-25-2020, 06:00 PM
One thing about usa ratings too is they are not linear really. Going from 2000 to 2200 is probably easier than 2400 to 2600.

Said differently, and I think this is accurate:

* Going from 1200 to 1400 is easier than going from 1400 to 1600
* Going from 1400 to 1600 is easier than going from 1600 to 1800
* Going from 1600 to 1800 is easier than going from 1800 to 2000
* Going from 1800 to 2000 is easier than going from 2000 to 2200
* Going from 2000 to 2200 is easier than going from 2200 to 2400
* Going from 2000 to 2200 is easier than going from 2200 to 2400
* Going from 2200 to 2400 is easier than going from 2400 to 2500
* Going from 2400 to 2500 is easier than going from 2500 to 2600

** Note, the number gap got smaller after 2400. And I can think of quite a few talented players who get stuck in the 2300-2400 range and seem to just hit a wall that they cannot break over.

ajtatosmano2
04-25-2020, 06:21 PM
I miss the ELO based rating in Hungary. It would be so much easier to estimate someone's playing level. When I talked about this with the federation's development manager, he told, that the current ranking works for a long time now and a revision would be more of a hassle than good.

Baal
04-25-2020, 09:30 PM
Another point. Nearly every kid I ever saw who started fairly young and had lots of coaching made it to 2250 or even 2300. Quite a few. A few anti-talents stalled out at 2000. But only a few got past that. I think three reached 2550-2600. This is going back to around 1990. Areas with more clubs and juniors will produce more put the proportions will be similar.

mart1nandersson
04-25-2020, 10:11 PM
Listening to Americans referring to USATT ratings is bit like Kenyans commenting on the state of world ice hockey.

zyu81
04-25-2020, 10:59 PM
Listening to Americans referring to USATT ratings is bit like Kenyans commenting on the state of world ice hockey.

How ?

mart1nandersson
04-25-2020, 11:08 PM
How ?

I've seen 12 year olds with a Swedish rating of about 1400 beat the crap out of USATT 2000+ and I've also seen USATT 2000+ stand their ground pretty ok against Swedish division 3 players (5th tier national level who usually has a Swedish rating a bit north of 2100). The rating in the US doesn't seem to be very consistent and the average level seem to be very poor.

zyu81
04-25-2020, 11:33 PM
I've seen 12 year olds with a Swedish rating of about 1400 beat the crap out of USATT 2000+ and I've also seen USATT 2000+ stand their ground pretty ok against Swedish division 3 players (5th tier national level who usually has a Swedish rating a bit north of 2100). The rating in the US doesn't seem to be very consistent and the average level seem to be very poor.

And how do you know that the Swedish system isn't consistent then? And what do you mean by average level being poor?

Richie
04-25-2020, 11:56 PM
I've seen 12 year olds with a Swedish rating of about 1400 beat the crap out of USATT 2000+ and I've also seen USATT 2000+ stand their ground pretty ok against Swedish division 3 players (5th tier national level who usually has a Swedish rating a bit north of 2100). The rating in the US doesn't seem to be very consistent and the average level seem to be very poor.

It is kind of interesting how level is relative is to different places.

Swedens general level seems to be pretty high compared to most countries. When I played in England there seemed to be many more players but the general level was much lower. In Sweden, even many players who have strange styles and technique are pretty decent compared to similar players in England.

Some have estimated me to be at around 2200 USATT level and I don't feel like I'm a very good player here. There are lots of players around my level and way above. More difficult to find those players in England for example. I would guess it's similar in the US. The US and England hasn't had such a strong TT culture in the past so it makes sense.

Der_Echte
04-26-2020, 02:14 AM
The average "club" level in USA for TT is pretty low, but it is all relative, but even in absolute terms average USATT "club" player level is pretty low and awkward. You have to understand the average USATT "Club", like 3/4+ of them are not conventional full time operating with competent coaching... it is usually a rented community center or school hall where they setup tables for a couple hours, play matches, then put the tables back up.

Even the nation of KOREA, which is respected worldwide for a very high level of TT... even their amateur system is pretty weak. The average Korean club level is pretty close to USA average club level.. and 80% of Korean players are in a band that is one level above to 2-3 levels below average club level... which means most of them suck compared to a more developed and organized nation's amateur TT. Even the top level is pretty weak, much weaker than USA, which is considered weak.

The Koreans have a system to pick out promising athletes and train them early... they do not allow the pro trained athletes to compete in amateur TT tourneys, except only in national tourneys in the "Pro Player" division.

My trip to Copenhagen, I played with TT Ninja who was Div 1 in his country. I made it to 5 games vs him and lost.. at the time I was 50 pts below 2000 level California. I would say Ninja was at least solid 2150s plus level USATT. There were several other players who seemed near his level at the club in Copenhagen.

Der_Echte
04-26-2020, 02:24 AM
Because of the "must play matches" nature of most USA clubs, there is no training, no coaching going on. MAYBE, a better player will use the 15 minute slot to teach someone something on his last match on table as a favor, but on the whole, USA players are not coached there.

In a REAL full time club, which we are seeing more and more of, there will be a full time coach, or maybe one more, or several. You are looking at $50 USD an hour and in the places with higher level player/coaches, $80 - $100 an hour.

Adults, unless they are independently wealthy, do not seek lessons too much, very few do, some, but damn few. There are a few MILLIONAIRES in my local club who wear the same $3 white t-shirt to the club, and have not changed their bat's rubbers in almost a decade. They use everyone else's balls or a practice ball from the floor. They buy non-tt shoes from Walmart.

I am hands down the best coach for adults in the region, I charge $30 an hour, and I do not have very many players kicking down barriers to reach me. My rates are less than half of the high level dude who mostly doesn't teach much to an adult, but there are not many adults trying to learn by paying for lessons. A year of two of lessons is an almost-must-do for an adult learner starting out in TT, but here in the relatively rich area, even rich people shun lessons.

In their heart, they want to improve and play better, but they either do not want to pus aside their Scrooge side, or do not want to put in the work.

That is what you got in USA.

Mostly, the ones taking lessons are the kids who have parents that really like and respect TT and want to see their kids do well at it.

Lula
04-26-2020, 06:29 AM
Do not have the adult training group due to studies But it really really worked well. Think this becomes more and more common in Sweden. Private training is not common in Sweden. I am against it and Would never offer my services that way. Feel like only the people with money have the opportunity then.

Regarding the OP question. If you were unmotivated and just become motivated you really really need to step up. The guys that become pros live and breathe Tabletennis. I think your interest and attitude need to skyrock if You are going to become better. Becoming a pro means not doing alot of other stuff, sacrifices. Like Waldner, do not really have much else.

Der_Echte
04-26-2020, 07:20 AM
Lula, if you came to USA and looked to go to a club to coach and get paid, you would be flat broke in no time expecting to do it with general group training.

In USA, a coach isn't brought in by the TT club to just stand there, breath oxygen, look official, and collect a paycheck. There are zero full time coaches hired for the specific purpose of group training with some individual attention. The club brings in a coach to provide individual training. Club makes a percentage of the fees, coach collects the rest.

I charge $30 an hour and give club $10.

That is about half of what I should be charging.

In USA, no so many people are interested in a group lesson with some moments of individual attention. There are some clubs offereing it, mostly beginners do it, but it isn't in every club. People who go to the club pay a monthly fee to use the full time facility to practice or play matches, sometimes all day long every day if they are retired.

It is typical to pay $40-$70 USD a month to do this... it isn't a bad deal in most places. USA people on the whole are just not interested in paying a much higher amount that would allow hiring a full time coach like Lula and his level to train group or individual as part of membership fee. With a club that has 100 memebrs, you would need to make everyone pay $200 USD a month to make this possible. Not everyone, actually few, would take the group and individual time enough to make it a value, so why is the American gunna pay all that money? Not gunna happen.

Sure, clubs offer some group lessons, but it is essentially private lessons watered down for a group with a reduced charge. Sure, some clubs even give certain members or just general members a group lesson for an hour on say a Sat AM. This is pretty much to get beginners to come to the club, like it, and become paying memebrs.

In Korea, you can pay around $60 USD a month to play every day and be part of the club - a great deal. You can pay $150 a month to get 10 lessons a month that last 20 minutes. (A fit 20 yr old dude may not survive past 10 minutes without calling for a portable defibulator machine) That is also a good deal. A lot of Koreans are inclined to do that, so a normal club with 4-6 tables and 150 members has half or more taking lessons... it allows the owner to hire 1-2 more coaches... now they do not make a lot of money, but if they live with mom and do not go shopping, they can get ahead.

In Europe, there is support for sport inmany ways, both direct financial and indrect with facilities. No way to manage an operation without this involvement. That takes some govt decision to see supporting sport as a positive effective way to save money to prevent crime or increase some goal, etc... and the people who pay all the taxes support it... so it is good with everyone.. so ti can work there.. and that is great. Europe is great in that fashion in they pretty much figure out how to collectively get along with their high tax money and agree on its allocation more or less. USA is never gunna get like that.

A lot of the world doesn't work that with taxes, govt, and voter support.

Der_Echte
04-26-2020, 07:24 AM
There are some people who offocially or unofficially volunteer to help others for free in a club.

I do that a lot. Maybe that is why I am terrible at getting a lot of people to pay me for lessons, they know I will help them out anyway. There are a number of Vietnamese and Chinese O60 retired crowd that play all day from 10 AM to 6 or 7 PM. I get off work and go to the club after work a few days a week and often hit with this crowd for an hour or so. Sometimes I buy stuff to help them out, even if they are prolly 10x richer than me. Before Corona, I bout a big Joola ball cart to hol balls for them to use for multiball. I asked then to mark the cart for their use. I donated a tripod with cell phone adapter, so they could video their stroke when they want.

All in all, a lot of that crowd wants to get better, but they are not gunna get private lessons, they are pretty much hapy with playing doubles and singles all day long.

Der_Echte
04-26-2020, 07:27 AM
Some of the time I spend with the recreational retired crowd at my club is just to "Goof-Off".. I play a relaxed doubles or singles or single ball from cart..., but goofing off has some benefits... it is relaxing and you are actually working on feel and touch or movement without pressure or rigor of training... over time, it has an effect.

UpSideDownCarl
04-26-2020, 03:59 PM
Listening to Americans referring to USATT ratings is bit like Kenyans commenting on the state of world ice hockey.

I do think you make a few interesting points.

I think the rating numbers are just a reference point and it is true it is hard to transfer the USATT numbers to the German TTR system or other rating systems. It is just to get a base level. But it is true. The base level in Sweden is higher than in USA by a good amount. And that also makes it seem that, if you start in a place where the base level is higher, you probably have a better chance of getting to a higher level.

But I have a feeling that also makes it so it is less likely that you have someone who doesn't start till 15 years old, doesn't show any notable talent for the sport and the person is starting while never having played any other racket sports.

I would say, transplanting that person into Sweden or China, it still would make it hard for that person to get to the levels of the highest rankings in either country.

But, if you grew up in Sweden, played casually as a kid, were surrounded by good players, and at 15 decided you wanted to start, you might have a better chance of getting to a decent level given the right coaching and training schedule.

I have a story. Something related to low level of play in USA. I was at SPiN. This is probably 5 years ago, maybe 6. I was messing around, hitting with a friend. This guy came up to us. He was with his family. Wife, 2 kids. He was probably about my current age (55). He was a big guy. A little overweight. He had had several beers and I would say he was fairly drunk. He was from Sweden. He came up to us and said, he was looking around and that it looked like me and my friend were the only people in the club who actually had any idea how to play. (This was true). He said he hadn't played in about 30 years but he would appreciate us hitting with him for a little. We did.

He was way better than either of us despite having had several pints and not having played in 30 years. So we are rotating and having fun. And I know a friend who works across the street who happens to be working. And this guy is somewhere between 2200-2300 USATT rated. So, considerably better than me or my training partner. And the guy from Sweden really is not challenged by playing with either of us.

So, my friend comes and joins us and he starts playing the guy from Sweden and they decide to play a match. For the first two games, the games are close but my friend is winning. The first game was something like 11-7. The second game he won at deuce. After that, he could not get a game off the guy from Sweden. Scores decended like: 7, 4, 3, 2.....

So, yeah, talking about USATT rating is not really a good assessment of the rest of the world. It is just to give an idea and a base level.

The point of the numbers was, as you get closer and closer to ratings that are normal for players in the top 100, it gets harder and harder to progress and get to higher levels. It would not matter if you used a rating system from Germany or Sweden. That part of the point is the one that matters.

This guy we met, he was pretty good as a kid.

I had something similar happen at a different place where this guy from Denmark started playing me with a junk racket that this bar had for people to use. I saw instantly he could play and that it made no sense him playing with a toy. I had an extra racket and said he could use it. This guy also hadn't played in a while. He was younger though, in his 30s. But he was much better than the guy from Sweden. After we played a while and had fun, and I confess, he was pretty gracious because he was sooooooooooo much better than me. But he realized that, aside from him, I was the next best player in the place. So he was nice to me as we played.

Anyway, we talked after and it turned out that as a kid he played and trained with Michael Maze. No wonder he was so good. He also told me how, after Maze had that crazy comeback against Hao Shuai, how that night, CNT had someone calling Maze's room or knocking on the door all night to try and keep him from getting sleep.

But yeah, USA has a low overall level compared to countries that are competitive in the sport. And yeah, the numbers are not completely transparent. They are just to give a general baseline.

mart1nandersson
04-26-2020, 04:31 PM
Do not have the adult training group due to studies But it really really worked well. Think this becomes more and more common in Sweden. Private training is not common in Sweden. I am against it and Would never offer my services that way. Feel like only the people with money have the opportunity then.

Regarding the OP question. If you were unmotivated and just become motivated you really really need to step up. The guys that become pros live and breathe Tabletennis. I think your interest and attitude need to skyrock if You are going to become better. Becoming a pro means not doing alot of other stuff, sacrifices. Like Waldner, do not really have much else.

I would disagree. Private training is becoming more and more common especially for the kids. We have a few kids in the club in the age span 11-13 who trains 5-6 times a week with the club and then compliments it with lessons with other coaches (Sjöberg for example) weekly or biweekly. I know that kids from the other clubs are doing similar things.

mart1nandersson
04-26-2020, 04:42 PM
So, yeah, talking about USATT rating is not really a good assessment of the rest of the world. It is just to give an idea and a base level.


But is it even a baseline within the US? I've only seen two 2000 USATT players live (I prefer live or youtube as you see the matches in a different way) and their skill levels were miles a part. The first one would struggle in division 5 here in Stockholm but the other guy wouldn't make a fool out of himself in division 1 to 3.

UpSideDownCarl
04-26-2020, 05:23 PM
But is it even a baseline within the US? I've only seen two 2000 USATT players live (I prefer live or youtube as you see the matches in a different way) and their skill levels were miles a part. The first one would struggle in division 5 here in Stockholm but the other guy wouldn't make a fool out of himself in division 1 to 3.

I do think this is also a good and interesting point. In US I think there are a certain number of real junk players who are not skilled at the sport but know how to win against people who don't know how to play against them. And it is stuff that would not work in any other sport. So, the rating #s are just not perfect.

And because of the nature of TT, I have seen guys who look amazing in practice and then you watch them play matches and they are not as good at playing matches as their technique looks when they are training. But at the higher numbers it gets closer and closer to having a meaning. Like, someone who is just a junk ball player who does not have real skills is unlikely get to a 2600 rating. As the level gets higher, there is more need for skill even if a player relies on a high level of deception. That alone won't work at above a certain level.

And in spite of the imperfection of the system, I am not sure if there is another way for someone from USA to convey a base level where someone has skills at playing the game. So, it is an imperfect measure. And the question is: is it better than no measure at all?

I am not sure the answer to that question. But I think enough people will have a general idea of what is meant when someone says, this player was 2200 (USATT). That is all those numbers are for. If someone said 1700 TTR (German system), I would have a general idea that that was somewhere in the ballpark of 2100-2400 (USATT). In other words, 1700 TTR is referring to a player who is fairly solid fundamentally, even if there could be a player who is more, or less fundamentally solid who has that TTR rating.

Lula
04-26-2020, 08:03 PM
Now i would day it is more common due to the virus But i Do not like the Idea of private coaching. Becomes to much like tennis. Feel like the equal opportunities is then out of the door. Maybe it is okay with private coaching But still need group practice so everyone can participate. I think alot of swedish clubs get money from having alot of youth players That pay member and training fees when participating in organized group practice. Alot of tournaments, sedlig stuff and sponsor Also being in the money.

mart1nandersson
04-26-2020, 08:23 PM
Now i would day it is more common due to the virus But i Do not like the Idea of private coaching. Becomes to much like tennis. Feel like the equal opportunities is then out of the door. Maybe it is okay with private coaching But still need group practice so everyone can participate. I think alot of swedish clubs get money from having alot of youth players That pay member and training fees when participating in organized group practice. Alot of tournaments, sedlig stuff and sponsor Also being in the money.

I kind of agree and not agree. The typical Swedish club is like a pyramid for the kids. You’ll have something like 4-6 training groups based on skill level from beginner to “elite”. The beginner groups will have a factor 2-4 more kids compared to the more advanced groups. There’s equal opportunity in he sense that you will get multi ball time and attention if you have talent combined with your coach liking you or otherwise you’ll either quit or find alternatives such as private coaching.

The kids that do not have the talent is funding the training for the very good players. Most clubs would not survive without the money from the average/less talented players.

I’m quite new to the sport and respect your view as you’re very experienced but I’ve talked to so many upset parents that I have a very clear view of how it works in different clubs. I work at a place with more than 2000 employees (many Chinese colleagues) and it’s quite amazing how many of their kids that play TT. I had no idea about this before I started.

Sorry for hijacking the thread.

Der_Echte
04-26-2020, 10:06 PM
What HijackY?

You and Lula are having a real talk and it is very relevant to TT and training and development.

A LOT of members have no idea how TT clubs work outside their small area.

Your "Hijacky" is clearly beneficial.

ajtatosmano2
04-26-2020, 10:38 PM
The average "club" level in USA for TT is pretty low, but it is all relative, but even in absolute terms average USATT "club" player level is pretty low and awkward. You have to understand the average USATT "Club", like 3/4+ of them are not conventional full time operating with competent coaching... it is usually a rented community center or school hall where they setup tables for a couple hours, play matches, then put the tables back up.

Even the nation of KOREA, which is respected worldwide for a very high level of TT... even their amateur system is pretty weak. The average Korean club level is pretty close to USA average club level.. and 80% of Korean players are in a band that is one level above to 2-3 levels below average club level... which means most of them suck compared to a more developed and organized nation's amateur TT. Even the top level is pretty weak, much weaker than USA, which is considered weak.

The Koreans have a system to pick out promising athletes and train them early... they do not allow the pro trained athletes to compete in amateur TT tourneys, except only in national tourneys in the "Pro Player" division.

My trip to Copenhagen, I played with TT Ninja who was Div 1 in his country. I made it to 5 games vs him and lost.. at the time I was 50 pts below 2000 level California. I would say Ninja was at least solid 2150s plus level USATT. There were several other players who seemed near his level at the club in Copenhagen.

Leagues differ a lot. Here Country division is one level below National Div 4.

Der_Echte
04-27-2020, 01:21 AM
The Koreans use City/Regional divisions for classification mostly. Some clubs use a club division classification, if they have a lot of beginners in different stages.

There is also the national division classification. Some Div 1 City are Div national or Div 3 nationl level. You have to win to move up to the next division, but only at that national tourney. So if you win the DMZ open Div 4, you are Div 3 in that tourney the next year, but still Div 4 national everywhere else until you win again, and even then you are next higher division only at that tourney.

Der_Echte
04-27-2020, 01:26 AM
Koreans are mostly motivated to stay lower division for the TEAM event. Why? HANDICAP. if a player is Div 2 national play level, but keeps his classification at Div 4 national, he gets a 3 pt handicap from the equal level player who was simply honest in his efforts to win tourneys.

This also stacks the top end ridiculous better than rest of field.

If you are a middle of the road Div 4 national player and you go to a large national tourney, you can play 3 levels better than your true level and maybe not reach the round of 64. That is how stacked the divisions are at the top. Maybe 5 levels of different between the top contenders and upper part of middle of the road pack in Div 4.

All divisions in a national tourney are like that. Doesn't matter how good you are, unless you are truly 5 or 6 levels better than the top 30% of players in your field, you have zero chance to go very far, if you even manage to advance out of group stage.

lightspin
04-27-2020, 01:33 AM
One fact people might be overlooking about "2000 rated players" is that they might not be telling the truth about their rating. All the time in the club people ask me to train and then spout off some rating. More often than not what they say and what their max rating was, are two different numbers very far apart. I cut people some slack because even both my current rating and league rating in the database are wrong, but they are not 600-1000 points off like a few people I have run into.

Another fact to consider is if you watch someone in a tournament or in practice. I know a lot of 2200-2400 people who simply don't care at all about practice games. They use practice games to practice. Run into them in a tournament or play them for money and you probably will see something close to their real level. I learned this the hard way as one of my old practice partners was over 2400 and we would split matches in training. When we played in an official tournament he crushed me. As we shook hands after he laughed and said "Practice is for practice" and all I could to is laugh back in agreement.

Der_Echte
04-27-2020, 02:37 AM
Martin's observation about USATT 2000...

He may have seen two entirely different styles or abilities to cope with a certain style.

There are also some players who look REALLY GOOD in warm-up with near-pro strokes and timing, but in matches, they lose enough points to lose games and that player isn't as high as he looks.

Some players just naturally cope with certain shots or play style better. IF dude is real good a step behind table counter-looping, it may look like he could "Hang" at a higher level of play. There may also be reasons why that player is lower than it may appear.

All systems that use a point total based on win/losses with adjustments... all these systems are simply in comparison to others in the same system.

Even in your national divisions, there are several levels of play level in those divisions and some will do well or poor vs something.

I am pretty much the opposite, my practice looks garbage and I play matches better.

In Korea, opposite as when I was there (now changed some) NO ONE had a BH topspin heavy... so I walk into a club off the street zero lessons zero coaching and can make a heavy spin loop BH real easy... they think I am better than Div 1, which is 2000-2200 USATT... and all the time, I was just a rec player at 1600 level... 5 levels or so below their Div 1 standard when I started.

That is an example of what an impression of a certain aspect may cause someone to make an opinion that may hold up or not.

ttMonster may remember that time in CLC league 2017 where our top player, a perennial 2200+ level guy, struggled vs a 1900s player who had real pro looking BH and FH strokes close to the table and could play FAST and consistent under pressure (because that is forever what she trained with 2300 level players and her practice and match strokes were that - but had a weak area or two)… our 2200+ level dude struggled, was behing late in the 5th game and pulled it out to win - barely, but a win.

I played vs the same player 2 matches later and it looked like she did not have much a chance vs me. I was rated upper 1700s California at that time... and I made it look easy. I did some things she hated - I slowed ball down and spun HEAVY, I also fast countered her opening BH for a crush kill, instead of blocking or going same to same BH. Those were the only reasons I won and looked better. If/when she figured out what to do , I would be the one with no chance... or at least less chance.

TT can go like that and maybe that is why your sample size of two gives you those observations.

A player on the side looking at both these matches might conclude that I was a better player than our strong player, where the facts show, at the time, I was prolly 5 levels lower player minimum.

Der_Echte
04-27-2020, 02:48 AM
One fact people might be overlooking about "2000 rated players" is that they might not be telling the truth about their rating. All the time in the club people ask me to train and then spout off some rating. More often than not what they say and what their max rating was, are two different numbers very far apart. I cut people some slack because even both my current rating and league rating in the database are wrong, but they are not 600-1000 points off like a few people I have run into.

Another fact to consider is if you watch someone in a tournament or in practice. I know a lot of 2200-2400 people who simply don't care at all about practice games. They use practice games to practice. Run into them in a tournament or play them for money and you probably will see something close to their real level. I learned this the hard way as one of my old practice partners was over 2400 and we would split matches in training. When we played in an official tournament he crushed me. As we shook hands after he laughed and said "Practice is for practice" and all I could to is laugh back in agreement.

I agree with a lot of your main points.

Tournament tough players find a way to be calm and win under pressure or not in a tourney. Many of these do not value winning a club match (unless it is chicken and beer kinda stuff)

Yeah, some players say whatever. I always though I had 2000 level, but I could neve prove it in tourney, despite many tourneys, so my level really wasn't 200, was it? At least not until I got that level and proved it a few times in tourney matches. Truth was, no matter what I looked or felt like, I just wasn't a 2000 level player yet, in fact, for a time, I wasn't good enough, or only barely good enough during one year to be 1800 California.

I have the Rambo mentality and I want to compete in everything I do and hate failure... yet the last couple years, as bad as my attitude in that area was, it got better and miraculously, my tourney level got better. Coincidence? Maybe, I was beginning to hang around a few better players who forced me to play better, but I always had the shots to compete, but more likely, not the right mind in the right areas well enough. When I improved there, I became a better tourney player.

The best player in our city is a lot like your 2400 friend, you might win a match vs him in league very infrequently as he tries different stuff out, but you have to look real hard in the database to see if a local defeated him in a real sanctioned tourney.

Lula
04-27-2020, 04:44 AM
Feel like Americans and or keyboard warriors are very focused on ranking points. Maybe there is a necessity to be able to compare players online. Always thought that grown men that Do not play tabletennis for a living that Have a crazy high focus on ranking points are pretty odd types

Takkyu_wa_inochi
04-27-2020, 04:45 AM
we don't have ranking points in Japan, problem solved

lightspin
04-27-2020, 05:21 AM
Feel like Americans and or keyboard warriors are very focused on ranking points. Maybe there is a necessity to be able to compare players online. Always thought that grown men that Do not play tabletennis for a living that Have a crazy high focus on ranking points are pretty odd types

You wouldn't like being in America much then. For some, the rating is the be all and end all of everything. Even when picking a coach, the vast majority of American players will pick the coach with the highest rating rather than say a good track record of helping players improve. If I were king I would do away with ratings and have divisions which would combat a whole host of problems but that will never happen in the USA. Too many people adhere to the idea "my rating is higher than yours so I am better than you in all aspects of life." Sad but true.

mart1nandersson
04-27-2020, 06:54 AM
we don't have ranking points in Japan, problem solved

So how do you seed tournaments? I thought that was the reason that you had ranking/rating systems.

zyu81
04-27-2020, 04:36 PM
It is kind of interesting how level is relative is to different places.

Swedens general level seems to be pretty high compared to most countries. When I played in England there seemed to be many more players but the general level was much lower. In Sweden, even many players who have strange styles and technique are pretty decent compared to similar players in England.

Some have estimated me to be at around 2200 USATT level and I don't feel like I'm a very good player here. There are lots of players around my level and way above. More difficult to find those players in England for example. I would guess it's similar in the US. The US and England hasn't had such a strong TT culture in the past so it makes sense.

You're either humble bragging or just play in a very elite environment. 2200 US level is well above average in any country. Just because there are more of them in say, Sweden or China, doesn't mean that moves the average - for each player of your level there are probably 10 more that are truly "average", those players just don't get noticed as much at the club levels. You'd fall far to the right of a normal curve even in China. I'd venture a guess that you are training in a very high level environment (club, league, region) or are just not aware of how many truly average and below average club players are out there.

NextLevel
04-27-2020, 04:46 PM
Feel like Americans and or keyboard warriors are very focused on ranking points. Maybe there is a necessity to be able to compare players online. Always thought that grown men that Do not play tabletennis for a living that Have a crazy high focus on ranking points are pretty odd types

I think it is quite possible that many of those crazy people, including myself, are actually decently employed people to some degree who just carry over their attitude to work or other hobbies to table tennis. I will speak for myself when I say that trying to get good enough to beat most of the players in my club was something I never thought would happen - I started playing in my club 9 years ago in July this year. But my coach back then told me that to get better I had to play tournaments. And then to measure my improvement, I had modest rating goals that I never thought I would achieve. My peak rating was 300pts higher than I reasonably thought I would ever get to.

If you are someone who got coaching as a kid and never had to really work or figure out how to improve by consciously investing your time in the sport, you won't appreciate the difference between yourself and someone who is paying money for coaching or travelling to other countries to get training or who just loves table tennis as his hobby. I have travelled for tournament vacations. I have travelled once to get coaching. But I know people who have flown to camps and people who have flown in coaches to get training.

So feel free to make fun of those people as odd types. I was once one of the most active tournament players in America, used to travel to many tournaments because I loved to play. The rating was a minor part of it, but it was part of showing that how much work I was putting into the sport was getting rewarded on some level. I suspect that many people take similar pride in rankings or winning competitions. Nothing special to table tennis and nothing specific to professionals.

zyu81
04-27-2020, 05:07 PM
I think it is quite possible that many of those crazy people, including myself, are actually decently employed people to some degree who just carry over their attitude to work or other hobbies to table tennis. I will speak for myself when I say that trying to get good enough to beat most of the players in my club was something I never thought would happen - I started playing in my club 9 years ago in July this year. But my coach back then told me that to get better I had to play tournaments. And then to measure my improvement, I had modest rating goals that I never thought I would achieve. My peak rating was 300pts higher than I reasonably thought I would ever get to.

If you are someone who got coaching as a kid and never had to really work or figure out how to improve by consciously investing your time in the sport, you won't appreciate the difference between yourself and someone who is paying money for coaching or travelling to other countries to get training or who just loves table tennis as his hobby. I have travelled for tournament vacations. I have travelled once to get coaching. But I know people who have flown to camps and people who have flown in coaches to get training.

So feel free to make fun of those people as odd types. I was once one of the most active tournament players in America, used to travel to many tournaments because I loved to play. The rating was a minor part of it, but it was part of showing that how much work I was putting into the sport was getting rewarded on some level. I suspect that many people take similar pride in rankings or winning competitions. Nothing special to table tennis and nothing specific to professionals.

I also find it strange that someone who tries to raise themselves in the ranking system they are given would be seen as anything besides for competitive. There are a lot of nuts I have met in table tennis but I'm not sure if those are it.

I guess Lula is referring to people who are obsessed with rating to the point of attaching self-worth to it and/or look down upon those below them, even if not by much. Those people do exist and are not the most savory.

Takkyu_wa_inochi
04-27-2020, 05:17 PM
So how do you seed tournaments? I thought that was the reason that you had ranking/rating systems.

in our local league they take the result of the previous year tournament to make the seeding

NextLevel
04-27-2020, 05:19 PM
I also find it strange that someone who tries to raise themselves in the ranking system they are given would be seen as anything besides for competitive. There are a lot of nuts I have met in table tennis but I'm not sure if those are it.

I guess Lula is referring to people who are obsessed with rating to the point of attaching self-worth to it and/or look down upon those below them, even if not by much. Those people do exist and are not the most savory.

But this is true for players in various ways in competitive settings. I mean, my coach tried to get me to play all levels of players, but I know many players who get bored playing worse players, including myself on some days - no one enjoys playing someone who is not a challenge in some ways.

There are people who go to school and think that their advanced education makes them a better person than someone who didn't do as much schooling. Is this attitude better with respect to education vs table tennis or is it just a broader human failing that assumes that our achievements are due to our effort and make us better people than others who didn't put in such effort (regardless of whether this is really true or not)?

For me, when I speak about ratings online, it is usually because there are things that mean something to a lower rated player and when a higher rated player is discussing them, they mean something else. If someone says Kreanga can't return serves well, it is no the same thing as me not returning serves well or my club supervisor not returning serves well. But sometimes, people feel compelled to always talk about how good or bad a player is without understanding the context. When I spoke to a national level coach about TT, I got an idea of how differently we view the game even on the small things I could understand.

Der_Echte
04-27-2020, 05:21 PM
Yup, so many USA people are SO into and SO protective of their rating it is silly.

There are players who reach 2000 and stop doing tourneys, so that they can remain above 2000 without risk.

Reaching 2000 is one thing, staying there or improving is another.

At just about any level around or below 2000, so many will do all kind of stuff for ratings points. . Some default when they realize they got in a draw with someone they know they will lose to...

Even if USA were to get rid of a numerical rating and went to 7 or 8 divisions like say Korea . USA people would want to know did and winning percentage.

In Korea, you say you are Div 2 regional, then they got an idea and it is enough.

Still, any system of proper classification can be circumvented... doing so is its own sport in Korea. They try to stack player after underclassified player for the team event, since it is a handicapped match...end result is pretty much an equal field since all are doing it, but just do it better than everyone.

You should be better at tt than the others, not just better at being sneaky.

Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk

mart1nandersson
04-27-2020, 05:27 PM
in our local league they take the result of the previous year tournament to make the seeding

But what if you go to another city and enter a tournament? Will they look at your results from your
home town then?

zyu81
04-27-2020, 05:33 PM
But this is true for players in various ways in competitive settings. I mean, my coach tried to get me to play all levels of players, but I know many players who get bored playing worse players, including myself on some days - no one enjoys playing someone who is not a challenge in some ways.

There are people who go to school and think that their advanced education makes them a better person than someone who didn't do as much schooling. Is this attitude better with respect to education vs table tennis or is it just a broader human failing that assumes that our achievements are due to our effort and make us better people than others who didn't put in such effort (regardless of whether this is really true or not)?

For me, when I speak about ratings online, it is usually because there are things that mean something to a lower rated player and when a higher rated player is discussing them, they mean something else. If someone says Kreanga can't return serves well, it is no the same thing as me not returning serves well or my club supervisor not returning serves well. But sometimes, people feel compelled to always talk about how good or bad a player is without understanding the context. When I spoke to a national level coach about TT, I got an idea of how differently we view the game even on the small things I could understand.

Agreed - what I was saying is that, if a rating system is what is given to players by a national association, it is normal to assume that some people are going to attach great value to it. To what extent they do that is where you can draw the line on if they are "odd types" - some definitely take it too far but I wouldn't consider someone who plays tournaments to try to up their rating through honest means (no selective defaulting, points hunting, etc.) to be that. I too have always just used ratings to be a very rough barometer - within certain ranges you can get an idea of what someone does and doesn't know about the game or just how they may approach understanding the game. My comment about looking down on lower rated players wasn't referring to those who don't want to play with them - that is totally their prerogative but I have seen, too often, a lot of people who really carry themselves as if they are higher beings than lower rated clubmates.

It's not that serious or accurate, but some comments here that completely disregard a rating system are confusing - sure there will be some flaws, outliers, or underrated people, but if someone is familiar with the system they can get a rough idea of what I stated above.

NextLevel
04-27-2020, 05:33 PM
Yup, so many USA people are SO into and SO protective of their rating it is silly.

There are players who reach 2000 and stop doing tourneys, so that they can remain above 2000 without risk.

Reaching 2000 is one thing, staying there or improving is another.

At just about any level around or below 2000, so many will do all kind of stuff for ratings points. . Some default when they realize they got in a draw with someone they know they will lose to...

Even if USA were to get rid of a numerical rating and went to 7 or 8 divisions like say Korea . USA people would want to know did and winning percentage.

In Korea, you say you are Div 2 regional, then they got an idea and it is enough.

Still, any system of proper classification can be circumvented... doing so is its own sport in Korea. They try to stack player after underclassified player for the team event, since it is a handicapped match...end result is pretty much an equal field since all are doing it, but just do it better than everyone.

You should be better at tt than the others, not just better at being sneaky.

Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk

People blaming the rating system for human nature. That said, no one likes to lose a lot. Ratings central had a more complicated view of improvement that was slower and more realistic. But not sure whether people would like that system either.

Takkyu_wa_inochi
04-27-2020, 05:37 PM
But what if you go to another city and enter a tournament? Will they look at your results from your
home town then?

Then chances are big you're unseeded. Unless its a very big official tournament, where some very good players have "Dan" like Judo fighters, or Shogi players.

I've seen in some open tournaments, 1st round matches of very high level on one table, and very average level on some other tables... but in the end the best players win anyway

ajtatosmano2
04-27-2020, 05:53 PM
Yup, so many USA people are SO into and SO protective of their rating it is silly.

There are players who reach 2000 and stop doing tourneys, so that they can remain above 2000 without risk.

Reaching 2000 is one thing, staying there or improving is another.

At just about any level around or below 2000, so many will do all kind of stuff for ratings points. . Some default when they realize they got in a draw with someone they know they will lose to...

Even if USA were to get rid of a numerical rating and went to 7 or 8 divisions like say Korea . USA people would want to know did and winning percentage.

In Korea, you say you are Div 2 regional, then they got an idea and it is enough.

Still, any system of proper classification can be circumvented... doing so is its own sport in Korea. They try to stack player after underclassified player for the team event, since it is a handicapped match...end result is pretty much an equal field since all are doing it, but just do it better than everyone.

You should be better at tt than the others, not just better at being sneaky.

Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk


I guess in every league you can find those people, who just want to beat the obviously lower level players, as they only enjoy winning. But most of the players and teams here do their best to win their division, because they want to enjoy playing against stronger players for a whole year and improve.

UpSideDownCarl
04-27-2020, 06:26 PM
One of the things with this discussion on rating, in this thread, rating was mentioned as a way of saying, as you get better and better, as your rating gets higher, as you get closer and closer to top 100 in your country, improving gets harder and harder.

So, I actually think that, even if interesting, a lot of the discussion on USATT rating is a bit beside the point and does not have much to do with how ratings were used in this thread. I mean, was anyone saying, "my rating is such and such, look how good I am/ or how bad you are?"

The point being made was, the higher you get, the harder it is to continue to progress and improve.

I am sure, given the nature of TT, most of us on the forum have hit plateaus or had trouble breaking out of spots where we felt stuck.

And I don't think that idea of it getting harder and harder as you get better and better really falls into the category being discussed about rating being used by players for bragging rights.

So, I would ask, why did the statement: "As you get better, it gets harder to improve" (using rating numbers from USATT), lead to statements about keyboard warriors and Kenyans pontificating on Ice Hockey? Because, in some sense, I think comments like that fall more into the category that people using USATT ratings were being accused of if you think about it.

Richie
04-27-2020, 07:03 PM
You're either humble bragging or just play in a very elite environment. 2200 US level is well above average in any country. Just because there are more of them in say, Sweden or China, doesn't mean that moves the average - for each player of your level there are probably 10 more that are truly "average", those players just don't get noticed as much at the club levels. You'd fall far to the right of a normal curve even in China. I'd venture a guess that you are training in a very high level environment (club, league, region) or are just not aware of how many truly average and below average club players are out there.

I was just supporting Martin's point with my own experiences.

I've played in England and Sweden. First in a tiny place in England where the average level was very low, then in a slightly bigger city with a better standard. Then Sweden where I got blown away by the level compared to England.

It's true that the area I play in has high level table tennis. Your level is relative to where you play. I didn't say I was average here but here there are many players who I just do not have a chance against and there are less of those in England, much much less. And I can imagine it's similar in the US.

There are 8 divisions and I play in the 5th division. It's called division 3 here, but it's after Pingisligan, superettan (Super div 1), division 1 and 2. In addition to that I've heard this division has been quite weak since I started playing here. To me that is just not extremely good but that might be because as you say, I'm influenced by the high level environment. I thought I was a better player before I moved here, moving here humbled me and made me aware of the billion things I need to improve to have a chance against the better players.

I don't want to come across as if I'm bragging, it's the opposite. I think people should be humble about their level. Which it appears many players in the US are not (correct me if I'm wrong). Martin, Lula and others I would guess have spotted the way some players talk about this magical 2000 rating in the US and Der_Echte talked about how protective people are of it. This seems so toxic and counterproductive for improvement to me. I can imagine some of these players think they're so good that they don't practice with people at a lower rating and stuff like that. But Carl has a point, I'm not sure why that was brought up in this thread.

Obviously I'm not saying one shouldn't be proud of their achievements and I'm not talking about players like NL who have worked hard as hell despite starting late and with physical restrictions. To reach that rating in the US despite those obstacles (or for other adult learners) is ridiculously impressive. But those who stop playing once they've reached that rating to brag about it is just ridiculous.

NextLevel
04-27-2020, 07:20 PM
I was just supporting Martin's point with my own experiences.

I've played in England and Sweden. First in a tiny place in England where the average level was very low, then in a slightly bigger city with a better standard. Then Sweden where I got blown away by the level compared to England.

It's true that the area I play in has high level table tennis. Your level is relative to where you play. I didn't say I was average here but here there are many players who I just do not have a chance against and there are less of those in England, much much less. And I can imagine it's similar in the US.

There are 8 divisions and I play in the 5th division. It's called division 3 here, but it's after Pingisligan, superettan (Super div 1), division 1 and 2. In addition to that I've heard this division has been quite weak since I started playing here. To me that is just not extremely good but that might be because as you say, I'm influenced by the high level environment. I thought I was a better player before I moved here, moving here humbled me and made me aware of the billion things I need to improve to have a chance against the better players.

I don't want to come across as if I'm bragging, it's the opposite. I think people should be humble about their level. Which it appears many players in the US are not (correct me if I'm wrong). Martin, Lula and others I would guess have spotted the way some players talk about this magical 2000 rating in the US and Der_Echte talked about how protective people are of it. This seems so toxic and counterproductive for improvement to me. I can imagine some of these players think they're so good that they don't practice with people at a lower rating and stuff like that. But Carl has a point, I'm not sure why that was brought up in this thread.

Obviously I'm not saying one shouldn't be proud of their achievements and I'm not talking about players like NL who have worked hard as hell despite starting late and with physical restrictions. To reach that rating in the US despite those obstacles (or for other adult learners) is ridiculously impressive. But those who stop playing once they've reached that rating to brag about it is just ridiculous.

Goes back to human nature. There are people who think Samsonov is over the hill and should retire and people who think he should continue playing as long as he can. I believe that you should play as long as you enjoy playing and that if you want to review your old record, you can go to the website or look at your old videos. But my point is that it isn't something that some people who brag about the achievement do exclusively.

Moreover, getting to a rating goal can put pressure to maintain it. Sometimes, just getting out of that cycle is a good way to preserve your sanity and health. And many of those guys don't stop playing completely - they just stop playing tournaments because they know the demands of playing tournaments cause them psychological stress and sometimes other kinds of stress. Age is also a factor as some people don't like to play worse as they get much older. But it is mostly personality as I know people for whom something like the opposite largely rings true. I also know people who play individual leagues every week because they want to but they have kept their playing levels relatively good. Most players who have gotten more injured or slower with age just play much less as a result.

As for the issue with rating levels, I think it was to measure how quickly people who started late improve. But Lula has always felt that it is okay for players at all levels to insightfully comment on players they watch, and I feel from my experience that most players who want to share commentary should give some of their playing background so that where they are coming from can be understood. Whenever I argue this, it comes off sometimes as an obsession with playing level, and maybe it is. But what I find is that there are many people who think that they play like Ma Long because they have never put themselves on camera and have never put in the hours to improve. So they think just telling people how to play better is trivial. When I used to post on the internet, I used to take advice from lots of such people. But after travelling to many tournaments and seeing some of the people giving me advice, or even seeing them post video, I learned that one should be careful taking advice from random strangers without being able to put it in context.

zyu81
04-27-2020, 07:43 PM
I was just supporting Martin's point with my own experiences.

I've played in England and Sweden. First in a tiny place in England where the average level was very low, then in a slightly bigger city with a better standard. Then Sweden where I got blown away by the level compared to England.

It's true that the area I play in has high level table tennis. Your level is relative to where you play. I didn't say I was average here but here there are many players who I just do not have a chance against and there are less of those in England, much much less. And I can imagine it's similar in the US.

There are 8 divisions and I play in the 5th division. It's called division 3 here, but it's after Pingisligan, superettan (Super div 1), division 1 and 2. In addition to that I've heard this division has been quite weak since I started playing here. To me that is just not extremely good but that might be because as you say, I'm influenced by the high level environment. I thought I was a better player before I moved here, moving here humbled me and made me aware of the billion things I need to improve to have a chance against the better players.

I don't want to come across as if I'm bragging, it's the opposite. I think people should be humble about their level. Which it appears many players in the US are not (correct me if I'm wrong). Martin, Lula and others I would guess have spotted the way some players talk about this magical 2000 rating in the US and Der_Echte talked about how protective people are of it. This seems so toxic and counterproductive for improvement to me. I can imagine some of these players think they're so good that they don't practice with people at a lower rating and stuff like that. But Carl has a point, I'm not sure why that was brought up in this thread.

Obviously I'm not saying one shouldn't be proud of their achievements and I'm not talking about players like NL who have worked hard as hell despite starting late and with physical restrictions. To reach that rating in the US despite those obstacles (or for other adult learners) is ridiculously impressive. But those who stop playing once they've reached that rating to brag about it is just ridiculous.

I didn't mean to seriously accuse you of humble bragging - I meant that more as, give yourself some credit! Your level is very good for an amateur player anywhere in the world. The main point was that, how good you think you are is definitely relative to where you play. To further demonstrate, this I once met a person who was about 1400 TTR/1800 USA level who came from an area of very few trained TT player. This guy legitimately believed that he was a "pro coach and player" and had concluded that he was about 4 levels higher based on videos he had watched, simply because he was the best player in his area and never got challenged. He was in a for a rude awakening when he got the chance to play someone truly at the level that he thought he was at.

But it seems we are on the same page with this idea. As for whether people want to get complacent with reaching a certain number is up to them, we can all give our opinions on it but it does not matter much if it doesn't relate to us.

Richie
04-27-2020, 07:52 PM
As for the issue with rating levels, I think it was to measure how quickly people who started late improve. But Lula has always felt that it is okay for players at all levels to insightfully comment on players they watch, and I feel from my experience that most players who want to share commentary should give some of their playing background so that where they are coming from can be understood. Whenever I argue this, it comes off sometimes as an obsession with playing level, and maybe it is. But what I find is that there are many people who think that they play like Ma Long because they have never put themselves on camera and have never put in the hours to improve. So they think just telling people how to play better is trivial. When I used to post on the internet, I used to take advice from lots of such people. But after travelling to many tournaments and seeing some of the people giving me advice, or even seeing them post video, I learned that one should be careful taking advice from random strangers without being able to put it in context.

I agree completely.

Players who are new and haven't been brought up in a strong TT environment are especially vulnerable to these types of comments you're referring to. Those who provide advice without context of their playing level often end up causing confusion and might even damage the other persons game. I've seen this countless times in real life too. They provide advice but they don't know what they're talking about. it was VERY frustrating back when I played in England and desperately wanted to improve and people were giving me nonsensical advice. After a while I knew it wasn't useful, but I didn't know what to do differently or what to focus on.

When you haven't seen proper table tennis it's very difficult to put the pieces together. And even if you have you could be looking at all of the wrong things. I suppose the people giving advice are often trying to help (or brag about their ability), it strikes a nerve with me either way.

Lula
04-27-2020, 08:13 PM
I did not meant that people should not improve, more of the opposite. That is why is started a group for adults because i think everyone should get an opportunity to become better. I meant more that people are thinking more about ranking points than actually developing their game and becoming better. I think the focus then are a bit on the wrong things. Of course ranking points can give you are measure but i think many times that the players that are like that just are more focused on having a high ranking than actually becoming better. I know some players here in sweden that barely play some games due to fear of loosing ranking points, and some that never try to develop their game beuase they can not take it when they loose some points while devoloping and also some that try new equipment for like two training because they feel like they are not imediately better and proably worse in the beginning and will not risk loosing.

zyu81
04-27-2020, 08:23 PM
I agree completely.

Players who are new and haven't been brought up in a strong TT environment are especially vulnerable to these types of comments you're referring to. Those who provide advice without context of their playing level often end up causing confusion and might even damage the other persons game. I've seen this countless times in real life too. They provide advice but they don't know what they're talking about. it was VERY frustrating back when I played in England and desperately wanted to improve and people were giving me nonsensical advice. After a while I knew it wasn't useful, but I didn't know what to do differently or what to focus on.

When you haven't seen proper table tennis it's very difficult to put the pieces together. And even if you have you could be looking at all of the wrong things. I suppose the people giving advice are often trying to help (or brag about their ability), it strikes a nerve with me either way.

And when people who haven't seen proper table tennis except for on YouTube start to think they've got it all figured out because they watched some videos, rather than learning through actual experiences applied to real players... you end up with the hot takes you see in the YouTube comment section, written by your local club's 1300 expert.

Der_Echte
04-27-2020, 08:25 PM
Zhu81... 1400 ttr dude thinking he gonna be DER JUGGERNAUT OF TT in Detschland ???!!!

I am still laughing tomarrow... Germany proudly got at least a few hundred thousand players better than that level...

Even puny towns in Germany under 1000 population have fielded teams entirely from villagers way above that level hh as he aa.

You got that in USA also with the 400 the basement crowd.

One dude in Army thought he was rec center champ and made a bet with me on tt... I crush his every serve and win 11-3 or 11-2 each game...and if I were to challenge a ttr 2500 dude to a match score would be similar and Der_Echte doing the buying of lunch.

So many levels in tt.

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Der_Echte
04-27-2020, 08:28 PM
Richie's Story show importance of individual discernment and by filter

Thereis no single one way of tt, but important to judge things for self.

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UpSideDownCarl
04-27-2020, 08:33 PM
Those who provide advice without context of their playing level often end up causing confusion and might even damage the other persons game.

Some of the biggest stuff like this that I have seen is also bound to cause actual physical injury.

So, yeah, when someone thinks they are spinning the ball and they are using a three year old recreational racket with rubbers that have the grip of anti-spin, and they are telling you you need to make your strokes look more like Ma Long's....it is worth knowing the first part which is not being revealed.

So, nobody will argue with the idea that internet anonymity and the dunning krueger effect often collide on TT forums to create these forum TT experts that anyone sane should run away from.

zyu81
04-27-2020, 09:02 PM
Zhu81... 1400 ttr dude thinking he gonna be DER JUGGERNAUT OF TT in Detschland ???!!!

I am still laughing tomarrow... Germany proudly got at least a few hundred thousand players better than that level...

Even puny towns in Germany under 1000 population have fielded teams entirely from villagers way above that level hh as he aa.

You got that in USA also with the 400 the basement crowd.

One dude in Army thought he was rec center champ and made a bet with me on tt... I crush his every serve and win 11-3 or 11-2 each game...and if I were to challenge a ttr 2500 dude to a match score would be similar and Der_Echte doing the buying of lunch.

So many levels in tt.

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This was not in Germany but I gave those ratings for context to readers. It also could have just been a classic case of overestimating one's own ability, that happens everywhere.

UpSideDownCarl
04-27-2020, 09:05 PM
And to tie this in, I just hope the OP of this thread, plays, is motivated, loves TT and gets to as high a level as he can. I think it is a good goal to strive and try to keep improving. But as you strive, it may be more important that you love playing rather than worrying whether you can become one of the top players of your country.

I believe, I heard this, when Waldner was at the top of his game, he complained: "I want to be able to train with people who are better than me." (Or something to that effect).

That attitude of always wanting to strive, achieve and reach for more, it ultimately does not matter how far you go in the long run, that kind of mentality will help anyone in other areas of life. So that, and the discipline to work towards improving, consistently, over time, those are skills....that will help in many other areas of life.

Der_Echte
04-27-2020, 09:17 PM
I guess in every league you can find those people, who just want to beat the obviously lower level players, as they only enjoy winning. But most of the players and teams here do their best to win their division, because they want to enjoy playing against stronger players for a whole year and improve.The deal in Korea about the competition sport of staying way underclassified is for club glory at the team event

Many players would rather have one or many team event winner's certificate for the club wall over an individual singles winner certificate.

These players can always play stronger players any time, either in club or tourney They do not need to leave the division, already there are dozens of rungers. If they face a strong player in club, a handicap is given on 2+1+1 system...

2 puts for 1st level of difference, then additional 1 point for each additional level of difference.

Div 1 gives a 4 pt handicap todiv 4 ... div 2 gives 3 pt handicsp to div 4.



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Der_Echte
04-27-2020, 09:28 PM
Feel like Americans and or keyboard warriors are very focused on ranking points. Maybe there is a necessity to be able to compare players online. Always thought that grown men that Do not play tabletennis for a living that Have a crazy high focus on ranking points are pretty odd typesYou have a realistic view... and as unbelievable as it may seem, you would become even more surprised the more you hangout at the forums and the more time you spend just listening to guys talk in usa clubs in the manner you describe... with a straight face

This is a huge reason my friend Scoobie Doo Sergey Tsos is slow to register and talk on the forums. He feels his sound advice and perspective would be treated exactly like that. He is content to lurking giggleat those type of posts when he sees them.

He laughs at the 30 blade rotating collection of the latest OFF+ or by super version of the 1000 usage level crowd.

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darucla
04-29-2020, 10:02 AM
For the OP, look at this video at around 6 minutes in. https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=_e0DNZqz6aI&feature=emb_logo

zyu81
04-29-2020, 04:41 PM
And when people who haven't seen proper table tennis except for on YouTube start to think they've got it all figured out because they watched some videos, rather than learning through actual experiences applied to real players... you end up with the hot takes you see in the YouTube comment section, written by your local club's 1300 expert.

And EmRatThich.

zyu81
04-29-2020, 04:42 PM
You have a realistic view... and as unbelievable as it may seem, you would become even more surprised the more you hangout at the forums and the more time you spend just listening to guys talk in usa clubs in the manner you describe... with a straight face

This is a huge reason my friend Scoobie Doo Sergey Tsos is slow to register and talk on the forums. He feels his sound advice and perspective would be treated exactly like that. He is content to lurking giggleat those type of posts when he sees them.

He laughs at the 30 blade rotating collection of the latest OFF+ or by super version of the 1000 usage level crowd.

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I've actually heard from a few very high level players that they will read what is written about them online. Usually for giggles. Needless to say they have a very poor opinion of most of what gets circulated in online comments, and needless to say it repels them from ever wanting to post.

Der_Echte
04-29-2020, 05:12 PM
Some pros come on forums, make some relevant and simple comments about a situation, then quickly, the goon squad robot Army of 1000 level basement experts proceed to tell the pro what is what... pro rightfully doesn't like the situation and does not ever post again.

Schlager himself had that happen on about.com before it shut down.

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UpSideDownCarl
04-29-2020, 05:23 PM
Some pros come on forums, make some relevant and simple comments about a situation, then quickly, the goon squad robot Army of 1000 level basement experts proceed to tell the pro what is what... pro rightfully doesn't like the situation and does not ever post again.

Schrader himself had that happen on about.com before it shut down.

I find it particularly entertaining to hear forum members try to explain what top pros are doing wrong and why they are not higher level than they are. :)

zyu81
04-29-2020, 05:36 PM
Especially the younger generation that is very in tune with social media and the internet. I don't want to give specific names but a good amount of millennial top players and almost all the Gen Z's sometimes or often read what is said about them online.

A good portion of people who are compelled to give their opinion on everything online also think their opinion is worth more than it is. It is also why you'll commonly see people online saying that "you don't need to be a good player to be a good coach", pointing to the few rare examples. Sure, it is not necessarily always true that you don't, but generally...you do. Kind of like people who point to Bill Gates to justify that a college degree is worthless.

Der_Echte
04-29-2020, 06:00 PM
The kollage degree thing has a few aspects. It is generally over rated. So many in usa think you get a degree then life and decent meaningful employment comes so easy...

Wrong. There is a need to be able to market self and professional qualifications. Some choose a degree that for all practical purposes us not very marketable, like say English or general Liberal Arts.

Result is that many usa college grads do not get immediately employed as they envisioned... work as store clerks or uber driver...

Still, a degree provides opportunities not available to those without one, but it isn't the end all.

The dynamics in USA are different, but it doesn't diminish Zyu's point.

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Der_Echte
04-29-2020, 06:09 PM
Then, there are some who had to get masters degree to teach kids in school... yeah, they got employment, but the money they have available to them after their work imposed required expenses, expenses to get to work and maintain, extra expenses incurred to live in proximity... taxes...

A dude working at restaurant who can walk, bike, or bus to work has more money available... and may work fewer hrs.

I still agree with Zyu's first point that many make a poor comparison to those who succeed without a degree and expect that level of success and have an attitude to expect it to come to them easy... almost like a birthright.

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mart1nandersson
04-29-2020, 06:14 PM
Especially the younger generation that is very in tune with social media and the internet. I don't want to give specific names but a good amount of millennial top players and almost all the Gen Z's sometimes or often read what is said about them online.

A good portion of people who are compelled to give their opinion on everything online also think their opinion is worth more than it is. It is also why you'll commonly see people online saying that "you don't need to be a good player to be a good coach", pointing to the few rare examples. Sure, it is not necessarily always true that you don't, but generally...you do. Kind of like people who point to Bill Gates to justify that a college degree is worthless.

I’m in an environment with a lot of players that can’t spell social media. Last night two division 1 players (both 50/60+) were intensively discussing how to do the reverse pendulum serve. I normally shy away from them as they’re 3-4 divisions above me but I decided to show them the Timo Boll Butterfly video where he shows this in great detail. They looked at it like it was like a brand new invention. Happy days. I giggled while cycling home.

zyu81
04-29-2020, 06:16 PM
Then, there are some who had to get masters degree to teach kids in school... yeah, they got employment, but the money they have available to them after their work imposed required expenses, expenses to get to work and maintain, extra expenses incurred to live in proximity... taxes...

A dude working at restaurant who can walk, bike, or bus to work has more money available... and may work fewer hrs.

I still agree with Zyu's first point that many make a poor comparison to those who succeed without a degree and expect that level of success and have an attitude to expect it to come to them easy... almost like a birthright.

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Right, there is no end all be all rule on either side of the spectrum, but just because one does not NEED to have a certain qualification to be considered some level of successful, certainly does not mean that anyone who DOESN'T have that qualification is in fact that level of success that they claim. And that is what I see implied by too many. For every, say Dirk Wagner, who was not an amazing player but is an amazing coach...there are a million people who are not amazing players nor amazing coaches but think they are. :p

Der_Echte
04-29-2020, 06:21 PM
I would tend to agree. There are traits and skills, plus understanding, ability to communicate, ability to lead that are required to function at a very high level as a coach of elite athletes.

These are entirely different skills than the individual elite athlete has ... so there is the argument that being a former elite athlete is not required.

Yet, it is difficult to get the required level of knowledge without having been an elite athlete

Further, every elite athlete does not automatically become a great or even good coach of elites... the skills in para 1 apply and not all athletes have them.

In before the goon squad qrf (Quick Reaction Force)

Der_Echte does not have the understanding of elite level to nor likely ever will. I just understand fundamental and can relate it to adults.

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zyu81
04-29-2020, 06:36 PM
I would tend to agree. There are traits and skills, plus understanding, ability to communicate, ability to lead that are required to function at a very high level as a coach of elite athletes.

These are entirely different skills than the individual elite athlete has ... so there is the argument that being a former elite athlete is not required.

Yet, it is difficult to get the required level of knowledge without having been an elite athlete

Further, every elite athlete does not automatically become a great or even good coach of elites... the skills in para 1 apply and not all athletes have them.

In before the goon squad qrf (Quick Reaction Force)


Not even necessarily elite. But there is some baseline, what that baseline is, many may disagree upon. But yes, having the necessary understanding of the game would be very difficult if said person was not able to experience or achieve it themselves to some acceptable degree.



Further, every elite athlete does not automatically become a great or even good coach of elites... the skills in para 1 apply and not all athletes have them.



Yup. Definitely not. The natural talents especially, since it is hard to teach what someone just subconsciously gets.

Lula
04-29-2020, 08:04 PM
I still think it is very possible to be a good coach and not be able to play very good yourself. Think there is also the other way that very good players Do not need to be good coaches. That is my experience. Feel like some good players are not interested in technique and how to Do the strokes and know even less about how to learn other players This. So coaching is about really knowing about the sport and alot of other aspects around it. Also think that since it is like this the players that end their own playing career to pursue coaching careers have great possibilites to become very good at it.

piligrim
04-29-2020, 08:13 PM
I still think it is very possible to be a good coach and not be able to play very good yourself. Think there is also the other way that very good players Do not need to be good coaches. That is my experience. Feel like some good players are not interested in technique and how to Do the strokes and know even less about how to learn other players This. So coaching is about really knowing about the sport and alot of other aspects around it. Also think that since it is like this the players that end their own playing career to pursue coaching careers have great possibilites to become very good at it.


It depend what we consider very good player? National team player? Top 300? Top 100?

ejprinz
04-29-2020, 10:44 PM
I was in a similar situation when I was a teen, I started at around 13 and practiced TT 2-3 times per week 3 hours plus competitions on the weekends. In retrospect, I did exactly the right thing which was to fully focus on my STEM education and play table tennis for fun & to keep myself sharp. My physics degree led to engineering and a good career in the chip industry, and for the last year I played about 4 hours/day for fun in the company gym 6 days/week (we have a robot & a coach) and I attended the US Open 2019. Again, to keep myself sharp in my job. There are lots of software jobs where the companies have TT tables at the workplace, somehow they are synergistic.
So fully focusing on TT in the teens IMHO *and sacrifice school* is a big mistake since the demand for so-so TT players and coaches is low, but the demand for artificial intelligence, machine learning, data science, electrical engineering is big and leads to a lifetime career. Also not too many people actually want to watch table tennis matches life, they prefer to play themselves.
My $0.05 ...

burhanayan
04-30-2020, 08:15 AM
I aggre with ejprinz. Many Turkish Super League players have second job even if they started when they were really young. Coaching, running a table tennis shop etc. I think there are maximum 10-20 player who can afford barely their expenses only by playin tt. This is the threshold for being pro, I think. Maybe the ones who attend international championships earn more.

To be the best of anything you should;
- work extremely smart,
- have the best sources(best coaching, best training partners, attending competitions that improves you best),
- improve mentality(mostly comes with experience),
- maintain that perseverance at least for 10 years.

I started table tennis when I was 15 at first year of high school. After three years of training(regular table tennis drills, school teams etc), I was eliminated a match before quarter finals. So I was in around top 12 in my city(3 Mill Population) at my age. I attended to a club team with full of kids who played at national championship. Obviously, they matched me with 10 year old kids. Probably I was at same level with those kids. I don't know but at that time I felt humiliated. Additionally, when I was there, I learned that a national team player(U18) was earning twice as much minimum wage. 1/5 comes from club, 4/5 for being in national team. It was my last year at high school, and there was student selection exam for college) I thought I can earn easily much more by just graduating from college and I quit. Now I regret I stopped playing :)

If you still want to know what needs to be done to be the best, you can watch The Last Dance documentary. (No, I didn't get money from Netflix haha).

Whatever you do, just don't stop playing table tennis :)

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ajtatosmano2
05-02-2020, 06:56 PM
The deal in Korea about the competition sport of staying way underclassified is for club glory at the team event

Many players would rather have one or many team event winner's certificate for the club wall over an individual singles winner certificate.

These players can always play stronger players any time, either in club or tourney They do not need to leave the division, already there are dozens of rungers. If they face a strong player in club, a handicap is given on 2+1+1 system...

2 puts for 1st level of difference, then additional 1 point for each additional level of difference.

Div 1 gives a 4 pt handicap todiv 4 ... div 2 gives 3 pt handicsp to div 4.



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That's interesting. Seems in Korea the divisions represent smaller gaps in skill. Here between Div1 and Div4 7 points is a realistic handicap, I think. That would also explain why it's more important to go up in divisions. Many players (and teams) stated that other than going up or down the results doesn't bear further meaning.(They were commenting on how to deal with the current situation). And it might be a cultural thing too.

Der_Echte
05-02-2020, 08:54 PM
That's interesting. Seems in Korea the divisions represent smaller gaps in skill. Here between Div1 and Div4 7 points is a realistic handicap, I think. That would also explain why it's more important to go up in divisions. Many players (and teams) stated that other than going up or down the results doesn't bear further meaning.(They were commenting on how to deal with the current situation). And it might be a cultural thing too.

Korea is still a lot like that. There is a "Hope" division, which is usually beginning players not good enough o be in Div 5 city (lowest division). Clubs use their own div system with a lot of the Hope div players rated at Div 6 or Div 7... so a Div 1 player gives up a 7 pt handicap !! OUCH.

Hope div players are never on a team event.

Even a weak Div 5 player vs a solid div 1 player with a 7 pt handicap is not gunna win unless they get real lucky.

Der_Echte
05-02-2020, 08:59 PM
So, the middle of the pack of divisions in Korea are pretty fairly classified, but the top end of EVERY division is so stacked you need to be 3 divisions under-classified and have a REAL GOOD DAY to have any chance to compete to make it to even the semis.

Myself, I always wanted to compete in the higher divisions and actually qualify to do so, either by winning the singles championship, of by the tourney director and enemy coaches command directing I compete in a higher division. I NEVER in a city or national tourney made it past the semis (only did that once) yet I kept getting moved up as I improved, so I was pretty much the whole time classified middle of the pack of whatever division I played in, but would never be able to compete to win a championship in singles - the deck is simply too stacked.

davizoosk
05-02-2020, 09:06 PM
I aggre with ejprinz. Many Turkish Super League players have second job even if they started when they were really young. Coaching, running a table tennis shop etc. I think there are maximum 10-20 player who can afford barely their expenses only by playin tt. This is the threshold for being pro, I think. Maybe the ones who attend international championships earn more.

To be the best of anything you should;
- work extremely smart,
- have the best sources(best coaching, best training partners, attending competitions that improves you best),
- improve mentality(mostly comes with experience),
- maintain that perseverance at least for 10 years.

I started table tennis when I was 15 at first year of high school. After three years of training(regular table tennis drills, school teams etc), I was eliminated a match before quarter finals. So I was in around top 12 in my city(3 Mill Population) at my age. I attended to a club team with full of kids who played at national championship. Obviously, they matched me with 10 year old kids. Probably I was at same level with those kids. I don't know but at that time I felt humiliated. Additionally, when I was there, I learned that a national team player(U18) was earning twice as much minimum wage. 1/5 comes from club, 4/5 for being in national team. It was my last year at high school, and there was student selection exam for college) I thought I can earn easily much more by just graduating from college and I quit. Now I regret I stopped playing :)

If you still want to know what needs to be done to be the best, you can watch The Last Dance documentary. (No, I didn't get money from Netflix haha).

Whatever you do, just don't stop playing table tennis :)

CLT-L09 cihazımdan Tapatalk kullanılarak gönderildi





I'll try to watch, I really liked your story.
The system here works like this:
1st and 2nd place at City School Games, go to
State School Games 1 and 2 nd place qualifies for the National School Games.
About college, schools are not interested in sports in my city, here we have a system in which, each year of high school, you have a test called PAS, each year you accumulate an amount of points for the correct answers of the test . At the end of high school, these points will be used for a course at a public college or a scholarship at a private college. In other words, all schools focus on that. Mine does not participate in the city games, I will have to focus simply on training and playing with the club members, next year yes, I will change a school and try to reach the national school games, stand out there and try to gain visibility and who knows train at a better national club or be selected for a club tryouts. I can still join the federation of the state and play the state championship, 1st and 2nd place go to the national stages, usually who stands out there is called for the selection of the national team that happens sometimes, our Brazilian team has "few "members since they only choose the best of the best there. who knows ... I won't stop playing table tennis, my status says why.

davizoosk
05-02-2020, 09:33 PM
Brazilian national system, we have 15 divisions by points, organized in letters, from O to A. Since O is the lowest up to 250 points, the highest is A above 2300 points, a guy from the club I will train is in A with 2346 points
: 0.
I'll show you how it looks on the site.
TMB Platinum - National Cup: . It is the main national competition, held once a year, at the end of the season. Organized by CBTM.


TMB Platinum - Brasil Cup: . It is the set of national competitions, played three times a year. Organized by CBTM.


TMB Challenge Plus (Federation Cup): . These are the national competitions organized by the State Federations and approved by the CBTM. It has a higher score.


TMB Challenge (Federation Cup): . These are the national competitions organized by the State Federations and approved by the CBTM.


State TMB (State Championship Stages): these are the State Championship stages, organized by each of the State Federations.


TMB Regional (Stages of the Official Regional Leagues): are the stages of competitions of the Regional Leagues, organized by each Regional League and certified by the respective State Federation.

and you accumulate points for each competition result, that's what I think

21342

kanewillimson
05-05-2020, 02:34 PM
This kind of passion is needed my friend you will succeed in future my advice to you you learn some programming language