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View Full Version : Innerforce Layer ALC blade compared with ZLF version



Basmundo
04-27-2020, 08:24 AM
Hello Dan. I am trying to decide on a new blade which represents a significant investment for me. I am considering the InnerforceLayer ALC which you changed to recently. My dilemma is whether to try the ZLFversion but I am reading conflicting comparisons for speed and control and can’t see why I would go for the ZLF. Presumably you tried the ZLF but decided on the ALC. I would appreciate it if you could give me your comparisons between the two blades and why you settled on the ALC.
Thanks

Basmundo
04-29-2020, 03:19 PM
I would also be interested in the difference between the Innerforce Layer ALC and the ALC.S version in respect of speed and cotrol please.

Konrad Bak
04-29-2020, 03:39 PM
I had chance to play with Old
ZLF, ZLF layer, layer ZLC, layer ALC, layer ALC s, Liu shiwen ZLF, Ai fukuhara ZLF.
I dont know what yall want to know.
I really liked layer alc and layer zlf
If you like hard rubbers l alc is better and faster
Layer zlf is better for soft rubbers and its slower.
I always work on setup
Rubbers weight =/= sponge hardness

Basmundo
04-29-2020, 04:06 PM
I had chance to play with Old
ZLF, ZLF layer, layer ZLC, layer ALC, layer ALC s, Liu shiwen ZLF, Ai fukuhara ZLF.
I dont know what yall want to know.
I really liked layer alc and layer zlf
If you like hard rubbers l alc is better and faster
Layer zlf is better for soft rubbers and its slower.
I always work on setup
Rubbers weight =/= sponge hardness

Thank you Konrad. I was wondering what the advantage of the ZLF was and whether to spend the extra money especially when the stats seem almost identical. As far as I can see the ZLF gives a theoretical larger sweet spot but is the same other than that.
I am thinking of trying the TSP 6.5mm balsa off blade with Dignics 09C. Super control to give great confidence and good speed when the blade is engaged fully to compensate for the rubber being a bit on the slow side. Also the D09C is quite heavy and the lighter balsa blade would offset that.

balazs1234
04-30-2020, 02:12 PM
Hi Konrad,

Have you felt any noticeable difference between the LSW, Fukuhara and IF Layer ZLF?
If so, what was that?

Thanks, Balazs

UpSideDownCarl
04-30-2020, 03:19 PM
Basmundo, you are better off seeing if you can find someone with the blades you are interested in and trying them. Different people have different feel in their hand and the questions you are asking will be felt differently by different people.

What is your current setup? Why do you want to change?

You said something about the purchase being a significant investment for you. If these blades are hard to afford, why would you choose some of the most expensive blades on the market. There are blades that are similar but made by companies that are not quite as expensive. The performance is similar. And the blades cost 1/3 the price. Why not try finding blades that you can afford?

Also, you are asking people to help you with information about a blade purchase. But we don't know how you play, how long you have played, your general skill level. That information would be useful as well.

Basmundo
05-01-2020, 08:25 AM
Basmundo, you are better off seeing if you can find someone with the blades you are interested in and trying them. Different people have different feel in their hand and the questions you are asking will be felt differently by different people.

What is your current setup? Why do you want to change?

You said something about the purchase being a significant investment for you. If these blades are hard to afford, why would you choose some of the most expensive blades on the market. There are blades that are similar but made by companies that are not quite as expensive. The performance is similar. And the blades cost 1/3 the price. Why not try finding blades that you can afford?

Also, you are asking people to help you with information about a blade purchase. But we don't know how you play, how long you have played, your general skill level. That information would be useful as well.

Thank you Carl. Your constructive comments are very much appreciated. I returned to the game about 18 months ago after a considerable break. I have fairly quickly returned to what I would suggest is an intermediate level and have used a progression of setups as follows:-
1. Tibhar Drinkhall Allround Classic blade with Joola Mambo-H on BH and Joola Energy X-tra on FH.
2. Avalox P500 blade with Victas VS>402 Limber on BH and Joola Energy X-tra on FH.
3. Joola Aruna Off blade with Tibhar Evolution FX-S on BH and Tibhar Evolution EL-S on FH.
4. TSP Balsa 6.5mm OFF blade with Joola Rhyzer 43 on BH and Joola Rhyzer Pro 45 on FH. (Current).


Due to nursing a sick relative since September 2019, and the current lockdown situation, I have had a lot of time to read around the subject and do probably get caught up in some of the advertising claims.

My game is offensive and consists simply of gaining the opportunity to use my BH loop or FH loop and topspin drive to take control of the rally. My game is fairly effective but I am, in particular looking for an improvement in achieving open-ups more quickly using BH and FH flicks/banana/Chiquita etc.

I am particularly drawn to the claimed characteristics of the new Dignics 09C rubber which appears to have everything that I am looking for in that it has very high levels of spin and control and is not quite as fast as T05. I particularly like the idea of the extra lift possible from the tacky rubber for BH banana flicks from mid-table together with the high level of control that is possible with this rubber and its high level of spin.

While investing so much in rubbers I felt that I needed to put the rubbers on what appears to be an ideal blade for me: The Butterfly Innerforce Later ALC with is slightly dumbed down speed compared with other ALC blades and with the subsequent improved control. How can I loose with such a setup! I had thought of using the rubbers on the TSP Balsa 6.5mm OFF blade. I had chosen this previously due to, what appeared to be, an ideal balance between speed and control. They are claimed to have great control for a light touch and high speed when the blade is engaged for strong hits. However the Dignics 09C rubber is renowned for being particularly heavy and I wondered if the overall setup could be imbalanced as a result. Hence my other thread on the Forum regarding bat balance!

Although a better blade and rubbers doesn't make you a better player, assuming that the setup is suitable for your game and skill level, having confidence in your setup must be important in match play.

Thank you once again for taking the time out to contribute what is of great value to me.

Konrad Bak
05-02-2020, 03:29 PM
sorry I don't recommend buying Butterfly equipment

UpSideDownCarl
05-02-2020, 05:56 PM
One thing I would say is, you should question why, in 18 months you have had 4 setups. That is an average of a new setup every 4.5 months.

In looking, my guess is the second setup could have been an improvement. The third setup may have been better in some ways and worse for you in others. But the blade with a 6.5mm Balsa Core.....this tells me something....and some of what it tells me is, you probably would be better off putting whatever rubbers you want on the Avalox P500 blade and call it a day. Or getting a Xiom Offensive S, or a Nittaku Acoustic, or an OSP Virtuoso Off- or Plus, Primorac Off-, Korbel, Stratus Power Wood.....put whatever rubbers you want on something like that.

Any chance you can show footage of your play. That might change my mind. That is very possible since it sounds like you used to play, stopped, and started again 18 months ago. But based on how you described how you play, I listed blades that would probably make more sense for you and most of them will cost much less than what you are looking at.

Konrad Bak
05-02-2020, 07:17 PM
I had the same idea, when I saw your 4 equipments but my english is not perfect so I cant say with the same easy words.
P500 + Rasanter R/V 47/48/50/53 or Rhyzer 45/48/50, Fastarc G1/P1, TSP Ventus Speed/ SUPER / Rakza 7/9/10 Donic Bluestorm Z1/Z2/Z1Turbo, Gewo Nexxus EL/XT 48/50/53, Xiom Vega Pro/X/Tour, Xiom Omega V PRO/TOUR/ASIA, Omega VII TOUR/ASIA, Evolution MXP/ MXS/MXK, MXP50, Victas V15 Limber/Stiff/Extra, Victas VS 402 Double Extra, DHS Goldarc 8 47.5/50, Butterfly Tenergy 05/80/64+ fx and H version
Dignics/Dynaryz, Stiga Mantra M/H, Stiga DNA pro M/H
and everything will be OK.

Basmundo
05-02-2020, 10:19 PM
One thing I would say is, you should question why, in 18 months you have had 4 setups. That is an average of a new setup every 4.5 months.

In looking, my guess is the second setup could have been an improvement. The third setup may have been better in some ways and worse for you in others. But the blade with a 6.5mm Balsa Core.....this tells me something....and some of what it tells me is, you probably would be better off putting whatever rubbers you want on the Avalox P500 blade and call it a day. Or getting a Xiom Offensive S, or a Nittaku Acoustic, or an OSP Virtuoso Off- or Plus, Primorac Off-, Korbel, Stratus Power Wood.....put whatever rubbers you want on something like that.

Any chance you can show footage of your play. That might change my mind. That is very possible since it sounds like you used to play, stopped, and started again 18 months ago. But based on how you described how you play, I listed blades that would probably make more sense for you and most of them will cost much less than what you are looking at.

Thank you Carl
The reason for the frequent change of setup was I think because I started with a setup that was recommended and which I felt was I too slow. I quickly improved and gradually increased the responsiveness of the setups. I was probably too overcautious having had it impressed upon me that a too advanced setup would hinder the development of my game. As the setups have increased in speed I have found that I have been able to adjust to them fairly quickly and each one has helped me improve my performance.
I also was housebound for a lot of the time, even before Covid, due to nursing my wife, and I did spend a lot of time occupying myself by looking at the various stats for blades and rubbers and probably bought excessively for a bit of retail therapy.
It is interesting that you seem to favour the P500 blade over all others and the converse seems to be true of the TSP balsa blade, aying that it tells you something? Your thoughts on the reason for the blade recommendations would be of value to me. Meanwhile I will look at those listed and compare their stats on Revspin to try and understand your recommendations.

Do you have any thoughts on rubbers, particularly my feeling that the new Dignics 09C would appear ideal for my game which relies heavily on spin.

Unfortunately I do not have any footage of me playing.

Thanks again Carl. Keep safe.

Basmundo
05-02-2020, 10:24 PM
I had the same idea, when I saw your 4 equipments but my english is not perfect so I cant say with the same easy words.
P500 + Rasanter R/V 47/48/50/53 or Rhyzer 45/48/50, Fastarc G1/P1, TSP Ventus Speed/ SUPER / Rakza 7/9/10 Donic Bluestorm Z1/Z2/Z1Turbo, Gewo Nexxus EL/XT 48/50/53, Xiom Vega Pro/X/Tour, Xiom Omega V PRO/TOUR/ASIA, Omega VII TOUR/ASIA, Evolution MXP/ MXS/MXK, MXP50, Victas V15 Limber/Stiff/Extra, Victas VS 402 Double Extra, DHS Goldarc 8 47.5/50, Butterfly Tenergy 05/80/64+ fx and H version
Dignics/Dynaryz, Stiga Mantra M/H, Stiga DNA pro M/H
and everything will be OK.

Thank you Konrad for joining the discussion with Carl.
You also seem to favour the P500 blade with an array of various rubber recommendations. Is it possible for you to narrow down the recommendation to what might be best, understanding that you have not seen me play. What are your thoughts on Dignics 09C which appears ideal for spin coupled with control?
I will try and evaluate the various rubbers on your list to see what the common thread is with them.

Konrad Bak
05-02-2020, 11:25 PM
Bro. It cost too much and There is no value in this rubber.
Vs 402 double extra is semi tacky rubber like 09c
The sponge wont be as good as Dignics 09 c
But it cost 1/3
You propably want to impress people with new new rubber.
This is your money and everybody will be more impressive when you will be better player and they wont be jealous about your richness or dumbness.
Practice more.

Konrad Bak
05-02-2020, 11:27 PM
Because guys will beat you with 20$ paddle

UpSideDownCarl
05-03-2020, 12:39 AM
It is interesting that you seem to favour the P500 blade over all others and the converse seems to be true of the TSP balsa blade, aying that it tells you something?

P500 is a looping blade. You said the main part of your game is trying to loop with FH and BH. P500 is thin and flexible but still not slow. If your mechanics are good, you can make very powerful, very spinny shots with a P500. Kong Linghui won the World Championships with the P500 before Butterfly signed him and made a blade that was an imitation of the P500 and is also an excellent blade. Too bad Butterfly no longer makes their original Kong Linghui blade. It was a really nice blade.

But, of the other blades I mentioned--Acoustic, Virtuoso Plus, Korbel, Stratus Power Wood--those are still looping blades but they are a little faster than the P500. Any of those wood be good as well.

What characteristics do I say make them looping blades. They are relatively thin. All are all thinner than just the core of the TSP Balsa 6.5 blade. So they have more flex. They are all wood so they will give you more ball feel, help you hold the ball on the blade face longer, help you feel the distortion of the topsheet when you grab the ball, and therefore they will help you generate more spin. And they are all fast enough. Anyone with solid technique whose legs, hips and core are timed well to the whip of their stroke will be able to make evil loops with any of those blades.

The Balsa 6.5 is a blade that is best suited to slapping the hell out of the ball. It is thick, stiff (the 6.5mm Balsa Core ensures that). The fiberglass also ensures that it is stiff. This makes it so the ball rebounds very fast off the blade face which makes it hard to hold the ball on the blade face. If you played a lot of flat hits, slap kills, smashes or played with Short Pips, the Balsa 6.5 would be ideal. That you are not feeling that you are using a blade that is great for direct contact but makes it notably harder to generate more spin in loop/counterloop rallies tells me, either you are soooooo good that you should not be asking anyone for equipment advice and should be a in the top 50 in UK. Or, that you cannot tell that the equipment you are using is not suited to the style you at least described as what you play.

Either way, a blade that is good for looping would be quite okay for the crazy advanced player or the player who is developing skillz.

By the way, it is very common for mid-level (intermediate level) players to use equipment that is too fast for them and hinders their progress without knowing and they get used to that and then something that is actually a suitable speed feels too slow because the fast blade made it so they did not have to learn how to put the power of their body behind their shots. This is very common.

As far as recommending rubbers....I am of the opinion that, without seeing you play, any offensive rubber from any company should be fine. The list Konrad Bak left is good. Close your eyes and choose. They all will be fine. Dignics 09C? If you want to spend the money, go for it.

Have you ever played with boosted H3? Regular H3 Boosted may play sort of similar to D09C if it is the rubber I think you mean. I also think it would be worth you trying Dignics 09C before buying it. You should see how these rubbers (both D09C and boosted H3) play on someone else's setup before you spend all that money on D09C or any other rubber. It might be amazing. But it is a very specialized rubber.


I would really say that about almost any blade or rubber. If you can get club mates to let you try their equipment for a few hits for several months, you will know better things that feel good to you. Unfortunately, as stated above, sometimes what feels best to someone is not exactly what will be best for them. :) But at least you are making choices based on having felt the equipment rather than on someone writing something on the internet.

Reading reviews and descriptions of equipment on line can get you caught up in buying a lot of TT equipment you did not need. It could also get you thinking something about equipment that is not very accurate. Some of the variables from the people who write equipment reviews on line:

1) You don't know the level of the player, and frankly, a player who is not very high level may not be able to feel half of what a piece of equipment gives them or doesn't.
2) It is hard to tell if the person writing the review has had experience with lots of other equipment or if they have not.
3) What one person feels is usually nothing close to what you will feel from the same equipment because everyone's senses are different.

Online reviews are great for the TT companies for getting people to think they need things they don't. So, in one sense, if you can afford it, that is fine. But in another sense, that is a problem because it means people end up with equipment that does not fit their needs without the person being able to tell that what they have is not suited to their needs.

Without seeing footage of you playing, I really can't say much. I really could be totally right or totally wrong in how I have interpreted what you presented. But the base level of any of those looping blades I mentioned, including the slightly slower ones from the earlier post, with a mid soft/mid hard offensive rubber that is middle of the road, is all that most amateurs need. And I know some high level pros who still use just that. So it can't be that you are too good to use equipment that is designed for looping. :)

Konrad Bak
05-03-2020, 12:55 AM
https://shop.butterflyonline.com/kong-linghui-fl-blade-7607
^
Kong Linghui ALC is not available

UpSideDownCarl
05-03-2020, 01:01 AM
https://shop.butterflyonline.com/kong-linghui-fl-blade-7607
^
Kong Linghui ALC is not available

The original Kong Linghui blade was all wood. It was: Koto-Spruce-Ayous-Spruce-Koto like the P500. No need for any other Kong Linghui blade. But, I don't think Butterfly makes that original KL blade anymore. But I could be wrong.

Konrad Bak
05-03-2020, 04:08 AM
There is three version of Kong linghui blade.
I show you all wood 5,4 mm with composition : koto Spruce ayous which is the same blade as P500 and Butterfly still produce them or sell them for different countries.

You can find Euro version with yellow anigre as top ply
And special version with hinoki and Alc.

UpSideDownCarl
05-03-2020, 04:30 AM
There is three version of Kong linghui blade.
I show you all wood 5,4 mm with composition : koto Spruce ayous which is the same blade as P500 and Butterfly still produce them or sell them for different countries.

You can find Euro version with yellow anigre as top ply
And special version with hinoki and Alc.

Okay. Maybe that is the original one.

Konrad Bak
05-03-2020, 04:03 PM
it is still good blade, for me Avalox looks very fresh because they have tradition and they did blades for Chinese players so this is not company from nowhere. People always see butterfly but for me there is big big rivarly on the market.
you can find xiom blades AZX and AZXi, Calderano SAL, HAL,
Joola premium products like Zalebro, Nobilis, Energon and Vyzaryz line.
New Tibhar products like Shang Kun Hybrid AC and ZC, Cedric Nuytinck ZC and Kinetic Speed, Fortino Pro

so maybe people should find new heroes than looks for old overpriced Butterfly blades.

mart1nandersson
05-03-2020, 07:04 PM
Bro. It cost too much and There is no value in this rubber.
Vs 402 double extra is semi tacky rubber like 09c
The sponge wont be as good as Dignics 09 c
But it cost 1/3
You propably want to impress people with new new rubber.
This is your money and everybody will be more impressive when you will be better player and they wont be jealous about your richness or dumbness.
Practice more.

A little bit off topic but I can’t resist. VS402 is a specialty rubber designed for chopping (but has some limited offensive capabilities). It’s very very different to D09. I’ve played quite a bit with both with VS401/402 but only for a few minutes with D09C.

Konrad Bak
05-03-2020, 07:23 PM
Of course you cant compare the sponges because I think Butterfly has something special with their quality of work.
But you can see spin ability and
if you match with soft off-blade, you propably dont need fancy 09 .

mart1nandersson
05-03-2020, 09:08 PM
They’re completely different rubbers. It’s not an ESN hybrid type rubber like Tibhar K1/2 or Joola Golden Tango. It’s a chopping rubber that will dampen the ball but will still allow you to do SOME offensive strokes. Not my cup of tea but a guy I know that plays 1st division and plays classic defense can’t stop praising it. Anyone looking for an alternative to D09C should not be looking as the VS series from Victas.

Basmundo
05-03-2020, 10:32 PM
Hello Carl and Konrad
Thank you once again. I am learning a lot from you guys and wish I had made contact with you earlier. I appreciate your patience in helping me on this subject.
I have listed the blades suggested by Carl, together with their statistics as quoted on the websites of Revspin and Stoni Tenis. These are the only reference points that I know about that appear to be independent although they are not necessarily without some distortion as they are all based on personal opinion. I will do the same thing with Konrad’s list of rubbers to aid in making a comparison.
One thing that I have omitted to tell you is that I am in my early seventies although I am quite fit for my age and particularly fast. However I have to be realistic and suggest that I am not going to be as strong as I was or as other younger men which may alter your opinion of the type of blade that you recommend. Maybe you will feel that a slightly faster blade may assist me but from the comments I have received from opposition and from a few coaching sessions, I appear to generate quite a lot of spin and a pretty fast loop drive. As I said in an earlier post, I am looking to maintain those aspects of my game while improving my ability to create ‘open ups’ quickly using BH and FH flicks - banana/Chiquita etc.
I have attached the list of blades suggested by Carl and the consistency appears to be reasonable but not excessive speed with good control and decent dwell time for looping because of the lower stiffness and hardness. I have listed my main contending blades at the top in red followed by my initial short list of 5 blades in blue and then followed by Carl’s list in black. I have added the Kong Linghui blade at the bottom for comparison.
It is interesting that many of these blades compare closely to the Avalox P500 as suggested but with some appearing possibly to be slightly superior according to your recommendations such as: Avalox J-Tech, Butterfly Innerforce Layer ALC, Butterfly Innerforce Layer ZLF, OSP Virtuoso Off-. Assuming that you agree with the stats quoted by the two websites, is it possible for you to shortlist your recommendation or are they all much of a muchness apart from price?
I am certainly not looking to impress anyone with my equipment; just the quality of my game. I want to finalise a setup ready for the new season when lockdown is over and train hard to improve to my full potential.
I will complete the list of Konrad’s rubber suggestions next but I should add that I was intending to buy the setup complete as I have no experience with gluing rubbers or boosting them. However I am fairly practical and sure I could soon learn.
Keep well and safe guys.

Basmundo
05-03-2020, 10:33 PM
21351

UpSideDownCarl
05-03-2020, 11:13 PM
I would just ignore those numbers. And I definitely would not waste the time to make the list with the rubbers. If I just listed a bunch of numbers between 80-100 randomly for each blade, they would be more accurate than the speed numbers on most of those.

Here, I will give you an example: Korbel and Stratus Power Wood are almost the same. The plies are the same. The thickness is very close. Head size is almost the same. I have had had Korbels in my hand that were faster than Power Woods and vice versa. The difference in speed listed seems arbitrary. Another example, the Virtuoso Plus that I use is leagues faster than the Offensive Ss that I have tried and yet they are listed as statistically almost the same.

Another ridiculous idea: the Balsa 6.5 has a speed of 9.5 and control 9.5. In general speed and control are inversely correlated and a Balsa blade in general is very fast but not good for feeling or control. So the idea that the fastest blade on the list, which is a Balsa Fiberglass blade also is listed as being the easiest to control is just silly.

So, from my perspective, listing the numbers for the rubbers would be a mistake because all of those numbers are a waste of time. Not just a waste of time. But they are confusing and give people absolutely the wrong idea about different pieces of equipment. I would honestly just never look at them again if I was you. They are meant to make you want to buy products.

However, if you are of the age you have stated, then, a blade slightly faster to help you generate some extra speed would be fine. How about the Fang Bo 2 blade. It is inner carbon. It is Limba top ply. It costs less. And it will be a good blade. It will be fast but good for generating spin. So it will help you on the speed side and still help you generate more spin.

BTW: if you are in your 70s, I highly doubt the D09C will be useful to you. The idea with the HARD rubbers, and particularly this one is, the speed capability comes out when you have deep impact with a lot of force behind your contact while brushing (not direct contact). When you do that, that kind of rubber excels. When your contact is not beastly hard, you get less from the rubber.

So, if you had amazing footwork, were always in a good position to take your shot, and could really put your whole body into your shots, like, the level of the guys in Dan's video, that level, then D09C would be a good choice.

But, probably, based on what you are describing, T05 or MXP would really be rubbers that would be better suited to your needs, probably T05 more so than MXP because MXP is a little harder. T05 more spin; MXP more speed. :)

Hopefully this is helpful.

And again, if I saw footage of you playing, I could probably say more specifically what would be best for you. But I do have to be honest with you, I doubt you need a new setup. I bet you could just use the Aruna blade and buy new rubbers and have someone help you glue them on. Once you have done it once or twice, it is pretty easy to do.

And it is a bit crazy to think that every time you get new rubbers you need to also get a new blade because you don't know how to do something that, really, anyone can do.

Kaizoku
05-04-2020, 12:09 AM
Just swiping through. You've tried an all+, off and off+ blade.. (with good speed-control ratio ratings) but you still think you don't have found the optimal blade?
Firstly, I do agree on the note that TSP Balsa does not seem ideal, being a stiff 'smacking' type blade..
for your openings, Both Aruna off and P5000 should be able to do that better.
Secondly, on a budget... Butterfly is the last place I would go to, they are overpriced.. I mean you can argue about their quality all day, but, the bottom line is that the price raise is not worth the "edge" that you may or may not get. Unless you're rich or a sponsored pro player. The butterfly blades that do get cloned by Chinese brands, are normally 1/4th sometimes 1/5th of the price. and European clones are normally half the price or more, so butterfly is really pushing their branding past a reasonable edge impo.

Anyway back to the blades, Aruna Off is a Hinoki Koto Carbon Kiri Carbon Koto Hinoki
While P5000, is Koto-Spruce as earlier mentioned.
P5000, and most other koto top ply blades, are more ideal for counter-tempo games.
Joola Aruna off, as a hinoki top ply, is arguably a better blade for breaking tempo. Great for blocks and loops, has an edge on late loops, while on tempo (ball at the top of it's course or earlier) limba and koto normally has the edge. (you checked out Aruna Quadri playing? for Joola Off ref)
Limba is sort of (stereo typically) the jack of all trades. Great loops, good blocks, softer and less hard than koto, but still, in most blades, shorter rebound than hinoki type blades, but longer than koto. (although it might vary depending on 2nd ply, core, composite etc) On the top 100 limba has majority with koto on second.

Could you compare the Aruna Off and P5000 to present what you personally feel is lacking in these blades?
And whether you have any preference on the different feels the blades provide?

And as a side note, Yinhe M202 is an Innerforce alc clone. With a small difference in composite material. (eg. POLYETHYLENE Carbon, instead of alc, not a significant difference) Yinhe Pro Feeling is also similar, but while M202 is more similar to Innerforce alc in speed, Yinhe pro feeling is faster than both The Innerforce and Viscaria.
At 42$ it's a bargain I'd take any day ahead of Butts 200$ blades.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32929293810.html?spm=2114.12057483.0.0.713033badvFZQt

Konrad Bak
05-04-2020, 04:31 PM
Stay with p500 and that will be good choice

UpSideDownCarl
05-04-2020, 04:40 PM
Stay with p500 and that will be good choice

If he is in his 70s and wants a little extra from the blade, I can understand that. I can't be sure, because, again, I still have not seen him play. But if he is in his 70s, he is probably not going to learn to do what the P500 would help him learn to do.

So, the Aruna blade is likely fine. A blade with Carbon is likely fine. But that Balsa blade.....???? Just say no to drugs! :)

So, he could try to stick with the P500. But he could also stick with the Aruna. Or an inexpensive inner carbon like the Fang Bo 2 that I listed above might be fine. So would any number of inner carbon blades from Chinese companies where the blade is good but is not as expensive as the Butterfly blades.

And if he is in that category of older folks who would be helped by a little carbon, then he should be using medium soft rubbers and definitely not hard rubbers. If he had the impact to use the hard rubbers the way they are meant to be used, then he should not use Carbon.

And, to me, to save Basmundo's wallet, probably, as important as anything else, is, he needs to find someone who knows how to glue and cut rubbers near him, and watch them do it once and then start doing it himself, or continue to get them to do it. Even if he pays them a small amount of cash. Thinking you need to get a new blade every time you get a new set of rubbers is going to be way too expensive. And some of why people are scared to try themselves is, messing up can be expensive. But, there are many easy ways of cutting rubbers.

And again, the best we can do concerning appropriate equipment without seeing Basmundo play is guess. But what I have presented has decent odds behind it. :)

Basmundo
05-04-2020, 11:03 PM
If he is in his 70s and wants a little extra from the blade, I can understand that. I can't be sure, because, again, I still have not seen him play. But if he is in his 70s, he is probably not going to learn to do what the P500 would help him learn to do.

So, the Aruna blade is likely fine. A blade with Carbon is likely fine. But that Balsa blade.....???? Just say no to drugs! :)

So, he could try to stick with the P500. But he could also stick with the Aruna. Or an inexpensive inner carbon like the Fang Bo 2 that I listed above might be fine. So would any number of inner carbon blades from Chinese companies where the blade is good but is not as expensive as the Butterfly blades.

And if he is in that category of older folks who would be helped by a little carbon, then he should be using medium soft rubbers and definitely not hard rubbers. If he had the impact to use the hard rubbers the way they are meant to be used, then he should not use Carbon.

And, to me, to save Basmundo's wallet, probably, as important as anything else, is, he needs to find someone who knows how to glue and cut rubbers near him, and watch them do it once and then start doing it himself, or continue to get them to do it. Even if he pays them a small amount of cash. Thinking you need to get a new blade every time you get a new set of rubbers is going to be way too expensive. And some of why people are scared to try themselves is, messing up can be expensive. But, there are many easy ways of cutting rubbers.

And again, the best we can do concerning appropriate equipment without seeing Basmundo play is guess. But what I have presented has decent odds behind it. :)

Thank you again Carl and Konrad
Firstly I should say that my original statement about this choice “representinga considerable investment for me” was more about the importance of the decisionrather than the financial aspect. Certainly I don’t want to spend unnecessarilybut I have £300 ($330) that I am be willing and able to pay for this setupwithout hesitation to achieve the desired result.
It would appear that an arylate carbon blade was, by accident, not sucha bad initial idea of mine. Neither of you were aware of my age which possiblywhy you were initially leaning towards an all wood blade.
I managed the speed of the balsa blade OK and didn’t drop a set whenlast used in anger. However I now understand, thanks to you guys, that it isnot ideally suited to my style.
The Aruna blade that I have has 1.9/2.0mm EL-S rubber on the FH and 1.9/2.0mmFX-S on the BH, which, if I am understanding things correctly, is not a badsetup for my needs. That being the case I am inclined to leave that availablefor me and buy the complete new setup to your recommendation. I understand thatit is not ideal that you have not seen a video of me playing but that is notpossible in the circumstances and I want to be ready with the new bat for whenlockdown is lifted. I am hoping that you will advise me therefore.
The question is, which blade with the carbon behind 2 layers of plywould be best for me:
Fang Bo Carbon?
Hurricane Long 5? Better than Fang Bo?
Innerforce Layer ALC?
Innerforce Layer ZLF? Slightly slower than ALC?

Regarding rubber, if you remember that spin is of importance to me formid-distance loping on both wings and I that I am also looking to optimiseflicks (particularly BH) for open ups. I now fully understand Carl’s advice on whyD09C would not be advisable, being too hard. I had been advised by a UKsupplier that the FX-S would be good for banana flicks which is why I wouldprefer to retain the current Aruna setup. However I note Carl that you use FX-Pon your BH which is slightly softer so perhaps this would be better for me. Itwas also recommended that I would be advised to go to the thicker 2.1/2.2mmrubber thickness for the purpose of aiding flicks.
My original thoughts were before making contact were to go for Tenergy05 on the FH and 05FX on the BH, but changed my mind after reading about 09C.As I said I have now discounted 09C.
If you are not already, before you get thoroughly fed up with me, Iwould appreciate your final advice on blade and rubbers without wishing to putyou under any pressure but I trust your opinion based on your knowledge of thesubject. You have been extremely helpful in increasing my understanding and Ihave been touched by the time that you have spent corresponding with me. I justwant to find the best setup using your advice that I can stick with and withoutthinking that there may be something better.
If only we lived closer as I would like to buy you guys a big drink:after lockdown is lifted of course!

Best regards

sspark80
05-05-2020, 12:01 AM
Hi, Basmundo. How do you find you play with the Rhyzer 43? I haven't played with it, but I have played opponents who use it and generate a high level of spin. I'm not trying to throw another variable into your mix, but I wonder if it might be a good rubber to try on your Aruna blade.
Anyhow, I'm learning from this discussion; thank you for starting it. And I wish you the best of luck in finding a setup that meets your needs and adds to your level of enjoyment when you play.

S

Kaizoku
05-05-2020, 12:18 AM
A lot of controversy here... XD Anyway,
FX-P is awesome close to the table, good control, good spin, just lacks the higher speed-gear of the other high end rubbers, but you don't need that for your game so it's perfect.
Actually, Emmanuel Lebesson a pro french player, used it on both sides before, now on bh only. And he uses an all wood blade that is even slower than innerforce alc... around innerforce zlf speed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcKHq4dwr1s
That last point was actually hillarious btw. ALmost ANYONE would back of the table to lob... but not Lebesson. XD

Anyway, among those blades, I'd say please forget about fang bo carbon and Long 5, they're fasssst. and close to the table you don't want it to be that fast... If I were you, I'd go with the Innerforce Layer ALC. (with FX-P both sides) As Zlf might be slower than what you bargained for.

UpSideDownCarl
05-05-2020, 01:39 AM
Yeah. If cost is not really an issue, the IFL ALC is your best bet.

For rubbers you could get ELP for FH and FXP for BH. But I would get T05 for FH and T05fx for BH if I was not thinking about price.

And everyone being on lockdown would make it hard to make footage of yourself playing when nobody can play....;)

Konrad Bak
05-05-2020, 03:09 AM
I used 300-400 blades last 3years.
So Im not good 'in' rubbers because I know maybe 200-250 rubbers.
I really love voice of Zhang Jike about equipment or simply : blade choice.
He said that He use his Old Viscaria because he loves their short handle and he trust the way how blade feels in his small hands in crucial moments and he added that He won his titles with Viscaria so he has own sentiments because he knows that he can trust ... ok everybody has own opinion Im fine with that and
more words would be necessary but he added, you wont be satisfied as you want to be with your equipment and you always try find better equipment and I understand why pros choose equipment and what is the main reason why players sticks to their own choices of blades

Konrad Bak
05-05-2020, 03:23 AM
Handle.
The biggest EJ .
Samsonov has grip tape so he doesn't care about handle feeling.
So you can find a lot of blades but handle is the most important.
Sometimes you can play better with blade because your wrist has more moves and you can add extra spin or extra movement to the ball.
Sometimes you can play with cheap slow hard blade with ST handle and don't play well with expensive FL Goddess butterfly revoldia or something.
I think good idea could be something like application with all handle dimensions and handle scan.
You have small hands but you are 6,6 foot soldier and you like koto?! you loves blocking
so application choose you equipment from Oh sang. and etc

Basmundo
05-05-2020, 06:57 AM
Hi, Basmundo. How do you find you play with the Rhyzer 43? I haven't played with it, but I have played opponents who use it and generate a high level of spin. I'm not trying to throw another variable into your mix, but I wonder if it might be a good rubber to try on your Aruna blade.
Anyhow, I'm learning from this discussion; thank you for starting it. And I wish you the best of luck in finding a setup that meets your needs and adds to your level of enjoyment when you play.

S
Hello S
Thank you for your contribution. I found the Rhyzer 43 to be very good for spin but I found it lacking in lift to achieve backhand banana flicks for me. However this might well have been due to my technique plus, as advised in the thread above, the fact that I was using it on the TSP Balsa 6.5mm OFF blade which appears to have been far from ideal.
I suggest that you address the same question to both Carl and Konrad who are featured on this post. Between them they seem to have an encyclopaedic knowledge on this subject. Konrad has apparently tried in the region of 250 rubbers.
Good luck
B

Basmundo
05-05-2020, 07:34 AM
Yeah. If cost is not really an issue, the IFL ALC is your best bet.

For rubbers you could get ELP for FH and FXP for BH. But I would get T05 for FH and T05fx for BH if I was not thinking about price.

And everyone being on lockdown would make it hard to make footage of yourself playing when nobody can play....;)
Thank you Carl
I apologise if I have caused you additional correspondence while trying to find the best low cost option and I trust that the lifting of that constraint has allowed you to recommend what you feel is the optimum setup for me based on the details that I have described to you about me and my game.
Before I place the order, what are your recommendation regarding sponge thickness as mentioned in my last post: 1.9-2.0mm or 2.1-2.2mm to optimise spin and best aid BH banana flicks etc?
I obviously need to sort out fitting my own rubbers as you have suggested. I did this many years ago so it shouldn't be a problem. Do you think that I should consider trying the T05/T05FX rubbers on the Aruna blade in the future as a spare when I wear out the current rubbers on it?
Enough about me. I would be interested in you and your situation and why you use the OS Virtuoso+ blade with the Evolution rubbers and how that combination compares with your recommendation for me.
Thanks again for your time and patience.

Basmundo
05-05-2020, 08:19 AM
I used 300-400 blades last 3years.
So Im not good 'in' rubbers because I know maybe 200-250 rubbers.
I really love voice of Zhang Jike about equipment or simply : blade choice.
He said that He use his Old Viscaria because he loves their short handle and he trust the way how blade feels in his small hands in crucial moments and he added that He won his titles with Viscaria so he has own sentiments because he knows that he can trust ... ok everybody has own opinion Im fine with that and
more words would be necessary but he added, you wont be satisfied as you want to be with your equipment and you always try find better equipment and I understand why pros choose equipment and what is the main reason why players sticks to their own choices of blades
Hello Konrad
Firstly your English language is pretty good my friend. Thank you for going to the trouble of entering this conversation. I would have struggled conduct it in your language!
You are privileged, in TT terms, to have been able to try so many blades and rubbers. Is it because you are in the business of selling equipment.
I accept that you do not recommend Butterfly equipment, presumably due to its price, but do you agree with Carl's recommendation for me being the Innerforce Layer ALC with T05 for FH and T05FX for BH? I have qualified my request to concentrate on the ideal setup rather than the most economical? In agreement with your post above, I think that what you are saying is that it is important to have complete confidence in your setup to be able to concentrate fully on your game rather than have that doubt always in your mind. This is exactly what I am trying to achieve.
Can you also give me your thoughts on sponge thickness as detailed in my last post to both you and Carl.

Thanks again for your help

UpSideDownCarl
05-05-2020, 02:24 PM
Thank you Carl
I apologise if I have caused you additional correspondence while trying to find the best low cost option and I trust that the lifting of that constraint has allowed you to recommend what you feel is the optimum setup for me based on the details that I have described to you about me and my game.
Before I place the order, what are your recommendation regarding sponge thickness as mentioned in my last post: 1.9-2.0mm or 2.1-2.2mm to optimise spin and best aid BH banana flicks etc?
I obviously need to sort out fitting my own rubbers as you have suggested. I did this many years ago so it shouldn't be a problem. Do you think that I should consider trying the T05/T05FX rubbers on the Aruna blade in the future as a spare when I wear out the current rubbers on it?
Enough about me. I would be interested in you and your situation and why you use the OS Virtuoso+ blade with the Evolution rubbers and how that combination compares with your recommendation for me.
Thanks again for your time and patience.

There is confusion on thickness of rubber for a lot of people. I consistently hear people say that thicker rubber is faster and harder to control.

On the faster part: thinner sponge can be shown to be faster on direct contact. There are videos that clearly show this to be the case. The sponge dampens contact. Less sponge causes a faster shot than more sponge. This is simple physics.

Thinner sponge is easier to control if you are making direct contact. But not if you are spinning the ball.

Thicker sponge is actually slightly slower. It is harder to control in direct contact because the rebound of the sponge makes how the ball comes out less predictable. But thicker sponge makes it so you can let the ball penetrate deeper into the sponge before it hits the wood. If you are making spin contact (tangential--which is sort of the opposite of direct contact) you will get more spin with the thicker sponge. And the rebound of the sponge and topsheet will not cause the ball projecting out to be less controllable because of the tangential contact and how the topsheet grabs.

Since on offensive topspin shots, you control the shot with the amount of spin, the thicker sponge makes it easier to control shots with heavy spin because it makes it easier to create that spin. This also makes it so, on those kinds of heavy spin shots--which in table tennis are called loops--you can swing with more force and not bottom out and still spin the ball.

So, you might get a faster shot when spinning the ball with a thicker sponge. But that is not because the thicker sponge makes the rubber faster. It is because, provided your contact is tangential (brush contact) you can put more power into the shot.

So, for someone who is mostly looping or making spin contact on all shots, it is actually easier to control a shot with a thicker sponge.

Therefore, if you are sort of hearing a harsh, sharp, high pitched sound on contact, from the wood, then thinner rubbers will be easier for you to use in general. If you are hearing a more muted, soft sound, [or, very high level players with powerful impact hear a popping sound like a cork that is not as high pitched as the sound from the wood], then you will be better off with max thickness.

The corking sound, is actually the sound of the rebound of the topsheet, almost like the sound made when you crack a whip or pop a cork out of a champagne bottle. The sound is actually caused by how fast the rubber moves, after it has been stretched and distorted by the ball contact when the rubber rebounds to its original shape. Likely, you are not getting this sound as it takes high level technique and considerable force on impact to stretch the topsheet that far sideways to get the pop. So if you hear "crack", probably you are hitting the wood. You can still spin if you hit the wood. But not nearly as much. And if you hit the wood and spin, I would call that a drive loop rather than a loop.

One more detail on this, if you really want to make over the table BH loops, you need to not hit the wood for the shot to be consistent.

So, based on what you want, I would get the max. Even if what you are doing and what you want to be doing are not yet the same.

A decently high level player can spin the ball with either thick or thinner. But thicker helps you learn NOT TO contact the wood when you want that spin. So, that may also have to do with why you are having trouble with openings. That and the thick balsa blade would be a bad combination for learning over the table loops. (BH flips are over the table loops--FH flips can be loop or direct contact).

Why Tenergy, for what you are saying you want, nothing is really as good.

Why do I use MXP and FXP. They are good enough and I can get 4 sheets (2 MXP and 2 FXP) for the price of 2 Tenergy. And MXP/FXP are good enough; slightly faster, slightly less spin. I would take the extra spin. But I would rather the extra $$$. :)

Also, what makes Tenergy unique, there are other rubbers that get as much spin. There are other rubbers that get as much speed. No rubber has a sponge anywhere near as good as the Tenergy sponge. And it helps you feel the ball better than any ESPN sponge. So, if price were not a consideration, I would get Tenergy. I actually may get Tenergy next time I buy because I am starting to need new rubbers.

Why the OSP Virtuoso Plus? I have tried a lot of blades. There was a point where I was using a Timo Boll ZLF. Now, that blade was really great. I still have it. I got it from a friend who was sponsored by Butterfly. But one day I tried a friends blade (it is always good to take a few hits with someone else's setup to see how it feels) and he had an all wood blade and I realized how much I missed that all wood feeling.

I tried a bunch of different things. But the blade I am using now, I just never wanted to put it down or try anything else after. It may not be good for everyone. But it is perfect for me. So.....that is why I use the V+.

Servet
05-05-2020, 02:26 PM
I have the innerforce ALC tenergy 05 on th and goldarc 8 bh and i must say it's a treat to play with it.

Basmundo
05-05-2020, 10:33 PM
There is confusion on thickness of rubber for a lot of people. I consistently hear people say that thicker rubber is faster and harder to control.

On the faster part: thinner sponge can be shown to be faster on direct contact. There are videos that clearly show this to be the case. The sponge dampens contact. Less sponge causes a faster shot than more sponge. This is simple physics.

Thinner sponge is easier to control if you are making direct contact. But not if you are spinning the ball.

Thicker sponge is actually slightly slower. It is harder to control in direct contact because the rebound of the sponge makes how the ball comes out less predictable. But thicker sponge makes it so you can let the ball penetrate deeper into the sponge before it hits the wood. If you are making spin contact (tangential--which is sort of the opposite of direct contact) you will get more spin with the thicker sponge. And the rebound of the sponge and topsheet will not cause the ball projecting out to be less controllable because of the tangential contact and how the topsheet grabs.

Since on offensive topspin shots, you control the shot with the amount of spin, the thicker sponge makes it easier to control shots with heavy spin because it makes it easier to create that spin. This also makes it so, on those kinds of heavy spin shots--which in table tennis are called loops--you can swing with more force and not bottom out and still spin the ball.

So, you might get a faster shot when spinning the ball with a thicker sponge. But that is not because the thicker sponge makes the rubber faster. It is because, provided your contact is tangential (brush contact) you can put more power into the shot.

So, for someone who is mostly looping or making spin contact on all shots, it is actually easier to control a shot with a thicker sponge.

Therefore, if you are sort of hearing a harsh, sharp, high pitched sound on contact, from the wood, then thinner rubbers will be easier for you to use in general. If you are hearing a more muted, soft sound, [or, very high level players with powerful impact hear a popping sound like a cork that is not as high pitched as the sound from the wood], then you will be better off with max thickness.

The corking sound, is actually the sound of the rebound of the topsheet, almost like the sound made when you crack a whip or pop a cork out of a champagne bottle. The sound is actually caused by how fast the rubber moves, after it has been stretched and distorted by the ball contact when the rubber rebounds to its original shape. Likely, you are not getting this sound as it takes high level technique and considerable force on impact to stretch the topsheet that far sideways to get the pop. So if you hear "crack", probably you are hitting the wood. You can still spin if you hit the wood. But not nearly as much. And if you hit the wood and spin, I would call that a drive loop rather than a loop.

One more detail on this, if you really want to make over the table BH loops, you need to not hit the wood for the shot to be consistent.

So, based on what you want, I would get the max. Even if what you are doing and what you want to be doing are not yet the same.

A decently high level player can spin the ball with either thick or thinner. But thicker helps you learn NOT TO contact the wood when you want that spin. So, that may also have to do with why you are having trouble with openings. That and the thick balsa blade would be a bad combination for learning over the table loops. (BH flips are over the table loops--FH flips can be loop or direct contact).

Why Tenergy, for what you are saying you want, nothing is really as good.

Why do I use MXP and FXP. They are good enough and I can get 4 sheets (2 MXP and 2 FXP) for the price of 2 Tenergy. And MXP/FXP are good enough; slightly faster, slightly less spin. I would take the extra spin. But I would rather the extra $$$. :)

Also, what makes Tenergy unique, there are other rubbers that get as much spin. There are other rubbers that get as much speed. No rubber has a sponge anywhere near as good as the Tenergy sponge. And it helps you feel the ball better than any ESPN sponge. So, if price were not a consideration, I would get Tenergy. I actually may get Tenergy next time I buy because I am starting to need new rubbers.

Why the OSP Virtuoso Plus? I have tried a lot of blades. There was a point where I was using a Timo Boll ZLF. Now, that blade was really great. I still have it. I got it from a friend who was sponsored by Butterfly. But one day I tried a friends blade (it is always good to take a few hits with someone else's setup to see how it feels) and he had an all wood blade and I realized how much I missed that all wood feeling.

I tried a bunch of different things. But the blade I am using now, I just never wanted to put it down or try anything else after. It may not be good for everyone. But it is perfect for me. So.....that is why I use the V+.

How refreshing to get such a logical explanation regarding the characteristics of less or more sponge thickness. I have asked this question of suppliers on a few occasions and have simply received the stock answer, as you have stated, that thicker sponge is faster and harder to control and I have been dissuaded from ordering the thicker versions. I knew that there was more to it along the lines that you have explained although my thoughts were simply that a thinner sponge would allow the ball to bottom out more easily and therefore potentially go long off the end of the table. Everyone should read you post, including suppliers.
I am interested in your comments on your current setup and also that you once used the TBZLF blade. That must have been significantly faster and have less control than the Virtuoso I would have thought.
I believe that you have been instrumental in helping me make up my mind on the direction that I am going to take. It is coincidental that it was exactly what my thoughts were initially but without the in-depth knowledge that you have applied to reach that conclusion.
I had been waiting to see if prices might drop due to the lockdown but this seems unlikely so I will place my order as soon as there is the likelihood that we can resume play.
If you are in agreement, I would like to keep in touch occasionally to let you know how it is going. Is there a way we can do this outside the forum?
By the way; why UpSideDown?

Best regards

UpSideDownCarl
05-06-2020, 12:16 AM
By the way; why UpSideDown?

I teach yoga. I used to skate vert ramps in competitions and then in the circus. So, some people say it is because I have spent so much time UpSideDown.

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But I think it is because I see things UpSideDown and BackWards and that gives me a clearer perspective. :) Note, I told you almost the opposite of what everyone says about thick and thin sponge. But....seeing it from a unique angle, my answer is more complete....because it us UpSideDown, it is really RightSideUP. Plus, when people try and turn it into an Acronym (USDC or USDCarl) then it is clear I have a currency named after me. :)

UpSideDownCarl
05-06-2020, 01:05 AM
I am interested in your comments on your current setup and also that you once used the TBZLF blade. That must have been significantly faster and have less control than the Virtuoso I would have thought.

First: My OSP Virtuoso Plus is about 92 grams. The result is, it is not noticeably slower than the TB ZLF was. It might be a little slower. I no longer can really remember. But, man, nothing feels as good to me as this blade.

I do not need any more speed than this blade. But, truthfully, I don't need any more speed than a Stiga Allround Evolution either. I can make nasty shots with spin and pace with any blade. Because that is much more about technique than equipment. Which is also why, a younger player, who is developing, who could be using legs and hips but isn't because he is using a blade that is so fast that he has to cut down his stroke to get the ball on the table, is slowing the pace at which he will develop good technique. A slower blade will force you to learn how to use your legs, hips, core rotation, weight transfer TIMED WITH THE WHIP OF the forearm and wrist.

The key part is in capitals. You don't need a lot of force. You just have to pop the timing of legs, hips, weight transfer, core rotation with the whip of the arm and the contact of the ball. When you do this you can make powerful shots very efficiently. It is more about everything being timed and coordinated. Rather than it being brute force. And when you do that, the power comes right from the ground up.

Then the other thing, if you are really spinning the ball, you are not really using the blade so much for speed; you are not even letting the ball compress the sponge enough to touch the wood. Instead you are using the stretch and distortion of the topsheet and how it rebounds, so you are using the rubber; not the blade. And when you do that, a blade that seemed slow, will still produce shots that are quite fast.

That TB ZLF feels really good. I love that blade. I really like the feeling of Zylon without the carbon.

Zylon is a soft material almost like plastic. Really, closer to a polyester. Very similar to Kevlar. They used to make bullet proof vests from Zylon too but they found that after a certain number of years, the material changed and stopped being bullet proof. So, not as good for a bullet proof vest. And, that soft material that has some rebound to it, helps you hold the ball on the blade face and then rebounds to help propel the ball out. Which means you can generate a heck of a lot of spin if you know how to use it.

But on an inner layer, when the composite material is deeper, Zylon without the Carbon is actually a bit of a waste of time. Because when it is alone and deeper, it can't really do what I just described to anywhere near the same extent as it can when it is next to a thin top ply. That is why I said, not to get the IFL ZLF. But I didn't feel like explaining it. Too many words.

So the TB ZLF is amazing for spinning the ball. However, the Koto top ply is hard and I like the soft feel of Limba better. And Zylon, like most composite materials dampens the feeling of the best vibrations from the wood. So the feel of the wood and the ball contact feel muted compared to a good all wood blade. Which is why, that day, which I already described in a previous post, where I tried my friend's all wood blade, I realized how much I missed the feeling of an all wood blade. And how good LIMBA feels to my hand.

I have lots of blades. I have about 20-25 blades. More than enough. I have given a bunch of blades away too. Since I started using the V+ I have not really bothered trying anything else. Nothing is as good, at least not for me.

I name my blades. My Clipper that was 95 grams, (wow was that a beast), was "The Death Stick". The ZLF was "The Wand of Destiny"; I never thought I would switch from that one. (Those are both wands from Harry Potter). :) The black tag Viscaria that I had that I sold to Anno Van Doorn from MyTT (some people will kill me for the fact that I sold a black tag Viscaria for $70.00 but Anno liked the blade and I didn't need it, so I was happy for it to be in the hands of someone who liked it) that blade was really a beast and it was called "Mjolnir", that is the name of Thor's Hammer.

Now, in Harry Potter his wand is a regular old wand. But he likes it. And it works for him. And it has special powers, but only against Voldemort. His wand is made of Holly and Phoenix Feather. In the last book the Holly and Phoenix Feather wand is broken and he needs a new wand. In the end, he ends up with the Death Stick, also known as The Wand of Destiny and also known as The Elder Wand. That is the most powerful wand in history and the true owner of the wand cannot be beaten in a fair wizarding duel. So, Harry ends up with the Death Stick, and decides he doesn't like it. So he uses that most powerful wand to fix his broken Holly and Phoenix Feather wand. And then puts the Death Stick in Dumbledore's tomb. In other words, he chose a wand that was less powerful because he liked it more. :)

So, the Virtuoso Plus is named: "Holly and Phoenix Feather".

Maybe my story there makes why I use the blade make some sense. :) Either that, or I just like telling stories. :)

Basmundo
05-06-2020, 05:40 AM
I have the innerforce ALC tenergy 05 on th and goldarc 8 bh and i must say it's a treat to play with it.
Thank you Servet, good to know. I am not aware of Goldarc 8 but on looking it up it appears to get very good reviews and many users. It would appear faster than T05FX but similar to T05. How do you compare it to both of those as you must have tried T05FX or made a conscious decision to use Goldarc instead?

Basmundo
05-06-2020, 07:57 AM
I teach yoga. I used to skate vert ramps in competitions and then in the circus. So, some people say it is because I have spent so much time UpSideDown.

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But I think it is because I see things UpSideDown and BackWards and that gives me a clearer perspective. :) Note, I told you almost the opposite of what everyone says about thick and thin sponge. But....seeing it from a unique angle, my answer is more complete....because it us UpSideDown, it is really RightSideUP. Plus, when people try and turn it into an Acronym (USDC or USDCarl) then it is clear I have a currency named after me. :)

Brilliant concepts for the UpSideDown name; either way. Great pictures too. I guess that you must be in great shape with your teaching.

Servet
05-06-2020, 08:25 AM
Thank you Servet, good to know. I am not aware of Goldarc 8 but on looking it up it appears to get very good reviews and many users. It would appear faster than T05FX but similar to T05. How do you compare it to both of those as you must have tried T05FX or made a conscious decision to use Goldarc instead?

The goldarc 8 compared to tenergy 05 has less how to say it life on it's own.It doesn't have the catapult effect like tenergy but has a better feeling and for me it grabs the ball better.I compared them using on fh and bh and i was amazed how good it was on both sides.On passive shots or in the short game for me goldarc 8 worked better.It has better control than tenergy 05.Speed is almost like tenergy.When you hit the ball harder it is a treat i must say.It lasts long and doesn't loose it's properties even after 3 months playing with it (3-4 times a week 2hrs) ofc you need to keep it clean.I must say it's the 47.5 version in MAX (2.1mm).
I ordered one more sheet and I think i will play it on bh,because i can change the direction of the ball so easy with it and i like to try the victas v15 extra on fh based of some reviews.All in all there are fields where for me the goldarc 8 was better than the tenergy 05,but I can say that this combination of blade and rubbers worked wonders for me (it elevated my game in so many aspects).Hope this helps a bit.Greetings!

Basmundo
05-06-2020, 08:34 AM
I don't know what happened to the text from my reply but I remarked on how good the pictures were and also how interesting both the reasons behind the UpSideDown part of your name are.
I assume that you are pretty well toned with your teaching and that must assist you in your TT significantly.

UpSideDownCarl
05-06-2020, 06:19 PM
I don't know what happened to the text from my reply but I remarked on how good the pictures were and also how interesting both the reasons behind the UpSideDown part of your name are.
I assume that you are pretty well toned with your teaching and that must assist you in your TT significantly.

I am a bit older than in those photos. The skate photos were 25 years ago, back in my 30s. :)

But for my age, I am in decent shape and definitely I move like I am younger.

Glad you liked my explanation of UpSideDown & BackWards sometimes being RightSideUp. :)

Basmundo
05-06-2020, 09:59 PM
The goldarc 8 compared to tenergy 05 has less how to say it life on it's own.It doesn't have the catapult effect like tenergy but has a better feeling and for me it grabs the ball better.I compared them using on fh and bh and i was amazed how good it was on both sides.On passive shots or in the short game for me goldarc 8 worked better.It has better control than tenergy 05.Speed is almost like tenergy.When you hit the ball harder it is a treat i must say.It lasts long and doesn't loose it's properties even after 3 months playing with it (3-4 times a week 2hrs) ofc you need to keep it clean.I must say it's the 47.5 version in MAX (2.1mm).
I ordered one more sheet and I think i will play it on bh,because i can change the direction of the ball so easy with it and i like to try the victas v15 extra on fh based of some reviews.All in all there are fields where for me the goldarc 8 was better than the tenergy 05,but I can say that this combination of blade and rubbers worked wonders for me (it elevated my game in so many aspects).Hope this helps a bit.Greetings!
Thanks Servet. It is not a rubber that I knew anything about until your post. Certainly one to consider it seems.
Best regards

piligrim
05-06-2020, 10:30 PM
A lot of controversy here... XD Anyway,
FX-P is awesome close to the table, good control, good spin, just lacks the higher speed-gear of the other high end rubbers, but you don't need that for your game so it's perfect.
Actually, Emmanuel Lebesson a pro french player, used it on both sides before, now on bh only. And he uses an all wood blade that is even slower than innerforce alc... around innerforce zlf speed




You know what rubber he is using on FH now?

Kaizoku
05-07-2020, 10:22 AM
You know what rubber he is using on FH now?

Red Joola Rhyzer Pro 45? I noticed, but nothing I have experience with. Medium-hard sponge, good spin. Probably faster than FX-P, that's about it. I heard it's better at a couple of steps back from the table.
Probs comparable with Evolution EL-P.

Joola Ryzer Pro 43 (bh) is a different discussion. all in all I can't differentiate it much (on paper) from FX-P without trying it.
Hence it's probably a good ref point for FX-P.

piligrim
05-07-2020, 10:55 AM
Any evidence he is using Joola Rhyzer Pro 45?

Basmundo
05-31-2020, 06:41 AM
A lot of controversy here... XD Anyway,
FX-P is awesome close to the table, good control, good spin, just lacks the higher speed-gear of the other high end rubbers, but you don't need that for your game so it's perfect.
Actually, Emmanuel Lebesson a pro french player, used it on both sides before, now on bh only. And he uses an all wood blade that is even slower than innerforce alc... around innerforce zlf speed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcKHq4dwr1s
That last point was actually hillarious btw. ALmost ANYONE would back of the table to lob... but not Lebesson. XD

Anyway, among those blades, I'd say please forget about fang bo carbon and Long 5, they're fasssst. and close to the table you don't want it to be that fast... If I were you, I'd go with the Innerforce Layer ALC. (with FX-P both sides) As Zlf might be slower than what you bargained for.

How does FX-S compare with FX-P please?

Konrad Bak
05-31-2020, 11:03 AM
deleted

Basmundo
05-31-2020, 10:23 PM
Fx s is slower.
Dwell time is longer

BTW lebesson has propably 47,5 Fxs and his personal blade is hand made so we cant compare his equipment

Thanks Konrad, a good point.

Der_Echte
05-31-2020, 11:03 PM
I am a bit older than in those photos. The skate photos were 25 years ago, back in my 30s. :)

But for my age, I am in decent shape and definitely I move like I am younger... :)

I remember when Carl took me and PingPongHolic to Robert Chen's basement TT club one late night around midnight. Robert Chen was prolly in his 50s that night and lamented his footwork... he said he had "The Footwork of an ELEPHANT" That night, the 4 yrs of footwork training I had in Korea still did not crack my thick skull and I wished for such Elephant footwork.

I have improved to the point of Hippo footwork.

Point?

Some footwork is better than none.

Der_Echte
05-31-2020, 11:08 PM
Basmundo, I have used both.

FX-P is slower, more controllable and spinnier on the low to medium impacts. On full impacts, it is slower, but very spinny. Still pretty linear of a rubber, a little dynamic, but not full.

FX-S is a modern dynamic soft sponged rubber. Medium pace on slow to medium impacts, extra spin on brush with faster bat and real extra catapult on fast bat half-solid or solid impacts. Real turbo spin gear on big swings - both brush and loopdrive.

If you more solidly impact the ball and are not using MAX swings all the time, you will likely have better control and performance from FX-P, although to top end isn't terrible.

If you like a larger swing or have a real fast bat speed, you will REALLY like the spin (and yes, even pace) you can make with FX-S if you are one who "catches and Throws" the ball, instead of bang into it head on.

Konrad Bak
05-31-2020, 11:24 PM
deleted

UpSideDownCarl
06-01-2020, 12:01 AM
Yeah. I think Der may have just listed the rubbers backwards.

FXP has a dynamic sponge with more catapult and it is slightly softer. FXS has a sponge with little catapult. So what you put into it is what you get out of it. It gets excellent spin, but it does not have as many gears as FXP.

Konrad Bak
06-01-2020, 01:08 AM
deleted

piligrim
06-01-2020, 01:52 PM
Fxs is slower than Fxp.
Dont make people foolish



yogi in his review mentioned that FX-S faster then FX-P

Konrad Bak
06-01-2020, 03:05 PM
deleted

piligrim
06-01-2020, 03:13 PM
Tibhar rate FX-S speed 11.8 and FX-P 11.5

Konrad Bak
06-01-2020, 03:34 PM
deleted

Basmundo
06-18-2020, 02:38 PM
I had the same idea, when I saw your 4 equipments but my english is not perfect so I cant say with the same easy words.
P500 + Rasanter R/V 47/48/50/53 or Rhyzer 45/48/50, Fastarc G1/P1, TSP Ventus Speed/ SUPER / Rakza 7/9/10 Donic Bluestorm Z1/Z2/Z1Turbo, Gewo Nexxus EL/XT 48/50/53, Xiom Vega Pro/X/Tour, Xiom Omega V PRO/TOUR/ASIA, Omega VII TOUR/ASIA, Evolution MXP/ MXS/MXK, MXP50, Victas V15 Limber/Stiff/Extra, Victas VS 402 Double Extra, DHS Goldarc 8 47.5/50, Butterfly Tenergy 05/80/64+ fx and H version
Dignics/Dynaryz, Stiga Mantra M/H, Stiga DNA pro M/H
and everything will be OK.

Hello Konrad
Although some time ago, you listed recommended rubbers as above. I have been advised by others to look ay Xiom Vega Pro for FH and Vega Europe for BH. I would like your opinion on this recommendation in view of your experience with rubbers.
I note that Xiom have brought out Vega X as a plastic ball upgrade of the Vega Pro. Do you think this would be a better alternative and is there a similar upgrade for the BH rubber? How about Vega Japan?
The subtle differences between these rubbers make it difficult to decide on the ones best suited for maximum spin with maximum control and reasonable (but not silly) speed for an intermediate player.

Firestarter
07-14-2020, 02:58 PM
Now, in Harry Potter his wand is a regular old wand. But he likes it. And it works for him. And it has special powers, but only against Voldemort. His wand is made of Holly and Phoenix Feather. In the last book the Holly and Phoenix Feather wand is broken and he needs a new wand. In the end, he ends up with the Death Stick, also known as The Wand of Destiny and also known as The Elder Wand. That is the most powerful wand in history and the true owner of the wand cannot be beaten in a fair wizarding duel. So, Harry ends up with the Death Stick, and decides he doesn't like it. So he uses that most powerful wand to fix his broken Holly and Phoenix Feather wand. And then puts the Death Stick in Dumbledore's tomb. In other words, he chose a wand that was less powerful because he liked it more. :)

So, the Virtuoso Plus is named: "Holly and Phoenix Feather".

Maybe my story there makes why I use the blade make some sense. :) Either that, or I just like telling stories. :)

i KNEW IT! I KNEW IT!
At first I thought you were Gandalf, then I thought Dumbledore. This proves you ARE Dumbledore!!

UpSideDownCarl
07-14-2020, 04:15 PM
i KNEW IT! I KNEW IT!
At first I thought you were Gandalf, then I thought Dumbledore. This proves you ARE Dumbledore!!

hahahahahaha. As a kid, I totally wanted to be Gandalf. Maybe that is how I ended up becoming Dumbledore. :)

In reality, probably, I am more like Bilbo. A little trouble maker who, out of sheer luck, finds a magic ring. :)

Konrad Bak
07-14-2020, 08:43 PM
deleted

M.Hoang
07-15-2020, 04:13 PM
This post is great because me after billion blades know that the most powerful blade is the same that I share with the most love so I choose
Apolonia ZLC
Hugo Calderano SAL
PP MiT Agon Super ZLC
Innerforce Layer ALC
Nittaku Hinoblaze
And thats all. This selection is made by someone who had billion blades, who cant even touch other guy new blades no more because I feel like there is no chance to have new friends.
I always make angry face when someone wants try my equipment and gives me his unrealistic balsa ish blades and tell me "this blade has feeling" and I am like ok, its good to have 90 grams blades...


with rubbers I am more realistic.
Impuls powersponge
Fastarc G1
Rakza 7
Super Ventus
Evo MXP
And you know this is my taste and everybody needs to try something to see what he wants...
People wants get opinion for free and they wants that your opinion will be their best choose.

Read reviews
Buy
Try
Change
Open excel
Put your marks
And stay that you like the most
What do you think about victas and andro blades?

Firestarter
07-16-2020, 06:32 AM
hahahahahaha. As a kid, I totally wanted to be Gandalf. Maybe that is how I ended up becoming Dumbledore. :)

In reality, probably, I am more like Bilbo. A little trouble maker who, out of sheer luck, finds a magic ring. :)
I’ve noticed you’re very much the professor when it comes to Blades and rubbers. So one question cos there’s no need to start a new thread - which is faster Boll ZLF or IF Layer ALC? Different reviews say different things!

UpSideDownCarl
07-16-2020, 07:26 AM
I’ve noticed you’re very much the professor when it comes to Blades and rubbers. So one question cos there’s no need to start a new thread - which is faster Boll ZLF or IF Layer ALC? Different reviews say different things!

You ask a question that people think is an simple one. Wood is wood. It was once alive. Most people who say one of those blades is faster than the other tried ONE of each and decided that the one they tried of each blade was representative of all other blades of its kind.

But since blades weights vary vastly (I have seen Viscarias that were 79 grams and ones that were 98 grams), blades speeds vary as well. Since the two blades you are asking about are close enough in speed that you can find IFL ALCs that are faster than TB ZLFs and TB ZLFs that are faster than IFL ALCs.

Generally, blades of the same make that are lighter, are usually slower. So that 79 gram Viscaria was a decent amount slower than the 98 gram Viscaria.

If you had a TB ZLF and an IFL ALC of the same weight, the speed difference would be negligible.

On short game and close to the table the TB ZLF would be a little faster and sharper. (Close to the table that is not always what you want). Further from the table, the IFL ALC would start having a little more power.

But all in all, they would be comparable. A 92 gram IFL ALC compared to an 85 gram TB ZLF would make someone think the IFL ALC was faster. Switch those numbers and you would switch the results.

So it is easy to see how you have people who have only tried one of each blade saying they know which one is faster and having one set of people insist the ALC is faster and another set of people insisting the ZLF is faster.

Don't get fooled by silly considerations. :)

Kuba Hajto
07-16-2020, 07:39 AM
Wood also changes it's properties over time. It absorbs moisture or looses it depending on environment. I
It will change over time depending how often you play with it, how you treat it, etc

UpSideDownCarl
07-16-2020, 07:49 AM
Wood also changes it's properties over time. It absorbs moisture or looses it depending on environment. I
It will change over time depending how often you play with it, how you treat it, etc

Good point. Also worth noting, Zylon changes properties over time as well.

If you look up Zylon you will find that they used to make Bullet Proof Vests out of Zylon for a while until they discovered that, after a few years, the Zylon was no longer Bullet Proof because of how the molecules break down over time.

I do not really know how that effects play for TT. I could come up with some theories. I could also try my TB ZLF and see if I can tell how it plays now compared to how it played 5 years ago. :) But it still would be theory and subjective opinions.

Kuba Hajto
07-16-2020, 09:56 AM
I think that blades do get better the longer you play them. The common theme in my blades that they seem to be more flexible over time. Maybe the glue used to glue the layers together changes ever so slightly :| I do not know the physics behind this. Also, common behavior across all my collection is that over time blades give more vibration over time, same as a guitar would. What's interesting is that with sealed blades this does occur in much less degree.

IB66
07-16-2020, 09:46 PM
I started playing about 40yrs ago, I had (have) 2 original Tamca 5000 blades, these were equipped with Sriver on BH and Tackiness D on FH, pre speed glue, these blades are fast, how fast compared to the modern ALC etc layered blades I’m not sure, but the Primorac carbon has the Tamca fibres in it, and its truly fast.
i put Stiga Mantra M on one of them when I started playing again 2 yrs ago, oooopps verging on uncontrollable for someone of my ability!!!
I Also have an original Grubba all wood blade that is an all round blade, and I keep returning to it, it seems to feel right with whatever rubber I put on it, i’ve also used other blades Ma long 5, Joola tpe perform, Stiga defensive pro, and a few more. Also the famous Stiga all round classic, which I didn’t really get on with.
Recently the All-Wood Primorac blade which is now really pushing the Grubba blade as 1st choice

What I would say, is that the blade is 80% of your game playing style. if you find one you like and play well with it, then STICK with that blade and just change the rubbers.

30+ yrs ago when I was fitter, faster and the rubbers slower, the TAMCA blade really suited me, I bought the Grubba on a whim, to try an All-Wood blade and during that period of my time playing, I never bought another blade and put the TAMCA’s to one side.
30 + yrs on and the original Grubba blade is still excellent and really suits me. It’s plenty fast enough.
Better technique will also increase the power and speed of your shots.

Remember that these faster blades combined with faster rubbers demand a higher level of ability to use them properly. Only when your ability has outgrown a blade should you change your blade, and a good coach can advise you about that. Changing blades can actually be a backward step.
I’ve changed too many blades Recently and wasted money!!! I didn’t need any new blades, the Grubba is ME, that’s how a blade should truly feel, it’s part of you!!! I was lucky to find it that quickly all those years ago!!

Now , rubbers on the other hand, that’s a different thing completely !!!!!! Total Rubber tart !!!!

all the best in your search, and take the earlier advice and see if you can try other players equipment before you buy!!

IB66
07-16-2020, 10:14 PM
1 other thing to consider-

if you buy a new blade, and new rubbers, try putting your old rubbers on the new blade 1st, this will give you a much better reference point on how different the new blade is. You can then ‘play yourself in’ with the new blade and change rubbers later.

UpSideDownCarl
07-17-2020, 01:56 AM
I started playing about 40yrs ago, I had (have) 2 original Tamca 5000 blades, these were equipped with Sriver on BH and Tackiness D on FH, pre speed glue, these blades are fast, how fast compared to the modern ALC etc layered blades I’m not sure, but the Primorac carbon has the Tamca fibres in it, and its truly fast.
i put Stiga Mantra M on one of them when I started playing again 2 yrs ago, oooopps verging on uncontrollable for someone of my ability!!!
I Also have an original Grubba all wood blade that is an all round blade, and I keep returning to it, it seems to feel right with whatever rubber I put on it, i’ve also used other blades Ma long 5, Joola tpe perform, Stiga defensive pro, and a few more. Also the famous Stiga all round classic, which I didn’t really get on with.
Recently the All-Wood Primorac blade which is now really pushing the Grubba blade as 1st choice

What I would say, is that the blade is 80% of your game playing style. if you find one you like and play well with it, then STICK with that blade and just change the rubbers.

30+ yrs ago when I was fitter, faster and the rubbers slower, the TAMCA blade really suited me, I bought the Grubba on a whim, to try an All-Wood blade and during that period of my time playing, I never bought another blade and put the TAMCA’s to one side.
30 + yrs on and the original Grubba blade is still excellent and really suits me. It’s plenty fast enough.
Better technique will also increase the power and speed of your shots.

Remember that these faster blades combined with faster rubbers demand a higher level of ability to use them properly. Only when your ability has outgrown a blade should you change your blade, and a good coach can advise you about that. Changing blades can actually be a backward step.
I’ve changed too many blades Recently and wasted money!!! I didn’t need any new blades, the Grubba is ME, that’s how a blade should truly feel, it’s part of you!!! I was lucky to find it that quickly all those years ago!!

Now , rubbers on the other hand, that’s a different thing completely !!!!!! Total Rubber tart !!!!

all the best in your search, and take the earlier advice and see if you can try other players equipment before you buy!!

Grubba and Primorac Off- are both great blades. What you say here sounds like another way of saying why I stuck with my OSP Virtuoso Plus.

Basmundo
07-17-2020, 06:49 AM
I started playing about 40yrs ago, I had (have) 2 original Tamca 5000 blades, these were equipped with Sriver on BH and Tackiness D on FH, pre speed glue, these blades are fast, how fast compared to the modern ALC etc layered blades I’m not sure, but the Primorac carbon has the Tamca fibres in it, and its truly fast.
i put Stiga Mantra M on one of them when I started playing again 2 yrs ago, oooopps verging on uncontrollable for someone of my ability!!!
I Also have an original Grubba all wood blade that is an all round blade, and I keep returning to it, it seems to feel right with whatever rubber I put on it, i’ve also used other blades Ma long 5, Joola tpe perform, Stiga defensive pro, and a few more. Also the famous Stiga all round classic, which I didn’t really get on with.
Recently the All-Wood Primorac blade which is now really pushing the Grubba blade as 1st choice

What I would say, is that the blade is 80% of your game playing style. if you find one you like and play well with it, then STICK with that blade and just change the rubbers.

30+ yrs ago when I was fitter, faster and the rubbers slower, the TAMCA blade really suited me, I bought the Grubba on a whim, to try an All-Wood blade and during that period of my time playing, I never bought another blade and put the TAMCA’s to one side.
30 + yrs on and the original Grubba blade is still excellent and really suits me. It’s plenty fast enough.
Better technique will also increase the power and speed of your shots.

Remember that these faster blades combined with faster rubbers demand a higher level of ability to use them properly. Only when your ability has outgrown a blade should you change your blade, and a good coach can advise you about that. Changing blades can actually be a backward step.
I’ve changed too many blades Recently and wasted money!!! I didn’t need any new blades, the Grubba is ME, that’s how a blade should truly feel, it’s part of you!!! I was lucky to find it that quickly all those years ago!!

Now , rubbers on the other hand, that’s a different thing completely !!!!!! Total Rubber tart !!!!

all the best in your search, and take the earlier advice and see if you can try other players equipment before you buy!!

Have you tried the Maze Magic all wood blade? According to Tees Sport stats it has the same speed rating as the Primorac but with with significantly greater control (9.25 compared with 7). However the official Butterfly stats. do not show the same comparison. They show the Grubba and Primorac being almost identical in every respect with the Maze being slower with more vibration, IE. less control. When you look at users evaluations the consensus is thatthe Maze is significantly faster than bot of the other two while being more flexible. Who do you believe!

UpSideDownCarl
07-17-2020, 07:23 AM
Have you tried the Maze Magic all wood blade? According to Tees Sport stats it has the same speed rating as the Primorac but with with significantly greater control (9.25 compared with 7). However the official Butterfly stats. do not show the same comparison. They show the Grubba and Primorac being almost identical in every respect with the Maze being slower with more vibration, IE. less control. When you look at users evaluations the consensus is thatthe Maze is significantly faster than bot of the other two while being more flexible. Who do you believe!

Silly boy. How many people have told you to ignore those types of BS numbers. It is really like listening to a broken record hearing you ask different people the same questions over and over. hahahahaha.

And control is not in a blade or the rubbers. It is in your hand.

Konrad Bak
07-17-2020, 11:54 AM
deleted

Basmundo
07-17-2020, 03:34 PM
Silly boy. How many people have told you to ignore those types of BS numbers. It is really like listening to a broken record hearing you ask different people the same questions over and over. hahahahaha.

And control is not in a blade or the rubbers. It is in your hand.

I know :(. Just wanted to ask IB66 his impression of the blades based on the confusing stats quoted for them. So in fact I was rubbishing the stats effectively. You see I do learn eventually :)

IB66
07-17-2020, 05:19 PM
Hi fellas,
the Primorac and Grubba are very similar, I feel the Primorac is a tad faster.
i looked at maze and boll all round blades as well, but went for the Primorac because Butterfly say it’s their best selling blade (or one of them) could be advertising hype, but if they have sold loads, then that many people can’t be wrong!!!!!
the un-boosted H3 Nat plays virtually the same on both blades, I can’t really feel much difference, maybe the slightly extra speed on the primorac may add about 50mm to the length of a similarity hit loop, hard to say, that’s how close the 2 blades are to each other.
cant compare the 09C between the 2 blades as it’s only been on the Primorac. BH only, I have an old style long FH looping action and hit Fastish / hardish , the spring sponge X is too lively for me, I have trouble adjusting to the additional length it brings. But on the BH side I’m starting to like it more and more.
Maybe I should give the 09C more of a chance on the FH, but I feel that when pushed or rushed during a match situation The slightest error will be far more pronounced. I find this with the majority of hard sponge ESN rubbers and when combined with a fast blade it gets even worse. I tried R53 loved looping with it, counter hit top spins were amazing but the slightest error and bang point over!!! Margin for error is far less, the R53 was mounted on a defensive blade to try and tame it a little !!! To no avail!!!

UpSideDownCarl
07-18-2020, 02:11 AM
I do like the fact that IB66 did a very nice job of talking about how the blades play without ever having to mention anything about numbers.

IB66: the Primorac is an excellent blade. The ply construction:

Limba-Limba-Ayous-Limba-Limba

Gives it a very nice feeling and lets you hold the ball on the blade face for a long time enhancing the ability to spin and to learn to spin for a developing player. This is one of the reasons it is one of the best selling blades of all time. People who know, recommend this for developing players because it is a great blade for that.

The blade I use: OSP Virtuoso Plus, has a slightly different feel. But it has the same plies. And there are many classic blades with the same or similar ply construction. Petr Korbel, Stratus Power Wood and Appelgren Allplay all have that ply construction and all are excellent blades of different speeds. The Nittaku Acoustic has:

Limba-Limba-Tung Tree-Limba-Limba

So, the only ply that is different is the core.

Blade makers can use the same plies and still create blades that feel and play differently. But any blade that has 5 plies and Limba-Limba as the top two plies will have some similar playing qualities.

There are still top pros who use Korbel and Primorac blades for how much spin you can generate and how much you can feel the ball with them. Ma Long used an Acoustic till about 2009. Not sure what the ply construction of the Grubba is. But it may be similar to the ones mentioned above.

IB66
07-22-2020, 09:22 PM
I do like the fact that IB66 did a very nice job of talking about how the blades play without ever having to mention anything about numbers.

IB66: the Primorac is an excellent blade. The ply construction:

Limba-Limba-Ayous-Limba-Limba

Gives it a very nice feeling and lets you hold the ball on the blade face for a long time enhancing the ability to spin and to learn to spin for a developing player. This is one of the reasons it is one of the best selling blades of all time. People who know, recommend this for developing players because it is a great blade for that.

The blade I use: OSP Virtuoso Plus, has a slightly different feel. But it has the same plies. And there are many classic blades with the same or similar ply construction. Petr Korbel, Stratus Power Wood and Appelgren Allplay all have that ply construction and all are excellent blades of different speeds. The Nittaku Acoustic has:

Limba-Limba-Tung Tree-Limba-Limba

So, the only ply that is different is the core.

Blade makers can use the same plies and still create blades that feel and play differently. But any blade that has 5 plies and Limba-Limba as the top two plies will have some similar playing qualities.

There are still top pros who use Korbel and Primorac blades for how much spin you can generate and how much you can feel the ball with them. Ma Long used an Acoustic till about 2009. Not sure what the ply construction of the Grubba is. But it may be similar to the ones mentioned above.

I can put a lot of spin on my shots, it’s been commented on by people I’ve played against and trained with, my technique is generally better than average but still has along way to go. Timing is an issue for me!!!! And movement ......&....&...!!!!!!
when I decide to really try and utilise my technique full throttle, the speed created is really good, never underestimate the speed capability of an all wood all round blade, you just have to work harder!!!
I also have a Long 5 blade which is far better with the Chinese style rubbers but I still prefer the all wood blades, they just give better feel and control for me.
Chinese coaches will usually start all new players with a good all wood blade and upgrade rubbers rather than the blade Until the player reaches a high skill level, only then is the blade upgraded. That’s how important they value a blade, 2 or 3 for life, that sort of thing.

UpSideDownCarl
07-22-2020, 10:42 PM
I can put a lot of spin on my shots, it’s been commented on by people I’ve played against and trained with, my technique is generally better than average but still has along way to go. Timing is an issue for me!!!! And movement ......&....&...!!!!!!
when I decide to really try and utilise my technique full throttle, the speed created is really good, never underestimate the speed capability of an all wood all round blade, you just have to work harder!!!
I also have a Long 5 blade which is far better with the Chinese style rubbers but I still prefer the all wood blades, they just give better feel and control for me.
Chinese coaches will usually start all new players with a good all wood blade and upgrade rubbers rather than the blade Until the player reaches a high skill level, only then is the blade upgraded. That’s how important they value a blade, 2 or 3 for life, that sort of thing.

Great post.

That is how I think it makes sense to upgrade as well. Controlled all wood blade with good feel and good dwell time to help you learn to control the depth of your impact and how to hold the ball on the rubber and the blade face. And you stay with that and upgrade rubbers till there are no more rubber upgrades. Then, you can upgrade your blade if you want.

I can use anything I want. But I like my Virtuoso + (all wood blade) so much that I see no reason to use anything else. I can hit very fast, powerful shots. I do not need an upgrade from that.

So, we are in agreement on many things. :)

Nazmul Haque
07-23-2020, 02:30 AM
First: My OSP Virtuoso Plus is about 92 grams. The result is, it is not noticeably slower than the TB ZLF was. It might be a little slower. I no longer can really remember. But, man, nothing feels as good to me as this blade.

I do not need any more speed than this blade. But, truthfully, I don't need any more speed than a Stiga Allround Evolution either. I can make nasty shots with spin and pace with any blade. Because that is much more about technique than equipment. Which is also why, a younger player, who is developing, who could be using legs and hips but isn't because he is using a blade that is so fast that he has to cut down his stroke to get the ball on the table, is slowing the pace at which he will develop good technique. A slower blade will force you to learn how to use your legs, hips, core rotation, weight transfer TIMED WITH THE WHIP OF the forearm and wrist.

The key part is in capitals. You don't need a lot of force. You just have to pop the timing of legs, hips, weight transfer, core rotation with the whip of the arm and the contact of the ball. When you do this you can make powerful shots very efficiently. It is more about everything being timed and coordinated. Rather than it being brute force. And when you do that, the power comes right from the ground up.

Then the other thing, if you are really spinning the ball, you are not really using the blade so much for speed; you are not even letting the ball compress the sponge enough to touch the wood. Instead you are using the stretch and distortion of the topsheet and how it rebounds, so you are using the rubber; not the blade. And when you do that, a blade that seemed slow, will still produce shots that are quite fast.

That TB ZLF feels really good. I love that blade. I really like the feeling of Zylon without the carbon.

Zylon is a soft material almost like plastic. Really, closer to a polyester. Very similar to Kevlar. They used to make bullet proof vests from Zylon too but they found that after a certain number of years, the material changed and stopped being bullet proof. So, not as good for a bullet proof vest. And, that soft material that has some rebound to it, helps you hold the ball on the blade face and then rebounds to help propel the ball out. Which means you can generate a heck of a lot of spin if you know how to use it.

But on an inner layer, when the composite material is deeper, Zylon without the Carbon is actually a bit of a waste of time. Because when it is alone and deeper, it can't really do what I just described to anywhere near the same extent as it can when it is next to a thin top ply. That is why I said, not to get the IFL ZLF. But I didn't feel like explaining it. Too many words.

So the TB ZLF is amazing for spinning the ball. However, the Koto top ply is hard and I like the soft feel of Limba better. And Zylon, like most composite materials dampens the feeling of the best vibrations from the wood. So the feel of the wood and the ball contact feel muted compared to a good all wood blade. Which is why, that day, which I already described in a previous post, where I tried my friend's all wood blade, I realized how much I missed the feeling of an all wood blade. And how good LIMBA feels to my hand.

I have lots of blades. I have about 20-25 blades. More than enough. I have given a bunch of blades away too. Since I started using the V+ I have not really bothered trying anything else. Nothing is as good, at least not for me.

I name my blades. My Clipper that was 95 grams, (wow was that a beast), was "The Death Stick". The ZLF was "The Wand of Destiny"; I never thought I would switch from that one. (Those are both wands from Harry Potter). :) The black tag Viscaria that I had that I sold to Anno Van Doorn from MyTT (some people will kill me for the fact that I sold a black tag Viscaria for $70.00 but Anno liked the blade and I didn't need it, so I was happy for it to be in the hands of someone who liked it) that blade was really a beast and it was called "Mjolnir", that is the name of Thor's Hammer.

Now, in Harry Potter his wand is a regular old wand. But he likes it. And it works for him. And it has special powers, but only against Voldemort. His wand is made of Holly and Phoenix Feather. In the last book the Holly and Phoenix Feather wand is broken and he needs a new wand. In the end, he ends up with the Death Stick, also known as The Wand of Destiny and also known as The Elder Wand. That is the most powerful wand in history and the true owner of the wand cannot be beaten in a fair wizarding duel. So, Harry ends up with the Death Stick, and decides he doesn't like it. So he uses that most powerful wand to fix his broken Holly and Phoenix Feather wand. And then puts the Death Stick in Dumbledore's tomb. In other words, he chose a wand that was less powerful because he liked it more. :)

So, the Virtuoso Plus is named: "Holly and Phoenix Feather".

Maybe my story there makes why I use the blade make some sense. :) Either that, or I just like telling stories. :)

Nice to know the meaning of upside down.its really interesting. I am curious to know your idea regarding stiga rosewood VII and the best fitted rubber with it as you called stiga clipper as death stick..... What a metaphor. Now expecting your analysis regarding stiga rosewood vii and it's rubbers.

UpSideDownCarl
07-23-2020, 02:38 AM
Nice to know the meaning of upside down.its really interesting. I am curious to know your idea regarding stiga rosewood VII and the best fitted rubber with it as you called stiga clipper as death stick..... What a metaphor. Now expecting your analysis regarding stiga rosewood vii and it's rubbers.

I am of the opinion that any rubber can be used on any blade. That people tend to think certain rubbers go with certain blades because they felt one rubber on a blade and liked it and then felt another rubber on the blade and it felt different than they expected.

But the rubber still does what it does and the blade still does what it does. And if the person was used to the second rubber and then tried the first rubber, they might have the same kind of reaction in reverse.

By the way, the idea of you trying an unboosted Chinese tacky rubber on a blade after having used a Euro/Japanese rubber on the same blade, well that is just going to feel terrible no matter what you do. Being used to the catapult of a springy sponge and then using a rubber whose sponge seems to respond much more like cardboard if you DO NOT boost it, well, that just is not going to cause you to think, "oh boy, this feels nice." For people used to rubbers with springy sponge, Chinese, Hard, Tacky rubber is actually a hard change to make for almost anyone.

However, if you had never used anything but UnBoosted Skyline 3, and then you put unboosted skyline 3 on a Rosewood 7, you might go: "wow, this feels great." :)

I have never tried the Rosewood 7. I like the Rosewood 5. But isn't the 7 kind of heavy? If you like the blade, just put rubbers you like on it. What were you using before?

What made you think you wanted Chinese Tacky rubbers? What made you NOT BOOST rubbers that are designed TO BE BOOSTED?

Nazmul Haque
07-23-2020, 04:19 AM
I am of the opinion that any rubber can be used on any blade. That people tend to think certain rubbers go with certain blades because they felt one rubber on a blade and liked it and then felt another rubber on the blade and it felt different than they expected.

But the rubber still does what it does and the blade still does what it does. And if the person was used to the second rubber and then tried the first rubber, they might have the same kind of reaction in reverse.

By the way, the idea of you trying an unboosted Chinese tacky rubber on a blade after having used a Euro/Japanese rubber on the same blade, well that is just going to feel terrible no matter what you do. Being used to the catapult of a springy sponge and then using a rubber whose sponge seems to respond much more like cardboard if you DO NOT boost it, well, that just is not going to cause you to think, "oh boy, this feels nice." For people used to rubbers with springy sponge, Chinese, Hard, Tacky rubber is actually a hard change to make for almost anyone.

However, if you had never used anything but UnBoosted Skyline 3, and then you put unboosted skyline 3 on a Rosewood 7, you might go: "wow, this feels great." :)

I have never tried the Rosewood 7. I like the Rosewood 5. But isn't the 7 kind of heavy? If you like the blade, just put rubbers you like on it. What were you using before?

What made you think you wanted Chinese Tacky rubbers? What made you NOT BOOST rubbers that are designed TO BE BOOSTED?

Agreed that it was a big mistake to switch from ESN to fake DHS ( May be as purchased from Malaysia).I used Mantra S both side and curious to use Skyline TG3 on forehand and didn't feel to boost it as it was a soft top sheet. I like rosewood 7 for it's great feel in backhand mantra S is okay however I need to set a good rubber on my forehand. Should I go for calibra LT ? Or Baracuda or any good alternative ? Please help.

Konrad Bak
07-23-2020, 10:44 AM
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Nazmul Haque
07-23-2020, 10:56 AM
Calibra is 47-48
Baracuda 45 but for me more like 43-44
Get mantra M 1,9 and you will like it
Thank you Konrad.

Nazmul Haque
07-25-2020, 06:24 PM
I had chance to play with Old
ZLF, ZLF layer, layer ZLC, layer ALC, layer ALC s, Liu shiwen ZLF, Ai fukuhara ZLF.
I dont know what yall want to know.
I really liked layer alc and layer zlf
If you like hard rubbers l alc is better and faster
Layer zlf is better for soft rubbers and its slower.
I always work on setup
Rubbers weight =/= sponge hardness
How is timo ball Zlc?

Konrad Bak
07-25-2020, 06:33 PM
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