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TTHopeful
03-01-2012, 04:21 PM
It is apparent from the video footage below that World Champion Zhang Jike did not shake hands with Ma Long at the end of the match! This is crazy behaviour for my liking! What do you all think?

Discuss...

https://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/forum/images/zhanghand.jpg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXMfvOhf4A8

Full match below thanks to ttCountenance!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk1CoZ7dxg4&feature=g-all&context=G2d9631eFAAAAAAAAGAA

Could this have an impact on Zhang Jike’s future? Would you have him on your team for the Olympics in London?

Camarão®
03-01-2012, 04:26 PM
Out of the Olympics!

pingpongemil
03-01-2012, 04:30 PM
Is it time to bring this up with hugging each other after the game again?
This it not nice, ZJK, Dissapointed!!!!!!!

Anders
03-01-2012, 04:31 PM
Ma Long just shaking his head... Shame Zhang didn't shake hands! He even avoided Ma, didn't look like he was just making a mistake, but did it on purpose :(

Lan
03-01-2012, 04:34 PM
what a poor sportsmanship from that young man!

Choolee
03-01-2012, 04:37 PM
didnt see the full match ... cant judge someone of a cut together vid ... but this will be enough for some ppl to pass judgment on him ( most of the time these ppl tend to think pretty simple )

Reborn
03-01-2012, 04:44 PM
zjk seems to be getting a little too proud. Maybe he is just mad that he didn't get a chance to rip his shirt off again :P

arhabib
03-01-2012, 04:44 PM
ZJK does not have the attitude of a great sportsman but Ma Long is already a legend!

To Choolee: Whatever happened in the match, there cannot be any excuse not to shake hands. This is table tennis not boxing!

Anders
03-01-2012, 06:18 PM
ZJK does not have the attitude of a great sportsman but Ma Long is already a legend!

To Choolee: Whatever happened in the match, there cannot be any excuse not to shake hands. This is table tennis not boxing!

Agree, this is just stupidity from Zhang Jike.. And I kinda liked the guy, but not so much now. I mean, I like his play, but not his person and bad sportsmanship :(

Ma Long took it great tho, he wasn't making a big scene out of it :)

Kevzar
03-01-2012, 06:19 PM
He just got owned 4-0 by Ma Long, I understand that he could be very frustrated because he won most other matches against him, as well as ending his winning streak, and now not winning this match (to show that he can keep winning from Ma all the time). But wow, it feels so awkward to see Ma Long there (probably thinking: wtf?) and ZJK walking away.

Matt Hetherington
03-01-2012, 06:29 PM
didnt see the full match ... cant judge someone of a cut together vid ... but this will be enough for some ppl to pass judgment on him ( most of the time these ppl tend to think pretty simple )

Well this video clearly shows the end of the match without any cut and Zhang walks out of the playing area without shaking Ma Long's hand, it's enough for me to pass judgement on ZJK again it's incredibly poor for an athlete of his level to show such bad sportsmanship, especially to a teammate.

Tinykin
03-01-2012, 07:11 PM
1 Is it because ZJK resented being ordered to lose?
2 Will MaLong use this as reason to teach ZJK a lesson when the world watches the OLy?
3 Who is really the better player?

Stay tuned, Folks, for the unfolding drama in the next enthralling episode of ZJK V MaLong.

sarahherlee
03-01-2012, 09:10 PM
Hey guys, here is a news article from a popular China news website, it talks about the match and also has Zhang explaining why he made that mistake of not shaking Ma Long's hand.

比赛结束的时候,就连张继科自己也陷入到思考之中,这甚至使他忘记了和马龙进行礼节性的握手致意。不过,来到新闻发布厅的时候,继科显然已经走出了比赛的状态,落座之后他非常诚恳的主动对大家说,“刚刚没跟马龙握手,首先在这里我想要澄清一下,我不是有意的,可能还是太投入了在想比赛中的细节吧。” "The end of the game, even Zhang fell into deep thought about what happened in the match, and that even made him forget the courtesy to shake hands. However, came the news conference hall, by then it appared that Zhang was mentally out of the state of the game, taking the seat, he was very sincere and took the first initiative to say, "I did not shake hands with Ma long, first of all I want to explain here, I didn't do that on purpose, I was still be preoccupied with the details of the match.

http://sports.sina.com.cn/o/2012-03-01/21175964150.shtml



张继科盛赞马龙球没的说 主动解释赛后为何没握手 (title of the article: Zhang praised Ma Long's skills - and took the initative to explain why he didn't shake hands)
http://sports.sina.com.cn 2012年03月01日21:17 新浪体育微博

  新浪体育讯 北京时间3月1日消息,2012年乒乓球(微博)亚锦赛在澳门继续进行,马龙收获男子单打冠军。在决赛中他完全压制住队友张继科,以11比9、12比10、12比10、11比5直落四局横扫队友卫冕成功,马龙实现了亚锦赛男单的两连冠。

  本场比赛张继科在前两局曾经占据过一定的领衔优势,但是每当进入到决胜阶段之后,他的发挥就显得不如开局那么出色。尤为值得一提的是第二局,张继科在8比8平之后连续有两次非常好的接发球,这直接帮助他以10比8拿到了两个局点,不过随后他又连丢4分,反被马龙12比10逆转取胜。

  此后马龙显得更加主动,而张继科则相对处在了下风,马龙趁势再胜两局以4比0大胜张继科。半决赛张继科经过跌宕起伏的七局大战4比3击败王皓,气势和信心方面应该说不存在问题,而且在今年年初的公开赛中他还曾经战胜过马龙,终结了马龙半年多不败的恐怖纪录。本场决赛张继科直接以0比4告负,这样的结果或多或少还是让人感觉到一些意外。

  比赛结束的时候,就连张继科自己也陷入到思考之中,这甚至使他忘记了和马龙进行礼节性的握手致意。不过,来到新闻发布厅的时候,继科显然已经走出了比赛的状态,落座之后他非常诚恳的主动对大家说,“刚刚没跟马龙握手,首先在这里我想要澄清一下,我不是有意的,可能还是太投入了在想比赛中的细节吧。” "The end of the game, even Zhang fell into deep thought about what happened in the match, and that even made him forget the courtesy to shake hands. However, came the news conference hall, by then it appared that Zhang was mentally out of the state of the game, taking the seat, he was very sincere and took the first initiative to say, "I did not shake hands with Ma long, first of all I want to explain here, I didn't do that on purpose, I was still be preoccupied with the details of the match.

  谈到本场比赛大比分失利的原因,张继科总结说,“前两局有机会没拿下来,关键的战机球没把握好,都是在领先的情况下输的,第三局在落后的情况下又是咬到了10比10然后输,三局球都是输两分,自己心态受到一定影响,产生了一定的波动吧。”

  马龙继续着火爆的发挥,而在谈到这位大半年来风头极其强劲的队友时,张继科也是不吝溢美之词,“马龙技术非常全面,作为世界排名第一的选手,我认为他的球没的说。我认为跟他比赛非常有意思,双方能较上劲儿,无论输赢都能总结出一定的东西,所以很期待下次再跟他比赛。”张继科说。

  谈到下午与王皓的半决赛,张继科表示比赛打得一波三折,自己和王皓在拉锯战中好几次错进错出,张继科说:“我大分打到3比1领先,第五局10比8领先但没拿下来,反而是第七局7比10落后之后连得5分获胜了。我觉得我和王皓犯了同样的错误,领先之后有点着急。”不过,在被问到半决赛的消耗是否影响了自己决赛的发挥时,张继科并不想为自己找借口,“我认为还好吧,体力不是最大的问题。”

Wilco
03-01-2012, 09:20 PM
???
1 Is it because ZJK resented being ordered to lose?

???

Ohhh myyy, nonononono, WHAT THE F, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

If I was referee of this match I would give ZJ RED CARD,
GET THE F OUT!

PlasmaLight
03-01-2012, 10:20 PM
i would say the same **** :D ups i forgot about it ... of course ... liar

Wilco
03-01-2012, 10:26 PM
At 4-2 and then 5-2 ZJ putted his bat on the table kinda angry.
ZJ took time out after that. ZJ could get there yellow card but he got away with it.
But this after the match is a DEEP RED CARD,
how about a BAN FOR AT LEAST 1 YEAR ITTF?
Here in Holland we get money punishments from the NTTB for
things like putting wrong date, match date wrong and so on...
So what is the ITTF gonna do with this? Hmmm....

Matt Hetherington
03-01-2012, 11:00 PM
You can't red card someone for not shaking hands, that's a bit absurd. It's poor sportsmanship but it's not outside the rules of the sport.

Either way I think he's lying, as I said on the other thread, learning to shake hands after a match is as robotically built in to each player as ZJK's technique is, you don't 'forget' to shake hands no matter what you are thinking.

Wilco
03-01-2012, 11:29 PM
If I was the referee that match then ZJ would get a DEEP RED CARD,
and if ITTF dont like then they can ban me haha.
Referee decide what ZJ action was worth, but he did nothing.
In soccer and other sports referee judge win his own opinion,
not only by written rules, thats why there will be never be a robot referee
in soccer hehe.
Ohhh myyy I hope that all those innocent children who likes tt
not gonna see this. Parents keep innocent children away from ZJ!

Dan
03-01-2012, 11:47 PM
1 Is it because ZJK resented being ordered to lose?
2 Will MaLong use this as reason to teach ZJK a lesson when the world watches the OLy?
3 Who is really the better player?

Stay tuned, Folks, for the unfolding drama in the next enthralling episode of ZJK V MaLong.

Intersting Mark. I believe it has been known for Chinese players ordered to lose on purpose before. Perhaps this was the case and Zhang Jike was not happy with the decision?


The end of the game, even Zhang fell into deep thought about what happened in the match, and that even made him forget the courtesy to shake hands. However, came the news conference hall, by then it appared that Zhang was mentally out of the state of the game, taking the seat, he was very sincere and took the first initiative to say, "I did not shake hands with Ma long, first of all I want to explain here, I didn't do that on purpose, I was still be preoccupied with the details of the match.


Thanks for this article Sarah! :)

Interesting what Zhang Jike is saying.. It didn't even look like Zhang Jike was focussed in the last points to try and win. Everything was quiet and it was all set for Ma Long to win. I am sure, he new exactly what he was doing. I don't think I have ever seen a player avoid shaking hands with someone. Maybe, he wants to win so bad that he is disheartened that Ma Long had beat him. I dunno just strange, because he must know how millions are watching him. Will be interesting to see what Liu Guoliang posts about this. Please keep us posted :)

ttmonster
03-02-2012, 01:26 AM
Everything said and done, I believe when somebody is so passionate about the game he or she can cross the line in a moment of fury ( which I believe to be true , ZJK was madly angry with himself because he was completely outplayed ) . I believe everybody at some point in time has been guilty of this.
Especially, in case of persons who grow up into professionals , they have so less time and focus outside the sports it becomes the be all and end all. Take the case of Federer, he was bratty when he was growing into the legend he is now.
Its more important to see if ZJK learns from this and makes sure he does not repeat this. But come on, we have seen much worse behavior from other people.

sidthelefty
03-02-2012, 01:28 AM
u guys are overreacting even more than zj himself lol first of all even if players shake hands these days they just slap hands not shake so its not a big deal....most players slap hands nowadays...i dont though but u cant froce someone to shake ur hand...it shldnt be a rule...i ment if ppl had sportsmanship theyd shake hands firmly... so dont judge zk like that...and btw i wanted zhang jike to win because ma long beat xu xin 4-0 too and xu xin is the better of 3 of them....i think zk deserves o go to olympics becuz he improved aloooot from where he was before wttc...i never liked zj but when ppl talk abt a top lvl player like that it pisses me off...do u guys no what its like to train that hard and lose like that? these guys train like beasts......no offence to anyone but dont judge him like he cant make misakes....i know he acts a bit arrogant but ppl can change ...and no im not just sayin this cuz i hate ma long....i actually admire him alot and incorporate some of his techniques in my training....all in all dont make it a bigger deal than it already is...its either players shake hands firmly if they want or not at all ...i hate those dead slaps....

sidthelefty
03-02-2012, 01:30 AM
shaking hands shouldnt be compulsory...ppl shld do it cuz they have sportmanship

sidthelefty
03-02-2012, 01:32 AM
i agree with ttmonster

GDP
03-02-2012, 02:51 AM
Not shaking hands even when you get your a.. kicked demonstrates bad sportsmanship and a bad attitude in general. Hard to imagine this will sit well with CNT. No way he dumped the match. He got dumped by the best player in the world at the moment and he's pissed. Expect a corrective interview at the very least by Liu Guoliang.

WiWa
03-02-2012, 06:00 AM
Diplomatic response from Zhang, probably forced by the CNT staff. If there were another reason for it and he'd mention it, there would be a bigger riot, which helps nobody. Besides, in Asia handshaking doesn't have the value it has in Europe. It could even be possible that he thought 'okay, Asian championships, Chinese final, forget about European habits' :p

And Wilco, please calm down xD I think it is good that you are not an umpire haha, 'I don't like your attitude' is not a valid reason to give a red card :D Ma Long should have had a yellow for time-wasting at 9-5 in the 4th. That would be acceptable.

nabilatouni
03-02-2012, 07:57 AM
I just don't want to give my opinion cause I don't know the real reason of all that story. I don't want to blame Zhang Jike, he loses several big match (against Ma Long) and he was always doing the shakehand... Maybe he did that on purpose maybe not, who knows?

But I like Ma Long's reaction, he was like 'What the heck...I think he forgot to do something...' XD

Bai
03-02-2012, 08:44 AM
In China this topic (refuse shaking hand) was frequently discussed, most people think zhang jike is an unpolitly person.
Zhang jike knows how to make a good public relation, so he pologise to Ma lon for not shaking hand, otherwize he will be punished.May be missed London.
Ma long answered Together means make efforts together, its just a politely reply. What could he say?

harrybelafonte
03-02-2012, 10:05 AM
This is sport, not everyone gets on, even in the same team..its generating more publicity fo tt,,,, more please,,,,get the sport high profile....not as if he spat in his face or had a mass brawl.... Can ma win the olympics or will a seething zhang win 10 in the 7th ,,, would nt bet against it...

UpSideDownCarl
03-02-2012, 10:44 AM
I have to be honest, I personally think you guys are making a big deal out of this. You just cannot tell what is going on inside someone after a loss like that. Look at the scores. The first game is 11-9, the second and third games are both 12-10. If I lost 3 games in a match that were that close I would probably be pretty upset. I might be upset that I messed up and could not even pull one of those 3 games out.

In the first game Zhang Jike was up 9-8 and lost 11-9. In the second game he was up 10-8 and lost 12-10. In the third game, down 11-10 he went for a flip on a serve that he obviously did not read right and it went straight into the net. My money says he thought he should have won the first two and that he messed up and gave Ma Long the third game with bad serve and a bad return of serve when the game was on the line.

Who ever thought this was a blowout should watch the match. And Zhang Jike probably felt that he should have won both of the first two games; and he really should have been able to pull out both. Nothing against Ma Long. He played great and came up big when he needed to. But Zhang Jike had to be upset with HIMSELF at how he played 2 game points and a spot where he was up 9-8. So knowing his background and how infrequently he wins against Ma Long, he must have been upset and upset in a way that most of you are not understanding. In the 4th game, when Ma Long was up 4-2 they had an intense rally where Zhang Jike had Ma Long backed up and on defense, and Zhang Jike blows the point, it is a rally he really should have been able to win, after the point he flips his racket onto the table in disgust and for the rest of the match he looks like he is elsewhere; he is not playing like the same player. At 9-5 and 10-5 he looks like he is just not even really playing any more. He looks mentally broken and out of it. So I say, who cares if he shakes Ma Long's hand.

Hey, most of you guys who are complaining that he did not shake Ma Long's hand are not emotionally imbalanced so you probably have no idea what the range of things he might have been feeling through that 4th game and after the match. But I am betting that he was upset to a point that most of you cannot understand.

WiWa
03-02-2012, 10:58 AM
I agree with Carl. Also not shaking someones hand is not as bad as stealing points or not apologizing for lucky balls for example. But about these things people don't make as big a problem as not shaking someones hand.
Besides, it is possible that he really just forgot it. You can't just rule that out, although it is unlikely. However, after the WTTC final he won, he shook one umpires hand twice. I don't think that was on purpose :p But if he forgot he shook her hand, it is also possible that he would think he shook someones hand while he didn't.

Anders
03-02-2012, 12:28 PM
I have to be honest, I personally think you guys are making a big deal out of this. You just cannot tell what is going on inside someone after a loss like that. Look at the scores. The first game is 11-9, the second and third games are both 12-10. If I lost 3 games in a match that were that close I would probably be pretty upset. I might be upset that I messed up and could not even pull one of those 3 games out.

In the first game Zhang Jike was up 9-8 and lost 11-9. In the second game he was up 10-8 and lost 12-10. In the third game, down 11-10 he went for a flip on a serve that he obviously did not read right and it went straight into the net. My money says he thought he should have won the first two and that he messed up and gave Ma Long the third game with bad serve and a bad return of serve when the game was on the line.

Who ever thought this was a blowout should watch the match. And Zhang Jike probably felt that he should have won both of the first two games; and he really should have been able to pull out both. Nothing against Ma Long. He played great and came up big when he needed to. But Zhang Jike had to be upset with HIMSELF at how he played 2 game points and a spot where he was up 9-8. So knowing his background and how infrequently he wins against Ma Long, he must have been upset and upset in a way that most of you are not understanding. In the 4th game, when Ma Long was up 4-2 they had an intense rally where Zhang Jike had Ma Long backed up and on defense, and Zhang Jike blows the point, it is a rally he really should have been able to win, after the point he flips his racket onto the table in disgust and for the rest of the match he looks like he is elsewhere; he is not playing like the same player. At 9-5 and 10-5 he looks like he is just not even really playing any more. He looks mentally broken and out of it. So I say, who cares if he shakes Ma Long's hand.

Hey, most of you guys who are complaining that he did not shake Ma Long's hand are not emotionally imbalanced so you probably have no idea what the range of things he might have been feeling through that 4th game and after the match. But I am betting that he was upset to a point that most of you cannot understand.

To some point I agree with you Carl, but no matter how upset you are, there is no excuse for not shaking hands in the tradition of good sportsmanship. I know TT is alle he's got in life, but then he should pay some respect. He might not be a bad person, but it wasn't good to not shake Ma Longs hand for sure.

UpSideDownCarl
03-02-2012, 12:56 PM
To some point I agree with you Carl, but no matter how upset you are, there is no excuse for not shaking hands in the tradition of good sportsmanship. I know TT is alle he's got in life, but then he should pay some respect. He might not be a bad person, but it wasn't good to not shake Ma Longs hand for sure.

Hey, Anders, I respect your opinion and I know that there are so many people on this forum who agree with you that a handshake after a match is important. I just don't see that it is. I think it is a formality that is too rigid. I personally feel that the person who won the match probably does not care either way because he won. I have never felt like I did not want to shake the hand of someone who I just won a match from. And, in my opinion, if you have to shake hands after a match no matter what, it does not mean anything; it is just a formality. So, I feel, rather than having it be some compulsory act that then loses its meaning, the person who lost should actually be the one who decides whether to do it, and then, you would see some handshakes that really meant something.

There are times when I have lost a match where I didn't feel like there is a need or a point in giving the other person a handshake. And it might not have anything to do with the opponent. There are times when I don't want to shake the other person's hand and it definitely has to do with the opponent or something he did in the match. And there are times where I want to shake the other person's hand because they played great and I want to let them know I feel that way. In only one of those circumstances, the last one, would the handshake actually have real meaning.

So why should it be compulsory.

But every so often you see someone who is so upset that they lose touch with where they are and what they are doing. Not to be sexist or anything but I see this happen with women more often than with men. I think this is may be because for women it is more socially acceptable for them to be in touch with their feelings and express those kinds of emotions. I think, for men, often crying or being upset is really looked down upon and as a result most men, when they are feeling any other negative emotion, it ends up expressing itself as anger instead of the actual underlying emotion. That is often what happens when you try to suppress a heavy, negative emotion: it comes out as anger. But every so often you see someone, or have to deal with someone, who is so upset that they are not grounded and not in touch with where they are.

If that is what is going on inside someone, I don't think they need to shake my hand after a match. I am sorry but I think the hand shake thing is way out of proportion to so many TT fans. After a basketball game, some of the guys from one team and the other shake each other's hands. Not always. Sometimes they just head to the locker rooms. After a baseball game it is rare that the two teams greet each other at all. After an American football game, sometimes the head coaches shake each other's hands, not always; sometimes some of the players greet some of the guys on the other team who they know and like, not always.

Why should it be mandatory in Table Tennis. I really don't get the idea of repeating what sometimes comes out as a hollow gesture. I think a handshake should happen when it is felt by both players, and therefore conveys actual affection and acknowledgement of an achievement from the defeated player to the victor. I actually, personally think that it shows less respect to shake someone's hand when you don't mean it, than to choose not to shake the other person's hand.

harrybelafonte
03-02-2012, 01:42 PM
I think its publicity for the sport, Zhang seems to be the bad boy at the min...most tt on eurosport shows zhang ripping of his shirt,,, people moaned about that ,but it is now the iconic shot from the worlds ,probably the most played tt photo,video in the last few years, now the non handshake....he definately stirs it up... excellent....
Remeber Connors Mcenroe going at it many times,,, all good for the sport ...more please..

GabrielK
03-02-2012, 01:51 PM
In the past, Liu Guoliang had mentioned that Zhang Jike has disciplinary issues, for example he had no respect for his coach. If this was a one-off incident, I guess that many would have dismissed it as a rash action. But, taking into account his past actions, he did himself no favours for the upcoming Olympics. I think he should learn to have respect for others including his teammates.

harrybelafonte
03-02-2012, 01:55 PM
Now the chinese have a taste of individuality, let them get on with it... they ve been chucking matches for years,, is that not poor sportsmanship???
We need some controversy or we ll just be another minority sport...

Abakus
03-02-2012, 02:11 PM
I have to be honest, I personally think you guys are making a big deal out of this. You just cannot tell what is going on inside someone after a loss like that. Look at the scores. The first game is 11-9, the second and third games are both 12-10. If I lost 3 games in a match that were that close I would probably be pretty upset. I might be upset that I messed up and could not even pull one of those 3 games out.

In the first game Zhang Jike was up 9-8 and lost 11-9. In the second game he was up 10-8 and lost 12-10. In the third game, down 11-10 he went for a flip on a serve that he obviously did not read right and it went straight into the net. My money says he thought he should have won the first two and that he messed up and gave Ma Long the third game with bad serve and a bad return of serve when the game was on the line.

Who ever thought this was a blowout should watch the match. And Zhang Jike probably felt that he should have won both of the first two games; and he really should have been able to pull out both. Nothing against Ma Long. He played great and came up big when he needed to. But Zhang Jike had to be upset with HIMSELF at how he played 2 game points and a spot where he was up 9-8. So knowing his background and how infrequently he wins against Ma Long, he must have been upset and upset in a way that most of you are not understanding. In the 4th game, when Ma Long was up 4-2 they had an intense rally where Zhang Jike had Ma Long backed up and on defense, and Zhang Jike blows the point, it is a rally he really should have been able to win, after the point he flips his racket onto the table in disgust and for the rest of the match he looks like he is elsewhere; he is not playing like the same player. At 9-5 and 10-5 he looks like he is just not even really playing any more. He looks mentally broken and out of it. So I say, who cares if he shakes Ma Long's hand.

Hey, most of you guys who are complaining that he did not shake Ma Long's hand are not emotionally imbalanced so you probably have no idea what the range of things he might have been feeling through that 4th game and after the match. But I am betting that he was upset to a point that most of you cannot understand.

I agree with that. Nobody else than ZJK himself knows everthing what he is really thinking. I think I can call it a fact, that ZJK was upset after the match. And if you are upset you usually think like "Which faults did I make?" or "Why didn't I do this and that" (me at least) and so I find it quite possible that he forgot shaking Ma Long's hand, because he thinks he has already shaken.

We in Germany usually shake hands after a match and say "Well played" (or sth like this) to each other. It shows that you have respect of your opponent (doesn't matter how good you and your opponent are) even if you lost.

I find it is not rude when you really forgot shaking hands, but the spectators just see the fact that someone is not shaking the other's hands, nothing more. So they might interpretate it as "rude" because for the most of them shaking hands means respect to each other. But if someone avoid shaking hands on purpose (I have already seen this behaviour), I find it rude and somehow against the rules, which says that you have to present yourself well as a sportsman.

WiWa
03-02-2012, 03:02 PM
I agree with u Abakus apart from the last part. I don't see how it is against any rule. Also I find it weird that some people think that this influences his chances for the Olympics. The CNT at the moment are very aware of the need for more globabl attention that TT has. It is good to be the best in a sport, but not if nobody other than yourself pays attention to it. In terms of drawing attention, Zhang Jike is by miles the best candidate to represent China and carry out our sport. He is a colorful character, and the sport needs those. Some have it, some don't. If being a colorful character would be a reason to kick you off the team, table tennis will remain unnoticed forever.

ttmonster
03-02-2012, 03:23 PM
Now the chinese have a taste of individuality, let them get on with it... they ve been chucking matches for years,, is that not poor sportsmanship???
We need some controversy or we ll just be another minority sport...

You got this one wrong, the chinese players were forced to chuck matches by the authorities , I have first hand information on this one. In 70's players like Zhang Li and others were forced to chuck matches to North Korean players etc. But that you cannot blame on the player's sportsmanship.

harrybelafonte
03-02-2012, 03:24 PM
Well said sir!

I agree with u Abakus apart from the last part. I don't see how it is against any rule. Also I find it weird that some people think that this influences his chances for the Olympics. The CNT at the moment are very aware of the need for more globabl attention that TT has. It is good to be the best in a sport, but not if nobody other than yourself pays attention to it. In terms of drawing attention, Zhang Jike is by miles the best candidate to represent China and carry out our sport. He is a colorful character, and the sport needs those. Some have it, some don't. If being a colorful character would be a reason to kick you off the team, table tennis will remain unnoticed forever.

Abakus
03-02-2012, 03:44 PM
I didn't mean it's against the rule, that's why I said "somehow". You can still respect someone without shaking hands, but because this "shaking hands-ritual" became a sign of respect (for me at least), it comes rude to me. So, as long as someone doesn't really show his disrespect (e.g. by using swearwords), everything is alright in my point of view.

WiWa
03-02-2012, 03:51 PM
I didn't mean it's against the rule, that's why I said "somehow". You can still respect someone without shaking hands, but because this "shaking hands-ritual" became a sign of respect (for me at least), it comes rude to me. So, as long as someone doesn't really show his disrespect (e.g. by using swearwords), everything is alright in my point of view.

I understand. But as said, handshaking maybe doesn't have the value to them that it has to us. Would Asians think Boll is rude if he doesn't give a diplomacy point? I think it is a bit of a grey area. Because we are all so used to handshaking, it upsets us if somebody doesn't do it. But like Carl explained, the robotic handshake isn't really a sign of respect either, especially the way the CNT members usually do this. And they don't do the 'lame no-look handshake' out of disrespect. They do the same to their coaches after a match, and teammates after a team match. It is all just not as excessive as Europeans tend to do, but that doesn't make them worse than others in terms of being respectful.

So in the end the discussion is more about breaking a habit of handshaking than showing disrespect by not giving a handshake, since handshaking doesn't really show respect in much occasions anyway.

UpSideDownCarl
03-02-2012, 06:34 PM
I understand. But as said, handshaking maybe doesn't have the value to them that it has to us. Would Asians think Boll is rude if he doesn't give a diplomacy point? I think it is a bit of a grey area. Because we are all so used to handshaking, it upsets us if somebody doesn't do it. But like Carl explained, the robotic handshake isn't really a sign of respect either, especially the way the CNT members usually do this. And they don't do the 'lame no-look handshake' out of disrespect. They do the same to their coaches after a match, and teammates after a team match. It is all just not as excessive as Europeans tend to do, but that doesn't make them worse than others in terms of being respectful.

So in the end the discussion is more about breaking a habit of handshaking than showing disrespect by not giving a handshake, since handshaking doesn't really show respect in much occasions anyway.

Well said. Great post Wiwa.

WiWa
03-02-2012, 06:44 PM
Well said sir!


Well said. Great post Wiwa.

Thanks guys :)

Anders
03-02-2012, 09:54 PM
Hey, Anders, I respect your opinion and I know that there are so many people on this forum who agree with you that a handshake after a match is important. I just don't see that it is. I think it is a formality that is too rigid. I personally feel that the person who won the match probably does not care either way because he won. I have never felt like I did not want to shake the hand of someone who I just won a match from. And, in my opinion, if you have to shake hands after a match no matter what, it does not mean anything; it is just a formality. So, I feel, rather than having it be some compulsory act that then loses its meaning, the person who lost should actually be the one who decides whether to do it, and then, you would see some handshakes that really meant something.

There are times when I have lost a match where I didn't feel like there is a need or a point in giving the other person a handshake. And it might not have anything to do with the opponent. There are times when I don't want to shake the other person's hand and it definitely has to do with the opponent or something he did in the match. And there are times where I want to shake the other person's hand because they played great and I want to let them know I feel that way. In only one of those circumstances, the last one, would the handshake actually have real meaning.

So why should it be compulsory.

But every so often you see someone who is so upset that they lose touch with where they are and what they are doing. Not to be sexist or anything but I see this happen with women more often than with men. I think this is may be because for women it is more socially acceptable for them to be in touch with their feelings and express those kinds of emotions. I think, for men, often crying or being upset is really looked down upon and as a result most men, when they are feeling any other negative emotion, it ends up expressing itself as anger instead of the actual underlying emotion. That is often what happens when you try to suppress a heavy, negative emotion: it comes out as anger. But every so often you see someone, or have to deal with someone, who is so upset that they are not grounded and not in touch with where they are.

If that is what is going on inside someone, I don't think they need to shake my hand after a match. I am sorry but I think the hand shake thing is way out of proportion to so many TT fans. After a basketball game, some of the guys from one team and the other shake each other's hands. Not always. Sometimes they just head to the locker rooms. After a baseball game it is rare that the two teams greet each other at all. After an American football game, sometimes the head coaches shake each other's hands, not always; sometimes some of the players greet some of the guys on the other team who they know and like, not always.

Why should it be mandatory in Table Tennis. I really don't get the idea of repeating what sometimes comes out as a hollow gesture. I think a handshake should happen when it is felt by both players, and therefore conveys actual affection and acknowledgement of an achievement from the defeated player to the victor. I actually, personally think that it shows less respect to shake someone's hand when you don't mean it, than to choose not to shake the other person's hand.

Carl, as a friend and a fellow forumer, I respect your posts. But I simply just can't agree with you on this issue. And I am NOT saying this as a TT-Fan as you intended, but as a player. I play national and regional tournaments at least 2 times per month, and I practise hard every day both on my physical skills and on my TT-skills. I understand Zhang Jike that he might have been mentally in another world. But he still has to show Ma Long some respect by shaking hands with him. Or at least show the world that he has respect for Ma Long, it is a sign of good sportsmanship.

I get what your saying, and it isn't nonsense, I think your'e a smart person. But I can't agree with you and I am sorry for that. The handshake is important to show personal mental strength and to show the other player the respect of the game. You don't have to say anything to him, just shake his hand and thats it.

That is my opinion, and I hope you get what I mean. Even if you don't agree :)

ziggy
03-02-2012, 10:01 PM
Everything said and done, I believe when somebody is so passionate about the game he or she can cross the line in a moment of fury ( which I believe to be true , ZJK was madly angry with himself because he was completely outplayed ) . I believe everybody at some point in time has been guilty of this.
Especially, in case of persons who grow up into professionals , they have so less time and focus outside the sports it becomes the be all and end all. Take the case of Federer, he was bratty when he was growing into the legend he is now.
Its more important to see if ZJK learns from this and makes sure he does not repeat this. But come on, we have seen much worse behavior from other people.

Well said mate; he's young and he will regret it no doubt, the trouble is he has a history of doing this. Hopefully he will grow up and start acting like a man. If these two players keep trying hard they will take this game stratospheric. All praise to China and bring on the Olympics!

judah000
03-03-2012, 01:33 AM
What a DISRESPECT!!!!!!!!!!!!

UpSideDownCarl
03-03-2012, 01:43 AM
Carl, as a friend and a fellow forumer, I respect your posts. But I simply just can't agree with you on this issue. And I am NOT saying this as a TT-Fan as you intended, but as a player. I play national and regional tournaments at least 2 times per month, and I practise hard every day both on my physical skills and on my TT-skills. I understand Zhang Jike that he might have been mentally in another world. But he still has to show Ma Long some respect by shaking hands with him. Or at least show the world that he has respect for Ma Long, it is a sign of good sportsmanship.

I get what your saying, and it isn't nonsense, I think your'e a smart person. But I can't agree with you and I am sorry for that. The handshake is important to show personal mental strength and to show the other player the respect of the game. You don't have to say anything to him, just shake his hand and thats it.

That is my opinion, and I hope you get what I mean. Even if you don't agree :)

Fair enough. I can respect how you feel and we can feel differently. :) You are one of the people on the forum whose opinions I value and appreciate and I am confident that, in your participation in the sport, you have your reasons for this opinion.

poltery
03-03-2012, 05:27 AM
ths is the bitter sirde of Zhang....

judah000
03-03-2012, 05:43 AM
Well, for some reasons shakehanding is already like a ritual and no heart. I think it is better not to shakehands than shakehands with angry heart behind :)

TableOhTennis
03-03-2012, 06:18 AM
I agree with the people saying "You guys are making a big deal out of this."

It's true. This issue is something really small actually.
Oh yeah, he was seriously affected with that loss he forgot to shake hands. He clarified that already, he even apologized to Ma Long publicly now but of course it has a different take on the fans.. Anyway, we all know they're all very close to each other like brothers so it doesn't really make a lot of difference to them, they're gonna be all good afterwards, no hard feelings, but to the people and the critics, there will be. Too bad on Zhang but honestly, go inside the athlete's head, i mean, to them, it doesn't really matter what people might say. They're just focused on the game and the training. People, this is the sports world. Yeah, so it doesn't really make a lot of difference. Liu Guoliang might be saying something like "Who cares about who shakes or doesn't shake hands, go back to training, all of you!"

WiWa
03-03-2012, 06:38 AM
Good point ToT, I don't think Ma Long himself will feel offended at all. He knows that ZJK is a friend of his, and that he can act weird sometimes :p

UpSideDownCarl
03-03-2012, 11:19 AM
And I don't think Zhang Jike was showing disrespect as some of you seem to feel. I think he was not paying attention to anything around him after the match. In that interview he had no problems saying how well Ma Long was playing. He had no problem giving Ma Long respect after the match in a different context.

I do think it is strange when people think that a custom they think shows respect is something that everyone else has to feel shows respect. To some people shaking hands after a match seems to be a sign of showing respect. To me, I see it as something that is often a hollow ritual. I don't see it as always showing respect. I feel like I have seen some disrespectful handshakes. I would rather the players show respect for each other in what ever way they do, without me having to impose my ritual for showing respect on everyone else.

Ma Long did appear to expect a handshake. But he did not seem truly fussed about the situation.

In some cultures a common greeting and sign of respect is to bow to each other on meeting or departing. In some cultures giving this fake kiss on each cheek where you don't actually touch the person with your lips is a common greeting and parting. If I somehow thought that this was a sign of respect and wanted everyone to kiss on each cheek after every match because I thought it was a sign of respect, and someone else did not do it and thought it was stupid, dorky and creepy and that kissing on the cheek did not show respect, and therefore didn't do it, I do think it would be a bit strange for people to be up in arms because a player did not show his opponent the proper respect by kissing him on the cheek the way they thought the player should.

Cultural values are not universal and to try and impose them as though they are is a little much in my opinion.

And again, in this instance, I don't think Zhang Jike was fully present at the end of that match. So I don't think he skipped the silly kiss on the cheek (the handshake) because he was trying to be disrespectful to Ma Long. If that was the case, it might not be cool. But I don't think it was the case. And if it was the case I don't think he would have been as comfortable showing respect to Ma Long after the match by saying how well he played.

So if the issue is showing respect, Zhang Jike did that in his own way at some point after the match was over. And he did explain why the handshake never happened at the end of the match.

Matt Hetherington
03-03-2012, 12:19 PM
Carl, as a friend and a fellow forumer, I respect your posts. But I simply just can't agree with you on this issue. And I am NOT saying this as a TT-Fan as you intended, but as a player. I play national and regional tournaments at least 2 times per month, and I practise hard every day both on my physical skills and on my TT-skills. I understand Zhang Jike that he might have been mentally in another world. But he still has to show Ma Long some respect by shaking hands with him. Or at least show the world that he has respect for Ma Long, it is a sign of good sportsmanship.

I get what your saying, and it isn't nonsense, I think your'e a smart person. But I can't agree with you and I am sorry for that. The handshake is important to show personal mental strength and to show the other player the respect of the game. You don't have to say anything to him, just shake his hand and thats it.

That is my opinion, and I hope you get what I mean. Even if you don't agree :)

I'm with Anders. Even if handshaking didn't mean that much, NOT handshaking is poor and disrespectful.

harrybelafonte
03-03-2012, 01:55 PM
He has apologised ,good talking point and publicity ......lots.... lets move on....

Mr. RicharD
03-03-2012, 05:47 PM
Personally is it bad sportsmanship? Yes absolutely. Is it reason to pass judgment on a high class player? No. We don't know what's going on in the guy's mind what may be distracting him or even how much this will affect his chances of going to the Olympics. Let's be honest. If you just won the World Championships and World Cup and you just needed the Olympics to secure your place in history, you'd have a lot going through your mind. He's got a lot of pressure on him to do well even more than Ma Long because Ma Long has a ways to go before he's getting his Grand Slam. Zhang Ji Ke has a ton of weight on his shoulders and he may see his dream slip through his fingers. Most of the players who've won their Grand Slams did it young in their careers. He'll be pushing 26-27 at his next Olympics chance if he's not able to play this year. So no I won't be passing judgment on the guy.

ttmonster
03-03-2012, 08:17 PM
Could not agree with you more on this one Richard. We all know, getting all worked up is the only way Zhang Jike knows to bring out the best in himself, and he got caught up in the moment . And as Carl said , its bad when you are losing 12-10 , 11-9 , 11-9 ... etc . And he did apologise publicly , how many times have you seen pro players do that? Did Serena Williams apologise unconditionally for the Line Judge incident or MCnroe for his countless antics for that matter ?
I am not supporting the behavior , but I think overall you need to understand that he was in a super high pressure situation , and losing to the same guy in the finals over and over again brings out the worst in people .. remember Federer cry in Australian Open ? Not every man can do that and get away with it. I bet we would have started trashing him if he broke down in tears; also imagine the psychological boost Ma Long would have got in that case.
So over all , I personally think, yes he did wrong and apologized and that should be the end of it , unless he keeps repeating this. I have seen Peter Korbel behave far worse with the umpires ( irrespective of whether he had a point or not ) and not apologize for it, and I am sure there have been other incidents which are worse.


Personally is it bad sportsmanship? Yes absolutely. Is it reason to pass judgment on a high class player? No. We don't know what's going on in the guy's mind what may be distracting him or even how much this will affect his chances of going to the Olympics. Let's be honest. If you just won the World Championships and World Cup and you just needed the Olympics to secure your place in history, you'd have a lot going through your mind. He's got a lot of pressure on him to do well even more than Ma Long because Ma Long has a ways to go before he's getting his Grand Slam. Zhang Ji Ke has a ton of weight on his shoulders and he may see his dream slip through his fingers. Most of the players who've won their Grand Slams did it young in their careers. He'll be pushing 26-27 at his next Olympics chance if he's not able to play this year. So no I won't be passing judgment on the guy.

UpSideDownCarl
03-04-2012, 07:41 PM
I'm with Anders. Even if handshaking didn't mean that much, NOT handshaking is poor and disrespectful.

You know what, Matt, I really respect both Anders and you so I am going to concede that you have a real point. I don't play at that level but I know it has been turned into a real tradition so I know I would follow the tradition and do the prescribed thing.

I just really don't know ZJK was fully cognizant of what was going on. He did not shake anyone's hand. Not the judges. They do that too.

He was up 9-8 in the first and lost 11-9; he was up 10-8 in the second and lost 12-10; in the third @ deuce he dealt an easy serve and then misread Ma Long's serve at 11-10 and put it into the net. I am betting he thought he should have been able to pull out one of those games. Then in the 4th he was down 4-2 and he backed Ma Long up and had him on defense and blew the point. From then on it is not the same ZJK. He does not appear to be fully on the court.

Now with someone who is fully sane I still might say, "so what." But you have to admit, ZJK is not fully sane. I am not sure what that entails but I am willing to cut him some slack. I personally don't think he meant to disrespect anyone and I think his apology after and his complementing Ma Long on how well he is playing make me think something internal was going on for him that most of us might not be able to understand.

Now I have seen ZJK do some things that were not all that cool. I just am not sure he was all there at the end of this match. Therefore, I am willing to cut him some slack. But I get that at that level of play it has been established as what you should do at the end of a match.

azlan
03-06-2012, 08:02 AM
I saw the entire match live on the telly, and I was really shocked. Pre occupied assessing his match or doing it on purpose, or just too annoyed with himself, a player must always shake the hands of his opponents. ZJK will not be great without his great opponents, and same goes to Ma Long, and to all of us too. Rugby players shake hands after kicking, hitting, punching etc etc their opponents.

I have never seen such acts from a top pro. I thought ZJK would walk over to Ma Long's corner to shake his hands, but he never did. Imagine Federer just walking over to his seat after losing a match.:)

Anders123
03-23-2012, 07:31 PM
I must say that i agree with both you Anders and you Carl.

I can see that ZJK must have been dissapointed after loosing this match because he really had his chances. And the handshake probably doesn't mean as much to them as it does to us. So i don't think that Ma Long was offended by it. But i do think that ZJK on purpose didn't do it. When we look as his history we have seen him done some wierd things, and this is probably one of them. I could never imagine myself not shaking hands after a match, because as you say Carl it is a ritual.

That ZJK have been apologizing later is probably, something he has been told to do. These superstars must have some guys who helps them to confront the press, and give them a good image. So i guess that it would have been best if ZJK had shaken Ma Longs hand, maybe not because it means a lot to Ma Long or ZJK but it means something for everybody and especially the younger ones (me) watching the sport on the television. Because many of the childrens will sit and watch their favorite player, and they will see that the top players shows some respect to the opponent and to the game.

Michal_Z
11-19-2014, 03:32 PM
At this year's Swedish open, when Fang Bo won against Tang Peng, they didn't shake hands either.
No big deal. They both just avoided each other, went to all umpires to shake hands and that's all :)
And no big topic about it.. no big deal .. lol ..

Tommy4493
11-19-2014, 05:13 PM
he was just too emotional, it can be tolerated

Tommy4493
11-19-2014, 05:18 PM
At this year's Swedish open, when Fang Bo won against Tang Peng, they didn't shake hands either.
No big deal. They both just avoided each other, went to all umpires to shake hands and that's all :)
And no big topic about it.. no big deal .. lol ..
I dont recognize this until i read your comment. Don't they like each other ? lol

mahomedy13
11-19-2014, 06:14 PM
i think people make a big hype over this for no reason.It may seem right,but when it comes down to its actual meaning,its pointless.

many people do not care for this ritual,but if they both play well,then this handshake means something.

However,if for e.g. 1 person continued to break the rules like hiding the ball when serving,and this also resulted in the opponent losing,then that handshake will not have any form of 'well played' behind it.It will be full of hate/anger.

this is my opinion.you are free to have your own.

sebas-aguirre
11-19-2014, 07:01 PM
zhang jike has just too much power...
if he shook hands ma long's hand would explode immediately like the commercial signs after his leg touched them.

Michal_Z
11-20-2014, 07:15 AM
i think people make a big hype over this for no reason.It may seem right,but when it comes down to its actual meaning,its pointless.

many people do not care for this ritual,but if they both play well,then this handshake means something.

However,if for e.g. 1 person continued to break the rules like hiding the ball when serving,and this also resulted in the opponent losing,then that handshake will not have any form of 'well played' behind it.It will be full of hate/anger.

this is my opinion.you are free to have your own.
Fang Bo and also Tang Peng both played well :)
I think they both forgot..