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TableTennisDaily
08-04-2020, 04:02 PM
What's happening guys? We're out of lock down... you asked for it so here it is! Butterfly's new Dignics 09C rubber up against the most popular table tennis rubber in China, DHS’s Hurricane 3!

In this review we use our new TTD rubber rating system so you get a better idea on how both rubbers compare in all aspects.

Can a €20-€30 rubber from China really stand up to this €80 euro rubber from Butterfly? Watch the video to find out!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJw4mJNEUbY

Have you tried the 09C against H3 yet?

Shifu
08-04-2020, 04:15 PM
The idea for the video is great but I think the comparison is not really fair.

- First there are so many versions of H3, you should have at least tried the provincial one.

- Dan's technique is more suited for the European style rubbers

- Then there are also different sponge hardnesses, 39 to 41/42 is a huge difference

- The way you boost (and which versions) change a lot of the properties

- The most important thing about H3 is its arc in my opinion. Here it really stands out, the much lower arc and faster ball after bounce make it deadly.

09c is not as demanding regarding technique and many people will like it better. But I think a perfectly hit ball is much more deadly with the H3.

lasta
08-04-2020, 04:27 PM
Great review, I doubt anyone would have much to argue.

However, I don't think they are targeting the H3 so much as the pack of other hybrids around.

Any significant differentiation from the tried and true Tibhar Hybrid series? Even a basic topsheet and sponge hardness comparison helps.

zyu81
08-04-2020, 04:42 PM
I'm a fan of the blind test system, however, shouldn't that have been done first?

After running through the non-blind tests, and making evaluations, I'd imagine that it would be pretty easy to tell which one is which on the blind test.

Michael Kitt
08-04-2020, 04:55 PM
Interesting that I catch hell for saying T05 has higher top end speed than H3 unboosted, but when they compare D09c (which I believe is considered slower than T05) to boosted H3 and say the same thing it's fine.

Arc and bounce are another thing, but "fly" speed H3 is fast but not as fast.

That said, in the review he says it's easier to generate spin with D09c, so likely it's more spin sensitive than H3, maybe.

piligrim
08-04-2020, 05:10 PM
So looks like not much difference

UpSideDownCarl
08-04-2020, 05:11 PM
Interesting that I catch hell for saying T05 has higher top end speed than H3 unboosted, but when they compare D09c (which I believe is considered slower than T05) to boosted H3 and say the same thing it's fine.

You caught hell for saying a girl--a girl with excellent technique who hits pretty hard--could not hit as hard as you and not being willing to show the video evidence. It had nothing to do with H3.

Without seeing video footage, I contend that it is more than likely that Hayata's stroke is technically enough better that she transfers more power into the ball than you do and that you simply don't realize it. Show the footage and we can see if you loop with as much power (combination of spin and speed) as Hayata.

If you are flat hitting that gives a fast shot with little spin. That is not as much power as a loop with massive spin and good pace.

zyu81
08-04-2020, 05:14 PM
Interesting that I catch hell for saying T05 has higher top end speed than H3 unboosted, but when they compare D09c (which I believe is considered slower than T05) to boosted H3 and say the same thing it's fine.

Arc and bounce are another thing, but "fly" speed H3 is fast but not as fast.

Nobody disagreed with your comments about H3 unboosted being slow. You caught hell for saying you hit harder than Hina Hayata even though your comments are very reflective of an amateur player.

On topic though, that is a interesting finding from Dan and Tom. Using a higher end version of H3 (boosted) probably would have been a more even comparison, nor do we know how they boosted it which could make a huge difference.

At any rate, these Chinese provincial players felt that the 09c is not as fast as Hurricane. Translated summary of findings in the video description.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6aaaYfl_tw

UpSideDownCarl
08-04-2020, 05:56 PM
And, just for the record:



If I said that I could punch harder than Amanda Nunes, the top ranked female fighter in the world, that must make me crazy too. There is a limit to how hard they can hit. The technique of hitting a ball with full speed while incorporating brush is not that hard a concept. Anyone can do it once in a blue moon with a little training. When a guy finally lands it, it's going to be more lethal.

This is simple logic...

It seems you went on to imply you can punch harder than Amanda Nunes. Maybe you can. I am still not quite sure. But, even if you can, she may still beat the pants off you in one of those matches. I don't really know how much you outweigh Amanda Nunes by. And even though punching has some technique to it, (If George Foreman's punching technique was half as good as Mike Tyson's, I would have been worried for the lives of some of his opponents because he hit hard off the wrong foot without the help of his body being behind his punches over and over and lifted guys off the ground) I don't think it has as much technique as transferring power into a little TT ball.

This is part of what is so amazing about TT. It is a game/sport where technique, touch, feel, precision, combined with timing--timing the weight transfer, the force from the legs, the core rotation, the upper arm, the lower arm and the wrist--timing all of that to pop into the contact of the ball at the specific right moment. That is where power comes from in a good TT loop. And lots of mid and lower level players don't realize how much they don't realize about the power of precision in this sport. :)

IB66
08-04-2020, 07:13 PM
I just watched the video and in the blind test I could tell straight away which rubber was which, I guessed correctly!

I completely got the wrong end of the stick, rigged up a couple of surgical masks as a blindfold, started the review and slipped on the blindfold, didn’t have a scooby which rubber was being used !!!!!:(:(

Michael Kitt
08-04-2020, 07:17 PM
Nunes would probably embarrass me unless I trained for a couple months at least. Hayata would annihilate me and hit the ball hard more often, but not with more power when in the most advantageous situations. I definitely don't flat hit, but anyways let's stay on topic.

Hamasaki_Fanz
08-04-2020, 07:33 PM
Hurricane is slower than Dignics09c? Hmmmm I doubt that

https://youtu.be/perb3qAMRn0?t=199

UpSideDownCarl
08-04-2020, 07:42 PM
Nunes would probably embarrass me unless I trained for a couple months at least. Hayata would annihilate me and hit the ball hard more often, but not with more power when in the most advantageous situations. I definitely don't flat hit, but anyways let's stay on topic.

If you have real fight training, I will accept that. If not, I highly doubt that a few months of training will help you at all against a skilled fighter.

As far as Hayata, one lucky loop out of 100 does not equate to more power. It equates to the possibility that, randomly, once in a while, Murphy's Law can invert.

And, just because you say you don't want us to comment on the topic, despite the fact that you commented on the topic, does not mean it will just get dropped because you said so. How this gets dropped is by you not digging yourself into a deeper hole. Which would mean, you ceasing the comments. Or you showing the video evidence.

If you show video footage and it shows you have serious power on your loops, you can talk all you want. If you are not going to show footage of you looping, I think that is answer enough that you ARE NOT TRANSFERRING THE KIND OF POWER INTO THE BALL that Hayata is able to do over and over shot after shot even when caught out of position.

You may swing harder. But you may have sooooooo much wasted effort that it does not transfer the power into the ball. Which is the important part of how hard a ball is hit, the transfer of your effort into the ball on contact as spin and speed.

zyu81
08-04-2020, 08:34 PM
Nunes would probably embarrass me unless I trained for a couple months at least. Hayata would annihilate me and hit the ball hard more often, but not with more power when in the most advantageous situations. I definitely don't flat hit, but anyways let's stay on topic.

You previously defined these "advantageous situations" as "when the opponent hits their hardest topspin at you and you hit your hardest topspin back at them, by starting your stroke before the opponent has even finished theirs and correcting your stroke in the middle of your shot, while at the table". I'm not sure what a real player or coach would call a shot of this description, except for maybe a ridiculously foolish and low-percentage counterloop, but your description goes against every advisable aspect of counterlooping a ball at the table.

Here's a quick video from Paul Drinkhall, a top player in the world, on how to play close to the table counter topspins. You might notice that he advises literally the direct opposite of everything you had previously described as your technique.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0rHMINl0KE


But, assuming you are right, why did you compare the most "advantageous situation" for you to an off-balance off-the-table counterloop that Hayata did? Don't you think she would have a ton more power in those "advantageous situations" that weren't shown on that one 3-second GIF? Seems like an apples to oranges comparison to me, unless you have ever seen her doing the same shot which you are describing for yourself. But you said that you had never even heard of her...

IB66
08-04-2020, 09:09 PM
Hurricane is slower than Dignics09c? Hmmmm I doubt that

https://youtu.be/perb3qAMRn0?t=199

Hi,

what rubber was he using? std H3? H3 provincial? ........? Red sheet so it wasn’t H3 Nat blue sponge. Do you know whether it was boosted?
he has a very nice compact action with excellent wrist snap!!

zyu81
08-04-2020, 09:17 PM
Hurricane is slower than Dignics09c? Hmmmm I doubt that

https://youtu.be/perb3qAMRn0?t=199

Got a summary of what's going on in the video?

Michael Kitt
08-04-2020, 09:19 PM
That description isn't the most advantageous, it's merely the most fun, you can adapt if opponent changes direction depending on how fast their shot is. Anyways I tested the speed from a simple drill topspin to topspin, someone posts a gif of some girl saying I should hit as hard as her, and I hit harder than that when testing, T05 was still faster. Y'all are making an argument out of nothing, especially if you don't disagree with the original statement, that T05 tops out faster than unboosted H3, regardless of how you hit the ball.

UpSideDownCarl
08-04-2020, 10:11 PM
That description isn't the most advantageous, it's merely the most fun, you can adapt if opponent changes direction depending on how fast their shot is. Anyways I tested the speed from a simple drill topspin to topspin, someone posts a gif of some girl saying I should hit as hard as her, and I hit harder than that when testing, T05 was still faster. Y'all are making an argument out of nothing, especially if you don't disagree with the original statement, that T05 tops out faster than unboosted H3, regardless of how you hit the ball.

If you want to say you hit harder than her, SHOW THE FOOTAGE. No Footage, no credibility to your bragging. So, if you show the footage you can talk. If you want to talk smack, MAN UP and SHOW THE FOOTAGE.

You bring this up, you show the proof.

JCL1973
08-04-2020, 10:19 PM
I had used the D9C, Nittaku Turbo Hurricane pro 3 orange and blue and also the Hurricane Provincial. I am a one-sided penholder so I am very sensitive to the rubber as I need to loop and punch block with it.
Having tried all these rubbers, I can confidently say that D9C is a league above Nittaku but a bit difficult to compare to Hurricane 3 Provincial (boosted). What's the difference? To begin, D9C is very easy to use. The arc is incredibly high. It is very easy to loop any ball and land it on the table. Opponents will find it hard to block because there is a sudden upward bounce when it hits the table. This upward bounce is very similar to those jumpy serve. This signature is also very different from Hurricane 3, which will make the ball dip down after contacting the table. Which one is harder to block? Both are equally harder if you are not familiar with the characteristic. When you are nearer to the table, D9C produces better deadly spin than H3. But if you are slightly away from the table, H3 loop/drive can be more devastating than D9C. Still, D9C far away loop/drive is weirder than T05 as it has a lot more spin. Counter attack with D9C is a breeze, way better than D05 or D80. Both D05 and D80 are already easy in this department. Blocking is the weakness of this rubber. It lacks pace when you do a passive block and it risks going into the net when you do an active block. It takes time to adjust but it is not worth it. The block is not fast and it gives the opponents plenty of time to go after the next shot. So, if you block with this rubber, you are giving your opponent a chance to breathe. But if you are using it to spin on your backhand, it can be good.

JustANoob
08-04-2020, 11:52 PM
...

Have you had the opportunity to play with rakza z ?

JCL1973
08-05-2020, 12:24 AM
Have you had the opportunity to play with rakza z ?

No I have not. I tend to use Donic, Xiom and Butterfly rubbers. Now I only use butterfly inverted rubber.

brokenball
08-05-2020, 04:33 AM
I am not impressed. Although it is easy to believe that Dignics is faster than H3 National, I didn't think the rest of the video was that good because it is mostly opinion. I still think the best way to review a rubber is the way Pathfinderpro did years go.

Basically the spin and speed can be summed up with normal and tangential coefficient of restitution. There is an issue of how liner the COR as a function of impact speed. The dwell times between the two rubbers will be small. I don't see how a human can measure the difference. Speed is good if you play away from the table. I don't see where it is as necessary if you play close to the table. I also like to think of spin to speed COR ratios. There is too little, too much and just right. The question is spin to speed ratio for the Dignics just right. From Dan and Tom's review is seems that the ratio may be a little low which would make arcs a little harder to achieve.

The must be hundreds of rubbers now and the different rubbers cannot all have widely varying CORs. Much of this is marketing that preys on the myths held by TT players.

Hamasaki_Fanz
08-05-2020, 06:55 AM
Hi,

what rubber was he using? std H3? H3 provincial? ........? Red sheet so it wasn’t H3 Nat blue sponge. Do you know whether it was boosted?
he has a very nice compact action with excellent wrist snap!!

It's hurricane neo 2, provincial one most likely.



Got a summary of what's going on in the video?

Hit the ball flat and brush at the end

jammmail
08-05-2020, 08:07 AM
Would have been nice to have compared it against T05 as well as H3 as I feel most people will have played with or tried that as a benchmark. To see how close it was to H3 or the otherway.

jammmail
08-05-2020, 08:23 AM
I'm a fan of the blind test system, however, shouldn't that have been done first?


Thats a nice idea – would have given a truer first opinion

yogi_bear
08-05-2020, 08:42 AM
The factors that keep hurricane 3 from being faster than tenergy 05 or Dignics 09c are the type of sponge and also tackiness. Tackiness is greater in h3 and makes the ball slower. also, the energy transfer for the sponge between h3 and dignics 09c is just too big of a difference. If a player can hit that hard in h3 he can even make it faster with same effort for dignics 09c.

Tango K
08-05-2020, 10:14 AM
Well. Thanks Dan and Tom showing the expected results (convincingly) :))) I guess it’s kinda obvious H3 is not that fast. Somehow ppl just love it so much so ppl want to believe it’s the fastest :(

Kinda the same ppl believe that it’s for “advanced” players only. I started regular training a year ago rightaway with H3 and it’s really effective (for my development). The key thing with H3 is that you cannot let the rubber bounce the ball by random for you. It won’t happen. And also you can easily transfer all your swing power into it. It’s also a lot less sensitive to incoming power. Hence it’s very easy to notice how you have swung. So the “muted”/“dead” feel of H3 is very very important.

And as a nature of life. You cannot have everything in a magic product. You have to trade off. Otherwise everybody would be using it already.

bobpuls
08-05-2020, 10:38 AM
I don`t know if most of you get the idea about what is this topic and video really about ...
For me is the h3 winner because of the price .... but what i know for sure (from Youtube comments ) that there will be: "Hey guys! We will release a video comparing the 09C against the Province and National H3 version very soon Stay tuned "
so wait for it ....

v100ev
08-05-2020, 11:01 AM
Great video as always, the idea is great too. It's just very hard for one man to compare two rubbers that need different technique.
If one has that in mind when watching the video then he'll find it helpful and insightful.
Once again - great video guys and I'm pretty sure we're all very happy here that your lockdown is over! ;)

zyu81
08-05-2020, 02:16 PM
Great video as always, the idea is great too. It's just very hard for one man to compare two rubbers that need different technique.
If one has that in mind when watching the video then he'll find it helpful and insightful.
Once again - great video guys and I'm pretty sure we're all very happy here that your lockdown is over! ;)

I don't know about "different technique" but it's a matter of familiarity.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6aaaYfl_tw

In this video by Chinese provincial players, who are likely more familiar with provincial sheets of H3 boosted, they state that the 09C is still not as fast as H3. The same way that Dan/Tom stated the opposite.

The TTD guys mentioned on YouTube that they will be posting a review comparing provincial/national H3 to 09C "very soon". Provided that they boost the H3 properly, I expect to hear less about the speed differences that everyone is getting caught up about.

yogi_bear
08-05-2020, 02:27 PM
If the provincial and national versions are not as tacky as the commercial ones and also are heavily boosted then they would come out with more spin and power but then again you will be comparing 2 rubbers one which is only factory boosted and the other is boosted which is illegal in ittf's standard or in a more simple te "unnatural". Though both rubbers have factory boosting, if you will compare both rubbers with the h3 with more boosting seems not a fair comparison because why not just boost both rubbers to have a fair result??

zyu81
08-05-2020, 02:31 PM
If the provincial and national versions are not as tacky as tje commercial ones and also are heavily boosted then they would come out with more spin and power but then again you will be comparing 2 rubbers one which is only factory boosted amd the other is boosted which is illegal in ittf's standard or in a more simple te "unnatural". Though both rubbers have factory boosting, if you will compare both rubbers with the h3 with more noosting seems not a fair comparison because why not just boost both rubbers to have a fair result??

It may be technically illegal but it's still what every good player does when it comes to using H3, I don't think anyone here would argue that unboosted H3 is a fast or powerful rubber at all. I don't think ITTF rules are going to apply to anyone here, but I have always agreed that those boosted sheets of H3 aren't necessarily the best choice for most club players.

bobpuls
08-05-2020, 02:32 PM
Even without booster.. Bs sponges are different from regular ones

yogi_bear
08-05-2020, 02:43 PM
It may be technically illegal but it's still what every good player does when it comes to using H3, I don't think anyone here would argue that unboosted H3 is a fast or powerful rubber at all. I don't think ITTF rules are going to apply to anyone here, but I have always agreed that those boosted sheets of H3 aren't necessarily the best choice for most club players.

The player's skill is not the focus on the topic since you are dealing with comparison of properties between 2 rubbers. Basic experimentation principles would tell you this is not a fair comparison. Do not get me wrong, i heavily boost my h3 and other chinese rubbers with seamoon booster but to compare heavily boosted h3 with unaltered D09c is just not fair.

JCL1973
08-05-2020, 02:45 PM
The player's skill is not the focus on the topic since you are dealing with comparison of properties between 2 rubbers. Basic experimentation principles would tell you this is not a fair comparison. Do not get me wrong, i heavily boost my h3 and other chinese rubbers with seamoon booster but to compare heavily boosted h3 with unaltered D09c is just not fair.

I agree. If one boost a hard sponge H3, why not boost the D9C too, which also has a hard sponge?

zyu81
08-05-2020, 02:54 PM
The player's skill is not the focus on the topic since you are dealing with comparison of properties between 2 rubbers. Basic experimentation principles would tell you this is not a fair comparison. Do not get me wrong, i heavily boost my h3 and other chinese rubbers with seamoon booster but to compare heavily boosted h3 with unaltered D09c is just not fair.

I totally agree on that point. It would be more reasonable to compare boosted versions of both sheets.

What I was trying to say is that it is absolutely necessary to boost H3 whereas it might not be necessary for 09C. But that fact says something too. The difference between unboosted/boosted H3 is night and day, whereas that remains to be seen for 09C, but yes, absolutely, to do it for both would be a more fair comparison. 09C with booster could be a lot better, or not much change, or worse...

yogi_bear
08-05-2020, 02:57 PM
I totally agree on that point. It would be more reasonable to compare boosted versions of both sheets.

What I was trying to say is that it is absolutely necessary to boost H3 whereas it might not be necessary for 09C. But that fact says something too. The difference between unboosted/boosted H3 is night and day, whereas that remains to be seen for 09C, but yes, absolutely, to do it for both would be a more fair comparison. 09C with booster could be a lot better, or not much change, or worse...
I would agree on this and i hope Dan would apply the same amount of booster to the D09c also.

NextLevel
08-05-2020, 04:23 PM
The review has a lot of issues - the benefit of H3 when it comes to spin isn't on spinning up the ball, it is on the fact that you can play with a low of power and still have no limit on the spin potential. This creates a major mental problem when you are used to facing Euro rubbers as the rotation on the ball is immense compared to the expectation of a similar stroke from a Euro rubber.

So it is kind of put out there by stating that on a shot where you can use more power (looping from the table), you can get more spin, but it also means that in reality, most Hurricane users will not be spinning up the ball the way Dan did.

flash
08-05-2020, 04:38 PM
I used H3 on my forehand for about 3 years solid,and to me to get the speed out of H3 is not how hard you hit but how fast and glaze the ball instead of flat hitting. Any way that was my experience .

zyu81
08-05-2020, 05:33 PM
The review has a lot of issues - the benefit of H3 when it comes to spin isn't on spinning up the ball, it is on the fact that you can play with a low of power and still have no limit on the spin potential. This creates a major mental problem when you are used to facing Euro rubbers as the rotation on the ball is immense compared to the expectation of a similar stroke from a Euro rubber.

So it is kind of put out there by stating that on a shot where you can use more power (looping from the table), you can get more spin, but it also means that in reality, most Hurricane users will not be spinning up the ball the way Dan did.

Yes. And for practical purposes, a ball with lesser spin versus a ball with more spin that is moving at the same velocity, although they are technically the same speed, to an actual player, the ball with more spin is going to be "faster" due to the increased pressure the receiving player is put under, less time they have to adjust and make a viable return, the way the ball will kick forward, etc, this stuff all goes into perceived speed by the opponent receiving your shots. It's not simply the velocity.

UpSideDownCarl
08-05-2020, 06:02 PM
Yes. And for practical purposes, a ball with lesser spin versus a ball with more spin that is moving at the same velocity, although they are technically the same speed, to an actual player, the ball with more spin is going to be "faster" due to the increased pressure the receiving player is put under, less time they have to adjust and make a viable return, the way the ball will kick forward, etc, this stuff all goes into perceived speed by the opponent receiving your shots. It's not simply the velocity.

Yep. This is very important. Speed alone will not overpower. Spin alone can overpower. So, if what NL says about spin potential on lower power with H3, then that is a big deal.

And the combination of speed and spin is what makes a shot REALLY powerful. Which is also why some lower level players can be fooled and think: "My shot is faster, it has more power, I hit harder;" while they cannot see how much more spin a higher level player's ball has on it while still being pretty fast.

When you see a shot that is pretty fast, and it also arcs down towards the table because the spin overpowers the speed changing the trajectory, you know that is a shot with a lot of power and if you don't touch it right when returning it will feel like a ton of bricks and explode off your racket.

Kuba Hajto
08-05-2020, 06:52 PM
I used H3 on my forehand for about 3 years solid,and to me to get the speed out of H3 is not how hard you hit but how fast and glaze the ball instead of flat hitting. Any way that was my experience .

Agreed! That's why you don't need to hit hard. You need to brush with high acceleration and with just right contact. Raw power is not enough. Technique, touch and finesse is what is required to get benefits from H3. Without those it is empty annoying brick as some might be calling those.

JCL1973
08-05-2020, 08:09 PM
Agreed! That's why you don't need to hit hard. You need to brush with high acceleration and with just right contact. Raw power is not enough. Technique, touch and finesse is what is required to get benefits from H3. Without those it is empty annoying brick as some might be calling those.

I would gently and poitely disagree. All good shots need to brush with acceleration. But if you are not hitting through the sponge of H3, you are not unleashing the power of this rubber. Many of these H3 players boost the rubber to keep the sponge soft, so that it is easier to hit through it. Any forward motion will give you the sponge impact while you loop. This forward motion, this impact will decide how powerful and how fast your loop will be. The accelerated brush from elbow and wrist will then decide the amount of spin. Ideal stroke will be around 70% impact/contact, 30% accelerated brushing. With ABS ball, some would do 80/20%. If you re looping near the table from an incoming underspin, you would likely be 10/90% to 30/70%., which means more upward motion. Also note that the power should be coming from your legs to hip rotation and then to your paddle, never about arm swing.

Kuba Hajto
08-05-2020, 08:25 PM
I would gently and poitely disagree. All good shots need to brush with acceleration. But if you are not hitting through the sponge of H3, you are not unleashing the power of this rubber. Many of these H3 players boost the rubber to keep the sponge soft, so that it is easier to hit through it. Any forward motion will give you the sponge impact while you loop. This forward motion, this impact will decide how powerful and how fast your loop will be. The accelerated brush from elbow and wrist will then decide the amount of spin. Ideal stroke will be around 70% impact/contact, 30% accelerated brushing. With ABS ball, some would do 80/20%. If you re looping near the table from an incoming underspin, you would likely be 10/90% to 30/70%., which means more upward motion.

I didn't say you don't need to engage sponge. I said that you need to have just right contact. Not too thin, not too thick. I don't want to say what that contact is, because I can feel if do it right, but I don't know what the sponge is doing at that time. What I consider brush is stroke that has bat trajectory tangential to the ball. You can swing forward and don't strike through the ball is more like secant contact.


Also note that the power should be coming from your legs to hip rotation and then to your paddle, never about arm swing.

Couldn't agree more, I don't think I've ever said otherwise.

Probably the truth is somewhere in between. I dunno. That's what I was taught and what works for me. Also maybe I just understand what I feel wrong. When I think I've had proper contact, I feel ball dragging over the top sheet and I can observe speedy ball with flat trajectory, dipping strongly near the end line. I can also hear loud click if I was going for power.

NextLevel
08-05-2020, 08:30 PM
I would gently and poitely disagree. All good shots need to brush with acceleration. But if you are not hitting through the sponge of H3, you are not unleashing the power of this rubber. Many of these H3 players boost the rubber to keep the sponge soft, so that it is easier to hit through it. Any forward motion will give you the sponge impact while you loop. This forward motion, this impact will decide how powerful and how fast your loop will be. The accelerated brush from elbow and wrist will then decide the amount of spin. Ideal stroke will be around 70% impact/contact, 30% accelerated brushing. With ABS ball, some would do 80/20%. If you re looping near the table from an incoming underspin, you would likely be 10/90% to 30/70%., which means more upward motion. Also note that the power should be coming from your legs to hip rotation and then to your paddle, never about arm swing.

A higher level player told me that it really isn't about softness but about sponge compression - the boosters put bubbles in the sponge so it is easier to compress and generate spin. But the compressibility argument also applies to softer sponges as well.

IB66
08-05-2020, 08:32 PM
Hi,

1 thing to remember is that the D09C sponge is around 3 to 5 degrees harder than the H3 sponge!!! And 7 degrees harder than the H3 (37deg) that the lady was using in the D09C H3 blue sponge and H3 37 degree review.
H3 generally available in 39/40/41 degree sponges
D09C is 44 degree sponge hardness.
So when the H3 is boosted the sponge becomes ‘softer’ by how much I don’t know. So there could be a fairly large difference between the 2 rubbers s far as sponge hardness is concerned.
Another difference is probably density of the sponges, what the air to sponge ratio is, bubble size etc
is H3 sponge denser? Smaller bubble size? I think it probably is, that’s why it’s harder to engage the sponge and release the Gears H3 has.
Believe me, there is a noticeable difference in the spring effect of the D09C compared to the H3, the 1st time I had both rubbers on a blade together, for a short BH push the ball flew about 2ft further with D09C than H3, I was only pushing the ball 3 ft with the H3 twiddled to the D09C and ‘pop’ the ball just jumped forward an extra 2ft or so!!!
this reaction is what gives the impression of speed.
in a review I did earlier, I stated that D09C and Spin Art were faster than H3 with Aibiss slowest. I still stand by this, but what I would say is that the FASTER your stroke is, with good brushing then the difference in speed between the 2 rubbers becomes less different and this is where GEARS come into play, H3 has more, so I believe that possibly it becomes faster, especially when the ball is heavily spun. I can’t swing fast enough so therefore can’t reach the higher gears. That’s why I say H3 is slower.
Also remember that for years Players using H3 and T05 would twiddle when playing smashes, because the T05 was just simply faster. D09C may be similar, but as of yet have any CNT players used H3 D09C combo? It would be interesting to see what they do!

JCL1973
08-05-2020, 08:49 PM
I didn't say you don't need to engage sponge. I said that you need to have just right contact. Not too thin, not too thick. I don't want to say what that contact is, because I can feel if do it right, but I don't know what the sponge is doing at that time. What I consider brush is stroke that has bat trajectory tangential to the ball. You can swing forward and don't strike through the ball is more like secant contact.



Couldn't agree more, I don't think I've ever said otherwise.

Probably the truth is somewhere in between. I dunno. That's what I was taught and what works for me. Also maybe I just understand what I feel wrong. When I think I've had proper contact, I feel ball dragging over the top sheet and I can observe speedy ball with flat trajectory, dipping strongly near the end line. I can also hear loud click if I was going for power.

The irony is H3 sponge is not easy to engage if you don't hit hard enough. So, it really depends on how boosted is that H3 sponge. Everyone has a different stroke. We can agree to disagree :-), If you look at players above 2500 level, you will see how hard they hit when they loop.

JCL1973
08-05-2020, 08:54 PM
A higher level player told me that it really isn't about softness but about sponge compression - the boosters put bubbles in the sponge so it is easier to compress and generate spin. But the compressibility argument also applies to softer sponges as well.

The bubble theory is beyond my level. But I can say for certain is boosting soften H3 rubber so it is easier to use and you can obtain more spin because there is a longer dwell time. Then again, booster is different from speed glue. I can easily block a 1900 player with boosted H3 national but it is extremely difficult to block a speed glued H3 commercial. I am a good blocker too.

IB66
08-05-2020, 08:56 PM
I would gently and poitely disagree. All good shots need to brush with acceleration. But if you are not hitting through the sponge of H3, you are not unleashing the power of this rubber. Many of these H3 players boost the rubber to keep the sponge soft, so that it is easier to hit through it. Any forward motion will give you the sponge impact while you loop. This forward motion, this impact will decide how powerful and how fast your loop will be. The accelerated brush from elbow and wrist will then decide the amount of spin. Ideal stroke will be around 70% impact/contact, 30% accelerated brushing. With ABS ball, some would do 80/20%. If you re looping near the table from an incoming underspin, you would likely be 10/90% to 30/70%., which means more upward motion. Also note that the power should be coming from your legs to hip rotation and then to your paddle, never about arm swing.

I agree that the power comes from your legs, hip rotation, but the power is then transferred through and by your arm as well, and the arm swing is actually a big factor.
a straighter arm (not fully extended) makes a longer arc.
if you swing your arm with the arm straight, what moves fastest? Shoulder, elbow or hand? It’s your hand because it’s travelled further in the same amount of time.
thats why the European ‘FOLDED’ chicken wing topspin drive/loop is generally less efficient than the Chinese ‘EXTENDED’ chicken wing topspin drive/loop.

JCL1973
08-05-2020, 09:42 PM
I agree that the power comes from your legs, hip rotation, but the power is then transferred through and by your arm as well, and the arm swing is actually a big factor.
a straighter arm (not fully extended) makes a longer arc.
if you swing your arm with the arm straight, what moves fastest? Shoulder, elbow or hand? It’s your hand because it’s travelled further in the same amount of time.
thats why the European ‘FOLDED’ chicken wing topspin drive/loop is generally less efficient than the Chinese ‘EXTENDED’ chicken wing topspin drive/loop.

You are probably way more advance than my level. I can only share what works for me. Arm... you will always use arm in any stroke but I would try to use it during the brushing part and less on the contact portion of the movement. This is what works for me but will probably be different from yours. Anything works as long the ball land on the table and you are able to keep repeating it with great efficiency :-). Kim Take Soo once said that there's no such thing as correct form. Everyone is different. Just make sure the ball lands consistently and with power ;-)

zyu81
08-05-2020, 10:04 PM
I agree that the power comes from your legs, hip rotation, but the power is then transferred through and by your arm as well, and the arm swing is actually a big factor.
a straighter arm (not fully extended) makes a longer arc.
if you swing your arm with the arm straight, what moves fastest? Shoulder, elbow or hand? It’s your hand because it’s travelled further in the same amount of time.
thats why the European ‘FOLDED’ chicken wing topspin drive/loop is generally less efficient than the Chinese ‘EXTENDED’ chicken wing topspin drive/loop.

I have a feeling this conversation is going a bit too into the weeds for me to understand...but what do you mean by looping with a straight arm? How do you snap the forearm and wrist if you are looping with a straight arm?

JCL1973
08-05-2020, 10:18 PM
I have a feeling this conversation is going a bit too into the weeds for me to understand...but what do you mean by looping with a straight arm? How do you snap the forearm and wrist if you are looping with a straight arm?

Based on my personal experience, if you are using tensor rubber or esn rubber, it will be more effective and efficient to not have the arm straight. This is because the sponge is springy enough for you to generate power with a chicken wing arm...haha. But if you use a Hurricane rubber, an extended arm is better as it will help you to engage the sponge more with a lot more force. So, to me it is incorrect to say that the European style is less efficient. They are simply using a different type of rubber. Lastly, Jpen playing style also benefit from extended arm loop as it create monstrous driving loop.

zyu81
08-05-2020, 10:19 PM
I think he means looping with the arm not so tucked in, a bit more like Xu Xin sometimes does. Arm at full length at some point in the swing or as with Xu Xin often fully extended all the way through the shot.

Does anybody loop with their elbow completely untucked?

MOG
08-05-2020, 10:22 PM
Xu Xin


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaLrnXBOjkQ

UpSideDownCarl
08-05-2020, 10:24 PM
I think he means looping with the arm not so tucked in, a bit more like Xu Xin sometimes does. Arm at full length at some point in the swing or as with Xu Xin often fully extended all the way through the shot.

I am not sure, but it might be good for us to let IB66 tell us what SHE means. :)

zyu81
08-05-2020, 10:26 PM
Based on my personal experience, if you are using tensor rubber or esn rubber, it will be more effective and efficient to not have the arm straight. This is because the sponge is springy enough for you to generate power with a chicken wing arm...haha. But if you use a Hurricane rubber, an extended arm is better as it will help you to engage the sponge more with a lot more force. So, to me it is incorrect to say that the European style is less efficient. They are simply using a different type of rubber. Lastly, Jpen playing style also benefit from extended arm loop as it create monstrous driving loop.

Hmm. I will need IB66 to explain. Like you, this discussion may be getting too far past my level. :cool:

Is it referring to how far someone brings their hand or backswing back? I guess that would give a "straighter" arm if you are backswinging more. But that is a function of how much time the player has to prepare for a shot. More time = more backswing. That's not a fundamental function of two intrinsically different loops. Unless I'm understanding wrong :(

If IB66 is referring to how much the elbow is tucked...Ma Long tucks his elbow quite close to his body. Does he have a less efficient European loop?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ed4yO-otvNs

JCL1973
08-05-2020, 10:30 PM
Hmm. I will need IB66 to explain. Like you, this discussion may be getting too far past my level. :cool:

Is it referring to how far someone brings their hand or backswing back? I guess that would give a "straighter" arm if you are backswinging more. But that is a function of how much time the player has to prepare for a shot. More time = more backswing. That's not a fundamental function of two intrinsically different loops. Unless I'm understanding wrong :(

If IB66 is referring to how much the elbow is tucked...Ma Long tucks his elbow quite close to his body. Does he have a less efficient European loop?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ed4yO-otvNs

You can compare the video you post with what Timo Boll does. Both are correct as long as you engage the sponge :-)

zyu81
08-05-2020, 10:33 PM
You can compare the video you post with what Timo Boll does. Both are correct as long as you engage the sponge :-)

To be clear, I don't believe that any one loop is more efficient or less than another at the pro level. Nor do I think geographic tendencies are the differentiator of efficiency. :) Sure, Timo tends to bring his hand/backswing back much less. But I am just trying to make sure that that is what people are talking about, first. I'm trying to clarify where the "straight arm" is coming from, because everyone bends their arm to some degree except for if you are playing a big counter loop way off the table or something.

NextLevel
08-05-2020, 10:34 PM
To be clear, I don't believe that any one loop is more efficient or less than another at the pro level. Nor do I think geographic tendencies are the differentiator of efficiency. :) Sure, Timo tends to bring his hand/backswing back much less. But I am just trying to make sure that that is what people are talking about, first.

Yes, that is what people are talking about.

IB66
08-05-2020, 10:40 PM
I have a feeling this conversation is going a bit too into the weeds...but what do you mean by looping with a straight arm? How do you snap the forearm and wrist if you are looping with a straight arm?
Straighter arm, not totally straight or rigid, for want of a better term a flattened out / elongated M shape. So right vertical line is your body, the ‘v’ is shoulder to elbow to wrist and the left vertical line is hand and blade pointing downwards (45ish degrees) and can then be snapped up.
both styles have the similar ‘ M shape’ but the Chinese style is stretched out (but not stretching to full reach) whereas the euro style is more compact.
the arm being slightly straighter also allows the force / power built up during the hip , chest and shoulder turn to be transferred through the arm slightly easier, a more direct path, shallower bends to navigate.
also during the swing they try to relax their arm muscles as much as possible, then when the wrist is snapped it helps to tense the arm muscles, the power is again transferred more efficiently, like a sort of shock wave through the muscles into the blade. Relaxed muscles will absorb the ‘shock wave’. A hammer isn’t made of jelly !!!! A fraction after contact the muscles are relaxed again.
hope this helps !!!!

zyu81
08-05-2020, 10:40 PM
Yes, that is what people are talking about.

Thanks for clarifying. A longer backswing should theoretically create a more powerful loop/higher racket speed at ball contact, but there are several tradeoffs to looping that way as well. Recovery time, room for error...so "more efficient" is debatable IMO. It's more situational...I suppose one could even argue a shorter backswing is more efficient...

zyu81
08-05-2020, 10:43 PM
Straighter arm, not totally straight or rigid, for want of a better term a flattened out / elongated M shape. So right vertical line is your body, the ‘v’ is shoulder to elbow to wrist and the left vertical line is hand and blade pointing downwards (45ish degrees) and can then be snapped up.
both styles have the similar ‘ M shape’ but the Chinese style is stretched out (but not stretching to full reach) whereas the euro style is more compact.
the arm being slightly straighter also allows the force / power built up during the hip , chest and shoulder turn to be transferred through the arm slightly easier, a more direct path, shallower bends to navigate.
also during the swing they try to relax their arm muscles as much as possible, then when the wrist is snapped it helps to tense the arm muscles, the power is again transferred more efficiently, like a sort of shock wave through the muscles into the blade. Relaxed muscles will absorb the ‘shock wave’. A hammer isn’t made of jelly !!!! A fraction after contact the muscles are relaxed again.
hope this helps !!!!

Got it, I think I've got the terminology figured out now. I've made a few other posts. Relaxing the arm, building up power from the hip/chest/shoulder and transferring that into the ball are core fundamentals of all types of loops though.

IB66
08-05-2020, 11:56 PM
Got it, I think I've got the terminology figured out now. I've made a few other posts. Relaxing the arm, building up power from the hip/chest/shoulder and transferring that into the ball are core fundamentals of all types of loops though.

things are changing, constantly. There definitely was a difference in looping styles between the Far East and Western countries, the lines are now becoming far more blurred especially as westerners can now visit countries like China far more easily than years ago and can train with the Chinese, Korean, Japanese etc players, and take on board the best bits of everyone’s thoughts, philosophies and styles and adapt accordingly.

regarding Ma Long and Timo Boll I feel Ma Longs forehand loop drive is more efficient at producing power, speed of stroke, spin, weight transfer etc, of course Timo Boll is not hitting the ball un-efficiently, all top players have to have great strokes and Timo Bolls is also excellent. Ma long has also had to adapt his game and playing style as his career has progressed, in certain situations he has become more compact as well

the thread had moved onto the speed of the rubbers, whether H3 or D09C was fastest. H3 is a Chinese rubber, in order to release the power and spin capabilities of these rubbers and achieve the highest of its gears you really do need an excellently efficient stroke and be prepared to put in maximum effort, the type of very tacky rubbers used in China has meant, out of necessity, they have had to develop a slightly different technique especially on the forehand side where more power is generally available.
On the backhand side tensor rubbers have been used as the rubber helps produce speed and spin, although some players may be moving back to Chinese rubbers on the backhand side, things change and evolve all the time.

UpSideDownCarl
08-06-2020, 01:39 AM
I think the point that the extension of the arm having to do with how much of a backswing the player has time for and that, a player, trained with tacky rubbers like H3 and given extensive hours of training from an early age may tend to do this more frequently and start with the bigger swing a little closer to the table. But when the players are far enough back and taking full looping strokes, the bigger backswing and the fuller arm extension happens to most players.

BTW: MOG, that video of Xu Xin made my day. That guy is just a magician and an artist with the racket.

yogi_bear
08-06-2020, 04:42 AM
Waldner despite not being Chinese uses almost a straight arm when swinging and not the type of swing like Timo"s. I think Kreanga does this too.

matzreenzi
08-06-2020, 05:24 AM
Waldner despite not being Chinese uses almost a straight arm when swinging and not the type of swing like Timo"s. I think Kreanga does this too.

I guess training in China is one of the contributing factor

brokenball
08-06-2020, 06:20 AM
You guys most now that there is no impulse that can be generated by a rubber that can't be generated by another rubber. I will leave it to you to figure out what an impulse is. Basically, different rubbers can generate the same ball trajectory with different strokes.

yogi_bear
08-06-2020, 07:14 AM
I guess training in China is one of the contributing factor

Maybe, but if you look at non-chinese players today, a lot of them do not have "chicken wing arm stroke" of timo boll.

Tango K
08-06-2020, 10:38 AM
Maybe, but if you look at non-chinese players today, a lot of them do not have "chicken wing arm stroke" of timo boll.

And then I feel like people take Chinese as Ma Long. What about Liang Jingkun, Zhang Jike and Wang Chuqin. And talk about European, what about Hugo? (Well, he’s literally not European but here is where he trains)

yogi_bear
08-06-2020, 10:52 AM
And then I feel like people take Chinese as Ma Long. What about Liang Jingkun, Zhang Jike and Wang Chuqin. And talk about European, what about Hugo? (Well, he’s literally not European but here is where he trains)
I usually see them doing chicken wing arm when doing drills but the moment matches are made, the extended arms dominate their strokes especially with ma long and zjk.

Shifu
08-06-2020, 10:56 AM
It has to do with the distance from the table. In the matches we watch they are very often pushed back from the table and that is when they can do a full stroke.

yogi_bear
08-06-2020, 11:16 AM
Ma long does full swings on opening loops vs underspin.

Tango K
08-06-2020, 11:41 AM
I’m lost in between the chicken and ostrich wings. But watch this one
https://youtu.be/tzHs-7GA4k4

It’s got all, opening, close, far, counter, spin, power loops. In/out positions...

My explanation is that Liang Jingkun (sponsored by Yasaka) is using Rakza Z with sponge recoloured to Blue :D

(Btw you can just tune it to minute 8.59 and watch the best point. It’s ridiculous!)

zyu81
08-06-2020, 02:08 PM
You guys most now that there is no impulse that can be generated by a rubber that can't be generated by another rubber. I will leave it to you to figure out what an impulse is. Basically, different rubbers can generate the same ball trajectory with different strokes.

I know that trying to learn how to play a sport by breaking down the physics or science of it, is not the way to go.

NextLevel
08-06-2020, 02:26 PM
Thanks for clarifying. A longer backswing should theoretically create a more powerful loop/higher racket speed at ball contact, but there are several tradeoffs to looping that way as well. Recovery time, room for error...so "more efficient" is debatable IMO. It's more situational...I suppose one could even argue a shorter backswing is more efficient...

I don't agree, but the discussion is nuanced. Obviously, Timo Boll is one of the best players in the world, so it is all relative. But I do think that most Europeans are limited in the technical options they can bring to a ball when they need to put it away. Usually, the Koreans and Chinese don't have this problem.

zyu81
08-06-2020, 02:32 PM
I don't agree, but the discussion is nuanced. Obviously, Timo Boll is one of the best players in the world, so it is all relative. But I do think that most Europeans are limited in the technical options they can bring to a ball when they need to put it away. Usually, the Koreans and Chinese don't have this problem.

Which part do you disagree with? Thinking it over again, depending on how fast you reach maximum bat speed, a longer backswing might not necessarily matter more actually. A lot of putting a ball away has to do with how much you go forward, where you take the ball, etc... I also mean those tradeoffs mentioned are more applicable to regular amateur players, not pro players.

Then again, I do agree that this discussion as a whole in terms of improvement is nearly useless, and will do little to help an amateur player actually improve...just a little bit of theoretical discussion.

Tinykin
08-06-2020, 02:45 PM
I know that trying to learn how to play a sport by breaking down the physics or science of it, is not the way to go.

Maybe not, overall, but it does help many players and coaches to better understand what's happening. Besides, TT is known for the significant amount of Nerds that are fans. A bit like F1 motorsport.

NextLevel
08-06-2020, 02:46 PM
Which part do you disagree with? Thinking it over again, depending on how fast you reach maximum bat speed, a longer backswing might not necessarily matter more actually. A lot of putting a ball away has to do with how much you go forward, where you take the ball, etc... I also mean those tradeoffs mentioned are more applicable to regular amateur players, not pro players.

Then again, I do agree that this discussion as a whole in terms of improvement is nearly useless, and will do little to help an amateur player actually improve...just a little bit of theoretical discussion.

It is easy to talk about in the abstract but if we put Fan Zhendong and Timo Boll side by side on video looping to a block, we can get a better idea of what it means. Nigerians also do straight arm loops with intense forearm snap and of course my biase leads me to believe it is ultimately a more powerful forehand and not that different from the European technique if you don't engage the upper arm too much. I think that as great and fantastic Timo Boll is, he likely is leaving quite a bit on the table with his technique. And I don't think the tradeoff is quite what people think it is. People just assume it is.

I think that in general, the main reason this discussion can help an amateur player is that getting more efficient technique is always relative to yourself. It can give you insight into how to improve your technique under various conditions.

That said, your best forehand is your best forehand no matter how you swing it.

Tinykin
08-06-2020, 02:47 PM
Also, all players use the chicken wing style when the ball is fast into or near their body

zyu81
08-06-2020, 02:55 PM
It is easy to talk about in the abstract but if we put Fan Zhendong and Timo Boll side by side on video looping to a block, we can get a better idea of what it means. Nigerians also do straight arm loops with intense forearm snap and of course my biase leads me to believe it is ultimately a more powerful forehand and not that different from the European technique if you don't engage the upper arm too much. I think that as great and fantastic Timo Boll is, he likely is leaving quite a bit on the table with his technique. And I don't think the tradeoff is quite what people think it is. People just assume it is.

I think that in general, the main reason this discussion can help an amateur player is that getting more efficient technique is always relative to yourself. It can give you insight into how to improve your technique under various conditions.

That said, your best forehand is your best forehand no matter how you swing it.

I think Boll is the most extreme and obvious example. I'd still say forearm snap is a fundamental part of the loop for most Europeans and Chinese even if Boll doesn't do a ton of it in general. He definitely could be leaving something on the table but it works for him.

Bringing the backswing and hand back "straight arm" definitely has a time and place and it is optimal certain times, no doubt. But I think that perpetuating the idea that it is the only right way gives people the idea they need to do it on every shot to be playing optimally, and that is definitely not the case. There are a lot of situations where you want a shorter backswing. But I could still be missing the point of the discussion since I haven't thought too much into this until now.

NextLevel
08-06-2020, 03:12 PM
I think Boll is the most extreme and obvious example. I'd still say forearm snap is a fundamental part of the loop for most Europeans and Chinese even if Boll doesn't do a ton of it in general. He definitely could be leaving something on the table but it works for him.

Bringing the backswing and hand back "straight arm" definitely has a time and place and it is optimal certain times, no doubt. But I think that perpetuating the idea that it is the only right way gives people the idea they need to do it on every shot to be playing optimally, and that is definitely not the case. There are a lot of situations where you want a shorter backswing. But I could still be missing the point of the discussion since I haven't thought too much into this until now.
I don't think most players bring their backswing back straight arm, even the top Chinese players. Like I said it is a topic that I would like to discuss but it has a lot of nuance and being a lower level player, I am only saying what I see and may miss a lot of nuance. And I will state a lot of things that make people sound stupid even though I know no one is and I am probably not giving enough credit.

The main feature that I see as important is upper arm/elbow control. You need a tight backswing to avoid the upper arm drifting by itself relative to the body rotation.

What the Europeans seemed to notice is that if you backswing along the path of the swing, it is hard to retain tight control of the backswing if your arm is too straight. Often your upper arm will end up going behind your body when you need to hit a really powerful shot. To restrain this, they encourage bent arm strokes to make you line up with the ball. While Kreanga has a straighter arm than most Europeans, he backswings in a similar fashion.

When I look at the Chinese their solution when they want to fix this is to backswing very close to the body with a straight or bent arm to keep the elbow tight. Then they can adapt the size of the stroke on the forward swing as they choose to suit their body usage, footwork and leverage.

This is what I see on their practice loops as everyone wants to hit straight balls in practice as they want to hit multiple shots and not tax their practice partners too much. In matches it can be different.

Okay, since I have entered the Hornets nest, tell me why I am wrong.

zyu81
08-06-2020, 03:25 PM
I don't think most players bring their backswing back straight arm, even the top Chinese players. Like I said it is a topic that I would like to discuss but it has a lot of nuance and being a lower level player, I am only saying what I see and may miss a lot of nuance. And I will state a lot of things that make people sound stupid even though I know no one is and I am probably not giving enough credit.

The main feature that I see as important is upper arm/elbow control. You need a tight backswing to avoid the upper arm drifting by itself relative to the body rotation.

What the Europeans seemed to notice is that if you backswing along the path of the swing, it is hard to retain tight control of the backswing if your arm is too straight. Often your upper arm will end up going behind your body when you need to hit a really powerful shot. To restrain this, they encourage bent arm strokes to make you line up with the ball. While Kreanga has a straighter arm than most Europeans, he backswings in a similar fashion.

When I look at the Chinese their solution when they want to fix this is to backswing very close to the body with a straight or bent arm to keep the elbow tight. Then they can adapt the size of the stroke on the forward swing as they choose to suit their body usage, footwork and leverage.

This is what I see on their practice loops as everyone wants to hit straight balls in practice as they want to hit multiple shots and not tax their practice partners too much. In matches it can be different.

Okay, since I have entered the Hornets nest, tell me why I am wrong.

I don't think any of what you said is wrong, nor was I trying to imply that in my earlier posts if you got that impression. I guess the part you highlighted is what I've been trying to convey as a good rule of thumb that anyone can take and adapt for themselves. Maybe I am interpreting backswing in a different way than others. But when I say backswing, I think the general idea is to bring the arm back, without taking the elbow too far away from the body, and extending the forearm back as far as you are comfortable with or as the situation dictates. Whether that results in the arm being fully extended or only partially (due to the degree of how far back you pull the forearm to extend the elbow towards 180 degrees) can vary shot to shot, person to person, etc. I don't know if my blabber is making sense here...

This stuff is easier to explain in person than over text...

brokenball
08-06-2020, 04:19 PM
I know that trying to learn how to play a sport by breaking down the physics or science of it, is not the way to go.
Physical ability is definitely most important. People are adaptable and will eventually find the right way given enough time. However, there is way too much bad information on these forums. Knowing the physics of TT will help you know what to achieve faster rather than a slow long learning process.

There is a video of Dan playing an Omron robot. Do you think that robot learned to play by trial and error?
I think the robot can read or estimate spin now. If so, the only limitation the robot has is mechanical.

zeio
08-06-2020, 04:23 PM
Boll would've achieved more with his right hand (https://youtu.be/Gdp3-6UCrOQ?t=960).

IB66
08-06-2020, 04:28 PM
I don't agree, but the discussion is nuanced. Obviously, Timo Boll is one of the best players in the world, so it is all relative. But I do think that most Europeans are limited in the technical options they can bring to a ball when they need to put it away. Usually, the Koreans and Chinese don't have this problem.

Well, I really opened a can of worms !!!

These days, as with all sports, running gaits, swing paths, kicking actions, are heavily analysed by coaches and scientists so that the ‘best’ way to achieve the end result is formulated, A lot of the time it’s small gains, if you can make 5 small gains in your technique, especially when playing at the highest level, this can result in winning more matches. This also includes the ‘mental’ side of things not just the physical. ( & there are mental techniques that can be used)

I’m the type of person that likes / needs to know why we do things in certain ways, so if a coach asks me to turn less, or drop my right shoulder, I’ll try to do as asked but will want an explanation of why and what’s the benefit of doing so !!!!! Sometimes I think my coach is probably thinking ‘just do it and you’ll see’ !!!!! But you don’t really ‘learn’.

the starting position with the bat being almost behind, has at least 1 small gain, it loads the weight onto the back foot slightly better, and I mean slightly !!!

As for finishing off points, I’m with you on that NextLevel, but I definitely think the Europeans are learning and adapting accordingly and pretty quickly!!!!
:D:)

zyu81
08-06-2020, 04:31 PM
Well, I really opened a can of worms !!!

These days, as with all sports, running gaits, swing paths, kicking actions, are heavily analysed by coaches and scientists so that the ‘best’ way to achieve the end result is formulated, A lot of the time it’s small gains, if you can make 5 small gains in your technique, especially when playing at the highest level, this can result in winning more matches. This also includes the ‘mental’ side of things not just the physical. ( & there are mental techniques that can be used)

I’m the type of person that likes / needs to know why we do things in certain ways, so if a coach asks me to turn less, or drop my right shoulder, I’ll try to do as asked but will want an explanation of why and what’s the benefit of doing so !!!!! Sometimes I think my coach is probably thinking ‘just do it and you’ll see’ !!!!! But you don’t really ‘learn’.

the starting position with the bat being almost behind, has at least 1 small gain, it loads the weight onto the back foot slightly better, and I mean slightly !!!

As for finishing off points, I’m with you on that NextLevel, but I definitely think the Europeans are learning and adapting accordingly and pretty quickly!!!!
:D:)

It's a good can of worms to open. At the least, it's more interesting than discussing equipment changes all the time.

I will say, the running gaits/swing paths/etc. which you mention, that is true, but it is also nuanced as well. Those are analyses that are typically done on already elite athletes who are looking for the tiniest extra edge or to prevent injury. So while breaking down these small biomechanics can help, it shouldn't be thought of as the end-all-be-all of improvement... at least for most of us here.

IB66
08-06-2020, 04:38 PM
Boll would've achieved more with his right hand (https://youtu.be/Gdp3-6UCrOQ?t=960).

Is it straighter ????? !!!!!!!!:)

yogi_bear
08-06-2020, 05:34 PM
Physical ability is definitely most important. People are adaptable and will eventually find the right way given enough time. However, there is way too much bad information on these forums. Knowing the physics of TT will help you know what to achieve faster rather than a slow long learning process.

There is a video of Dan playing an Omron robot. Do you think that robot learned to play by trial and error?
I think the robot can read or estimate spin now. If so, the only limitation the robot has is mechanical.

You are giving too much credit to your arguement and no, active learning of physics
is not needed but body mechanics and anatomy are better to learn to be a good player.

zeio
08-06-2020, 05:35 PM
Physical ability is definitely most important. People are adaptable and will eventually find the right way given enough time. However, there is way too much bad information on these forums. Knowing the physics of TT will help you know what to achieve faster rather than a slow long learning process.

There is a video of Dan playing an Omron robot. Do you think that robot learned to play by trial and error?
I think the robot can read or estimate spin now. If so, the only limitation the robot has is mechanical.

Yes. Time to brush up your Japanese.

https://www.omron.co.jp/technology/omrontechnics/2019/20190510-asai.html

ロボットが卓球を行うためには、高速高精度なピン球のセンシング技術やラケットの動作計画技術、高精度なコントロール技術が要求されるため、ロボティクスの研究題材として古くから研究されている3)。特に近年では、高精度な返球をするための、ラケットの動作計画技術が盛んに研究されている。回転したピン球を返球するため、回転速度の影響を考慮した空力モデルや衝突モデルを用いたモデルベースのアプローチ4,5)や、ラケットの動作とピン球の軌跡の因果関係に着目した学習ベースのアプローチ6)などが提案されている。さらに、人のような柔軟なラケットの動作を実現するため、人によるダイレクトティーチングで生成された動作を強化学習することで返球精度を高めるアプローチ7)や、トルクの最適性を制約条件に組み込んだ最適制御問題のアプローチ8)などが提案されている。

As for "too much bad information on these forums," you don't get it Pete, that doesn't matter. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFcb-XF1RPQ)

And one of the things I've always found is that...you've got to start with the player experience and work backwards to the technique/physics. You can't start with the technique/physics and try to figure out where you're gonna try to hit it... (https://youtu.be/oeqPrUmVz-o?t=105)

yogi_bear
08-06-2020, 05:41 PM
Aside from the ones i mentioned, physical conditioning, study of techniques and situation practice are bettwr to learn than physics. By the way, pnachtawey, have you developed a college level player that has a decent competitive level that has actively been taught the physicsand reached higher levels of play from development to competition?

zyu81
08-06-2020, 05:53 PM
Yes. Time to brush up your Japanese.

https://www.omron.co.jp/technology/omrontechnics/2019/20190510-asai.html


As for "too much bad information on these forums," you don't get it Pete, that doesn't matter. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFcb-XF1RPQ)

And one of the things I've always found is that...you've got to start with the player experience and work backwards to the technique/physics. You can't start with the technique/physics and try to figure out where you're gonna try to hit it... (https://youtu.be/oeqPrUmVz-o?t=105)


:cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool:

IB66
08-06-2020, 06:04 PM
Brushing up on my Japanese is one thing, degree level mathematics as well !!!!!

yogi_bear
08-06-2020, 06:04 PM
:cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool:

He will not believe and will still argue that physocs is better. Though when confronted about actual applications of his ideas he will not be able to produce one. He always thinks that physics is the answer and it is fair to say he is a science driven guy and no problem with it but if he claims to do it in the name of science, surely he has concrete data or experience to do it otherwise, what is science if it is not backed up by facts and by facts i mean things that have aleady been applied and achieved.

IB66
08-06-2020, 06:17 PM
Yes. Time to brush up your Japanese.

https://www.omron.co.jp/technology/omrontechnics/2019/20190510-asai.html


As for "too much bad information on these forums," you don't get it Pete, that doesn't matter. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFcb-XF1RPQ)

And one of the things I've always found is that...you've got to start with the player experience and work backwards to the technique/physics. You can't start with the technique/physics and try to figure out where you're gonna try to hit it... (https://youtu.be/oeqPrUmVz-o?t=105)

not sure I get what you mean by ‘player experience’ ? A player could have been playing for 20yrs with unorthodox technique, doesn’t mean they are inexperienced. Or do you mean asking questions like how long have you been playing ? Have you been coached before ? Etc

zyu81
08-06-2020, 06:25 PM
He will not believe and will still argue that physocs is better. Though when confronted about actual applications of his ideas he will not be able to produce one. He always thinks that physics is the answer and it is fair to say he is a science driven guy and no problem with it but if he claims to do it in the name of science, surely he has concrete data or experience to do it otherwise, what is science if it is not backed up by facts and by facts i mean things that have aleady been applied and achieved.

There is just too much that goes into table tennis - being able to break down what is happening on a simple level isn't going to do much in the way of turning that into playing results. Prodigy kids who get started early don't know a thing about physics, yet they can understand the game... there are also too many variables that go into everything, in the end, the human element is going to dominate the outcomes more than whatever should be happening from a physics or scientific standpoint.

yogi_bear
08-06-2020, 06:30 PM
There is just too much that goes into table tennis - being able to break down what is happening on a simple level isn't going to do much in the way of turning that into playing results. Prodigy kids who get started early don't know a thing about physics, yet they can understand the game... there are also too many variables that go into everything, in the end, the human element is going to dominate the outcomes more than whatever should be happening from a physics or scientific standpoint.
I agree on this and to add, countries like japan, china and germany all have advanced types of coaching and they do not teach physics to their players since pnachtawey thinks it is a better idea? Is he implying that the above teams have not thought of this or it is simply that these teams know from the start that his idea is really not needed?

zyu81
08-06-2020, 06:33 PM
I agree on this and to add, countries like japan, china and germany all have advanced types of coaching and they do not teach physics to their players since pnachtawey thinks it is a better idea? Is he implying that the above teams have not thought of this or it is simply that these teams know from the start that his idea is really not needed?

Who is that? I think you mean brokenball. :confused:

UpSideDownCarl
08-06-2020, 06:43 PM
Hey, you guys should know that brokenball is extremely well respected in his field. [emoji2]


Sent from my NSA SpyPhone from Sector 13D-SR13Z74 Sub Level 29X Fort Meade, Maryland

NextLevel
08-06-2020, 06:51 PM
I don't think any of what you said is wrong, nor was I trying to imply that in my earlier posts if you got that impression. I guess the part you highlighted is what I've been trying to convey as a good rule of thumb that anyone can take and adapt for themselves. Maybe I am interpreting backswing in a different way than others. But when I say backswing, I think the general idea is to bring the arm back, without taking the elbow too far away from the body, and extending the forearm back as far as you are comfortable with or as the situation dictates. Whether that results in the arm being fully extended or only partially (due to the degree of how far back you pull the forearm to extend the elbow towards 180 degrees) can vary shot to shot, person to person, etc. I don't know if my blabber is making sense here...

This stuff is easier to explain in person than over text...

I don't know if it is so much about better for a player than about being unable to change habits formed as a child that got you to a high level. Other than that we likely agree. The thing is that the Chinese approach to me leads to the ability to deliver a wider range of shots than the top European players like Boll and Dima or even Freitas etc. typically do. Whether that is better for the player I don't know but if I was coaching a child, I would try to coach the Chinese approach actively. Fan Zhendong and Ma Long have proven to me that it doesn't compromise your backhand.

NextLevel
08-06-2020, 06:55 PM
There is just too much that goes into table tennis - being able to break down what is happening on a simple level isn't going to do much in the way of turning that into playing results. Prodigy kids who get started early don't know a thing about physics, yet they can understand the game... there are also too many variables that go into everything, in the end, the human element is going to dominate the outcomes more than whatever should be happening from a physics or scientific standpoint.
Yes and this is why I usually like to know the level of the player I am talking to when discussing these issues. It can sound rude or dismissive, but it can be important to get a rough idea of what one is up against when discussing an issue. I don't know any serious player who thinks an explicit understanding of the physics of table tennis improved their strokes. Usually taking such understanding seriously is a trait of an adult learner who tried to learn the sport by adopting theories and language. Most kids got good by copying other kids or adults who are good players. This is probably as one of my friends likes to put it the biggest advantage China has over the rest of the world when it comes to TT development.

yogi_bear
08-06-2020, 06:57 PM
Who is that? I think you mean brokenball. :confused:
That is his old username.

zyu81
08-06-2020, 07:11 PM
Yes and this is why I usually like to know the level of the player I am talking to when discussing these issues. It can sound rude or dismissive, but it can be important to get a rough idea of what one is up against when discussing an issue. I don't know any serious player who thinks an explicit understanding of the physics of table tennis improved their strokes. Usually taking such understanding seriously is a trait of an adult learner who tried to learn the sport by adopting theories and language. Most kids got good by copying other kids or adults who are good players. This is probably as one of my friends likes to put it the biggest advantage China has over the rest of the world when it comes to TT development.

I don't think it's necessarily rude or dismissive... as you talk to people across the skill spectrum you notice there are really big differences in the way they view and interpret things. Taking anonymous posts on the internet at face value is too difficult due to all the inherent biases, language barriers, differences in ways of communicating...

There are a lot of hot topics that I see discussed here for which I also don't know any serious player that would think about those things... I can't think of a single high level player I know who would talk about how the outer or inner Limba versus Koto plies of his/her blade factors into his/her game...maybe inner or outer carbon construction at best...but I think some topics are more obvious than others in regards to how much difference they can make or how much they matter in playing the game.

NextLevel
08-06-2020, 07:18 PM
I don't think it's necessarily rude or dismissive... as you talk to people across the skill spectrum you notice there are really big differences in the way they view and interpret things. Taking anonymous posts on the internet at face value is too difficult due to all the inherent biases, language barriers, differences in ways of communicating...

There are a lot of hot topics that I see discussed here for which I also don't know any serious player that would think about those things... I can't think of a single high level player I know who would talk about how the outer or inner Limba versus Koto plies of his/her blade factors into his/her game...maybe inner or outer carbon construction at best...but I think some topics are more obvious than others in regards to how much difference they can make or how much they matter in playing the game.

Oh I know it is not necessarily rude or dismissive. The problem is that people use it to argue that I am being elitist when the truth is that I started playing serious table tennis about 9 years ago and went from USATT 500-600 to USATT 2000-2100 in about 4 years and have been working on my technique and understanding of higher level table tennis/coaching ever since. So some of my behavior is really me thinking about some of the insights I used to have when I was 1400 or 1700 about how TT had to work. I actually tried to learn from brokenball's physics approach at one time - yes I was that naive.

I don't 100% agree with the plies statement though - top players are pretty aware of such things since they test and design blades/handles, many just don't do it forever or make it a big deal since they know the biggest factor is the training hours. But Freitas is very aware about what blade he is using vs the blade Apolonia is using and why he is not using a Timo Boll ALC instead etc. And of course some players just are so used to a blade that they won't change it unless you pry it out of their dying hands... and then there are people who hit with a few blades in their bag (all the same setup) until they find one they like then they stick with that one for the day.

zyu81
08-06-2020, 07:24 PM
Oh I know it is not necessarily rude or dismissive. The problem is that people use it to argue that I am being elitist when the truth is that I started playing serious table tennis about 9 years ago and went from USATT 500-600 to USATT 2000-2100 in about 4 years and have been working on my technique and understanding of higher level table tennis/coaching ever since. So some of my behavior is really me thinking about some of the insights I used to have when I was 1400 or 1700 about how TT had to work. I actually tried to learn from brokenball's physics approach at one time - yes I was that naive.

I don't 100% agree with the plies statement though - top players are pretty aware of such things since they test and design blades/handles, many just don't do it forever or make it a big deal since they know the biggest factor is the training hours. But Freitas is very aware about what blade he is using vs the blade Apolonia is using and why he is not using a Timo Boll ALC instead etc. And of course some players just are so used to a blade that they won't change it unless you pry it out of their dying hands... and then there are people who hit with a few blades in their bag (all the same setup) until they find one they like then they stick with that one for the day.

Yes, one's perception of the game definitely evolves as you move to new levels and get more experience and exposure to what works and doesn't.

Without picking at straws too much, I am very aware that they can tell differences between blades...going into deep details between different wood types (i.e. a post I saw the other day from a recreational player talking about the Ayous inner core and how it will affect his game) and how they are better for this or that shot or suit this or that playstyle...not so much...never heard any such comments in my time. The level at which some people get into the weeds about some things, wood types and plies being just one example, is part of what you mention in the first part of your post... getting the wrong idea of what is and isn't essential to improvement.

NextLevel
08-06-2020, 07:32 PM
Yes, one's perception of the game definitely evolves as you move to new levels and get more experience and exposure to what works and doesn't.

Without picking at straws too much, I am very aware that they can tell differences between blades...going into deep details between different wood types (i.e. a post I saw the other day from a recreational player talking about the Ayous inner core and how it will affect his game) and how they are better for this or that shot or suit this or that playstyle...not so much...never heard any such comments in my time. The level at which some people get into the weeds about some things, wood types and plies being just one example, is part of what you mention in the first part of your post... getting the wrong idea of what is and isn't essential to improvement.

Agreed - higher level players usually know a few things about their equipment that leads them to believe it works for them. But that is not the same thing as their claiming to be experts about how equipment affects their game.

That said, this still exists:

https://butterflyonline.com/ask-the-experts-stefan-feth-no-193/

IB66
08-06-2020, 07:36 PM
Hi,

the player may not have an explicit understanding of the physics, and sometimes the same goes for the coaches. They have learnt by being told what to do, this right, this is wrong, what you’re doing is good but change this slightly and it will be great etc. Really good coaches will have a good around knowledge and experience of playing table tennis, so they may have a little more knowledge of the physics as well.
watching other players and copying what they do is a great way to learn, and basically that’s what coaches do, they watch learn understand and transfer the knowledge on and use their own experience of having been coached themselves.
If they can improve something then they will.

The physics side of things is becoming more available, it can also help with injuries and how to avoid them, where the strain is placed throughout the body. I suppose the physics side of thing will become a specialist aspect of table tennis and other sports in the future, so a physical conditioning coach will be able and is able to provide specific physical exercise routines that are designed for table tennis and take in other exercise types.

for example ‘pilates’ which I have been told by my old instructor, was originally designed for boxers, to improve core strength and breathing. This has now crossed over to dance, football , general everyday exercise for non sporty people as well. It’s now a varied rather than originally specific sport exercise. You take the best bits of everything and combine.

NextLevel
08-06-2020, 07:38 PM
Hi,

the player may not have an explicit understanding of the physics, and sometimes the same goes for the coaches. They have learnt by being told what to do, this right, this is wrong, what you’re doing is good but change this slightly and it will be great etc. Really good coaches will have a good around knowledge and experience of playing table tennis, so they may have a little more knowledge of the physics as well.
watching other players and copying what they do is a great way to learn, and basically that’s what coaches do, they watch learn understand and transfer the knowledge on and use their own experience of having been coached themselves.
If they can improve something then they will.

The physics side of things is becoming more available, it can also help with injuries and how to avoid them, where the strain is placed throughout the body. I suppose the physics side of thing will become a specialist aspect of table tennis and other sports in the future, so a physical conditioning coach will be able and is able to provide specific physical exercise routines that are designed for table tennis and take in other exercise types.

for example ‘pilates’ which I have been told by my old instructor, was originally designed for boxers, to improve core strength and breathing. This has now crossed over to dance, football , general everyday exercise for non sporty people as well. It’s now a varied rather than originally specific sport exercise. You take the best bits of everything and combine.

What you are calling physics may or may not be the physics you learn in school. You are likely calling a lot of things physics that have little to do with a formal study of the subject.

What Brokenball means is the kind of physics that engineers use not elements of physical fitness or physiotherapy.

IB66
08-06-2020, 08:37 PM
What you are calling physics may or may not be the physics you learn in school. You are likely calling a lot of things physics that have little to do with a formal study of the subject.

What Brokenball means is the kind of physics that engineers use not elements of physical fitness or physiotherapy.

agreed, jumped across subjects!
What I was getting at, is that ‘physics’ applies to everything, and can be applied to other aspects as well.

NextLevel
08-06-2020, 08:47 PM
Glad to see the main topic of the day has moved on!!

Yeah. Until you cheat again...

IB66
08-06-2020, 08:53 PM
Anyway, how are you getting on with the D09C NextLevel ?

yogi_bear
08-06-2020, 11:12 PM
Hi,

the player may not have an explicit understanding of the physics, and sometimes the same goes for the coaches. They have learnt by being told what to do, this right, this is wrong, what you’re doing is good but change this slightly and it will be great etc. Really good coaches will have a good around knowledge and experience of playing table tennis, so they may have a little more knowledge of the physics as well.
watching other players and copying what they do is a great way to learn, and basically that’s what coaches do, they watch learn understand and transfer the knowledge on and use their own experience of having been coached themselves.
If they can improve something then they will.

The physics side of things is becoming more available, it can also help with injuries and how to avoid them, where the strain is placed throughout the body. I suppose the physics side of thing will become a specialist aspect of table tennis and other sports in the future, so a physical conditioning coach will be able and is able to provide specific physical exercise routines that are designed for table tennis and take in other exercise types.

for example ‘pilates’ which I have been told by my old instructor, was originally designed for boxers, to improve core strength and breathing. This has now crossed over to dance, football , general everyday exercise for non sporty people as well. It’s now a varied rather than originally specific sport exercise. You take the best bits of everything and combine.

Its called body mechanics, physical and mental conditioning and other sciences involving human anatomy but not clsssrom physics where you should do the impulse of this and then argue about burning rubber is the only thing that can produce power. Things like those, you get what i mean.

UpSideDownCarl
08-06-2020, 11:12 PM
Hey, I actually really am enjoying the back and forth between Zyu and NextLevel. One thing that is really nice about it is that, as I read it, it seems like the conversation is building, like one point allows the next to go a step further. And, with some give and take I feel like they covered a lot of ground.

I want to talk about physics and equations and mathematical formulas for determining how much of the magnus effect a certain player's loop will have on the ball......

So, for a lot of people, it is true, learning a sport like TT by doing, watching, replicating, FEELING, and repeating motor movements is how most of the real learning in TT happen.

But if a player like brokenball has used the massive amount of physics and engineering training he has to help him understand what he is doing with his racket and how he is imparting spin on the ball, MORE POWER TO HIM.

I think the problem comes when someone tries to insist: "because this works for me, it has to be the same for everybody." Now I have seen recent footage of brokenball and I will say he has improved a lot from 4-6 years ago. He still has a ways to go. But for a guy in his 60s he has really done a good job improving.

So I am not going to knock him for that. And if he has physics equations that will help me understand from a different perspective, some of what I am doing when I contact the ball tangentially, let the ball sink into the sponge so that the topsheet grabs the ball and is stretched and distorted by the ball sinking into the sponge tangentially while the topsheet is grabbing.....and that feeling that happens when the topsheet grabs the ball and distorts.....I am all for extra info. Even how, when the stretched topsheet rebounds creating what sometimes gets called mechanical spin, equations for the speed of the rebound of the topsheet and how that adds extra spin to the ball and effects the spin to speed ration (some of why higher level players get so much more spin than not-as-higher level payers).....Well I don't think I can be hurt by that information.

However, while information like that may help one person and do nothing for another, and while that would not be the standard way one would learn to loop and increase the amount of spin on the ball.....It could be helpful to some to learn that stuff. Studies show imaging (imagining visual imagery of what you are trying to achieve) can really help athletic performance. So, I definitely image, in my head, while I am looping (sometimes) stuff--like what I described above about the ball sinking in, the topsheet grabbing, the topsheet distorting and then rebounding--and I am confident it helps me add more spin to the ball and control the depth of my contact better.

But everyone learns differently so, insisting that one way is the way everyone has to learn is what could get problematic. Obviously something is working for brokenball. Obviously not everyone relates to what works for brokenball. It is also obvious that sometimes someone says the same thing as brokenball in language that is not exactly precise in terms of physics and even reality (often people think in images and metaphors) and we have seen how brokenball likes to bust myths and show people how they are WRONG, so he can get animated when people use words he doesn't appreciate.

A nice example is the word control and how it is used in regards to table tennis equipment: most of us know what is meant when someone says, this blade (or rubber) has good "control". We know the rubber does not have control. We know the rubber does not control anything. We know the control comes from the skill of our hand, arm, stroke mechanics, touch, feel, and neural pathways.....oh, wait, I went into biomechanics and put you to sleep didn't I.....We know we are who exert control over the ball with the racket. And that what is referred to by the word "control" in that context is that:

--for a certain of shot, for a certain level player, a particular rubber makes it easier to control the ball.

So, one rubber may make it easier for one specific player to push, the same rubber may make it easier for that same player to loop. While a higher level player may have way more control responding to spin with a rubber that is much more grippy and spin sensitive because that player uses how he touches the ball, the speed of the racket and the tangential contact to impart spin on the ball and for that player, the spin is what gives control.

And clearly, LP, which are easy to do certain things with, and so, could be said to be easy to control for certain shots, but they would make it be pretty close to impossible to exert control over the ball with LP if you were trying to counterloop vs heavy topspin with them.

Anyway, the reason I bring up the term "control" is, we all have some understanding of what a person means when they use the term no matter how weird and imprecise the term is. But that word "control", I think it is like nails scraping on a chalk board for brokenball because he can't go with the metaphor because the term is technically incorrect.

What am I saying here? Who cares about getting too bound in all the terms. :) I bet brokenball would be fun to have on a goon squad adventure. As long as Der_Echte was there to make sure he got enough chicken and beer in the hustle. :)

UpSideDownCarl
08-06-2020, 11:26 PM
agreed, jumped across subjects!
What I was getting at, is that ‘physics’ applies to everything, and can be applied to other aspects as well.


Its called body mechanics, physical and mental conditioning and other sciences involving human anatomy but not clsssrom physics where you should do the impulse of this and then argue about burning rubber is the only thing that can produce power. Things like those, you get what i mean.

E = mc2

Fc = mac = mv2 /r

ac= v2 /r

x = x 0 + v 0 t + 1/2at2

Vƒ = Vo + at

I = F Δt = ΔM

M = mv

brokenball
08-07-2020, 03:35 AM
You are giving too much credit to your arguement and no, active learning of physics
is not needed but body mechanics and anatomy are better to learn to be a good player.
Obviously everyone can learn to play without using physics. The question is would knowing the physics of TT make learning go a little faster. I say it would. It isn't necessary to get into formulas for most of it. However, there have been some debates that continue and are not resolved yet. There is too much opinion on this forum which is understandable because most people don't want to put the time into really evaluating a rubber, ball or blade like Pathfinderpro did years ago. I could do it. I have the money and resources but I don't have the time.

The Omron robot could use an AI program like Alpha Go or Lela Chess 0. This is similar to the way humans learn.
It is faster to teach the Omron robot by using physics because it would take hundreds of thousands of balls to for the AI to learn to play TT by trial and error whereas the physics is well known and be programmed in. Alpha Go and Lela Chess 0 can learn by playing against themselves and they can play so many games in a few hours whereas it would take the Omron robot weeks or months to learn playing real balls. My point is that physics/math can guide get you to the final goal faster.

brokenball
08-07-2020, 03:44 AM
He will not believe and will still argue that physocs is better. Though when confronted about actual applications of his ideas he will not be able to produce one. He always thinks that physics is the answer and it is fair to say he is a science driven guy and no problem with it but if he claims to do it in the name of science, surely he has concrete data or experience to do it otherwise, what is science if it is not backed up by facts and by facts i mean things that have aleady been applied and achieved.
Don't misquote me. I said that knowing physics will help you train faster and more intelligently. It still takes physical ability and practice.

brokenball
08-07-2020, 04:35 AM
[QUOTE=UpSideDownCarl;319280]Hey, you guys should know that brokenball is extremely well respected in his field. [emoji2]
Yes, thanks USDC. My picture was posted on a Chinese forum for a week for being inducted into an international hall of fame. I think I am the only foreigner ( 外国人, my best transition is external country person) that is a moderator in China. I must admit my moderation abilities are extremely limited but I can make suggestions to the site moderator and they are generally implemented. I am internationally known in my field.

Zeio, I am more famous in China than you are but it is probably good not to attract too much attention these days while in Hong Kong.

You guys have no idea what you have squandered.
I tried explain dwell time and how it can be extended years ago but I got banned for calling someone stupid. Someone claiming to be a school teacher in the UK was claiming that acceleration doesn't cause force. That person never has sit driven a Tesla and accelerated it so hard that he was FORCED back into the chair. I feel sorry for his students.

My company is helping others in the UK with projects. One is a huge grinding arm. This project was botched. If they asked me first I could have done the calculations in a few hours. One is testing for a new train system in the UK. I suggested a change that made a huge increase in the frequency of how they can vibrate the train. Another project was 'Fast and Furious 9' that is being film in studios near or in London. Our controllers are controlling 2 six degree of freedom platforms on which cars will be places. I have seen some of the early video and how it is made but the film probably won't be released until the CCP-virus is under control. The built some amazing rigs for this video.

I/we have a huge problem. People like me are going to retire. It is possible that a small group of well trained people could answer the engineer problems from around the world. I do that now but I wan't to retire.
Meanwhile everyone has opinions on which stroke, rubber, or blade is better and you don't see the big picture.
Are you guys going to be making a big deal about the next rubber 5 years from now even though the COR doesn't change much from the previous 4 generations? Are you still going to believe the same TT myths?
There are much bigger issues today. Who is going to keep the lights on? Have you ever wondered how the very thin layer of wood that covers your blade is made? Do you guys know what rotomodling is? How do you think seamless balls are made. I know.

Der_Echte
08-07-2020, 05:01 AM
Q: How do you keep the flow of Chicken and Beer continually flowing?

A: See Below.

- Win by only a tiny margin from behind without looking like you are taking the initiative
- Be Nice
- Speak their language and be gracious
- Enjoy the Chicken and Beer - share together
- Bring some beer to the club as pre match peace offering... the more German the beer the better

zeio
08-07-2020, 06:22 AM
not sure I get what you mean by ‘player experience’ ? A player could have been playing for 20yrs with unorthodox technique, doesn’t mean they are inexperienced. Or do you mean asking questions like how long have you been playing ? Have you been coached before ? Etc

"Player experience" is a computer science term, most often mentioned in game design. It's about maximizing the experience the player goes through when they play a game.

I'm borrowing the concept here to emphasize the importance of starting from the player's perspective when we talk about equipment and technique.

Below is what happens when you start from a purely physics standpoint, kinematics to be precise. All you need to do is follow the formula to play like Franziska and Niwa.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MO8Gb8LHkeg
https://i.imgur.com/DLkFiRt.png
https://i.imgur.com/CFuPeu7.png

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogeTLjES9vY
https://i.imgur.com/KrELT0m.png
https://i.imgur.com/K5wI5iN.png

bobpuls
08-07-2020, 08:46 AM
Come on C... This is too long..... I will leave it for some lonely night to read it.

yogi_bear
08-07-2020, 12:02 PM
Don't misquote me. I said that knowing physics will help you train faster and more intelligently. It still takes physical ability and practice.

You were the one claiming before that just because you know physics you can be a good coach. I remember that absurd statement you have years ago.

yogi_bear
08-07-2020, 12:08 PM
[QUOTE=UpSideDownCarl;319280]Hey, you guys should know that brokenball is extremely well respected in his field. [emoji2]
Yes, thanks USDC. My picture was posted on a Chinese forum for a week for being inducted into an international hall of fame. I think I am the only foreigner ( 外国人, my best transition is external country person) that is a moderator in China. I must admit my moderation abilities are extremely limited but I can make suggestions to the site moderator and they are generally implemented. I am internationally known in my field.

Zeio, I am more famous in China than you are but it is probably good not to attract too much attention these days while in Hong Kong.

You guys have no idea what you have squandered.
I tried explain dwell time and how it can be extended years ago but I got banned for calling someone stupid. Someone claiming to be a school teacher in the UK was claiming that acceleration doesn't cause force. That person never has sit driven a Tesla and accelerated it so hard that he was FORCED back into the chair. I feel sorry for his students.

My company is helping others in the UK with projects. One is a huge grinding arm. This project was botched. If they asked me first I could have done the calculations in a few hours. One is testing for a new train system in the UK. I suggested a change that made a huge increase in the frequency of how they can vibrate the train. Another project was 'Fast and Furious 9' that is being film in studios near or in London. Our controllers are controlling 2 six degree of freedom platforms on which cars will be places. I have seen some of the early video and how it is made but the film probably won't be released until the CCP-virus is under control. The built some amazing rigs for this video.

I/we have a huge problem. People like me are going to retire. It is possible that a small group of well trained people could answer the engineer problems from around the world. I do that now but I wan't to retire.
Meanwhile everyone has opinions on which stroke, rubber, or blade is better and you don't see the big picture.
Are you guys going to be making a big deal about the next rubber 5 years from now even though the COR doesn't change much from the previous 4 generations? Are you still going to believe the same TT myths?
There are much bigger issues today. Who is going to keep the lights on? Have you ever wondered how the very thin layer of wood that covers your blade is made? Do you guys know what rotomodling is? How do you think seamless balls are made. I know.

You are in the wrong department and you are overextending your importance. You are useful in production and manufacturing aspects of table tennis, that is if you can apply your theories and make good equipment but not in coaching table tennis. I am still asking you a science guy to please show us laymen who do not know physics like you players you taught physics who are actuvely using them and have become competitive players. You have been grbling about these things for years and yet we have to see practical applications and RESULTS.

lasta
08-07-2020, 12:18 PM
I pity Pathfinderpro who put in so much work only to have someone come in and say science is shit.

I pity JRSDallas who posted some meaningful measurements only for it to fall on deaf ears.

The world was flat until someone proved it different, and they killed the guy who said it out loud first.

Don't waste your time Brokenball.

NextLevel
08-07-2020, 01:05 PM
I pity Pathfinderpro who put in so much work only to have someone come in and say science is shit.

I pity JRSDallas who posted some meaningful measurements only for it to fall on deaf ears.

The world was flat until someone proved it different, and they killed the guy who said it out loud first.

Don't waste your time Brokenball.

This is interesting. What result from physics did pathfinder pro find specifically that helped your table tennis? Same with JRSDallas. Thanks.

zyu81
08-07-2020, 01:06 PM
I pity Pathfinderpro who put in so much work only to have someone come in and say science is shit.

I pity JRSDallas who posted some meaningful measurements only for it to fall on deaf ears.

The world was flat until someone proved it different, and they killed the guy who said it out loud first.

Don't waste your time Brokenball.

I wasn't around for brokenball's first rodeo but can you summarize what was said?

My guess is talking about theoretical CORs or rubber capabilities can be right in theory but it really doesn't matter in real life, if 99% of the people posting here can't really put a rubber to it's theoretical limits.

lasta
08-07-2020, 01:36 PM
This is interesting. What result from physics did pathfinder pro find specifically that helped your table tennis? Same with JRSDallas. Thanks.

Both helped during my peak EJ days. Mostly about the approach to forming a hypothesis about how gear "might" feel and perform before buying one. Helped feed my curiosity in a "slightly" more objective way.

I can't say "gear knowledge" made me play better. But it did make me a more informed consumer. And if a custom blade maker asks, I tell them the exact specification of what I need. As I've said before, I'd rather have access to more information than I need, than to have what little information available distorted beyond usefulness.

lasta
08-07-2020, 01:40 PM
I wasn't around for brokenball's first rodeo but can you summarize what was said?

My guess is talking about theoretical CORs or rubber capabilities can be right in theory but it really doesn't matter in real life, if 99% of the people posting here can't really put a rubber to it's theoretical limits.

Actually, its the ball that's the limit, and anyone using any rubber should be able to push it to the limit at least some of the time. I think Brokenball would be able to explain that better. If he's bothered to haha.

NextLevel
08-07-2020, 02:08 PM
Both helped during my peak EJ days. Mostly about the approach to forming a hypothesis about how gear "might" feel and perform before buying one. Helped feed my curiosity in a "slightly" more objective way.

I can't say "gear knowledge" made me play better. But it did make me a more informed consumer. And if a custom blade maker asks, I tell them the exact specification of what I need. As I've said before, I'd rather have access to more information than I need, than to have what little information available distorted beyond usefulness.

I am not clear on how your response differs materially from anything that has been written. The problem you seem focused on is how to evaluate equipment suitability before you can test/use/buy it. This is not the same thing as whether knowledge of physics makes you a better TT player or improves your table tennis.

NextLevel
08-07-2020, 02:11 PM
I wasn't around for brokenball's first rodeo but can you summarize what was said?

My guess is talking about theoretical CORs or rubber capabilities can be right in theory but it really doesn't matter in real life, if 99% of the people posting here can't really put a rubber to it's theoretical limits.

I think you are granting too much even here. Most of the information that you need about using equipment is gained by practicing with it. No one has equations that let's us know what equipment is best suited for them to play their best. And in fact, some people may play better with equipment they don't like to use!

lasta
08-07-2020, 02:23 PM
I am not clear on how your response differs materially from anything that has been written. The problem you seem focused on is how to evaluate equipment suitability before you can test/use/buy it. This is not the same thing as whether knowledge of physics makes you a better TT player or improves your table tennis.

Expanding a little bit, if someone bothered to put me through a motion capture set and told me how I can better sync my muscle groups or approach impact at a more efficient angle, I would be a better player.

Also, being able to evaluate "equipment" to find the kind of feel I like makes me more enthusiastic to play more, and get better.

About the next post, knowing more about equipment would tell you that it doesn't take a lot to get one that let's you play your best. And knowing is better, at least you know what you want to change and how to get that "feel" on your next purchase.

NextLevel
08-07-2020, 02:35 PM
Expanding a little bit, if someone bothered to put me through a motion capture set and told me how I can better sync my muscle groups or approach impact at a more efficient angle, I would be a better player.

Also, being able to evaluate "equipment" to find the kind of feel I like makes me more enthusiastic to play more, and get better.

About the next post, knowing more about equipment would tell you that it doesn't take a lot to get one that let's you play your best. And knowing is better, at least you know what you want to change and how to get that "feel" on your next purchase.

I hate to ask this but what is your TT playing level? And have you actually coached players before?

I was talking to an international coach recently and asked him what I should do if I play the ball to someone on the backhand and I can't go to the forehand but I need to generate errors. He said that I should move the ball around. He said that some people would say to use spin variation but he told me that if he coached a pro in a match and told him to vary the spin, the pro would probably wonder if the coach had ever played table tennis at a good level before.

By the way, people can do everything you are saying without motion capture. Coaches do it all the time just not in the way you are saying it for many reasons... I think what I am trying to say is "where is the physics in any of this???"

lasta
08-07-2020, 02:50 PM
I hate to ask this but what is your TT playing level? And have you actually coached players before?

I was talking to an international coach recently and asked him what I should do if I play the ball to someone on the backhand and I can't go to the forehand but I need to generate errors. He said that I should move the ball around. He said that some people would say to use spin variation but he told me that if he coached a pro in a match and told him to vary the spin, the pro would probably wonder if the coach had ever played table tennis at a good level before.

By the way, people can do everything you are saying without motion capture. Coaches do it all the time just not in the way you are saying it for many reasons...

~8 years total playing time with 3 sabbaticals in between. Not a coach. But how is this relevant?

People can do a lot of things differently, but how is knowing more detrimental?

UpSideDownCarl
08-07-2020, 02:53 PM
Expanding a little bit, if someone bothered to put me through a motion capture set and told me how I can better sync my muscle groups or approach impact at a more efficient angle, I would be a better player.

This is better looked at in the field of movement, movement theory, and motor learning.

I did a decent amount of study of movement theory. It helps me with my work. A lot of lay people and fitness type people always seem to want to know what muscles engage in a movement pattern. This can really hinder the movement process.

So, in this one class, I remember there was a person who kept asking, what muscles do this action. It was the same question being asked over and over for different movements. The teacher, after answering multiple times, got frustrated and said: "Do you see this movement:" and he stood up from his chair and sat back down. Then he did it again, and a third time. Then he said, "it takes over 180 and muscles, many acting in synchronously, many acting antagonistically, to create that movement. If we had to think of contracting the muscles at the right time, we all would have been eaten by predators eons ago. You want to think of the movement pattern. Your brain, your nervous system understands the movement pattern. It knows what a good movement pattern looks like. Educate yourself on the image of the movement pattern you want to create and the muscles that are supposed to engage will do what they are supposed to at the correct time."

There is very practical application of movement theory. This is also why shadow training while looking in a mirror to see the movement you are doing can really help improve movement patterns for TT. You can see how things should be changed. You can see how what you are doing does not look like what you thought you were doing instantly because of the mirror. This really can help. But of course, only to a certain extent. Ball feel is more important. :)

lasta
08-07-2020, 03:01 PM
This is better looked at in the field of movement, movement theory, and motor learning.

I did a decent amount of study of movement theory. It helps me with my work. A lot of lay people and fitness type people always seem to want to know what muscles engage in a movement pattern. This can really hinder the movement process.

So, in this one class, I remember there was a person who kept asking, what muscles do this action. It was the same question being asked over and over for different movements. The teacher, after answering multiple times, got frustrated and said: "Do you see this movement:" and he stood up from his chair and sat back down. Then he did it again, and a third time. Then he said, "it takes over 180 and muscles, many acting in synchronously, many acting antagonistically, to create that movement. If we had to think of contracting the muscles at the right time, we all would have been eaten by predators eons ago. You want to think of the movement pattern. Your brain, your nervous system understands the movement pattern. It knows what a good movement pattern looks like. Educate yourself on the image of the movement pattern you want to create and the muscles that are supposed to engage will do what they are supposed to at the correct time."

There is very practical application of movement theory. This is also why shadow training while looking in a mirror to see the movement you are doing can really help improve movement patterns for TT. You can see how things should be changed. You can see how what you are doing does not look like what you thought you were doing instantly because of the mirror. This really can help. But of course, only to a certain extent. Ball feel is more important. :)

This is a great response, thanks. I know nothing about movement theory. If someone who knows about it and tells me its more productive to focus on intended effect and let the rest naturally balance out, then I learned something useful.

But it takes someone to know the theory to point out its application. If I had the willingness to learn that theory, it won't be detrimental.

zyu81
08-07-2020, 03:12 PM
Both helped during my peak EJ days. Mostly about the approach to forming a hypothesis about how gear "might" feel and perform before buying one. Helped feed my curiosity in a "slightly" more objective way.

I can't say "gear knowledge" made me play better. But it did make me a more informed consumer. And if a custom blade maker asks, I tell them the exact specification of what I need. As I've said before, I'd rather have access to more information than I need, than to have what little information available distorted beyond usefulness.

Didn't you tell me recently that "anyone who knows anything would tell you that the differences between MX-P and T05 don't mean sh*t in effective play"?

lasta
08-07-2020, 03:19 PM
Didn't you tell me recently that "anyone who knows anything would tell you that the differences between MX-P and T05 don't mean sh*t in effective play"?

If you are going to quote, at least have the courtesy to quote correctly. "Any experienced player will know the subtle differences between MXP and Tenergy don't mean sh!t in effective play. ".

You can use a lot of similar stuff to similar effect. Knowing more lets you choose something that feels better which is more more personal. Or are you trying to imply something else?

NextLevel
08-07-2020, 03:20 PM
~8 years total playing time with 3 sabbaticals in between. Not a coach. But how is this relevant?

People can do a lot of things differently, but how is knowing more detrimental?

It helps me place your statements in context. My point is that nothing you are talking about requires an understanding of textbook physics. Carl didn't get training in physics, he got training in how to use the body better. When I coach I am trying to tell people how to get more from using their body parts a certain way.

Brokenball is not talking about how to use the body better, he is talking about knowledge of the physics of materials and collisions. People who use speed glue didn't know physics, they just stumbled onto the practice by accident. And even the people who design rubbers still have to test the rubber. Most of the information is in using the equipment not on your knowledge of physics.

Der_Echte
08-07-2020, 03:28 PM
I think you are granting too much even here. Most of the information that you need about using equipment is gained by practicing with it. No one has equations that let's us know what equipment is best suited for them to play their best. And in fact, some people may play better with equipment they don't like to use!

I can testify personally that TTD member ERM got me to play a much slower wooden blade (the Persson Power Play) for a year... I absolutely did NOT like those hollow handles (he got me a few solid handle ones later), I did NOT like 82 gram weight for blades, did not like the slower top end... blah blah blah could list a dozen things I didn't like.

However, I couldn't argue against facts and evidence. I could see an immediate improvement in opening loop consistency without any noticeable drop in quality. Overall, in a lot of my shots, a year with that blade did me good, and if I can manage to play in the coming year, playing wood blades (the ones Nate has built for me) will do so again with softer rubber.

That is my personal accumulated experience with the statement from NL I made large in blue from his quote.

I would agree, sometimes, you just realize you play better with something you may not like.

To take it a step further, sometimes, maybe often, a player will NOT LIKE discovering he or she is not playing like they think they are and are not winning and losing points like they think they are.

zyu81
08-07-2020, 03:36 PM
If you are going to quote, at least have the courtesy to quote correctly. "Any experienced player will know the subtle differences between MXP and Tenergy don't mean sh!t in effective play. ".

You can use a lot of similar stuff to similar effect. Knowing more lets you choose something that feels better which is more more personal. Or are you trying to imply something else?

Apologies for the misquote, but I don't think my version of the quote functionally differs from what you were saying. Inexperienced players generally don't know much.

The reason I ask is, I am wondering if your research and theories led you to the conclusion that all rubbers within a certain performance class have no functional differences and the differences are purely personal preference?

UpSideDownCarl
08-07-2020, 03:38 PM
.....s more productive to focus on intended effect and let the rest naturally balance out, then I learned something useful.

Perhaps this is just language and does not matter. I am not sure what you mean by "intended effect". But I think it may be beside the point from what I was talking about.

Let me see if I can explain more: Usually when someone is performing a movement pattern inefficiently (wasted effort actually precludes good form) some of the issue is because their brain and nervous system understand the movement incompletely or incorrectly. One of the interesting things with this, with simpler movement patterns, when you replace an inefficient movement pattern with a more efficient one, the nervous system knows instantly and after repeating several times, it won't go back to the less efficient pattern unless under stress. Once the more efficient movement pattern is performed enough times, it won't go back at all.

So, if you can get the brain to understand a more efficient movement pattern, then get the brain to have a good image of the more efficient movement pattern, then get the body to practice that pattern enough times, the pattern sticks and the nervous system knows what to do.

With a table tennis stroke, things are a lot more complicated because a table tennis stroke is not one action at a time. Your lower body and upper body are actually doing things that counterbalance each other and you could sort of say they are in opposition to each other. While you rotate your upper body forward and to the left, your right leg presses down, back and to the right. The arm is synchronized with the legs, torso, hips, chest, but the movement is actually at least 3 moments from the shoulder joint [(glenohumeral joint, MOG, glenohumeral joint is the main shoulder joint; but there are also the acromioclavicular joint and the sternoclavicular joint, so, three joints)] the forearm movement, and the movement of the wrist. The movement of the wrist is much more complicated for a shakehand player than a penhold player because the penhold grip makes it so you can use the wrist mechanically, how your wrist is designed (flexion and extension).

So, because of how complicated a TT stroke is, it can take a lot of practice hours to change one part of the stroke. And then when you change another aspect of the stroke, it can throw everything out of whack before the stroke improves. I guess the other thing that can make improving technique in a table tennis stroke so complicated is, you do always have to adjust the stroke so the blade face intercepts the ball mid-flight.

This is also why, often older players, instead of having a stroke, line up their racket in the trajectory of the ball and push their racket forward to ensure contact which is very different than having a real stroke where your racket makes a semi-circular motion and the only point where the racket's path and the ball's path collide is on contact. This is why my friend the tennis coach (not table tennis) talked so much about skills of tracking and intercepting the ball. For adult learners the skill of doing this while keeping the form of a stroke can take a while to happen.

But part of why kids learn so fast is they do, without realizing observe role models and model form from them very quickly. And without knowing why, those kids can see better movement patterns over not as good movement patterns without realizing what they are doing. Kids are like learning sponges. :)

Adults can see better form too. It is just harder for them to model it. Because, as we get older, we have so many ingrained patterns of movement that we don't realize are there that hold us back from changing form.

This is also related to why, someone who trained as a kid say: 6-15 and stopped playing till they were 35, they still may end up having good strokes and good technique without having played for all those years.

lasta
08-07-2020, 03:55 PM
Apologies for the misquote, but I don't think my version of the quote functionally differs from what you were saying. Inexperienced players generally don't know much.

The reason I ask is, I am wondering if your research and theories led you to the conclusion that all rubbers within a certain performance class have no functional differences and the differences are purely personal preference?

"anyone who knows anything" can be perceived as condescending. I also apologize if my response was too direct.

I did not do research. I only expressed that I appreciate those that did, and taking my understanding of their work helped point the way in my equipment choices.

As for performance limits, this article demonstrates (https://www.ittfeducation.com/wp-content/uploads/resources/199408014%20-%20%20Tiefenbacher%20-%20Impact.pdf) that even an allround blade is able to return a bounce close to a block of marble at high impact. Any material will only affect how much (less) energy is lost. Also, that all rubbers are dissipators of energy.

Knowing this wouldn't hurt any (consumer). And with a bit of their own EJ'ing, might come to the understanding that all the latest and greatest are just marketing.

I have to thank Brokenball for quoting this somewhere for me to read it.

zyu81
08-07-2020, 04:06 PM
"anyone who knows anything" can be perceived as condescending. I also apologize if my response was too direct.

I did not do research. I only expressed that I appreciate those that did, and taking my understanding of their work helped point the way in my equipment choices.

As for performance limits, this article demonstrates (https://www.ittfeducation.com/wp-content/uploads/resources/199408014%20-%20%20Tiefenbacher%20-%20Impact.pdf) that even an allround blade is able to return a bounce close to a block of marble at high impact. Any material will only affect how much (less) energy is lost. Also, that all rubbers are dissipators of energy.

I saw your comment pre-edit. So, would you take back your previous statements about MX-P and T05 having no differences in effective play?

lasta
08-07-2020, 04:13 PM
I saw your comment pre-edit. So, would you take back your previous statements about MX-P and T05 having no differences in effective play?

No need. At high impact, both should be roughly equal. At lower impact, any differences can be adjusted with getting used to. I don't personally think the low impact performance between the two rubbers are huge. If an player's experience/technique is sound, they should be able to play effectively with either.

zyu81
08-07-2020, 04:28 PM
No need. At high impact, both should be roughly equal. At lower impact, any differences can be adjusted with getting used to. I don't personally think the low impact performance between the two rubbers are huge. If an player's experience/technique is sound, they should be able to play effectively with either.

And there is a difference between playing effectively versus playing optimally, right? You can't simplify the whole of competitive gameplay to "high impact" and "low impact" situations.

Der_Echte
08-07-2020, 04:29 PM
This is a great response, thanks. I know nothing about movement theory. If someone who knows about it and tells me its more productive to focus on intended effect and let the rest naturally balance out, then I learned something useful.

But it takes someone to know the theory to point out its application. If I had the willingness to learn that theory, it won't be detrimental.

The kind of discussion we are having in this regard is SO WAY under-discussed and not yet well understood among memebrs.

This is why you see me go apeshyt when TTD goes Goo-Goo Ga-Ga apeshyt on the equipment fanboy threads and "Scold" members for not contributing, liking, or commenting on "More Important / Relevant" matters like these.

I may be an ape... so send the Goon Squad after me, put me in a cage on the next train to the ape headquarters labor camp.

lasta
08-07-2020, 04:35 PM
And there is a difference between playing effectively versus playing optimally, right? You can't simplify the whole of competitive gameplay to "high impact" and "low impact" situations.

Yes you are right.

Equipment is only one part. A player will likely get closer to playing optimally when they are in tune with their gear. Changing from MXP to T05 or vice versa will not mean they can't play as effectively.

yogi_bear
08-07-2020, 04:37 PM
Expanding a little bit, if someone bothered to put me through a motion capture set and told me how I can better sync my muscle groups or approach impact at a more efficient angle, I would be a better player.

Also, being able to evaluate "equipment" to find the kind of feel I like makes me more enthusiastic to play more, and get better.

About the next post, knowing more about equipment would tell you that it doesn't take a lot to get one that let's you play your best. And knowing is better, at least you know what you want to change and how to get that "feel" on your next purchase.

It is more on sports science and body mechanics not the physics context that brokenball is referring to.

zyu81
08-07-2020, 04:37 PM
Yes you are right.

Equipment is only one part. A player will likely get closer to playing optimally when they are in tune with their gear. Changing from MXP to T05 or vice versa will not mean they can't play as effectively.

But it may mean they can't play as optimally. Or were Freitas and Apolonia were not skilled enough to get in tune with MX-P?

lasta
08-07-2020, 04:43 PM
But it may mean they can't play as optimally. Or were Freitas and Apolonia were not skilled enough to get in tune with MX-P?

You mean those players who changed sponsors because they didn't like being forced to use something different?

That's right. Professionals probably value familiarity, if they are used to one rubber and someone asks them to change to something that "feels" different. They reject that change. But if they had started with the other rubber or committed to switching/acclimatizing, I doubt their performance would be different.

zyu81
08-07-2020, 04:52 PM
You mean those players who changed sponsors because they didn't like being forced to use something different?

That's right. Professionals probably value familiarity, if they are used to one rubber and someone asks them to change to something that "feels" different. They reject that change. But if they had started with the other rubber or committed to switching/acclimatizing, I doubt their performance would be different.

So you think that Freitas did not give a fair shake to Tibhar rubbers to try to adjust, despite having been sponsored by them for many years? And if pro players value familiarity, why don't players who were previously sponsored by non-Butterfly companies stay with their old rubbers after switching to Butterfly sponsorship?

Do you know have any clue how equipment sponsorships work? I ask not condescendingly, but honestly, because it sounds like you are guessing a lot here and don't know how things actually work. The "committing to switching/acclimating" portion you mention is a mandatory and major part of the process. You really think players can just come into a new company and never even attempt to switch to their equipment?

zyu81
08-07-2020, 05:11 PM
Sure, pro players value familiarity, but they value familiarity and more importantly, performance. You cannot apply these generalized adages however you wish to determine truth.

If pro players valued nothing but familiarity, why didn't Dima, who was sponsored by DONIC for many years before and after the release of Tenergy, stick with his DONIC rubbers rather than using Viscaria and Tenergy hidden by edge tape for the longest time? Why has Koki Niwa switched blades countless times over his career? Why is Jun Mizutani in recent years going back and forth between straight and flared handles? Why have pros overwhelming switched to Tenergy 05 Hard/Dignics series rubbers in the last two years, rather than sticking with the original Tenergy series that they are very familiar with?

lasta
08-07-2020, 05:13 PM
So you think that Freitas did not give a fair shake to Tibhar rubbers to try to adjust, despite having been sponsored by them for many years? And if pro players value familiarity, why don't players who were previously sponsored by non-Butterfly companies stay with their old rubbers after switching to Butterfly sponsorship?

Do you know have any clue how equipment sponsorships work? I ask not condescendingly, but honestly, because it sounds like you are guessing a lot here and don't know how things actually work. The "committing to switching/acclimating" portion you mention is a mandatory and major part of the process. You really think players can just come into a new company and never even attempt to switch to their equipment?

Yes, I was guessing. But, please do enlighten me on how your sponsorship works. I have to pay for my own stuff. And on the occasions that I do crack one of my favorites, I know exactly how to get one tailored to my preferences. Any none-identical characteristics, I can adjust well enough.

yogi_bear
08-07-2020, 05:15 PM
So you think that Freitas did not give a fair shake to Tibhar rubbers to try to adjust, despite having been sponsored by them for many years? And if pro players value familiarity, why don't players who were previously sponsored by non-Butterfly companies stay with their old rubbers after switching to Butterfly sponsorship?

Do you know have any clue how equipment sponsorships work? I ask not condescendingly, but honestly, because it sounds like you are guessing a lot here and don't know how things actually work. The "committing to switching/acclimating" portion you mention is a mandatory and major part of the process. You really think players can just come into a new company and never even attempt to switch to their equipment?

i should have qouted you and lasta's comments but it seems only yours is showing but this is for lasta.

Top players are not forced to change their equipment.
1. waldner used to play with Tenergy 05 and so does dima and dima at one time even used h3 national but came back to T05.
2. Kong Linghui changed back to using globe 999 national after trying Butterfly Tackifire Special.
3. Hugo Calderano was using his old blade even he was with Xiom already and not until recently he is using the HUgo HAL blade which he only switched to recently since he is very picky on equipment.
4. and how about the other members of the CNT who uses different equipment than they are being advertised using.

The list goes on but point is they MAY or MAY NOT try the brand that they are representing but if that affects their game they are not obliged to.

lasta
08-07-2020, 05:16 PM
Why have pros overwhelming switched to Tenergy 05 Hard/Dignics series rubbers in the last two years, rather than sticking with the original Tenergy series that they are very familiar with?

My guess on this? Sponsor wants to sell more stuff, "its different, but you might like it", they committed.

NextLevel
08-07-2020, 05:16 PM
Top players are not forced to change their equipment.
1. waldner used to play with Tenergy 05 and so does dima and dima at one time even used h3 national but came back to T05.
2. Kong Linghui changed back to using globe 999 national after trying Butterfly Tackifire Special.
3. Hugo Calderano was using his old blade even he was with Xiom already and not until recently he is using the HUgo HAL blade which he only switched to recently since he is very picky on equipment.
4. and how about the other members of the CNT who uses different equipment than they are being advertised using.

The list goes on but point is they MAY or MAY NOT try the brand that they are representing but if that affects their game they are not obliged to.

I think you are oversimplifying the issue - it always depends on what they negotiate in their contract.

yogi_bear
08-07-2020, 05:22 PM
I think you are oversimplifying the issue - it always depends on what they negotiate in their contract.
it all comes down to the contract yes but reality comes in wherein companies also do not want their players decrease in performance just because they switched to a different equipment. HUgo Calderano for once was not forced by Xiom to switch everything to Xiom though he is using an all Xiom blade and rubbers now.

zyu81
08-07-2020, 05:23 PM
Top players are not forced to change their equipment.
1. waldner used to play with Tenergy 05 and so does dima and dima at one time even used h3 national but came back to T05.
2. Kong Linghui changed back to using globe 999 national after trying Butterfly Tackifire Special.
3. Hugo Calderano was using his old blade even he was with Xiom already and not until recently he is using the HUgo HAL blade which he only switched to recently since he is very picky on equipment.
4. and how about the other members of the CNT who uses different equipment than they are being advertised using.

The list goes on but point is they MAY or MAY NOT try the brand that they are representing but if that affects their game they are not obliged to.

Companies are flexible. An immediate change, especially when there are major tournaments, is not expected, as this was the case for Hugo from Cornilleau to Xiom. After some period of time, you are generally expected to be using that companies equipment. You may be thinking of likeness/advertising/clothing sponsorships as well. STIGA is not seriously expecting Wang Manyu to be using their equipment.

When you are an absolute legend or top 5 player, things may be different. So your first two bullet points for players who played decades ago does not disprove the general idea of what I am saying. Forthe vast majority of sponsored players, what I said is true. And if you look at the original context of what lasta said and how this came up, I don't think you would be arguing this point. The point is that, players have sufficient opportunities to try their sponsor's equipment, and if they had liked it more than the rest, they would be using it.

yogi_bear
08-07-2020, 05:24 PM
My guess on this? Sponsor wants to sell more stuff, "its different, but you might like it", they committed.
Because they are in a level wherein they can use Dignics effectively and also the new rubbers matched their gameplays??

zyu81
08-07-2020, 05:24 PM
My guess on this? Sponsor wants to sell more stuff, "its different, but you might like it", they committed.

"Professionals probably value familiarity, if they are used to one rubber and someone asks them to change to something that "feels" different. They reject that change. "


Remember 15 minutes ago, when you said this? LMAO.

yogi_bear
08-07-2020, 05:26 PM
Companies are flexible. An immediate change, especially when there are major tournaments, is not expected, as this was the case for Hugo from Cornilleau to Xiom. After some period of time, you are generally expected to be using that companies equipment. You may be thinking of likeness/advertising/clothing sponsorships as well. STIGA is not seriously expecting Wang Manyu to be using their equipment.

When you are an absolute legend or top 5 player, things may be different. So your first two bullet points for players who played decades ago does not disprove the general idea of what I am saying. Forthe vast majority of sponsored players, what I said is true. And if you look at the original context of what lasta said and how this came up, I don't think you would be arguing this point. The point is that, players have sufficient opportunities to try their sponsor's equipment, and if they had liked it more than the rest, they would be using it.

As what I have said on top, supposedly yours and lasta's post were qouted and only yours show up. i posted this in response to lasta's.

lasta
08-07-2020, 05:33 PM
"Professionals probably value familiarity, if they are used to one rubber and someone asks them to change to something that "feels" different. They reject that change. "


Remember 15 minutes ago, when you said this? LMAO.

If they don't like the different feel they reject it. If they try and like it, they commit? What's wrong with the logic?

Go ahead and tell me how you balance commercial interest and personal preferences when your sponsor asks you if you want to change.

zyu81
08-07-2020, 05:35 PM
I think I've had enough of your guesses, Lasta. Hopefully the sub-discussion between Yogi and I can be of interest and maybe add some facts to your theories.

NextLevel
08-07-2020, 05:35 PM
it all comes down to the contract yes but reality comes in wherein companies also do not want their players decrease in performance just because they switched to a different equipment. HUgo Calderano for once was not forced by Xiom to switch everything to Xiom though he is using an all Xiom blade and rubbers now.

They are forced to switch - sometimes, players switch handles so they can use blades they like while keeping their sponsorship requirements intact. Any exceptions are in the contract - it isn't about your playing level. Many players go to a different sponsor and use equipment they may not love because the sponsorship dollars they get are more. Butterfly doesn't need more than Timo and Harimoto to sell rubbers. Most players below that are unlikely to get deals as good as those guys. So someone who may like to use Tenergy but gets paid more by Xiom wil have to use Xiom if he wants the money. While ESN has closed the gap, there are still different opinions about what all this means.

yogi_bear
08-07-2020, 05:41 PM
They are forced to switch - sometimes, players switch handles so they can use blades they like while keeping their sponsorship requirements intact. Any exceptions are in the contract - it isn't about your playing level. Many players go to a different sponsor and use equipment they may not love because the sponsorship dollars they get are more. Butterfly doesn't need more than Timo and Harimoto to sell rubbers. Most players below that are unlikely to get deals as good as those guys. So someone who may like to use Tenergy but gets paid more by Xiom wil have to use Xiom if he wants the money. While ESN has closed the gap, there are still different opinions about what all this means.

switching your handle to your brand is not entirely correct in saying that it is a different equipment. Also, your player ranking does affect what you can ask in a contract. your assumption that all are forced is not entirely correct.

yogi_bear
08-07-2020, 05:54 PM
Can I just ask how do you guys know all this stuff about professionals and contracts?

Do any of you know any current professional players?
Are there any current professional players on the forum who could enlighten us?

Is it possible that some professionals can switch equipment without worrying too much and maybe others are very sensitive.

I read somewhere that when a pro tries a new blade they have about 10 of the same blade try them all and pick the 3 they like best!
i am still in contact with companies and have insider info. other things speak for themselves.

zyu81
08-07-2020, 05:56 PM
Can I just ask how do you guys know all this stuff about professionals and contracts?

Do any of you know any current professional players?
Are there any current professional players on the forum who could enlighten us?

Is it possible that some professionals can switch equipment without worrying too much and maybe others are very sensitive.

I read somewhere that when a pro tries a new blade they have about 10 of the same blade try them all and pick the 3 they like best!

Yes, I know quite a few current professional and sponsored players, and many former/retired professional or sponsored players. I also know several people working in the world of international table tennis, either on the equipment company or administrative side.

I know that Yogi works closely with many equipment companies.

Oftentimes an equipment manager for certain teams will do some vetting process on blades, but it is not really an exact science I don't believe. Players do try out blades and see which one they like, but it is not as exaggerated as trying out 10 and picking 3 or anything like that, and doesn't happen every time.

yogi_bear
08-07-2020, 05:56 PM
Can I just ask how do you guys know all this stuff about professionals and contracts?

Do any of you know any current professional players?
Are there any current professional players on the forum who could enlighten us?

Is it possible that some professionals can switch equipment without worrying too much and maybe others are very sensitive.

I read somewhere that when a pro tries a new blade they have about 10 of the same blade try them all and pick the 3 they like best!

in Hugo's case if I did not forget he had like 30 to 50 blade samples i think before picking his HAL blade.

NextLevel
08-07-2020, 05:58 PM
switching your handle to your brand is not entirely correct in saying that it is a different equipment. Also, your player ranking does affect what you can ask in a contract. your assumption that all are forced is not entirely correct.

I know two players, and I have seen their blades, who are top pros and use Butterfly blades where the handles were changed to match their sponsor's brand.

Yes, a player with a higher ranking can negotiate more things. But that doesn't mean that the player is not forced to use the equipment of the sponsor. And it is not about being a top player, it is about what is in the contract. Some players ask for clauses to let them use equipment that they play best with but some companies refuse. Tibhar is especially notorious for refusing to let players use equipment from other brands.

NextLevel
08-07-2020, 05:59 PM
Can I just ask how do you guys know all this stuff about professionals and contracts?

Do any of you know any current professional players?
Are there any current professional players on the forum who could enlighten us?

Is it possible that some professionals can switch equipment without worrying too much and maybe others are very sensitive.

I read somewhere that when a pro tries a new blade they have about 10 of the same blade try them all and pick the 3 they like best!

Yes, I know people. And they are not going to discuss as a fun topic issues that affect the livelihoods of themselves and other people.

zyu81
08-07-2020, 06:07 PM
I know two players, and I have seen their blades, who are top pros and use Butterfly blades where the handles were changed to match their sponsor's brand.

Yes, a player with a higher ranking can negotiate more things. But that doesn't mean that the player is not forced to use the equipment of the sponsor. And it is not about being a top player, it is about what is in the contract. Some players ask for clauses to let them use equipment that they play best with but some companies refuse. Tibhar is especially notorious for refusing to let players use equipment from other brands.

Yogi is focused on discussing flagship players who are going to be the center of attention for marketing and have blades named after them, etc. This is a very small proportion of all sponsored players. And even still, in many of these examples, they are still forced to use their equipment. I doubt that Xiom was going to let Hugo use whatever he wants for years on end, no matter how flexible they were at the early stages of the transition period.

I can't believe this is having to be discussed ad nauseam because someone who admittedly doesn't know how equipment sponsorships work started spewing off theories about what pro players do when it comes to changing equipment or meeting sponsor demands.

yogi_bear
08-07-2020, 06:08 PM
I know two players, and I have seen their blades, who are top pros and use Butterfly blades where the handles were changed to match their sponsor's brand.

Yes, a player with a higher ranking can negotiate more things. But that doesn't mean that the player is not forced to use the equipment of the sponsor. And it is not about being a top player, it is about what is in the contract. Some players ask for clauses to let them use equipment that they play best with but some companies refuse. Tibhar is especially notorious for refusing to let players use equipment from other brands.

we have different perspectives here but at the end of the day there are players that are forced and some players that are forced. although, to say that they are all forced to change equipment is very incorrect. even if you cite an example of player having a butterfly blade with a different handle. I will take make FZD's infinity blade before with a viscaria blade. even if you changed the handle to infinity the fact remains it is still a different blade from the brand he represents. yes you will go back again to your argument that it depends on the contract but it does not remove the fact that top players have a much more leg room or choices.

yogi_bear
08-07-2020, 06:10 PM
Yogi is focused on discussing flagship players who are going to be the center of attention for marketing and have blades named after them, etc. This is a very small proportion of all sponsored players. And even still, in many of these examples, they are still forced to use their equipment. I doubt that Xiom was going to let Hugo use whatever he wants for years on end, no matter how flexible they were at the early stages of the transition period.

I can't believe this is having to be discussed ad nauseam because someone who admittedly doesn't know how equipment sponsorships work started spewing off theories about what pro players do when it comes to changing equipment or meeting sponsor demands.

As far as I know, Hugo is too valuable for Xiom and has not forced him according to a friend of mine in Xiom. I cannot say this is true for other top players. (added)

zyu81
08-07-2020, 06:11 PM
we have different perspectives here but at the end of the day there are players that are forced and some players that are forced. although, to say that they are all forced to change equipment is very incorrect. even if you cite an example of player having a butterfly blade with a different handle. I will take make FZD's infinity blade before with a viscaria blade. even if you changed the handle to infinity the fact remains it is still a different blade from the brand he represents. yes you will go back again to your argument that it depends on the contract but it does not remove the fact that top players have a much more leg room or choices.

And top players/flagship names are a tiny proportion of all sponsored players so it is not really worth focusing on just that small bit. What you are saying is not necessarily wrong, but if you look at this discussion in context of Lasta's original claims that sponsored players don't bother to try equipment from their own company, and that essentially all rubbers are created equal, I don't think you would be so passionately arguing what you are.

UpSideDownCarl
08-07-2020, 06:13 PM
Lasta, this is about an attempt at improvement, see what happens if you find a mirror that lets you see your torso. If you have one that will let you see your legs as well, it will also help. Practice a few hundred FH counter strokes in front of the mirror. Just a small, basic stroke. Same with BH. Do that a few days in a row, just the FH stroke and the BH stroke separated. You could do 10 of one then 10 of the other over and over, but just the stroke.

Then try to do One FH and One BH with the footwork to switch, not moving side to side, but the imagined ball contact for BH and FH would be about 2-3 feet apart . Do maybe 300-500 a day for a few days. 300-500 could take 30 min.

Then, add a one step to the movement with FH and BH this would make it so the imagined ball contact would be about a foot farther apart. Do about 300-500 a day for about a week.

Then do the same with a step around step so that you would be taking the BH and the FH with the same ball contact spot. Again, do about 300-500 a day for about a week.

Then improvise and do any footwork drills you want with basic shadow strokes.

After you complete this experiment, tell us if you feel your strokes have more power and your contact feels cleaner just from doing shadow drills. Just from about 30 min a day of shadow stroke/footwork drills.

Here is an example of me mixing things up. Note I am just doing small compact strokes. I cannot tell you how much this helped me improve my upper body/lower body coordination for linking footwork with stroke production.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-C4nbKAiTs

For ball feel self hitting really helps as well:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezBW4kePyrc

yogi_bear
08-07-2020, 06:16 PM
And top players/flagship names are a tiny proportion of all sponsored players so it is not really worth focusing on just that small bit. What you are saying is not necessarily wrong, but if you look at this discussion in context of Lasta's original claims that sponsored players don't bother to try equipment from their own company, and that essentially all rubbers are created equal, I don't think you would be so passionately arguing what you are.

I did say "players MAY or MAY NOT try the brand they represent" for my reply to lasta and yes i used the top players as an example but i am not saying it is true to all as lower ranked players may not have what top players have. I am only saying this happens.

UpSideDownCarl
08-07-2020, 06:26 PM
Carl do you not have any friends to practice with or do you live on top of a mountain alone??

;););)

These are good things to do in CoVID times to stay safe and still progress. :)

Actually, with how things are in the US, the only person I have been playing with during CoVID is my sister.

She is getting better. I am in trouble. :)

I am also actually playing more during CoVID than I had since 2017 when my wife passed. Now I have a little extra time.

But 30 min of shadow drills a day can really add a lot of rating points to your game. This is one where I am practicing an imagined short push to the wide FH, the reset and then a few of the shot options after the reset:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77SchwMvQWA

These kinds of things, for sure, help when your body just knows what to do without you having to think. And this one relates to the footwork you asked about in a different thread: taking a short ball with the FH over the table and how you use your feet for that.

IB66
08-07-2020, 06:34 PM
"Player experience" is a computer science term, most often mentioned in game design. It's about maximizing the experience the player goes through when they play a game.

I'm borrowing the concept here to emphasize the importance of starting from the player's perspective when we talk about equipment and technique.

Below is what happens when you start from a purely physics standpoint, kinematics to be precise. All you need to do is follow the formula to play like Franziska and Niwa.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MO8Gb8LHkeg
https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/cache.php?img=https%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FDLkFiRt.png
https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/cache.php?img=https%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FCFuPeu7.png

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogeTLjES9vY
https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/cache.php?img=https%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FKrELT0m.png
https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/cache.php?img=https%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FK5wI5iN.png
Hi,

the ‘player experience’ is then gearing how you are going to train a person, so that they get the most out of the training,
so with video games, a controller with a vibration mode , gave an added dimension, then came the motion type controller etc the games have become more engaging and immersive for the player with additional Tech and inclusion of other players etc the games have given a far better ‘player experience’

the only other coaching / training I have had (other than table tennis) has been for golf, and the coaches use cameras, launch monitors and computers to show you what you are doing and show a comparison (using a split screen ) to another player who is doing what they want you to do. This is similar to what Carl is talking about regarding mirror practice and watching your own movements.


with the ‘physics’ clips/slides of Mr Niwa and Franziska showing various figures for spin, velocity etc, your right in that, I look at it and think how does this help me? But it was the same with the table of figures from the launch monitor data the 1st time I saw that!!!!
Once the coach had explained what some of the figures related to, I could then see improvement both in actual play out on the course and in the data records as I practiced and improved.

The coach also had a ‘pressure’ plate machine/instrument which he said he didn’t make enough use of!!
It recorded the additional pressure a person can impose through the ground. It was never explained properly to me, but I believe it has to do with using the ground and your body to your benefit, sort of loading yourself through the ground and exploding out of the ground, he did mention that players good at it, sort of weigh more for a fraction of a second, I could be wrong, I’m sure I’ll be corrected !!!!

Going back to the ‘player experience’ for learning table tennis, the inclusion of video footage of myself, and a bit of science as well as the physical side of training ( i mean actually playing strokes, movement exercises etc) would for me, result in a better ‘player experience’ everyone loves a bit of tech !!!!!!

it would be even better if there was a monitor that tracked your movement and bat angle speed etc etc and traced the ball, then you could check the data against that of Mr Niwa and Franziska and actually say ‘today, I actually served like Franziska and returned a serve like Niwa !!!!!’


i think the term ‘science’ would have been a much better word to have used !!!!

UpSideDownCarl
08-07-2020, 06:39 PM
As far as different rubbers....I have enjoyed reading and wanted to stay away from that discussion, but....there are plenty of rubbers that do everything well enough for me to use them. But that does not mean there isn't enough difference to matter. It means I can get by with less.

However, my experience is that T05 is really more consistent and better at what it does than most of the attempts from other brands in the past to duplicate what T05 can do. Maybe these days there rubbers that compare favorably or are better. Like the Rasanter R48 I am using is pretty darn good.

I have not tried any of the Dignics rubbers. But I would not be surprised, if a lot of top pros are using them, that there is a real reason that some from our varied levels may not be able to feel, but that the top pros can feel and they know why they are choosing the rubbers they choose.

I still think, one of the most interesting things in this whole discussion is what NextLevel was describing about how, with H3 you can get so much spin on low impact shots compared to the Euro rubbers. That leaves a lot of food for thought if you ask me. It will be worth continuing to think about what that means. :)

NextLevel
08-07-2020, 06:42 PM
As far as different rubbers....I have wanted to stay away from that discussion, but....there are plenty of rubbers that do everything well enough for me to use them. But that does not mean there isn't enough difference to matter. It means I can get by with less.

However, my experience is that T05 is really more consistent and better at what it does than most of the attempts from other brands in the past to duplicate what T05 can do. Maybe these days there rubbers that compare favorably or are better.

I have not tried any of the Dignics rubbers. But I would not be surprised, if a lot of top pros are using them, that there is a real reason that some our level may not be able to feel, but that the top pros can feel and they know why they are choosing the rubbers they choose.

I still think, one of the most interesting things in this whole discussion is what NextLevel was describing about how, with H3 you can get so much spin on low impact shots compared to the Euro rubbers. That leaves a lot of food for thought if you ask me.


I actually meant on high impact (I could have made a mistake). On low impact shots, you feel as if you aren't spinning unless you put in a lot of effort. But when looping really hard, you feel as if you can loop anything once you are willing to put in the effort.

Der_Echte
08-07-2020, 06:46 PM
Just about EVERY KOEANN AMATEUR TT CLUB I have ever stepped into, and I stepped into a lot, I got around, had such a full length mirror for exactly this purpose.

Old School coaches, who run most of the clubs, are big-time into the importance of shadow strokes.

Some of the more "Radical" of the old school crowd will have you shadows stroking for MONTHS or even a year before they will coach you.

Next Korea president was one of these who had such an old school mentality coach.

UpSideDownCarl
08-07-2020, 06:47 PM
I actually meant on high impact (I could have made a mistake). On low impact shots, you feel as if you aren't spinning unless you put in a lot of effort. But when looping really hard, you feel as if you can loop anything once you are willing to put in the effort.

Oh. Okay. That makes more sense. I was thinking of the short game potential of touching soft and still getting massive spin. Darn. It turns out I won't be switching to Ma Long's extra hard FH H3 for my BH after all. :)

Yeah. I could see, players used to playing with H3, training with H3, knowing how to get that top end performance out of H3 being able to get more spin and pace from H3 at the top end while players used to using spring sponge may feel something different when comparing D09c to H3 [Do I need to say: BOOSTED :)]

NextLevel
08-07-2020, 06:51 PM
Oh. Okay. That makes more sense. I was thinking of the short game potential of touching soft and still getting massive spin. Darn. It turns out I won't be switching to Ma Long's extra hard FH H3 for my BH after all. :)

Yeah. I could see, players used to playing with H3, training with H3, knowing how to get that top end performance out of H3 being able to get more spin and pace from H3 at the top end while players used to using spring sponge may feel something different when comparing D09c to H3 [Do I need to say: BOOSTED :)]

Touching soft actually has a similar concept but in a different way. The short pushes you can do with Chinese rubber are larger strokes. They aren't quite like the European rubber touches.

But yeah, the main point I was trying to make was that doing an open up from below the table with slow heavy topspin is a shot that you won't be seeing an H3 user do very often as their primary focus. They can loop the ball more forward and get a better result even when taking the ball late.

UpSideDownCarl
08-07-2020, 07:08 PM
Just about EVERY KOEANN AMATEUR TT CLUB I have ever stepped into, and I stepped into a lot, I got around, had such a full length mirror for exactly this purpose.

Old School coaches, who run most of the clubs, are big-time into the importance of shadow strokes.

Some of the more "Radical" of the old school crowd will have you shadows stroking for MONTHS or even a year before they will coach you.

Next Korea president was one of these who had such an old school mentality coach.

Funny story. Alex Perez, way way back, was having some back problems. Robert Chen told him to work with me, that I could help his back. He came to me and we arranged an hour for an hour. I would help his back. He would give me a lesson.

We scheduled each session. And then, I was playing, training, doing some matches, and Alex was there watching. I wasn't thinking about it. I had no idea he would do this. He watched me do some training and he watched me play some matches. Then he called me over and he said: "my back, it is not so bad. It will get better. You will help, I am sure. But it will get better. Your game, your game needs a lot more help than my back!!!!" Hahahahahahahah.

Then he pulled me into the Dance Room at NYTTF where they also did martial arts because it had mirrors. And he got me to do shadow strokes until he was satisfied that they were decent, shadow strokes for FH and BH. Then he told me to do 3000-5000 a day till I saw him for the lesson. When I saw him, he knew I had done the homework.

Ever since, I have practiced shadow strokes and shadow footwork drills to help my on table work improve faster. It does not fix everything. But when I feel my feet do the textbook footwork as I am moving for a ball, it always makes me happy. :)

zyu81
08-09-2020, 03:35 PM
Review of D09C boosted vs. H3 national boosted by forum poster scrubplayer.

"

Boosting techique:
09c: 4 thin layer of falco tempo long with 4 layers of medium viscosity glue. The formula I like as I've been boosting dignics for a while and tried different combination.
h3nat (41 degree, 2.1mm) : 4 layers of sea moon with 5 layer of high viscosity glue. The formula that pro uses.


Speed: A lot of people always care about the speed from a straight line point of view but lots of people keep forgetting that speed = distant travel / time.
For d09c the time aspect is lower compare to h3 but for h3 since the throw angle is lower the distant travel is significantly lower than 09c. At full power h3nat is definitely faster compare to 09c.

Short game: is pretty much the same.

Ease of use:
D09c is definitely easier to generate pace and spin.

When playing with h3 you need to play it as an extension of your hand, you need to have that snap wrist to achieve the maximum spin. This is something dan do not have; thus his video is very inaccurate (he also don't know how to properly boost h3 that's for sure). However, for d09c you do not need to do the wrist snapping thing to achieve maximum spin. Doing the wrist snapping thing will only make the ball very uncontrollable.

H3 will weirdly go to the net if you forgot to do the snap wrist thing during your stroke. I am used to play with euro rubber so sometimes i forgot to loosen my wrist.

Counter looping:
Both are easy but h3 have this extra gear that d09c do not have. As i mentioned from my previous post if my opponent do a very spinny opening. I can wait the ball to come down THEN loop it with full force (XX love to do that, it looks easy but it's actually a really difficult shot). I can do the same thing with 09c but not as confident with h3 nat.



TL;DR h3 is spinner, faster at higher gear, slower at lower gear. However d09c is easier to use and it last significantly longer than h3 national. The boosting effect on 09c is permanent. For h3 nat, you either bubble it in 2 weeks or the boosting effect will be gone. H3 nat is not worth it, not the price not the hassle.

"

brokenball
08-10-2020, 03:02 AM
I pity Pathfinderpro who put in so much work only to have someone come in and say science is shit.

I pity JRSDallas who posted some meaningful measurements only for it to fall on deaf ears.

The world was flat until someone proved it different, and they killed the guy who said it out loud first.

Don't waste your time Brokenball.
I liked your post.

I am not going to waste my time. I just got back from camping. I plan to do a lot more. I am 67 now and would rather play for fun and exercise than put the time into research like PathfinderPro.

You are correct about TT players wanting to believe their myths and that they are critical of anyone that would prove them wrong.

I have high speed cameras and the things needed to analyze motion control. That is what I do. I my company makes and sells motion controllers around the world including China and Russia.

I have been accused of suffering from the Dunning Kruger effect on other forums.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
It is easier to make ad hominem attacks than to address the facts.
It is easier to delete the persons account. This is what is happening all over the internet.
No one wants the truth.
They just want to feel good for the moment.

My advise is that the equipment isn't as important as physical ability, practice and experience. The TT manufactures are always repackaging the same old stuff and selling it as something new. PT Barnum had a quote about this.

zyu81
08-10-2020, 03:20 AM
My advise is that the equipment isn't as important as physical ability, practice and experience. The TT manufactures are always repackaging the same old stuff and selling it as something new. PT Barnum had a quote about this.

Does anyone think otherwise?

RidTheKid
08-10-2020, 01:05 PM
Most EJ's perhaps?


Does anyone think otherwise?

zyu81
08-11-2020, 03:24 PM
Review of D09C boosted vs. H3 national boosted by forum poster scrubplayer.

"
TL;DR h3 is spinner, faster at higher gear, slower at lower gear.
"


Heard from a friend who is quite a capable power looper, who recently tested the same rubbers, however 09C unboosted, who said this, and that it was very noticeable, direct opposite from Dan's review.

bobpuls
08-11-2020, 03:39 PM
But Dan tested 24 Euro rubber neo version.... Not national....Test of National version will follow in short time!! ..

NextLevel
08-11-2020, 03:40 PM
Heard from a friend who is quite a capable power looper, who recently tested the same rubbers, however 09C unboosted, who said this, and that it was very noticeable, direct opposite from Dan's review.

Well the technical approach to H3 (boosted or unboosted) in the original review left a lot to be desired. I am not a player on the level of Dan don't get me wrong, but you are supposed to apply a very physical style to get the best of of H3.

EDIT: If like Bobpuls pointed out, the version being tested against is not quality controlled, then maybe that could explain some of it.

zyu81
08-11-2020, 03:46 PM
Well the technical approach to H3 (boosted or unboosted) in the original review left a lot to be desired. I am not a player on the level of Dan don't get me wrong, but you are supposed to apply a very physical style to get the best of of H3.

Agreed. For context, player I am referring to in my above comment is very much accustomed to playing with H3 and is what people would call a "Chinese looper".

zyu81
08-11-2020, 03:48 PM
But Dan tested 24 Euro rubber neo version.... Not national....Test of National version will follow in short time!! ..

Agreed, and as I predicted earlier in this thread, I expect that to make a big difference.

Also, if they would really accelerate and power through the ball on their loops instead of just spinning them all up rather than forward.

Michael Kitt
08-11-2020, 04:20 PM
To be fair, when I directly tested unboosted H3 Nat vs T05 top speed it was a 3hr old sheet of H3 vs a super old sheet of T05. It's been noticeable that it took about 8+ hours to reach it's top speed characteristics on the H3. Other rubbers are faster out of the gate.

Though boosting may dramatically decrease the break in period, don't know.

bobpuls
08-11-2020, 04:42 PM
It is harder for Dan with his stile maybe...still openups, flat hits and flicks, drive are the same technique.... For powerloops I think Tom hawe better hand for h3 ..( So listen a little bit more from his side) . . Still they can provide a good results with this duo approach.... Maybe third person for chopping experience and fourth woman hand to fill the team will help them to have even better reviews for the future..... What do you think?

zyu81
08-11-2020, 04:45 PM
For powerloops I think Tom hawe better hand for h3 ..( So listen a little bit more from his side) . . Still they can provide a good results with this duo approach....

Even if the two disagreed, I am sure they are aware of how bad it would look to give two completely different opinions on something in the same video, so they need to agree on what to say for the sake of the video.

bobpuls
08-11-2020, 04:49 PM
Why bad? Different technique can produce different results in some sort.... So no shame there...

brokenball
08-12-2020, 03:49 AM
I have some very good equipment for monitoring or videoing motion.

How does one measure gears?
Can gears be related to coefficient of restitution?

Also, if one is accelerating through the ball that means the peak speed has not been reached! Any increase in the paddle after impact makes no difference to the trajectory of the ball and actually delays recovery. It seems to me that hitting the ball when the paddle is at peak speed is best and then slow down for recovery immediately after impact.

Aussie4220
06-19-2021, 11:43 AM
For a fairer comparison, a more competitive version of the Hurricanes 3 should have been used, either National orange sponge or a provincial blue sponge. I have used the H3 National orange sponge (boosted every 4 weeks) for many years and have really liked how it feels and plays. In the last week i have switched over to the Dignics 09c on both sides and within the first training session i was sold. Better control, more spin, more speed and better control over less than perfect shots. Response on counter spin is excellent and control on blocking and short game is excellent. For me it was a winner in all areas compared to my previous setup, i feel this combination of rubbers suits my blade better. The H3 seemed tackier than the Dignics 09C but i felt i had better dwell time with the Dignics.

Previously i used the T05 on my backhand and liked it but it was challenging on blocks and fast returns, the ball would spring off a little too quickly sometimes and control could be an issue. when hit well it was excellent. I find the Dignics 09C significantly more controllable on the backhand and when a powerful loop is applied the ball dips very rapidly and is difficult to return. My only concern is what do i do with the T05 and H3 sheets i have left??? i dont think i will go back to them, not after the success i have had with the Dignics 09C.

Overall i have had more match success with the Dignics so far, (still early days) but recently i have beaten players more easily that i have struggled with in the past, whether it is confidence, better shot play etc, it doesnt matter, the results are there. No room on the score sheet how you won. I pay close to the table ora couple of meteres back at the most so for me, the speed off the bat is good and hard to return.You do need to execute your shots better though, no half shots, good technique and commitment and the ball just takes off. I am told the rubber lasts longer so that will be a releif, i was replacing my H3 National every 4 months and the T05 every 6. Price per sheet on the Dignics is greater but if it lasts longer then it will work out to be more economical in the long run. I am stoked with it and recommend it to those who have a strong offensive game.

pilami
06-19-2021, 03:11 PM
For a fairer comparison, a more competitive version of the Hurricanes 3 should have been used, either National orange sponge or a provincial blue sponge.
It would have been fairer also in terms of price.
Anyway the comparison would be always biased because each H3 user has different results depending on which booster they use and how they apply it.

Aussie4220
06-22-2021, 12:29 AM
If the provincial and national versions are not as tacky as the commercial ones and also are heavily boosted then they would come out with more spin and power but then again you will be comparing 2 rubbers one which is only factory boosted and the other is boosted which is illegal in ittf's standard or in a more simple te "unnatural". Though both rubbers have factory boosting, if you will compare both rubbers with the h3 with more boosting seems not a fair comparison because why not just boost both rubbers to have a fair result??

The commercial H3 is a waste of money in my opinion, you will get far more speed and spin from the provincial and National versions. Yes you need to boost, but i would think all chinese rubbers need boosting. I boost my National H3 every 4 weeks and as soon as it is boosted i can defintiely feel the difference in spin and control, just doesnt feel as flat. I have recently changed to Dignics 09c and i am very pleased, for me, it is a better choice.

Aussie4220
06-22-2021, 12:35 AM
The player's skill is not the focus on the topic since you are dealing with comparison of properties between 2 rubbers. Basic experimentation principles would tell you this is not a fair comparison. Do not get me wrong, i heavily boost my h3 and other chinese rubbers with seamoon booster but to compare heavily boosted h3 with unaltered D09c is just not fair.

I think the comparison should be based on how you are going to play the rubber. If the D09c doesnt really need any boosting then dont boost it, play it in its "natural" form. The H3 definitely needs boosting, so boost it and then compare the two. At the end of the day, it is based on the final form of the rubber and how it plays. I boost my H3 National orange sponge and no boost on the D09c. for me, i like the 09c better.

GrayGhost
06-22-2021, 03:41 AM
I don't think D09c and H3 can even be compared. D09c isn't tacky at all and is basically an ultra grippy euro rubber. I used D09c on my FH for about 2 weeks before switching back to H3. I put D09c on my BH and really enjoy the speed and control.

brokenball
06-22-2021, 04:44 AM
I don't think D09c and H3 can even be compared.

I agree but mostly due to the price difference.



D09c isn't tacky at all and is basically an ultra grippy euro rubber.

Tacky rubbers have an advantage when brushing the ball because the ball will grip a little better. However, when I play with new balls with my Rakza 7, which is not tacky, I see no evidence that the ball is sliding on the rubber,



I used D09c on my FH for about 2 weeks before switching back to H3.

It doesn't surprise me at all since most of us can hit harder with the FH and don't need the extra speed ( high COR ) on the H.
The Chinese figured that out years ago. My 3rd coach from Tianjin used H3 National on the FH and T05 on the BH.



I put D09c on my BH and really enjoy the speed and control.
Cringe.
Equipment doesn't have control. The player does. However, some equipment is easier to control.
Sometime I will explain in detail as an engineer sees it which is reality if anybody cares. The TT manufacturers lie. The control should be the inverse of the spin and speed coefficient of restitutions.

UpSideDownCarl
06-22-2021, 01:30 PM
Cringe.
Equipment doesn't have control. The player does. However, some equipment is easier to control.
Sometime I will explain in detail as an engineer sees it which is reality if anybody cares. The TT manufacturers lie. The control should be the inverse of the spin and speed coefficient of restitutions.
I say, go ahead and explain. You could do it in a thread you start if you didn't want to derail this thread. I would be interested in reading it, especially if it is not part of a campaign to argue with someone and is just the information well explained.
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But I also say that you are getting hung up on a figure of speech rather than someone thinking the rubber is exerting any control. You may also note that the rubber does not have spin either, but it may allow you to impart spin on the ball. :)
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Probably, the statement you are reacting to meant something like: "On my BH D09c makes it easy for me to hit fast, spinny shots and even though the shot has a lot of spin and speed I can nevertheless, easily place the ball where I want putting extra pressure on my opponent with placement without sacrificing spin or speed."
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But that is just a lot of words to use when you can get across what, will be interpreted by most as pretty much the same meaning with: "I really enjoy the spin, speed and control."

brokenball
06-22-2021, 03:24 PM
I say, go ahead and explain. You could do it in a thread you start if you didn't want to derail this thread.

I would start a new topic and add a hash tag #control



But I also say that you are getting hung up on a figure of speech rather than someone thinking the rubber is exerting any control.

It is a misleading figure of speech. I just want to make sure that forum members do not think the equipment will make them better.



You may also note that the rubber does not have spin either, but it may allow you to impart spin on the ball. :)

spin and speed should be thought of as tangential and normal coefficients of restitution. If I desired, I could compute these number. Then we would have real data for spin and speed. However, it is up to the player to control the spin and speed.



Probably, the statement you are reacting to meant something like: "On my BH D09c makes it easy for me to hit fast, spinny shots and even though the shot has a lot of spin and speed I can nevertheless, easily place the ball where I want putting extra pressure on my opponent with placement without sacrificing spin or speed."

This doesn't bother me. It is an opinion. Dan is a very good player and can hit fast spinny shots with many different rubbers as shown in his many videos. So what makes D09 better?
I agree with Dan's assessment that D09 is faster and it is easier to hit the ball fast. That could be important in a long tournament and especially if playing back from the table.
What I saw was that H3 commerical is relatively dead and I thought that Dan gave H3 commercial a too high rating for spin. H3 does have a high spin to speed ratio because it is so slow..



But that is just a lot of words to use when you can get across what, will be interpreted by most as pretty much the same meaning with: "I really enjoy the spin, speed and control."
It is the control part that bothers me. Put D09 on a new player's paddle and see if they do better with that over and old Mark V. They will be able to hit the ball faster when they have a line of sight flat hit but after that the extra speed will result in balls going off the table and the extra spin will resulting in many more unforced errors.

UpSideDownCarl
06-22-2021, 03:50 PM
I would start a new topic and add a hash tag #control


It is a misleading figure of speech. I just want to make sure that forum members do not think the equipment will make them better.


spin and speed should be thought of as tangential and normal coefficients of restitution. If I desired, I could compute these number. Then we would have real data for spin and speed. However, it is up to the player to control the spin and speed.


This doesn't bother me. It is an opinion. Dan is a very good player and can hit fast spinny shots with many different rubbers as shown in his many videos. So what makes D09 better?
I agree with Dan's assessment that D09 is faster and it is easier to hit the ball fast. That could be important in a long tournament and especially if playing back from the table.
What I saw was that H3 commerical is relatively dead and I thought that Dan gave H3 commercial a too high rating for spin. H3 does have a high spin to speed ratio because it is so slow..


It is the control part that bothers me. Put D09 on a new player's paddle and see if they do better with that over and old Mark V. They will be able to hit the ball faster when they have a line of sight flat hit but after that the extra speed will result in balls going off the table and the extra spin will resulting in many more unforced errors.
Definitely start a new thread. I am looking forward to it. It will be really useful information.
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You know I agree with you on the rest. It is okay to explain how the term "control" is often used as a shortcut that, when you really look at it, is misleading, and misleading in sooooooo many ways.
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For instance: even if we grant that what is meant is that a rubber is easy to control rather than that it has control, you still need to ask the question: EASIER TO CONTROL in WHAT INSTANCES.
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Long pips make it very easy to return certain high spin serves. So, it makes it easy for you to control those serves. But if you tried to COUNTERLOOP with Long Pips--if you were trying to produce heavy heavy topspin in response to a heavy heavy topspin shot coming at you while using long pips--you would realize that a rubber that is easy to control in one instance is very hard to exert control over in another circumstance.
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So, the question of what a rubber allows you easy control over is also important to enunciate when talking about "control". And all of these things require the skill of the person holding the racket and his facility in using the equipment in his/her hand.
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So, yes, control is not a very accurate or precise term. That being said, it is easy to express this without it being directed at any one person. :) And, when it is used in a way that the meaning seems clear enough, I just ignore the issue. :)

GrayGhost
06-23-2021, 12:47 AM
Well that escalated quickly! By control I guess I should say the combination of the ultra grippy top sheet and speed that's not quite as fast as tenergy/dignics 05 makes it easier for me to swing harder and still land on the table.

Der_Echte
06-23-2021, 06:38 AM
BB and Carl are asking the right questions and considerations.

Control of what?

Define control (Ease to perform a kind of shot)

Is control using a certain rubber/blade a broad spectrum thing, or specific to some shots?

What are some categories of ruber that make it easy (control) to do THIS, or THAT or the NEW THING

What equipment makes it easier or difficult close to bounce impact with which impact?

What KIND of control would benefit WHAT KIND OF PLAYER?

Would a rubber easy to control this or that make a player's game better in general right now? Later without coaching? With coaching?