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john.armstrong
11-02-2020, 04:31 AM
I was hoping for a little help on the correct / alternative techniques for placement or aiming with the forehand topspin.

How does the action change between going cross court or down the line? I have heard a number of alternatives but can't figure it out.

With thanks

brokenball
11-02-2020, 04:39 AM
practice, practice, practice.
One of my favorite shots is going down the line and across court.
I don't even think about it but it does require a difference of timing of the swing.
Going across court requires an earlier swing and down the line a later swing.
There is a video of me doing that in the "who plays c-pen" thread.
Note, I don't normally play c-pen but it doesn't really change the way I play.

yogi_bear
11-02-2020, 06:09 AM
I was hoping for a little help on the correct / alternative techniques for placement or aiming with the forehand topspin.

How does the action change between going cross court or down the line? I have heard a number of alternatives but can't figure it out.

With thanks
Several ways:
1. Step back your hind foot a bit more or
2. Contact the ball very late that it already passed your optimized hitting area in your side or
3. Limit your swing when doing follow throughs not reaching the front of your body.

Lula
11-02-2020, 06:51 AM
More forehand feet or turn up the feet and torso to the right. Think very subjective how much forehand feet but it is not advised to teach it today according to some.

Tango K
11-02-2020, 11:22 AM
If you do down-the-line as a separated practise then the main aim is to have a full swing but shorter and spinner trajectory, so you change your leg position a little, as it’s more comfortable.

If you do it as a drill like corss court-down the line-cross court, which is more realistic, you tweak everything but the legs (as you won’t have time and you are using the legs to follow the ball) - a bit of wrist, taking the ball a little later, twist the shoulder a bit more, shortens the stroke etc.

In game, there are no “methods” anymore :cool:

john.armstrong
11-03-2020, 01:41 AM
I seem to have heard of a few different ways. Hard to explain but I will give it a go.

Method 1. If you fix the timing of the rotation of the hips and shoulders with the arm movement. Ideally it would be the same stroke (good consistency) you just change your feet so you are facing in the right direction, like turning the corner. Practically you can't always make the footwork but you can achieve something similar by changing where you finish the rotation. Eg. for cross court you finish with your shoulders square to the table. and for down the line you finish with your left shoulder further forward, i.e. as if you had your right foot further back.

I would have thought good consistency as the stroke mechanism is the same, but the reduced rotation on down the line would reduce the power.

Method 2. If you change the timing between the rotation of the torso and the arm movement. If you always rotate back to square to the table then for cross court you arm movement would start early in the rotation but for down the line the arm movement would start late in the movement to take the ball later.

Possible reduced consistency as you are changing the timing of the movement of the torso (rotation) and the arm stroke. It does seem to make the down the line almost more powerful than the cross court as there is a feeling of your arm being whipped around by your torso. Not sure that is great as there is less table down the line.

3. Bat angle. Hmm, I can't see how this doesn't mess up the brushing contact of the top=spin. Maybe for a flat hit....


Wondered if anyone had tried the above and had a preference or an alternative?

Der_Echte
11-03-2020, 03:59 AM
I was hoping for a little help on the correct / alternative techniques for placement or aiming with the forehand topspin....How does the action change between going cross court or down the line?...

If there in not much power used, one can open up the wrist and guide it there... but that isn't so powerful. Some side swipe for a fade kinda shot...

What I learned from Kim Jung Hoon and frequently advocate is to squat down a little more, turn the torso a little more, then allow the ball to come to the natural sweet spot of the impact zone. What you did was rotate the orentation of that zone from cross court to opposite side. You will be able to use a full swing and impact the ball the same way... you might have a tiny more power since you are consciously trying to engage hips.

This is so difficult for opponent to see coming and the shot is so fast it is often a winner if opponent is not guessing your tendencies.

On the flip side, if you are squared to hit down the line and you see opponent take a step there to cover that zone, you can use your non hitting hand/arm to pull towards you like you are starting a small motor... this turns shoulders earlier and now orients impact zone cross court...

... a plus to doing that is you now have 10% better spin and power since you engaged shoulders more. You often make either great spin or good power doing that depending on your impact.

What I described is a way to orient the body to go whatever direction without re-setting hte feet and giving away where you want to hit.

All good shots are struck with ball in center sweet spot of impact zone... what I suggested is just a way to "bend" that zone if you see opponent and want to change directions while ball is still coming.

john.armstrong
11-03-2020, 04:56 AM
[What I learned from Kim Jung Hoon and frequently advocate is to squat down a little more, turn the torso a little more, then allow the ball to come to the natural sweet spot of the impact zone. What you did was rotate the orentation of that zone from cross court to opposite side. You will be able to use a full swing and impact the ball the same way... you might have a tiny more power since you are consciously trying to engage hips.
[/QUOTE]

I see, you use you body rotation as opposed to feet placement to "orientate" the sweet spot for a down the line shot. I would guess you can only twist so far and if you need to go further, e.g. for the step around forehand, you would have to adjust your feet then.

I will try that as I like the idea that, ignoring the amount of turn of the torso, the timing of waist, shoulder and arm movements is the same no matter where you want to place the ball.

UpSideDownCarl
11-03-2020, 06:43 AM
When I go cross court I contact the outside of the ball and have some hook sidespin most of the time. When I go down the line I contact the inside of the ball and have some fade sidespin. So, those take two different strokes. The exception is if I am going around the net and then I will want to hook.

Der_Echte
11-03-2020, 07:46 AM
I see, you use you body rotation as opposed to feet placement to "orientate" the sweet spot for a down the line shot. I would guess you can only twist so far and if you need to go further, e.g. for the step around forehand, you would have to adjust your feet then..

Think about it in terms of math. (No math is NOT racist - I keep hearing that somewhere)

You are .3 to 1 meter behind the end line. Target is 3-3.5 meters deep and your side to side difference is 1.5 m for your target differnce. You can look it up on the trig chart. I do not think it is such a large degree of rotational difference.

Essentially, one was already rotating that much, but to make power the Asian way, one does a lot of the un-rotating before imact to max out power and to minimize momentum to make recovery easier... One is just doing a little more bend and a litle more rotation that is well within the cpability of a human.

heck, anyone seeing me lately would thing I could only rotate 10 degrees I got so bear large... but I make that shot a lot now using that method. Squatting down just a little more gives you those extra degrees you need.

We are talking about a player impacting the ball somewhere behind endline somewhere near the FH corner or only a little inside it and deciding whther to go cross court or go down the short side of table.

Doing it like this, one is using the waist and knees to move the strike zone in a circular from Short side line to cross court. Everyone does this motion and never thinks about it much.

Tango K
11-03-2020, 01:37 PM
That’s exactly what everybody means :p just not in a scientifically impactful way as you stated :cool:
“taking the ball a little later, twist the shoulder a bit more”

Basically the idea is that you shift your body rotation angle a little. The point you hit the ball relatively to your shoulder is relatively the same but shifted relatively to your stand.

UpSideDownCarl
11-03-2020, 01:59 PM
The followthrough on a fade, as you contact the inside of the ball, is more across the back of the ball with wrist at a different angle. The followthrough on a hook is up the outside of the ball, like the classic "salute" that everyone says as a simplification of the followthrough. Straight topspin and hook can be very close to the same stroke but for straight topspin you come more over the top of the ball instead of up the outside of the ball.

If I straight topspin down the line, it works okay. If I hook, down the line, if the ball hits the side-line, it still ends up 2/3 of the way to the center of the table by the time it is one foot past the end-line, which defeats the purpose of the down the line shot. Whereas, with inside-out sidespin (fade sidespin) it gives more room for error because, if I land the ball a foot inside the side-line, by the time it is one foot past the end-line it is still outside the side-line.

For reference about the differences between cross-court and down the line stroke form, or the form of the FH stroke if you are hitting from the BH corner to the opponent's BH corner, watch Wang Liqin and look at his followthrough from BH side and from FH side.

Many of the fundamentals are the same. But the followthrough and how you use the body do change.

The best way to sort that out is to practice, practice, practice, which is what brokenball at the top.

When you have done the stroke enough, all you do is think about where you want the ball to land. If you are thinking about more than that, in the middle of a pressure situation, it will cause problems. But you need to practice the shot enough to get to that point where you only have to think about where you want to place the ball.

UpSideDownCarl
11-03-2020, 02:04 PM
Here, just watch how his body mechanics, form and followthrough change based on where he is shooting:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMDO7wXF3go