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View Full Version : Wang Hao's Serve (Analyse)



braithey
04-03-2012, 12:48 PM
Can anyone please explain why Wang Hao is not picked up on his serve. I have just watched his game against Baum in the WTTC and his service game faults on two key points every time. first - Ball not thrown vertically - he is always backwards toward his body. Second - point of contact is masked by his shoulder. I know Baum is left handed and chooses to stand where he is to receive serve. But, in my opinion, even if Baum had stood totally in his fore hand corner I do not think he would have had a clear line of sight at the point of contact between ball and bat.

https://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/forum/images/wanghaoservedetail.jpg

At 6-6 is an excellent example


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOJ2WvOloOA

Here are some more pictures to have a clear vivid vision on the serve in action.

Part 1

https://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/forum/images/wangservedetail1.jpg

Part 2

https://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/forum/images/wangservedetail2.jpg

Part 3

https://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/forum/images/wangservedetail3.jpg

Part 4

https://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/forum/images/wangservedetail4.jpg

Part 5

https://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/forum/images/wangservedetail5.jpg

Part 6

https://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/forum/images/wangservedetail6.jpg

Part 7

https://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/forum/images/wangservedetail7.jpg

What do you think? What did you vote for?

WiWa
04-03-2012, 01:13 PM
Service rules are often not applied very accurately indeed. For example Par Gerell's service is pretty much the same stuff as Wang Hao's in terms of ball toss and covering with the body. But for some reason they don't get called.

GeMaCa
04-03-2012, 01:41 PM
I think because of the position of the umpires, it might be really hard for them to notice...

braithey
04-03-2012, 02:13 PM
But surely even considering the position of the umpires they must be able to see that Wang Hao does not throw the ball vertically. Look at the difference between Baum and Hao in the throw at the start of the serve, Baum's is almost always near vertical Hao makes no attempt to throw vertically. No matter your position as an umpire removing the non playing arm from the space between ball and net after throwing the ball up to serve is fairly straightforward.

leedeyuan2
04-03-2012, 02:36 PM
Very normal. If you see timo boll's serve closely, his service is also not thrown up vertically but instead towards his body.

cmhtbx
04-03-2012, 04:34 PM
it's the perspective of the camera, Patrick Baum could see the ball clearly in his perspective...

Dan
04-03-2012, 04:37 PM
This is an interesting topic, during the World Team Championships 2012 a lot of players were called up for their serves. A new video posted by FanTTW showed how Emmanual Lebesson was called up for his service.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SkmP_6_p-I&feature=g-all-u&context=G22a0919FAAAAAAAAIAA

Also check out the other thread here (http://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?2538-Fault-serves-at-WTTTC-2012) which displayed Bartosz Such being called up for his serve on many, many occasions. It ended up killing the match with the crowd going ballistic! Perhaps in the later stages of these championships the players are not called up as much because the umpires are aware that the matches are on main stream TV. To make the match good on TV we don't want any umpire calling up for a fault serve. From our angle here on the video footage and analysis, it does seem Wang Hao's serve is covering the ball... however from an umpire/players perspective it may be totally different

azlan
04-03-2012, 04:39 PM
I've noticed Wang hao's serve for quite sometime now. Not so much the issue of throwing into his body, but concealing the serve with his body. If Baum or any other player find it difficult to see the serve, why didn't they make the matter known to the umpire?

And as Lebesson case, though the ball may travelled high enough, but he only released the ball between his chest and shoulders height. The ball travelled a few inches above his hand, before dropping lower than the released point, where it made contact with his racket.

There should be handbook/video by ITTF to everyone showing what's legal and what's not, and settle the matter once in for all.

DKPOWA
04-03-2012, 04:41 PM
The rule states that the ball should be thrown as vertically as possible, this is a grey law, depending on how strict the umpire wants to be, which serves will be called or not.

Dan
04-03-2012, 04:42 PM
I've noticed Wang hao's serve for quite sometime now. Not so much the issue of throwing into his body, but concealing the serve with his body. If Baum or any other player find it difficult to see the serve, why didn't they make the matter known to the umpire?

There should be handbook/video by ITTF to everyone showing what's legal and what's not, and settle the matter once in for all.

Very well said Azlan. Yeah I don't think throwing the ball back is an issue because that is hard to judge, but using the body to cover the ball on impact can not be allowed. It is so difficult to read a serve your opponents serve if they have done this.

Maybe Patrick did not say anything about the serve because he is focussed in on his own game, or he didn't want to cause commotion due to the scenario.

DKPOWA
04-03-2012, 04:44 PM
Lebbenson´s umpire sucks big time, he is just confused because of Lebbenson´s pre movements before toss... really ignorant umpire

tremil
04-03-2012, 04:49 PM
i think that it just is ridiculous that this serve is approved, he hides it with his arm as it was still 1991.

Matt Hetherington
04-03-2012, 04:49 PM
Illegal, no doubt, but again, unless the umpire is seeing from the perspective of a player then they aren't going to see the degree to which the ball is hidden, meanwhile people are being pulled up for 'faults' which have nowhere near as much impact on the opponent as hiding the ball does!

azlan
04-03-2012, 04:54 PM
Exactly Matt, it's a real issue here. I like the way Tremil said it "as if it was still 1991" hahaha. I've been playing seriously since the early 80's and even an ol geezer like me can make the adjustments. Why is it so hard? I don't get it....

the_M
04-03-2012, 04:54 PM
It's just as illegal as baums so who cares

UpSideDownCarl
04-03-2012, 04:58 PM
I do think it is unfortunate that almost all the pros have serves that, in some way are not by the rule. I know a lot of people hold Timo Boll up as someone whose serves are legal. There was a thread where someone posted footage where they gave a pretty good camera angle of Timo Boll, several times in a match starting his serve with his hand and the ball clearly over the table. Since then, I have looked a lot. I have seen a lot of different camera angles. (There were people who commented in the thread that it was merely a deceptive camera angle). I never would have noticed it, but quite often Boll starts his serve with the ball over the table not behind the end line. I don't think he gets an unfair advantage from it, so I don't think it matters too much. But, the point is that even the guy who most people use as the example of the player who serves legally and has good serves, Boll's serves are not fully legit.

Either ITTF needs to loosen the rules or the players need to work on making their serves legal. Too many top pros have serves that could be faulted on almost any serve for a number of reasons. And almost nobody holds their palm open and their fingers straight. I recently had a friend ask his coach (a pro, no names) :) the rule on presenting the ball. The pro showed how the hand is supposed to be, completely flat with the palm open and the fingers straight. And directly after showing us, he demonstrated a serve, and when he went to serve, his hand was closed enough and his fingers bent enough that he was actually hiding the ball. :) He thought he was showing us the correct way to present the ball before the toss and he could not even do it with us remarking 3 different times that he was not doing what he had just showed us. Habits are hard to change.

ttmonster
04-03-2012, 05:00 PM
This problem get exacerbated when the opponents are a left - right combination. I have had the same issue against lefties who do the hook serve . The only trick my coach was telling me to wait till the last moment and move to the centre to see the ball better.
However, there is no question about the "illegality" of the serve. Its just about clearly defined rules and applying them with a standard across the board. And definitely a handbook will help !!

Rob
04-03-2012, 05:00 PM
The service doesn't start from a stationary hand. Therefore it's illegal. But, it could be argued that his hand was stationary before his pre-movement before throwing it, couldn't it.

Either way the rules are terrible. ITTF need to get with the times and realise that with youtube and people like Dan and others producing videos for us to analyse and critique, that they need to make sure the rules are watertight and transparent, which they are currently way off.

ttmonster
04-03-2012, 05:01 PM
the reason I said "clearly definite rules" is because funnily enough the rule states you should throw the ball almost straight so somebody can potentially argue , it you throw it up absolutely straight ... its illegal :D ... LOL

Dave Cochrane
04-03-2012, 05:17 PM
Hi guys,
Go onto the ITTF website and enter the section URC (Umpire Referee Committee) and download the Match Officials Handbook.
This book contains many guidelines given to the umpires on pretty much everything and has a good section about service rule.
hope this helps :)

WiWa
04-03-2012, 05:43 PM
the reason I said "clearly definite rules" is because funnily enough the rule states you should throw the ball almost straight so somebody can potentially argue , it you throw it up absolutely straight ... its illegal :D ... LOL

Haha true. You can't tell people that they should toss straight up though. Or that the ball should be like max 5 cm away from going straight up, it would be even worse to measure that. If there are no rules, people will hide their serves and gain an illegal advantage. Rules protecting against this however are very hard to check on during the match, because it all goes just too fast and the umpires have a bad angle of view. So this is merely the responsibility of the players, to not get any unfair advantage out of their serves. I don't think it is possible to create watertight rules about this that can be used effectively. But if you just check the difference between serves 10 years ago and serves now, at least you can conclude that big part of the unfair advantages people gained back then are gone now. However you can't rule out everything I'm afraid.

ars
04-03-2012, 09:18 PM
there is a rule on tossing on open palm and no hiding on serves...but umpires are not consistently enough applying this rules

rooklynbounce
04-03-2012, 09:27 PM
DaveCochrane, I'd say it's not good enough, or the umpires aren't reading it. It's extremely common with tremendously illegal serves not being called up at all, over and over.

ars
04-03-2012, 09:43 PM
i agree with you...

theinvisible
04-04-2012, 08:08 AM
Serve rule is big issue in table tennis. In Wang Hao's case, I think Baum can see how Hao's racket contacts the ball, but not clearly, and it makes Baum confused and he makes mistakes in returning the serves.
I think they should not make players lose their points for making illegal serves. Warning is better, 2 times of warning then lose point.

judah000
04-04-2012, 08:22 AM
I've noticed Wang hao's serve for quite sometime now. Not so much the issue of throwing into his body, but concealing the serve with his body. If Baum or any other player find it difficult to see the serve, why didn't they make the matter known to the umpire?

And as Lebesson case, though the ball may travelled high enough, but he only released the ball between his chest and shoulders height. The ball travelled a few inches above his hand, before dropping lower than the released point, where it made contact with his racket.

There should be handbook/video by ITTF to everyone showing what's legal and what's not, and settle the matter once in for all.
I think What Azlan said about lebsonn's serve was right.

TME
04-19-2012, 05:42 PM
On Lebsonn's serve he is using his flat(ish) palm to roll the ball out of his hand as well which is putting spin on it.

Anders
04-23-2012, 09:08 PM
Well, as long as the umpires says nothing, it is up to the players to shout out if the service is illegal by the rules of the ITTF. And if the players don't, all we can say is that it's legal or that the players doesn't care. If they don't care, does it really matter to have such rules?

gtardy80
03-06-2017, 04:37 AM
it's okey or not to do tat serve?

sanavasaraja
03-06-2017, 09:28 AM
The camera is way up high. I am betting his body is above the ball but you can see it from the front. If that weren't the case, at least I'd complain to the umpire. You'd be stupid not to complain if you don't want to lose the match because of those, it's your right.

The interesting part is whether the ball is visible from the netpost on the right side during the moment of impact on the racket. That's where the money is at. My guess is that it just barely is.

Also the ball toss is not vertical enough in my opinion, but that is somewhat subject to interpretation.

People used to complain about Wang Liqin's serves, although they are perfectly fine imo. You can hide your racket all you want until the moment of ball impact. In Gerell's case against Dan, those were obviously fishy.
Here, there's not enough evidence to call it illegal, although enough doubt to ask Hao to pay attention, to produce a clean serve that leaves none.

zoomtt
03-06-2017, 02:31 PM
We recently wrote an article (https://zoomtt.com/2017/02/05/who-is-cheating-the-service-rule-in-detail/ ) regarding this in our website, you might find it interesting as we comment the service rule in detail and some examples of top players.

It's surprising how many players are not fulfilling the service rules and it always depends on the umpire's will to get in trouble.

Pandaboii97
03-06-2017, 03:40 PM
when xu xin serves, sometimes he tend to throw the ball towards his body...

passifid
03-06-2017, 07:40 PM
Serve rule is big issue in table tennis. In Wang Hao's case, I think Baum can see how Hao's racket contacts the ball, but not clearly, and it makes Baum confused and he makes mistakes in returning the serves.
I think they should not make players lose their points for making illegal serves. Warning is better, 2 times of warning then lose point.at least make them re-take too and call a let or else people will deliberately serve wrong on a cruitial point only netting a warning.
also
left handed players are often on the end of "legal" illigal serves, i notice it at amature even from players who are against illigal serving, this is because i have a far smaller view around their bodies and throwing it into your body which would be perfectly fine against a player on the opposite side can make the serve completely invisible when standing down the line.