PDA

View Full Version : Forehand concept - cone on the rod



SURF
03-12-2022, 12:43 PM
https://www.youtube.com/embed/D3Jy7hyWepw?autohide=1&controls=1&showinfo=0

SofaChamp
03-12-2022, 06:56 PM
Wow, this is really something here. Whilst I truly appreciate that you must have invested a fair bit of time into this, I am really not sure that this can help someone play table tennis.

'Writing about music is like dancing about architecture.'

KM1976
03-12-2022, 09:54 PM
Wow, this is really something here. Whilst I truly appreciate that you must have invested a fair bit of time into this, I am really not sure that this can help someone play table tennis.

'Writing about music is like dancing about architecture.'
Completely agree. I checked out a few videos. But it's too technical, without demonstration and I lost interest after first minute or so.

SURF
03-14-2022, 09:22 AM
Guys,
I agree that videos are bit more technical than on the other channels. But this is the point.
We want to be different in this aspect. We are publishing ideas, notes and concepts from lot of years thinking and experimenting with table tennis approaches to the game. Some people are making videos by taking videos of others, add some script and voila... Advice like tilt your paddle to handle spin or slow down to get better consistency is not our style. This information gives nothing IMHO.

Our videos are clearly not for everyone. It requires a lot of imagination and some people are not seeing what we see. That is completely fine.
Imagination or thinking process is not easy thing to transfer to other people. Even words or illustrations are not exactly describing some points.
We do what is in our power to do. We are sharing our knowledge, we are not forcing anyone to anything.

We want our audience to think for themselfs. We are just planting a seed. It takes time for a plant to grow. This is completely new approach and we are ready to see some critics.
Information in those videos is very valuabe and maybe one time you will see it too. Be patient and kind.

Thanks for your opinions,
and have a nice day.

This explains difference between what people want to hear on different levels. Let say we want to go little deeper in our lessons.
Feynman: Magnets (and Why?) FUN TO IMAGINE 4/ higher quality version! - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1lL-hXO27Q)

UpSideDownCarl
03-14-2022, 02:43 PM
To me, it is not that the videos are technical or "more" technical in nature that is the problem. It is that the explanations are not very clear or understandable. They are not coherent.

Perhaps you guys are not native English speakers. So it is hard to say what you actually mean. But I am thinking that perhaps a lot is getting lost in translation. And I am not sure the animation explains your content either.

To me, this video is a bit like dancing about architecture. You may know what you mean, but I am not sure it is well communicated and therefore, it is unfortunate, but I doubt you will be able to help people improve if people can't understand the content.

I don't teach table tennis. But I teach something. And my understanding of the process of teaching is that it is a process of problem solving so that, you take someone who did not understand something, and you lead them towards understanding it. Different people will require different tools to get from not understanding to understanding the subject.

I am not sure your videos are providing that process that helps people understand what you mean. You may understand it. But people who want to and are trying to watch your videos and are trying to understand what you are saying, they are not getting it.

I also still think that you would be WAY BETTER OFF using your own voice rather than that awful robot voice.

SURF
03-14-2022, 04:27 PM
We started this series with some plan and we have framework for it. It is not purpose to change it during the series. We want it to be unified. I understand that voice is not optimal.

What exactly, you do not understand about linear and tangent strokes? Complex stroke, can be difficult, but... If you look at Ma Long during forehand training, where he is keeping elbow almost static, you will see this Cone we are talking about almost immediately (it is very pronounced). When he is looping he is doing the same thing (this is less evident), but uses his elbow joint as end of pendulum. when you combine both movemnets you get complex movement (cone on the rod).
Idea is to use two forces generated by:
1, rotation of the body
2, arm movement (elbow aiming to he start of active phase)

and those two motions are in harmony with the phase your forearm is at the cone. You need to add them.

Problem is that those movements are not in the same plane. (you need imagination when looking at 2D force diagram - complex)
1 is around Z axis
2 is around X axis

those two combined are sources of power that is delivered to the ball. This is reason why Ma Long has the most powerfull forehand of all CNT players.
moreover, he is using body rotation a lot less and is focusin more on the cone and elbow aiming during training (to lock on the rhythm of the ball)

Hopefuly it makes more sense now.

UpSideDownCarl
03-14-2022, 04:33 PM
In my opinion, this is still dancing about architecture. It is not really how people actually learn even if your analysis is good. I would suggest you guys do a few courses on the process of teaching, teaching anything, perhaps, specifically, not teaching table tennis. Maybe a little on learning to teach what ever language you speak natively. And then maybe, a little on the subject of learning how to teach gymnastics. Without understanding the process of how to teach or the process of how people learn, you may have great ideas, and it is clear you have done a lot of work, but, I am not sure people will understand what you are talking about. Therefore, the good information you have, will not really be appreciated.

SURF
03-15-2022, 10:31 AM
I really like this term you are using. So lets dance...

As mentioned above I can see your points. I know that you probably mean it in the good way and you are trying to help with your suggestions, but...
Purpose of this series is to transfer lot of notes from paper or from coaching experience to some form that will stay. We are publishing it on YT so everyone can take whatever information he/she wants. You can build upon it, be inspired by ideas or just look into others persons mind. Whether the form is suitable for you, or some other people, it depends. It is just audio notepad.

Videos are created in our free time and it takes cca 10-14 hours to create one video.

Think about it this way. We are making materials for players and coaches, that whenever we are discussing some topics in person, we can refer to it on YT. Because everyone has smart phone, right?

They can have explations very detailed way, with example, discussion and so on.

If you want to discuss ideas or something is not clear from the video notes, just ask trough the comment section under videos or here. We are happy to help everyone, just look at the comment sections.

You are getting some very rare informations for free and you can support us and the channel, I think, it just seems to be very fair price for the trade. Do not you?

NDH
03-15-2022, 11:16 AM
I really like this term you are using. So lets dance...

As mentioned above I can see your points. I know that you probably mean it in the good way and you are trying to help with your suggestions, but...
Purpose of this series is to transfer lot of notes from paper or from coaching experience to some form that will stay. We are publishing it on YT so everyone can take whatever information he/she wants. You can build upon it, be inspired by ideas or just look into others persons mind. Whether the form is suitable for you, or some other people, it depends. It is just audio notepad.

Videos are created in our free time and it takes cca 10-14 hours to create one video.

Think about it this way. We are making materials for players and coaches, that whenever we are discussing some topics in person, we can refer to it on YT. Because everyone has smart phone, right?

They can have explations very detailed way, with example, discussion and so on.

If you want to discuss ideas or something is not clear from the video notes, just ask trough the comment section under videos or here. We are happy to help everyone, just look at the comment sections.

You are getting some very rare informations for free and you can support us and the channel, I think, it just seems to be very fair price for the trade. Do not you?
Hey SURF,

I agree with a lot of what you say, but I think it comes down just how much you want people to watch your videos and get something out of them vs making the videos for your own personal satisfaction (and the 0.1% who may get something from it).

This thread is going to be an indication of what *most* people think - And that is unfortunately the fact that the videos are too technical, with not enough real world footage to be of use to them.

I guess I can compare it to writing.

I sometimes write long articles or reviews, and there are two reasons why.

1. A part of me enjoys it.
2. A bigger part of me gets more enjoyment from others reading it, or the article/review helping them etc.

However, if I realise that my writing is not going to be read by many people, I'll usually stop, as it's not worth my time.

It looks like you are similar, and you are hoping there are enough people out there like you, who can get something from these videos.

But...... You unfortunately fall into two, very small, very niche categories.

1. You are an analytic engineer with a very high level understanding of mechanics/physics, who obsesses over the small details.
2. You play Table Tennis in the Western World.

If you managed to find just 10 people who were like you, you'd be doing very, very well.

If you are making the videos because you enjoy the process and the result of them, you should definitely carry on.

I think they are great, and whilst I can't get anything from them, I appreciate the time and effort you have put in to our niche sport.

SURF
03-15-2022, 12:55 PM
NDH,
I think you are completely right about this. And thanks for the appreciation.

Still, I can promise that some videos will be easier to grasp and anyone can benefit from the content, even if they are not able to catch every part of it.

KM1976
03-15-2022, 01:36 PM
NDH,
I think you are completely right about this. And thanks for the appreciation.

Still, I can promise that some videos will be easier to grasp and anyone can benefit from the content, even if they are not able to catch every part of it.
Hey Buddy SURF,

I understand that how much effort it must be taking to create these kind of videos. More so, these videos, as you accurately mentioned, are basically involving mature ideas which have to be brought on videos from how you or your team analyze the game.
I believe, it is the most difficult to explain analysis to someone else. Be it Table tennis analysis or some other topic. The reason is simple, the person or the group should also align with the same plane of thinking and it is never easy, because everyone comes with their own share of experiences which shapes their opinion.
To cut a long story short, I believe, and here I am talking about myself is that I can better understand the content shared in these videos if you could superimpose/overlay the concept with a real player performing these shots. So, we can actually map the concept to a real player. I noticed, that you gave reference to Ma Long in one of your responses. It immediately created a picture in the back of mind and I was curious to see how this concept maps.
I feel that everyone here is eager to learn and would definitely appreciate the content which you are sharing. In fact, everyone wants you to succeed by making your content more accessible/consumable.

Good Luck!

Thank you, KM1976

SURF
03-15-2022, 02:02 PM
I can do it here, but probably not on our channel due to rights of content owners.
for the cone on the rod concept, refer to this footage.

[20171020] ITTF - INS | MA Long Warm-up Training | 2017 Men‘s World Cup - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IYKx7MafeM)

You will see it from many angles so you can imagine better what we are talking about. I just searched ma long warm up and here we go :)

UpSideDownCarl
03-15-2022, 03:19 PM
I can do it here, but probably not on our channel due to rights of content owners.
for the cone on the rod concept, refer to this footage.

[20171020] ITTF - INS | MA Long Warm-up Training | 2017 Men‘s World Cup - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IYKx7MafeM)

You will see it from many angles so you can imagine better what we are talking about. I just searched ma long warm up and here we go :)
You could make video of yourself doing what you are talking about though....right? And then point to a comparison to ML's technique.

I hope you sort things out. To me the issue is, if you want to teach people, and you want them to be receptive and learn, then you have to learn to communicate your ideas so that:

1) People get drawn in and become more interested.
2) YOUR AUDIENCE can understand what the ideas you are trying to communicate actually ARE.
3) The people who watch your videos go from not understanding something to having a better understanding of the concepts.

Unfortunately, at this point, I don't think any of that is happening. Hopefully you figure out how to make your content more accessible to your actual audience. I think it would be worth you doing the work to figure out why you are getting this kind of feedback and how you can make your content more easily understood.

You are not only trying to get us on this forum to understand it. Right? If your audience is people who are trying to learn, then hopefully you figure out ways to make it so your videos help people understand the concepts you are trying to present. At lease some of the people on this thread who are trying to give you constructive feedback are people who are fairly high level players. They are not actually your audience. But they seem to be saying the ideas are not coming across quite the way you would like. I would say: it would be worthwhile thinking about that issue.

SURF
03-16-2022, 12:32 PM
Carl, without offense
actually what you said about us, doing it first and comparing to Ma later, does not make sense to me.

By your logic we need firstly beat Dima Ovtcharov in forehand exchange to have rights to tell that his forehand technique has many flaws and describe/explain them (as we are going to do - based on theories we are presenting). This also means that we need to have same technique like Ma Long to be able to describe ideas and show others what driving concepts for his strokes probably are.
This is not how progress works.

If I tell you, that almost everything divided by ZERO is INFINITY, how can I convince you that this is true? By doing it? Hardly. So what you imagine under those two terms in the first place? You have some feeling for it, right? You somehow know what I mean by that.

Thank you for your inputs, we will try to make content more accesible to audience, but you can not expect us to explaining the way we get there. We will do examples when needed. Also as was told before, some lessons will be much easier to understand. There will be something for everyone.

Have a nice day, guys :)

UpSideDownCarl
03-16-2022, 01:58 PM
Carl, without offense
actually what you said about us, doing it first and comparing to Ma later, does not make sense to me.

By your logic we need firstly beat Dima Ovtcharov in forehand exchange to have rights to tell that his forehand technique has many flaws and describe/explain them (as we are going to do - based on theories we are presenting). This also means that we need to have same technique like Ma Long to be able to describe ideas and show others what driving concepts for his strokes probably are.
This is not how progress works.

If I tell you, that almost everything divided by ZERO is INFINITY, how can I convince you that this is true? By doing it? Hardly. So what you imagine under those two terms in the first place? You have some feeling for it, right? You somehow know what I mean by that.

Thank you for your inputs, we will try to make content more accesible to audience, but you can not expect us to explaining the way we get there. We will do examples when needed. Also as was told before, some lessons will be much easier to understand. There will be something for everyone.

Have a nice day, guys :)
Clearly, you did not understand what I wrote or what the intention was.

If you demonstrate, and say, "I am trying to show this concept, but Ma Long does it better," if you want them to see Ma Long's technique and use it to show what you mean. If you can show the technique you are talking about adequately, and then say that there are players who do it better that people can watch, YOU can still show the technique you are talking about.

You do not have to be the best player in the world to show a concept, and you do not have to have the best strokes in the world to show an idea that will help people improve their strokes.

So, you could show the technique yourself and then explain how and why a particular top pro does it better but how a regular person could take that concept to help their own technique improve.

UpSideDownCarl
03-16-2022, 02:15 PM
If you want people to be interested in your videos and you want to get people to learn from your videos, you will need to learn how to communicate your ideas so people understand the ideas you are presenting.

I do wish you the best in your endeavor. I would like you to succeed. But what you are presenting will need to be communicated clearly, which also requires being able to understand why, something that you understand clearly is not being understood by the people to whom you are trying to present the information.

In the end, you get to decide how you want to present your ideas. And all I can say is, good luck.