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paras.oriental
04-22-2012, 06:13 AM
Guys, Can any one tell me that whether Ma Long is playing is Olympic singles or not?? :(:(

I deadly wanted him to play.. He should not only compete in Team event but also in Singles ,as he is the most deserving one for Olympic Gold :D

judah000
04-22-2012, 06:28 AM
Well that decision is still on Liu Guoliang

paras.oriental
04-22-2012, 06:30 AM
I pray to Almighty God............ Please Ma Long should play... :(

johndol
04-22-2012, 10:23 AM
ma long vs zhang jike in the olympics final will be the most thrilling encounter, and i really hope jike will be at his best form. with it the match will be much more worthy of a gold medal.

personally i really love their encounter at slovenian open final previously, and i really hope they can repeat that.

Tadex
04-22-2012, 12:41 PM
I disagree. It should be Wang Hao and ZJK or Ma Long. As good as ZJK and Ma Long are I still think they have minor problems. Ma Long is that he seems to get bad nerves and ZJK sometimes just doesn't show up until the second or third set which can be fatal in the Olympics against top competition. Wang Hao may have had an off year by his standards but he hasn't lost to a non-Chinese player since 2010 and that was RSM.

azlan
04-22-2012, 01:20 PM
Yeah Tadex, I kinda feel the same way too. Wang Hao may not be in the same spotlight as the other two, but he rarely got in trouble with unheralded players..in fact never recently. Mr Consistency.....probably that's why he is still up there on Liu's lists of players.

UpSideDownCarl
04-22-2012, 01:48 PM
Yeah, it is hard to say. The three Chinese players who are qualified to go to the Olympics are:

1) Wang Hao
2) Zhang Jike
3) Ma Long

Liu Gouliang, I believe gets to decide who plays in the singles. We will see what he does. For Wang Hao, it also might be a last chance to add that title to his belt and put him up as one of the greats. Ma Long and Zhang Jike will have other chances. But, I will be okay with waiting to see what Liu Gouliang decides. And it does not really matter to me who plays and who wins. I will be rooting for upsets just because China winning is too predictable. :) Upsets will be good for the sport and get more television coverage.

harrybelafonte
04-22-2012, 03:13 PM
so only 2 out of three then,! prob go with world ranking or will he give wang hao 1 more chance?
I would go with ma and zhang,,wang had 2 chances and lost..

Tadex
04-22-2012, 05:21 PM
Do you guys think LGL holds his own closed tournament to decide? XD with Ma Lin, XX and WLQ entered too :D It would be so good to watch

Vega
04-22-2012, 06:31 PM
Don't forgert that Wang Hao and Zahng Jike are the 2 nominated players for the single tournament and it's not so easy to replace one of them with Ma Long. Only way would be to take one of them completely out of the tournament and play neither singels nor team! So If Ma Long shall play singles Wang Hao or Zhang Jike are out of the team and i can't imagine Liu Guoliang do this..
So probably it will be Wang Hao and Zhang Jike in singels and Ma Long only team..

YosuaYosan
04-23-2012, 05:40 AM
My best guess is that Ma Long will play in the team tournament and yep thats all..
Unless Ma Long show some real mental prowess he would have no chance, even probably for the next 2016 Olympics..

WiWa
04-23-2012, 08:05 AM
I disagree. It should be Wang Hao and ZJK or Ma Long. As good as ZJK and Ma Long are I still think they have minor problems. Ma Long is that he seems to get bad nerves and ZJK sometimes just doesn't show up until the second or third set which can be fatal in the Olympics against top competition. Wang Hao may have had an off year by his standards but he hasn't lost to a non-Chinese player since 2010 and that was RSM.

He got crushed by Dima at the World Team Cup 2011 ;) But if it is true that Wang or Zhang couldn't play teams if they were kicked out of the singles by LGL, it seems pretty obvious that they will both play singles. And about Ma Long, the only player he lost to is Koki Niwa, who will most likely not be playing in the OS singles :) So there is not too much reason to hold one of them away from the event, they all have good odds against any other player.

UpSideDownCarl
04-23-2012, 08:52 AM
Don't forgert that Wang Hao and Zahng Jike are the 2 nominated players for the single tournament and it's not so easy to replace one of them with Ma Long. Only way would be to take one of them completely out of the tournament and play neither singels nor team! So If Ma Long shall play singles Wang Hao or Zhang Jike are out of the team and i can't imagine Liu Guoliang do this..
So probably it will be Wang Hao and Zhang Jike in singels and Ma Long only team..

Are you sure about this. I did not realize that they qualified for SINGLES and that Liu Gouliang could not decide who plays what. I thought they just qualified and I thought Ma Long just qualified. Why would how they qualified determine that who can play singles? I don't really know anything, but that would seem stupid to me if how they qualified eliminated anyone specifically from singles without the coach being able to make a decision.

It would also reassert, to me, that the Olympics is no longer as important a tournament as it used to be. The best players should be able to go and play in the singles regardless of country. And they are not allowing that any more. There are several tournaments that will have a higher level of competition than the Olympic singles event because of the qualification process and the restriction of players to 2 per country for singles.

sxTT
04-23-2012, 09:10 AM
My best guess is that Ma Long will play in the team tournament and yep thats all..
Unless Ma Long show some real mental prowess he would have no chance, even probably for the next 2016 Olympics..

IMHO ma long has some real mental prowess, but thats just my opinion

sxTT
04-23-2012, 09:16 AM
Are you sure about this. I did not realize that they qualified for SINGLES and that Liu Gouliang could not decide who plays what. I thought they just qualified and I thought Ma Long just qualified. Why would how they qualified determine that who can play singles? I don't really know anything, but that would seem stupid to me if how they qualified eliminated anyone specifically from singles without the coach being able to make a decision.

It would also reassert, to me, that the Olympics is no longer as important a tournament as it used to be. The best players should be able to go and play in the singles regardless of country. And they are not allowing that any more. There are several tournaments that will have a higher level of competition than the Olympic singles event because of the qualification process and the restriction of players to 2 per country for singles.

that is what my thoughts are exactly, does it really say the ZJK and WH are the singles players and ML is for the team competition or its still not decided yet?

Vega
04-23-2012, 10:07 AM
that is what my thoughts are exactly, does it really say the ZJK and WH are the singles players and ML is for the team competition or its still not decided yet?

It's what i heard from several sources and what has been discussed a long time in our german forum :)
Some time ago (somewhere last year, can't exactly remember when) the federations had to nominate their players for singles and did it according to the world rankings at that time. So e.g. for Germany Timo Boll and Dima Ovtcharov were the two players and for China Wang Hao and Zhang Jike. The only way to replace one of these players with another one playing Singles would be to scratch them completely out (e.g. say they are injured) so they can't play Team then as well.

paras.oriental
04-23-2012, 06:44 PM
Are you sure about this. I did not realize that they qualified for SINGLES and that Liu Gouliang could not decide who plays what. I thought they just qualified and I thought Ma Long just qualified. Why would how they qualified determine that who can play singles? I don't really know anything, but that would seem stupid to me if how they qualified eliminated anyone specifically from singles without the coach being able to make a decision.

It would also reassert, to me, that the Olympics is no longer as important a tournament as it used to be. The best players should be able to go and play in the singles regardless of country. And they are not allowing that any more. There are several tournaments that will have a higher level of competition than the Olympic singles event because of the qualification process and the restriction of players to 2 per country for singles.

I totally agree wid u...

It wasn't defined that if thet win WTTC or the World cup they will enter the Singles in Olympics, thats it. They just qualified as Ma Long also qualified with them for the Olympics, now its in the hand of LGL whom to play what. And as far as i think Ma nd ZJK must play singles as they are at their best Currently (although Ma lost to Koki , but that can be left :P) , Both can easily decimate Wang hao in any game. And they tackle non-chinese players also well.

Trismegistus
04-23-2012, 08:10 PM
Hey guys, finally registered so I could reply to this thread...

Check this out: EDIT apparently I can't post links until I have 5 posts. I wanted to link an article on tabletennista(dot)com entitled "No pressure for Ma Long & Guo Yue" from which I took the ML quote below.

Ma Long: "Although I already knew that I won't be able to play in the Singles, I still have the honor to play for the Team. I just hope I would be able to fight a good battle then give glory to China in the Olympcis (sic)."
Initial qualifications for Olympics are based on the world ranking immediately after WTTC 2011, which meant that the first two spots for China went to WH and ZJK. Based on what I've read, LGL cannot sub Ma Long for either of those two in the singles without removing WH or ZJK from the tournament completely. So based on that, as well as Ma Long's quote, I think the chances of ML playing singles are very small.

It's pretty ridiculous that the path is clear for ZJK to win the "Grand Slam" over the 2011-2012 seasons when Ma Long has absolutely dominated him over that same period and has undeniably been the dominant World #1 as well. Unfortunately, ML's poor form at last year's WTTC seems to have created some lasting problems for him.

WiWa
04-23-2012, 08:29 PM
Ah thanks for the info Trismegistus. Kinda weird that you can complete your Grand Slam without meeting the world's no. 1 indeed :p I'd love to see Zhang Jike win the Olympics, but an encounter with Ma Long would be the ultimate final of course. Hopefully they will play many more matches against each other in the Pro Tours.

YosuaYosan
04-24-2012, 02:38 AM
See.. Ma Long won't play in the singles..
At least he could achieve one gold OLYMPIC medal for his country from the men's team..

A bit off topic..
I got the feeling that Zhang Jike won't win this one..
I am rooting for Joo though :) Hope he could prove something epic during his table tennis career..

sxTT
04-24-2012, 04:32 AM
joo is a strong contender but i guess we all have our own favorite players i would like to see Boll win the olympics

azlan
04-24-2012, 04:47 AM
See.. Ma Long won't play in the singles..
At least he could achieve one gold OLYMPIC medal for his country from the men's team..

A bit off topic..
I got the feeling that Zhang Jike won't win this one..
I am rooting for Joo though :) Hope he could prove something epic during his table tennis career..

Exactly what I was saying. No individual singles for Ma Long:)..Do I really have to guess who do you think gonna win it for you Yosua? hahaha If jike plays like he played in WTTC, he'll get the gold. Anything less, I think it's gonna be Wang Hao. The guy is consistent.

fongchengloy
04-24-2012, 05:22 AM
My guess, China will send one CPen and one Shakehand for singles and the Shakehand should be Zhang Jike after the recent defeat of MaLong to the young Youth Olympic Champ.

NTclub
04-24-2012, 06:21 AM
Ma long can not play in singles of London. See this page. (http://www.ittf.com/World_Events/2012OG/Qual_system_OG2012_EN.pdf)
Two qualified players with high rank at 2011 in one team can play in singles. Ma-long was a third place of ranking in chinese players in 2011. Ma-long can plays in team tournament in London. STEGER BASTIAN (Germany) and NIWA KOKI (Japan) also can not play in singles. We intorduce present 68 qualified players in our WEB site. The players with red back ground color can not play in singles. Here! (http://sports.geocities.jp/nttabletennisuclub/topics.html)

JustAlt
04-24-2012, 08:31 AM
I'm just hoping that Wang Hao can pull himself together this time :D.

Anders
04-24-2012, 08:37 AM
See.. Ma Long won't play in the singles..
At least he could achieve one gold OLYMPIC medal for his country from the men's team..

A bit off topic..
I got the feeling that Zhang Jike won't win this one..
I am rooting for Joo though :) Hope he could prove something epic during his table tennis career..

Sorry to not be mainstream guys... But if Michael Maze plays, anything can happen. And I think we all know that ;)

judah000
04-24-2012, 11:06 AM
I have the feeling that Wang hao would win this title. :p

azlan
04-24-2012, 11:38 AM
There are several players I am interested to see how they progress in the singles. Aside from the usual suspects, I will be rooting for Primorac, Weixing, Norshad and Saive.

Tadex
04-24-2012, 12:42 PM
Wang Hao vs Timo Boll/Joo Se Hyuk Final please

WiWa
04-24-2012, 12:42 PM
Sorry to not be mainstream guys... But if Michael Maze plays, anything can happen. And I think we all know that ;)

Very true! I think someone like Dima needs to toss out Wang Hao though, but then Maze could defenitely go to the finals. Then he will have a better trophy list than Boll hehe.

paras.oriental
04-25-2012, 06:18 AM
I'm just hoping that Wang Hao can pull himself together this time :D.

Yes.. Wang hao must backout of Singles and let the Top 2 players play in Singles :P

fantasticbags
04-25-2012, 07:19 AM
I love him , too , But I think Liu should give Wanghao one more chance to realize his dream, he also is very great player in the world!

Tadex
04-25-2012, 09:18 AM
All this love for Ma Long and disregard for how good ZJK and Wang Hao are is such a blinkered view. Ma Long has yet to win a World Championship or World Cup singles whereas both Wang Hao and ZJK have done both. In fact Wang Hao had to beat Ma Long at the last World Championships to set up the final with ZJK.

I don't think many people will argue against ZJK's inclusion because he has played relatively well over the last year, often being seen as the only person who can challenge Ma Long. However, he has some obvious weaknesses. His performances can sometimes be questionable even when he wins he seems to make hard work of it particularly against other top 10 players.

Wang Hao's form seemed to be missing since last year's World Championship but if you watch his play he seemed to be holding back. He wasn't moving as well and trying things which he normally wouldn't. However, when he wasn't only playing for himself he upped his game significantly like at Dortmund where he dropped only a few games and he destroyed a player he traditionally has had trouble against, Ryu Seung Min. Also in the Pro Tour Grand Finals when he was playing against Ma Long, he won two sets when his level suddenly reappeared but then he returned to form and eventually lost. What I'm saying in regards to Wang Hao is that he is a wise, experienced player and he has probably worked out that after the World Championships he would be playing in the Olympics so he just spent the last year re-moulding his game in preparation and he doesn't need to show it to the world until he's ready and he needs to. As we near the Olympics, notice his form beginning to return and he will hit his peak in London 2012.

A final word on Ma Long, I think that Ma Long's reputation has been overinflated by that incredible unbeaten run but it shouldn't be forgotten that only 5 or 6 players can actually challenge him but of those players only 2 or 3 have been in the right framework during that run. Wang Hao as I explained was biding his time, Timo was constantly pulling out of Pro Tours either through injury or working on his own game in Europe, Ma Lin was on a downward slide towards retirement, Xu Xin was still young and inexperienced (much like Ma Long before but is playing himself into maturity), Joo Se Hyuk had a few bright lights but in general he struggles against the Chinese players because of the amount of shot power they possess and finally ZJK who as I said has mental issues in his game that needs ironing out.

All in all, I'm not saying I'm unbiased (because I' not) but take a step back and look at the candidates more clearly. Ma Long is not as good as you might think. Just circumstances over the last year alongside the right motivation (fighting to go to the Olympics) has made him play and seem better.

sxTT
04-25-2012, 10:58 AM
All this love for Ma Long and disregard for how good ZJK and Wang Hao are is such a blinkered view. Ma Long has yet to win a World Championship or World Cup singles whereas both Wang Hao and ZJK have done both. In fact Wang Hao had to beat Ma Long at the last World Championships to set up the final with ZJK.

I don't think many people will argue against ZJK's inclusion because he has played relatively well over the last year, often being seen as the only person who can challenge Ma Long. However, he has some obvious weaknesses. His performances can sometimes be questionable even when he wins he seems to make hard work of it particularly against other top 10 players.

Wang Hao's form seemed to be missing since last year's World Championship but if you watch his play he seemed to be holding back. He wasn't moving as well and trying things which he normally wouldn't. However, when he wasn't only playing for himself he upped his game significantly like at Dortmund where he dropped only a few games and he destroyed a player he traditionally has had trouble against, Ryu Seung Min. Also in the Pro Tour Grand Finals when he was playing against Ma Long, he won two sets when his level suddenly reappeared but then he returned to form and eventually lost. What I'm saying in regards to Wang Hao is that he is a wise, experienced player and he has probably worked out that after the World Championships he would be playing in the Olympics so he just spent the last year re-moulding his game in preparation and he doesn't need to show it to the world until he's ready and he needs to. As we near the Olympics, notice his form beginning to return and he will hit his peak in London 2012.

A final word on Ma Long, I think that Ma Long's reputation has been overinflated by that incredible unbeaten run but it shouldn't be forgotten that only 5 or 6 players can actually challenge him but of those players only 2 or 3 have been in the right framework during that run. Wang Hao as I explained was biding his time, Timo was constantly pulling out of Pro Tours either through injury or working on his own game in Europe, Ma Lin was on a downward slide towards retirement, Xu Xin was still young and inexperienced (much like Ma Long before but is playing himself into maturity), Joo Se Hyuk had a few bright lights but in general he struggles against the Chinese players because of the amount of shot power they possess and finally ZJK who as I said has mental issues in his game that needs ironing out.

All in all, I'm not saying I'm unbiased (because I' not) but take a step back and look at the candidates more clearly. Ma Long is not as good as you might think. Just circumstances over the last year alongside the right motivation (fighting to go to the Olympics) has made him play and seem better.

no disrespect to your opinion but for me he is as good as i think he is, he lost in the worlds and was not able to join the world cup because of this, everybody looses its unfortunate that he lost in the worlds and there is no excuse for that, but he was able to bounce out of it and has proven that he can win events, just my opinion though and im just a low level player and no expert in game analysis

WiWa
04-25-2012, 11:02 AM
no disrespect to your opinion but for me he is as good as i think he is, he lost in the worlds and was not able to join the world cup because of this, everybody looses its unfortunate that he lost in the worlds and there is no excuse for that, but he was able to bounce out of it and has proven that he can win events, just my opinion though and im just a low level player and no expert in game analysis

He absolutely is the best in the world right now, but I think what Tadex meant is that people tend to think he is like a legend, or like Waldner or Wang Liqin once were. In order to be that good he needs to win titles first. He has many years to do so, so it is very possible that it will happen. But at the moment it hasn't happened, so he's not that good yet. Everything goes in steps. For Ma Long the first step is to beat Japanese juniors :p Then he can look further ;)

Tadex
04-25-2012, 11:13 AM
What WiWa said. Ma Long is a fantastic player but to say unequivocally that he deserves to go to the Olympics this year ahead of Wang Hao and ZJK is a little blindsided. If there were 3 singles places then there would be no doubt that all three would go. People just seem to think Ma Long deserves to go because of his recent form and forgetting how consistent Wang Hao has been over the last decade and how well ZJK has performed on the big stage. Ma Long's time will come.

sxTT
04-25-2012, 12:37 PM
He absolutely is the best in the world right now, but I think what Tadex meant is that people tend to think he is like a legend, or like Waldner or Wang Liqin once were. In order to be that good he needs to win titles first. He has many years to do so, so it is very possible that it will happen. But at the moment it hasn't happened, so he's not that good yet. Everything goes in steps. For Ma Long the first step is to beat Japanese juniors :p Then he can look further ;)

well i do hope that they face each other again in the olympics, although im a big ma long fan im very impressed with the way koki niwa played, very smart game with fewer errors and ma long lost, no excuse for that it is what it is, actually i really like koki niwa, the way he also beat lin gaoyuan was amazing, and i also agree that that ML is one of the best if not the best ATM

sxTT
04-25-2012, 12:57 PM
What WiWa said. Ma Long is a fantastic player but to say unequivocally that he deserves to go to the Olympics this year ahead of Wang Hao and ZJK is a little blindsided. If there were 3 singles places then there would be no doubt that all three would go. People just seem to think Ma Long deserves to go because of his recent form and forgetting how consistent Wang Hao has been over the last decade and how well ZJK has performed on the big stage. Ma Long's time will come.

he had his chance to join the olympics as a singles players but he lost in WTTC so he was not selected, do i think he deserves to be in the olympics because of his recent form? absolutely yes, but do i think that he deserves to be in the olympics singles ahead of WH and ZJK no i dont, WH and ZJK had the opportunity and they held their ground and proven they are worthy of a spot in the olympics, if ma long had his great form earlier he definitely has a chance to join the singles, its a shame that they only allow 2 players per country in the singles though because i still think that he unequivocally deserves to go to the olympics

WiWa
04-25-2012, 01:25 PM
he had his chance to join the olympics as a singles players but he lost in WTTC so he was not selected, do i think he deserves to be in the olympics because of his recent form? absolutely yes, but do i think that he deserves to be in the olympics singles ahead of WH and ZJK no i dont, WH and ZJK had the opportunity and they held their ground and proven they are worthy of a spot in the olympics, if ma long had his great form earlier he definitely has a chance to join the singles, its a shame that they only allow 2 players per country in the singles though because i still think that he unequivocally deserves to go to the olympics

Well said. It is indeed the restriction of 2 players that makes us think 'why are players like Ma Long and Xu Xin not playing in the Singles'. They all deserve it, but only two can go. Players like Ryu, Koki, Süss/Baum/Steger will not participate as well.

UpSideDownCarl
04-25-2012, 02:00 PM
A couple of things. First, I think the way the ITTF has organized the process for qualifying for the Olympics is really lame. I am not a Ma Long fan. This would go for any player and any country. A country that is loaded with talent but cannot send the player who has been ranked #1 in the world since October 2011 because he was coming off an injury in 2011 and therefore was not ranked high enough over a year before the Olympics (May 2011 Ma Long's ranking was 5th in the world and that was not high enough for him to qualify for the singles event), just says to me that ITTF has made rules that make no sense and are not good for the sport. If the current #1 ranking player in the world was blocked out of playing in the World Cup in the fall because of his ranking in May 2011, and is now also being blocked from playing in the singles event in the Olympics because of that same ranking from the same month of last year (May 2011), I personally think there is a problem.

Since August 2011, has Ma Long played better than Zhang Jike? YES.

Since August 2011, has Ma Long played better than Wang Hao? YES, YES, YES.

Do I care if he plays in the Olympics? Not really. But the idea that the guy who has been close to unbeatable for the last 8 months and has been ranked at #1 for the last 6 months, did not qualify because of his ranking (#5 in the World in May 2011) was not high enough a year ago and 14 months before the Olympic games begin, I have to say, if anything is stupid, THIS IS STUPID. And the people who will suffer is ALL OF US: EVERYONE.

THIS IS NOT GOOD FOR THE SPORT THAT THE CURRENT BEST PLAYER IN THE WORLD CANNOT PLAY IN THE OLYMPIC SINGLES EVENT.

Should Wang Hao play in the singles event? YES.

Should Zhang Jike play in the singles event? YES.

Should Ma Long play in the singles event? YES, YES, YES, YES, YES, YES, YES.

Should Wang Hao and Zhang Jike get the shot before Ma Long? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

I personally thinK that everyone in the top 20 should automatically qualify no matter what country they are from. I think that, perhaps they should restrict the number of players that could play in a team event from one country. But, I don't think that the ITTF should block players from playing in the singles event based on such foolish criteria.

If the criteria was world ranking as of April 2012 instead of May 2011, then Ma Long would unquestionably qualify first.

ALSO, FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO SAID THAT MA LONG HAS BEEN PLAYING SO WELL BECAUSE HE WANTED TO QUALIFY FOR THE OLYMPIC SINGLES: IF THESE ARE THE RULES, HE HAS KNOWN SINCE MAY 2011 THAT HE CANNOT QUALIFY TO PLAY IN THE OLYMPICS SINGLES EVENT SINCE LAST MAY. SO HIS RUN THAT PUT HIM IN THE # 1 SLOT, CAME WITH THE KNOWLEDGE THAT HE COULD NOT DO ANYTHING TO CHANGE THE FACT THAT THERE WAS NO POSSIBLE WAY FOR HIM TO WIN AN OLYMPIC GOLD IN SINGLES THIS TIME AROUND AND WOULD HAVE TO, AS OF MAY 2011, WAIT FOR OVER 5 YEARS FOR AN OPPORTUNITY TO PLAY FOR THAT TITLE.

He did not win the World Championships because he was not in form yet. He still was not in form in the summer of 2011 during the Chinese Super League. He only hit his form in August of 2011. That still had to do with an injury he sustained in 2010 that kept him out of action for close to 9 months (6 months, then he played a few tournaments, then another 3 months).

In the end, I hope that someone new and interesting wins the Olympic Gold. I might think that the finals will be Zhang Jike vs Wang Hao and that Zhang Jike will win again, just like in the World Cup and World Championships. But I will root for anyone NEW to win.

I also think it is a shame that a rising start like Koki Niwa will not get a chance to test his metal in the Olympic Singles event. I see many names in the top 20 who will not be able to play, and the world will be the worse for the fact that they did not qualify to play for reasons that do not have to do with SPORT OR SPORTSMANSHIP, but instead have to do with POLITICS.

And again, the people who suffer most from this are the fans and the sport. Because a SPORT that does not send its #1 ranked player to the Olympic Singles Event (a sport where the #1 player in the world is not qualified to play in the Olympic Singles Event) is not a sport that is presented to the public intelligently. The ITTF is the problem here. This is the kind of thing that cements the fact that Table Tennis is a marginal sport that will not get a great deal of Media Coverage. Stupid things like many of the rule changes, or the idea that they are going to change to a ball that is, once again, bigger, slower, and gets less spin, is an example of the same kind of bungling that the ITTF is famous for.

With these new rules that the ITTF has instituted, the Asian games and the World Championships, singles event, without question, have a higher level of play, then will be present in the Table Tennis Singles Event at the 2012 Olympic Games in London.

Sorry, but this, to me is sad indeed.

WiWa
04-25-2012, 02:42 PM
And again, the people who suffer most from this are the fans and the sport. Because a SPORT that does not send its #1 ranked player to the Olympic Singles Event (a sport where the #1 player in the world is not qualified to play in the Olympic Singles Event) is not a sport that is presented to the public intelligently. The ITTF is the problem here. This is the kind of thing that cements the fact that Table Tennis is a marginal sport that will not get a great deal of Media Coverage. Stupid things like many of the rule changes, or the idea that they are going to change to a ball that is, once again, bigger, slower, and gets less spin, is an example of the same kind of bungling that the ITTF is famous for.


I agree with u, but the quote would get kinda big if I quoted the whole post :p I want to say some things about this though because I think the ITTF is (often) blamed for things they can't do much about. I'm not saying the ITTF are doing a great job, but I want to take away some possible prejudices that are incorrect in my opinion.

To start with the ball change: we all know this is a result of the celluloid production decline/ban. It is good that the ITTF gives manufacturers a couple of years the time to start working on a new ball, before they actually start using it. The glue ban was a result of the Olympic Committee threatening to ban table tennis from the Olympics. Since our sport is not big, the ITTF can't really stand up against the Olympic Committee. They wouldn't care if the Olympics had rowing instead of table tennis.

The same thing holds for the player restriction. Although I agree with all of you that this might be a stupid rule, it is not the ITTF's own idea. The Olympic Committee doesn't want a sport on the Olympics that is dominated by 1 country like China dominates table tennis. I believe I heard or read that this was also a reason why the Committee was considering dropping table tennis out of the Olympics. The idea of the Olympics is of course harmonization between countries playing sports together, and what they want to see is a race between athletes from all over the world until one stands out and takes the victory. China taking 8/12 medals (the 4 others were silver and bronze in the women's and men's team event, since China only has one team in both) isn't really a good example of that. In a desperate try to get at least one non-Chinese player on the singles podium in London, this was the ITTF's only possibility.

What makes more sense is the criticism on the qualification criteria. Assigning spots 1 year before the tournament is a little ridiculous. However, the WTTC was the last big individual event where every player in the world could participate. It might be better to change the system of the World Cup and postpone the assignment of Olympic spots to after that event is held, or maybe include the results of the Pro Tour Grand Finals, since this is a tournament that takes into account the results over a long period of time. Still it makes sense to say that the Olympics should be played by the best players of the 4 years preceding the event. And Wang Hao has been the best player of the world in 2009-2010, then should Ma Long go instead of him because of being the best for half a year in 2011 till now? That would be weird as well..

So I do agree that it is sad that these things are happening, but I don't think you can blame the ITTF for it. Their decisions are justified I think.

yurybarquero
04-25-2012, 04:02 PM
Mr. Carl great post. It could not have been said better.

scylla24
04-25-2012, 06:50 PM
All this love for Ma Long and disregard for how good ZJK and Wang Hao are is such a blinkered view. Ma Long has yet to win a World Championship or World Cup singles whereas both Wang Hao and ZJK have done both. In fact Wang Hao had to beat Ma Long at the last World Championships to set up the final with ZJK.

I don't think many people will argue against ZJK's inclusion because he has played relatively well over the last year, often being seen as the only person who can challenge Ma Long. However, he has some obvious weaknesses. His performances can sometimes be questionable even when he wins he seems to make hard work of it particularly against other top 10 players.

Wang Hao's form seemed to be missing since last year's World Championship but if you watch his play he seemed to be holding back. He wasn't moving as well and trying things which he normally wouldn't. However, when he wasn't only playing for himself he upped his game significantly like at Dortmund where he dropped only a few games and he destroyed a player he traditionally has had trouble against, Ryu Seung Min. Also in the Pro Tour Grand Finals when he was playing against Ma Long, he won two sets when his level suddenly reappeared but then he returned to form and eventually lost. What I'm saying in regards to Wang Hao is that he is a wise, experienced player and he has probably worked out that after the World Championships he would be playing in the Olympics so he just spent the last year re-moulding his game in preparation and he doesn't need to show it to the world until he's ready and he needs to. As we near the Olympics, notice his form beginning to return and he will hit his peak in London 2012.

A final word on Ma Long, I think that Ma Long's reputation has been overinflated by that incredible unbeaten run but it shouldn't be forgotten that only 5 or 6 players can actually challenge him but of those players only 2 or 3 have been in the right framework during that run. Wang Hao as I explained was biding his time, Timo was constantly pulling out of Pro Tours either through injury or working on his own game in Europe, Ma Lin was on a downward slide towards retirement, Xu Xin was still young and inexperienced (much like Ma Long before but is playing himself into maturity), Joo Se Hyuk had a few bright lights but in general he struggles against the Chinese players because of the amount of shot power they possess and finally ZJK who as I said has mental issues in his game that needs ironing out.

All in all, I'm not saying I'm unbiased (because I' not) but take a step back and look at the candidates more clearly. Ma Long is not as good as you might think. Just circumstances over the last year alongside the right motivation (fighting to go to the Olympics) has made him play and seem better.

Yeah I am going to have to agree with the sentiment of most of the people who replied to your comment. Yes Ma Long hasn't won a world championship, but that in of itself doesn't say all that much to me, especially in regards to his comparison with ZJK. Table tennis has a lot to do with matchups and styles of play. Ma Long's style has been improving but for the past two world championships his style wasn't a good match up against Wang Hao. His short game isn't as good as ZJK, so he doesn't get the first attack as often against Wang Hao as ZJK does. Ma Long is great at counter looping but even he has problems if the first initial attack of his opponent is of super high quality, which Wang Hao's attacks are. Even despite that, Wang Hao still has to play his best to have a chance against Ma Long. Then you look at ZJK, he has an absolutely horrible record against Ma Long. If the seeding had been different, and Wang Hao had first had to face ZJK and if he lost, and Ma Long got to face ZJK in the final, chances would have been that Ma Long would be a world champion. So your suggestion that ZJK deserves to be the one playing singles, based off the fact that he is world champion really doesn't do it for me.

And frankly, for the past year or so, Ma Long has been unstoppable. And I say this even despite his recent lose to Koki Niwa. For the past year, he has been basically untouchable, winning several tournaments with hardly losing a set. ZJK is the only one who has greater than a 30 percent chance of beating him. Thats a level of domination we haven't seen in a long time. And that is the type of consideration that a country really should look at in considering who represents them at the Olympics. You could lose all the time to your fellow Chinese players, but as long as you have the best win rate against non-Chinese players, you should be the one that gets to go. Therefore, Ma Long's potential weakness against Wang Hao, as shown in the last two WTTCs shouldn't be a factor. I feel that ZJK throughout his career has shown a much greater susceptibility towards losing to non-Chinese players than Ma Long or Wang Hao. When you compare his results against players that have played against both him and Ma Long in the past year or so, even in the matches that he wins, he does so with far less authority and domination than Ma Long, and in high stress situations, or when his game isn't at its peak, that can lead to a much greater chance of a loss than Ma Long. ZJK in general has shown a much greater weakness to those who tend to have a strong backhand relative to their forehand, which a lot of non Chinese players exhibit.

Given this fact, I place Wang Hao at number 1 in terms of who should represent China, and then Ma Long two. Wang Hao despite his not top form, still hasn't really lost to a non-Chinese in a long time. Yes he lost to Ovchtarov, in their teams match, but he showed that in a serious match of best of 7, he was still way better. He dominated Ovchtarov in their match that was only a couple of weeks later. I can't even remember when the last time Wang Hao lost to a non Chinese other than that game.

UpSideDownCarl
04-25-2012, 07:06 PM
Great post Wiwa. I agree with all you have said.

By the way, as far as the glue ban, I am okay with the banning of hazardous materials. But I think it is strange that safe chemicals that expand the sponge and enhance the performance of the rubbers and do not present a health issue are also banned.*

As far as the ball is concerned, I don't know about the validity of the celluloid ban. I was under the impression they resolved that issue and celluloid can be produced safely. *But in any case, why make the ball larger even if it is a marginal amount and why not research until they can find a material that will spin and bounce closer to a celluloid ball.*

It is sad though that the issues about the players even have to come up. From a real standpoint, agreeing with what you said about Wang Hao, it is also a shame that legends like Ma Lin and Wang Liqin cannot get a chance at solidifying their place in history with one more shot at gold. I don't think either would win. But it is not their play in the tournament that will determine that.

paras.oriental
04-25-2012, 07:15 PM
A couple of things. First, I think the way the ITTF has organized the process for qualifying for the Olympics is really lame. I am not a Ma Long fan. This would go for any player and any country. A country that is loaded with talent but cannot send the player who has been ranked #1 in the world since October 2011 because he was coming off an injury in 2011 and therefore was not ranked high enough over a year before the Olympics (May 2011 Ma Long's ranking was 5th in the world and that was not high enough for him to qualify for the singles event), just says to me that ITTF has made rules that make no sense and are not good for the sport. If the current #1 ranking player in the world was blocked out of playing in the World Cup in the fall because of his ranking in May 2011, and is now also being blocked from playing in the singles event in the Olympics because of that same ranking from the same month of last year (May 2011), I personally think there is a problem.

Since August 2011, has Ma Long played better than Zhang Jike? YES.

Since August 2011, has Ma Long played better than Wang Hao? YES, YES, YES.

Do I care if he plays in the Olympics? Not really. But the idea that the guy who has been close to unbeatable for the last 8 months and has been ranked at #1 for the last 6 months, did not qualify because of his ranking (#5 in the World in May 2011) was not high enough a year ago and 14 months before the Olympic games begin, I have to say, if anything is stupid, THIS IS STUPID. And the people who will suffer is ALL OF US: EVERYONE.

THIS IS NOT GOOD FOR THE SPORT THAT THE CURRENT BEST PLAYER IN THE WORLD CANNOT PLAY IN THE OLYMPIC SINGLES EVENT.

Should Wang Hao play in the singles event? YES.

Should Zhang Jike play in the singles event? YES.

Should Ma Long play in the singles event? YES, YES, YES, YES, YES, YES, YES.

Should Wang Hao and Zhang Jike get the shot before Ma Long? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

I personally thinK that everyone in the top 20 should automatically qualify no matter what country they are from. I think that, perhaps they should restrict the number of players that could play in a team event from one country. But, I don't think that the ITTF should block players from playing in the singles event based on such foolish criteria.

If the criteria was world ranking as of April 2012 instead of May 2011, then Ma Long would unquestionably qualify first.

ALSO, FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO SAID THAT MA LONG HAS BEEN PLAYING SO WELL BECAUSE HE WANTED TO QUALIFY FOR THE OLYMPIC SINGLES: IF THESE ARE THE RULES, HE HAS KNOWN SINCE MAY 2011 THAT HE CANNOT QUALIFY TO PLAY IN THE OLYMPICS SINGLES EVENT SINCE LAST MAY. SO HIS RUN THAT PUT HIM IN THE # 1 SLOT, CAME WITH THE KNOWLEDGE THAT HE COULD NOT DO ANYTHING TO CHANGE THE FACT THAT THERE WAS NO POSSIBLE WAY FOR HIM TO WIN AN OLYMPIC GOLD IN SINGLES THIS TIME AROUND AND WOULD HAVE TO, AS OF MAY 2011, WAIT FOR OVER 5 YEARS FOR AN OPPORTUNITY TO PLAY FOR THAT TITLE.

He did not win the World Championships because he was not in form yet. He still was not in form in the summer of 2011 during the Chinese Super League. He only hit his form in August of 2011. That still had to do with an injury he sustained in 2010 that kept him out of action for close to 9 months (6 months, then he played a few tournaments, then another 3 months).

In the end, I hope that someone new and interesting wins the Olympic Gold. I might think that the finals will be Zhang Jike vs Wang Hao and that Zhang Jike will win again, just like in the World Cup and World Championships. But I will root for anyone NEW to win.

I also think it is a shame that a rising start like Koki Niwa will not get a chance to test his metal in the Olympic Singles event. I see many names in the top 20 who will not be able to play, and the world will be the worse for the fact that they did not qualify to play for reasons that do not have to do with SPORT OR SPORTSMANSHIP, but instead have to do with POLITICS.

And again, the people who suffer most from this are the fans and the sport. Because a SPORT that does not send its #1 ranked player to the Olympic Singles Event (a sport where the #1 player in the world is not qualified to play in the Olympic Singles Event) is not a sport that is presented to the public intelligently. The ITTF is the problem here. This is the kind of thing that cements the fact that Table Tennis is a marginal sport that will not get a great deal of Media Coverage. Stupid things like many of the rule changes, or the idea that they are going to change to a ball that is, once again, bigger, slower, and gets less spin, is an example of the same kind of bungling that the ITTF is famous for.

With these new rules that the ITTF has instituted, the Asian games and the World Championships, singles event, without question, have a higher level of play, then will be present in the Table Tennis Singles Event at the 2012 Olympic Games in London.

Sorry, but this, to me is sad indeed.

Well Said Carl......... Have to Appreciate the way you presented your thoughts intelligently.. U really impressed me a lot.. And I think many others if they read it Sincerely.. And M a HARDCORE FAN of MA LONG :D..

And you are very correct that this is very bad example of True Sportsman Spirit that The World no 1 (My Dear) CAnnot play in Olympic Singles... :(

If he cant win the title then I dont want Wang or ZJK to win (Sorry for being Biased) , Timo or Korea's Ryu Seung Min Should Win it.

And Being a Ma Long fan , obviously , am Feeling very bad and sad for him :'(

barca
04-25-2012, 08:01 PM
To me, no matter who is playing China should win the gold medal.. All of them are equally good and no match to the rest..

Tadex
04-25-2012, 11:11 PM
Have to completely agree that the qualifying process is absolute dross but one small point to be picked up. Ma Long may not be able to play himself into the singles event but he definitely still needed to play himself into the teams and that is still quite a high honour which I'm sure was no small motivation. I'm not saying that is the only motivation either because missing out is also a big motivator but both these motivators would be absent to ZJK and WH.

paras.oriental
04-26-2012, 05:03 AM
Have to completely agree that the qualifying process is absolute dross but one small point to be picked up. Ma Long may not be able to play himself into the singles event but he definitely still needed to play himself into the teams and that is still quite a high honour which I'm sure was no small motivation. I'm not saying that is the only motivation either because missing out is also a big motivator but both these motivators would be absent to ZJK and WH.

Long Live the King.....!!!!

China is Going to win the TableTennis Title once again and I m sure Ma Long will perform extremely well :)

WiWa
04-26-2012, 09:32 AM
Yeah I am going to have to agree with the sentiment of most of the people who replied to your comment. Yes Ma Long hasn't won a world championship, but that in of itself doesn't say all that much to me, especially in regards to his comparison with ZJK. Table tennis has a lot to do with matchups and styles of play. Ma Long's style has been improving but for the past two world championships his style wasn't a good match up against Wang Hao. His short game isn't as good as ZJK, so he doesn't get the first attack as often against Wang Hao as ZJK does. Ma Long is great at counter looping but even he has problems if the first initial attack of his opponent is of super high quality, which Wang Hao's attacks are. Even despite that, Wang Hao still has to play his best to have a chance against Ma Long. Then you look at ZJK, he has an absolutely horrible record against Ma Long. If the seeding had been different, and Wang Hao had first had to face ZJK and if he lost, and Ma Long got to face ZJK in the final, chances would have been that Ma Long would be a world champion. So your suggestion that ZJK deserves to be the one playing singles, based off the fact that he is world champion really doesn't do it for me.

And frankly, for the past year or so, Ma Long has been unstoppable. And I say this even despite his recent lose to Koki Niwa. For the past year, he has been basically untouchable, winning several tournaments with hardly losing a set. ZJK is the only one who has greater than a 30 percent chance of beating him. Thats a level of domination we haven't seen in a long time. And that is the type of consideration that a country really should look at in considering who represents them at the Olympics. You could lose all the time to your fellow Chinese players, but as long as you have the best win rate against non-Chinese players, you should be the one that gets to go. Therefore, Ma Long's potential weakness against Wang Hao, as shown in the last two WTTCs shouldn't be a factor. I feel that ZJK throughout his career has shown a much greater susceptibility towards losing to non-Chinese players than Ma Long or Wang Hao. When you compare his results against players that have played against both him and Ma Long in the past year or so, even in the matches that he wins, he does so with far less authority and domination than Ma Long, and in high stress situations, or when his game isn't at its peak, that can lead to a much greater chance of a loss than Ma Long. ZJK in general has shown a much greater weakness to those who tend to have a strong backhand relative to their forehand, which a lot of non Chinese players exhibit.

Given this fact, I place Wang Hao at number 1 in terms of who should represent China, and then Ma Long two. Wang Hao despite his not top form, still hasn't really lost to a non-Chinese in a long time. Yes he lost to Ovchtarov, in their teams match, but he showed that in a serious match of best of 7, he was still way better. He dominated Ovchtarov in their match that was only a couple of weeks later. I can't even remember when the last time Wang Hao lost to a non Chinese other than that game.

It´s hard to compare them on their performance against foreigners, since they barely lose. It is true that Zhang drops more sets, but I can´t recall a close match against a foreigner that he didn't win. He struggles, but he always ends up winning. When he is being tested he starts to play twice as strong, whereas Ma Long usually has one performance level throughout the match. Like against Koki, he wasn't able to step up his game when Koki was playing so well. I agree that Wang Hao is sort of underrated in this discussion. But in the end any 2 players from Wang Hao/Xu Xin/Ma Long/Zhang Jike shouldn't drop a match in the singles. The best choice will also depend on the players they are gonna face in the later stages of the tournament, which is very hard to predict right now.

@Carl
If that is true about celluloid it is weird indeed, but I can't think of an incentive to change the ball when celluloid will remain available. I still don't really know what the new ball will be like and if the ball that is tested by Henzell for example will be the final product. Maybe the postponing of the introduction is a sign that they want to develop the ball further before releasing it officially. And Ma Lin already has the gold ;) But you are absolutely right about that, it is just that if they would be able to play and China would dominate, we might lose the Olympic table tennis tournament. So a tournament with a player restriction is better than no Olympic table tennis at all I guess :p

UpSideDownCarl
04-26-2012, 09:56 AM
@Carl...But you are absolutely right about that, it is just that if they would be able to play and China would dominate, we might lose the Olympic table tennis tournament. So a tournament with a player restriction is better than no Olympic table tennis at all I guess :p

Yeah, I know, I agree with you. That is why I was saying it is sad.

The saddest thing about it, say Ma Lin did get to play and had a great run and wins. Nobody has won 2 Olympic Golds in Singles before. It would put him where he belongs with the greats who have won more than one World Championship. Say Wang Liqin was able to play and had a great run and won. 3 World Championships and a Gold Medal in the Olympics would also be something nobody else has done. Neither of these guys, day to day, can keep up with the young guns. But they would both be capable of amping their game up a notch and winning one last big tournament. I don't think either scenario would happen if they were able to go. But they will never even get a shot at that kind of glory that would put them in a category that nobody else has ever achieved.

Ryu Seung Min will have a chance at that. He has one Olympic Gold and he can try to up his game for the tournament. And it would be totally amazing if he could somehow win against all odds. But he is even less likely to be able to do it than Ma Lin and Wang Liqin.

So I understand that it is better to make it so they do not drop Table Tennis from the Olympics altogether. But it is sad that the legends won't get a chance at cementing immortality, no matter how unlikely those scenarios are of coming to be. I remember a tennis tournament where Jimmy Connors was in his last year. He had announced that he was going to retire. It was his last US Open. He had not been playing well for several years. And he had this amazing run that got him to either the finals or the semi-finals of the tournament. And even though he did not win, he was the big story of the tournament because of how he upped his game and almost got the last title.

No such story will be possible for two guys who, with one more title might be in the conversation for best ever, but are not really without that last title.

Thats all. I agree with you that it is a sacrifice that table tennis may have needed to make to keep its Olympic status. But it is sad.

WiWa
04-26-2012, 10:06 AM
Sad indeed. It gets even more sad, because I believe Korea's representatives are Oh Sang Eun and Joo Se Hyuk. There will be no player in London who has won the Olympic Singles before. No room for old heroes to stand up I guess. But I'm sure we will get to see spectacular table tennis :)

UpSideDownCarl
04-26-2012, 10:13 AM
Sad indeed. It gets even more sad, because I believe Korea's representatives are Oh Sang Eun and Joo Se Hyuk. There will be no player in London who has won the Olympic Singles before. No room for old heroes to stand up I guess. But I'm sure we will get to see spectacular table tennis :)

Oh yeah, Ryu qualified for team only. Darn.

Yeah, the tournament will be fun no matter what. But I don't think it can be put in the same tournament classification as the World Championships any more.

TTFrenzy
04-26-2012, 10:24 PM
Hey guys, finally registered so I could reply to this thread...

Check this out: EDIT apparently I can't post links until I have 5 posts. I wanted to link an article on tabletennista(dot)com entitled "No pressure for Ma Long & Guo Yue" from which I took the ML quote below.

Ma Long: "Although I already knew that I won't be able to play in the Singles, I still have the honor to play for the Team. I just hope I would be able to fight a good battle then give glory to China in the Olympcis (sic)."
Initial qualifications for Olympics are based on the world ranking immediately after WTTC 2011, which meant that the first two spots for China went to WH and ZJK. Based on what I've read, LGL cannot sub Ma Long for either of those two in the singles without removing WH or ZJK from the tournament completely. So based on that, as well as Ma Long's quote, I think the chances of ML playing singles are very small.

It's pretty ridiculous that the path is clear for ZJK to win the "Grand Slam" over the 2011-2012 seasons when Ma Long has absolutely dominated him over that same period and has undeniably been the dominant World #1 as well. Unfortunately, ML's poor form at last year's WTTC seems to have created some lasting problems for him.



ma long has not "absolutely dominated" ZJK ... winning pro tours that only worth for money is something that many pros have achieved , ZJK has showed that in crucial moments he is the man to do it ! He and wang hao also , the world is waiting for malong to win a major event from 2009 and he didnt even manage to win the world cup when he had the chance (samsonov was no match for him) .

besides its obvious in his mentality during matches that its more easy for ma long to beat ZJK or any other chinese player because he knows exactly how they are playing . With other non chinese difficult players he struggles , and thats because he has poor mentality comparing to ZJK or wang hao . Check WTTTC 2012 final liu put ZJK 1st to play timo boll , he knew that if he put ma long against boll the game was risky , but ZJK managed to win even with a close score


And one last thing , i see ppl say about ma long being #1 and stuff like that , that is absolutely irrelevant , world ranking doesnt show the true value of a player but a general image of him , olympics are not 10 tournaments like pro tours , its 1 tournament the pressure is big and malong has proved that he got his chances and he didnt manage to win any major event for the past 2 years ...and after his injury @ 2009 he came back in top form !


In my humble opinion #1 is zjk #2 wang hao and #3 ma long because of his poor mentality , if he fixes this problem and just relax and deliberate his mind then we shall see monstrous TT from him

Bollforte94
04-27-2012, 06:48 AM
@TTFrenzy
Ma Long has absolutly dominated Zhang Jike. He won always every match they two meet. ZJk needs the Pro Tour Grand Finals to get his grand slam but wait .... Ma Long won 2011 against him at this tournament.

And if you watch the latest results you wouldn't say Ma Long is only #3 ... mentality is an important point but you can't fix the world ranking just by saying Player "X" has a good or poor mentality.

So Wang Hao has a poor mentality,too? Athen 2004 ... Beijing 2008? Lucky draw in 2009 WTTC? He always beat Wang Liqin and he knows him from the training sessions, so mentality does not count ....(In my opinion WH does not have a weak mentality)

In my eyes you are a little bit deluded ....

WiWa
04-27-2012, 07:47 AM
@TTFrenzy
Ma Long has absolutly dominated Zhang Jike. He won always every match they two meet. ZJk needs the Pro Tour Grand Finals to get his grand slam but wait .... Ma Long won 2011 against him at this tournament.

And if you watch the latest results you wouldn't say Ma Long is only #3 ... mentality is an important point but you can't fix the world ranking just by saying Player "X" has a good or poor mentality.

So Wang Hao has a poor mentality,too? Athen 2004 ... Beijing 2008? Lucky draw in 2009 WTTC? He always beat Wang Liqin and he knows him from the training sessions, so mentality does not count ....(In my opinion WH does not have a weak mentality)

In my eyes you are a little bit deluded ....

Pro Tour Grand Finals is not part of the grand slam ;) Zhang just needs Olympics to complete it. It is true that Ma often wins, but often it looks like Zhang doesn't even feel like putting up a fight. If you watcht that match from the Grand Finals you will see a very different Zhang than during for example Austrian Open or Slovenian Open. Zhang has a motivation problem, but when he goes all out he and Ma are practically equal. Ma is only no. 1 because he has more disciplin and therefore is more consistent. That is also the reason he is better than Zhang overall, but if they meet in a big tournament it will be a close match when Zhang feels like it :p

Bollforte94
04-27-2012, 08:03 AM
For me it is part of a grand slam( WTTC, World Cup, Olympia, Pro Tour Grand Finals) or is there a official definition of Grand Slam?
Yeah you are right at this Zhang-Ma match up's.

sxTT
04-27-2012, 10:13 AM
ma long has not "absolutely dominated" ZJK ... winning pro tours that only worth for money is something that many pros have achieved , ZJK has showed that in crucial moments he is the man to do it ! He and wang hao also , the world is waiting for malong to win a major event from 2009 and he didnt even manage to win the world cup when he had the chance (samsonov was no match for him) .

besides its obvious in his mentality during matches that its more easy for ma long to beat ZJK or any other chinese player because he knows exactly how they are playing . With other non chinese difficult players he struggles , and thats because he has poor mentality comparing to ZJK or wang hao . Check WTTTC 2012 final liu put ZJK 1st to play timo boll , he knew that if he put ma long against boll the game was risky , but ZJK managed to win even with a close score


And one last thing , i see ppl say about ma long being #1 and stuff like that , that is absolutely irrelevant , world ranking doesnt show the true value of a player but a general image of him , olympics are not 10 tournaments like pro tours , its 1 tournament the pressure is big and malong has proved that he got his chances and he didnt manage to win any major event for the past 2 years ...and after his injury @ 2009 he came back in top form !


In my humble opinion #1 is zjk #2 wang hao and #3 ma long because of his poor mentality , if he fixes this problem and just relax and deliberate his mind then we shall see monstrous TT from him


Well i guess everybody has their own opinion, no disrespect to yours but i think ma long does not have a poor mentality, and he has dominated zjk in majority of their matches
after the china harmony he leveled up his game and mental toughness, he missed his chance to be in the olympics singles and i agree that ZJK and WH are deserving of the slot since they are in good form during the selection, olympics indeed puts more pressure to each players but it does not mean that ma long cant deliver a gold at his current form

WiWa
04-27-2012, 11:10 AM
For me it is part of a grand slam( WTTC, World Cup, Olympia, Pro Tour Grand Finals) or is there a official definition of Grand Slam?
Yeah you are right at this Zhang-Ma match up's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_tennis Look it up under notable players ;) But if I were to define it, I guess I would include the Grand Finals as well. In fact it's probably the hardest tournament to win after the WTTC.

WiWa
04-27-2012, 11:13 AM
Here's a legendary quote :p

Reporter: 'When will the official Chinese Men Team Olympic list be released?'

Liu Guoliang: 'Probably before or after May 13.'

From Tabletennista.com

Thanks Liu Guoliang! ;) Now we know more hehe.

TTFrenzy
04-27-2012, 11:39 AM
@TTFrenzy
Ma Long has absolutly dominated Zhang Jike. He won always every match they two meet. ZJk needs the Pro Tour Grand Finals to get his grand slam but wait .... Ma Long won 2011 against him at this tournament.

And if you watch the latest results you wouldn't say Ma Long is only #3 ... mentality is an important point but you can't fix the world ranking just by saying Player "X" has a good or poor mentality.

So Wang Hao has a poor mentality,too? Athen 2004 ... Beijing 2008? Lucky draw in 2009 WTTC? He always beat Wang Liqin and he knows him from the training sessions, so mentality does not count ....(In my opinion WH does not have a weak mentality)

In my eyes you are a little bit deluded ....


dude u compare 2 different situations . wang hao had never had weak mentality. he just lost to players who played better than him both @ 2004 and 2008 (wang hao also won world cups , ma long couldnt..) ! .

ma long has lost from samsonov niwa koki timo boll which are players that do not match him . so his mentality is poor , even himself admits it ! check this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdMcaFH32is

besides that in 2012 he didnt join qatar open because he wanted to improve his mental state and psychology :) Im not deluded these are his words , not mine

TTFrenzy
04-27-2012, 11:52 AM
Well i guess everybody has their own opinion, no disrespect to yours but i think ma long does not have a poor mentality, and he has dominated zjk in majority of their matches
after the china harmony he leveled up his game and mental toughness, he missed his chance to be in the olympics singles and i agree that ZJK and WH are deserving of the slot since they are in good form during the selection, olympics indeed puts more pressure to each players but it does not mean that ma long cant deliver a gold at his current form

off course he can ! im not saying that he cannot do it im just saying that if i was liu guoliang and saw his past results , my faith to ma long wouldnt be so strong , in decisive moments he couldnt handle the pressure thats all . if he works on that then he will be trully no1. but right now for my perception of a "great player" he isnt a really great player . He is just a tremendous talent that needs to work on mentality to be the best ever . Great players handle pressure and play like they dont care about the result , thats a great player...balance and peace of mind :)

question : when was the last time u saw ma long make a great come back against a strong opponent ? zjk won 4-2 after losing 2-0 in the world cup against wang hao . wang hao WLQ ma lin and ZJK even xu xin have made great comebacks , but not ma long ! another important thing for the olympic singles is that wang hao hast lost only once to a non chinese player since 2010 (loss to RSM and then loss to ovtcharov @ team world cup)

Bollforte94
04-27-2012, 01:43 PM
Thanks TTFrenzy for linkin my own video .... I know what he said but this reportage is "old". He changed a lot

UpSideDownCarl
04-27-2012, 02:07 PM
off course he can ! im not saying that he cannot do it im just saying that if i was liu guoliang and saw his past results , my faith to ma long wouldnt be so strong , in decisive moments he couldnt handle the pressure thats all . if he works on that then he will be trully no1. but right now for my perception of a "great player" he isnt a really great player . He is just a tremendous talent that needs to work on mentality to be the best ever . Great players handle pressure and play like they dont care about the result , thats a great player...balance and peace of mind :)

question : when was the last time u saw ma long make a great come back against a strong opponent ? zjk won 4-2 after losing 2-0 in the world cup against wang hao . wang hao WLQ ma lin and ZJK even xu xin have made great comebacks , but not ma long ! another important thing for the olympic singles is that wang hao hast lost only once to a non chinese player since 2010 (loss to RSM and then loss to ovtcharov @ team world cup)

Sorry, but the discussion sounds a little stupid. I watched Zhang Jike play Joo Se Hyuk who he normally destroys and I watched Zhang Jike get beaten 4-0. Was that something other than mentality that Zhang Jike forgot to show up to the match? In that same tournament, Ma Long beat Joo in the finals and won the tournament. I also watched a tournament where Zhang Jike and Ma Long played in the finals and Ma Long won 4-0 and Zhang Jike's mental stability was so elsewhere that he forgot to shake hands after he got thrashed. Is that somehow not his mental strength.

Come on. Everyone has their good days and bad days.

By the way, in their last 6 meetings, Ma Long is 5-1 against Zhang Jike. Some people might say that is absolute domination.

It is unfortunate that, in the Olympics we will not see the two best players in the world going against each other.

It is also unfortunate that Ma Long was not at the World Cup but it is hard to complain that he did not win it in 2011 when he was playing great, because he was not there. 2009 was a long time ago.

Personally, I love Zhang Jike. I love watching his game. I don't love Ma Long but I like him. However, I still have to give him the credit he deserves. And if anyone deserves to go to the Olympics based on the past 9 months of table tennis play, it is definitely Ma Long.

But again, the thing that is a shame about the format for the Olympic games for Table Tennis is that, many of the greats will be excluded. There will not be one player there who has ever won an Olympic gold in Singles before who has qualified for the singles event. There are legends who are not being invited to play, who are still in the top 20 in the world.

You can argue about who has a better mental attitude between Ma Long, Zhang Jike and Wang Hao all you want. I have seen all of them play great and I have seen all of them fall apart. Remember at the end of 2010 when Wang Hao all of a sudden gained a ton of weight, got fat, could not move and could not beat anyone? Or was dropping off training and getting fat something other than mental strength? I remember seeing Waldner not play well in some big tournaments and fall apart. It happens to everybody.

And I have to be honest with you. I would much rather see Ma Long and Zhang Jike play in the finals of a tournament like the Olympics and see who comes out on top, than have one of them win without having had him go through the other. It would mean much more if Zhang Jike wins the gold medal against Ma Long, and for you Ma Long fans you can just flip the names around because it would mean much more for Ma Long if he won a big tournament like that and had to go through both Wang Hao and Zhang Jike. :)

TTFrenzy
04-27-2012, 04:09 PM
Thanks TTFrenzy for linkin my own video .... I know what he said but this reportage is "old". He changed a lot


well do you are inside his head and know that? search the article in tabletennista , ma long himself sais that he needs to work on his psychology thats why both he and ZJK wont attend qatar open 2012 . the fact that it was your video is absolutely irrelevant with our conversation.

@ carl : zjk lost to joo se hyuk in hungarian open because he was ill dude ! make some research please before posting an opinion and dont make conclusions if you dont know the full story :) . As for ma long VS zjk yes he did own him this year but this is not a key factor to choose someone to represent your country in the olympics . MA long has no character and thats a fact , im not hating him or anything im just expressing what i see . If he had character he would rise in difficult situations (all the other players i mentioned did it !).

As for the fact that many great players wont compete , well thats not an ITTF issue but Olympics issue . Olympics are made for the international companies to earn money and TT as it is right now isnt so popular . People doesnt want to see a one sided sport and thats bad for companies that are sponsors when TV broadcasting isnt so popular...its all about commercials !

Ending i totally agree with you for the ma long vs zhang jike final , in terms of performance they are the worlds best right now and it would be a great final no matter who would win it

paras.oriental
04-27-2012, 07:11 PM
[QUOTE=TTFrenzy;34666]dude u compare 2 different situations . wang hao had never had weak mentality. he just lost to players who played better than him both @ 2004 and 2008 (wang hao also won world cups , ma long couldnt..) ! .

Thnx TTFrnzy for this Lovely Video.......... :)

Bollforte94
04-27-2012, 07:17 PM
Zhang Jike wasnt ill ... check the interview with Joo Se Hyuk after the match!

TTFrenzy
04-27-2012, 07:32 PM
Zhang Jike wasnt ill ... check the interview with Joo Se Hyuk after the match!

u obviously dont like the fact that i believe what i believe for ma long . i saw your channel and its even more obvious that you love ma long very much . thats not bad , but you must learn to accept a different opinion about a player , ma long isnt a great player because he hasnt won anything big yet . is that so hard to understand? im trying to make dialogue here and the only thing you do is just disagreeing ...not with me but WITH FACTS . so calling me a lier when i have read those articles in table tennista isnt a valid talking point .

I answered to all of your points about ma long , you only reply to certain things that ive written and not the whole facts .

p.s. gimme the link of the video that zhang says " im not ill " it was specifically written that zhang jike in hungiarian open wasnt in good form because of injury that caused illness. You can actually watch the game and see for yourself that he isnt even trying to beat JOO . In slovenian open he came back and defeat all of them...how do you explain that? No more conversation for me these arguments about who's better or not is ridiculous and for children :) goodbye and have fun

WiWa
04-27-2012, 07:52 PM
Easy guys :p I remember as well reading on Tabletennista.com that Zhang was ill, partly because he had done a lot of advertisement campaigns (outside in a t-shirt) and he hadn't really adjusted well to Hungary when they were there. He wasn't comfortable. However, Tabletennista seems pro-Zhang, so it might not be as bad as it seemed. :p And second, if you are a professional you should take care of yourself and make sure you show up in good shape. Zhang didn't do that in Hungary, and he set it right in Slovenia. Ma Long didn't do that in Moscow and in the Asian Qualification, and he paid for it. Everyone has bad days, but it is obvious that when in decent shape Ma and Zhang are together at the top and the difference between them is not much. But for Zhang it happens more often that he appears to be not prepared or not motivated. That is his main problem. Ma's problem is still his nerves as it seems.

UpSideDownCarl
04-27-2012, 08:01 PM
u obviously dont like the fact that i believe what i believe for ma long . i saw your channel and its even more obvious that you love ma long very much . thats not bad , but you must learn to accept a different opinion about a player , ma long isnt a great player because he hasnt won anything big yet . is that so hard to understand? im trying to make dialogue here and the only thing you do is just disagreeing ...not with me but WITH FACTS . so calling me a lier when i have read those articles in table tennista isnt a valid talking point .

I answered to all of your points about ma long , you only reply to certain things that ive written and not the whole facts .

p.s. gimme the link of the video that zhang says " im not ill " it was specifically written that zhang jike in hungiarian open wasnt in good form because of injury that caused illness. You can actually watch the game and see for yourself that he isnt even trying to beat JOO . In slovenian open he came back and defeat all of them...how do you explain that? No more conversation for me these arguments about who's better or not is ridiculous and for children :) goodbye and have fun

I have to be honest. It sounds like someone is cranky. Perhaps more sleep. :) You have a right to your opinions. I loved watching Ma Long lose to Koki Niwa. I think all players are human and have their ups and downs. But you do sound quite argumentative and I did not see anyone else on this thread seeming angry and cranky before your comments.

I also don't know that illness is a great excuse. I believe it was before the 1997 Olympics when Waldner had the flu and a fever but it might have been 1989 I cannot remember. They did not know if he was going to be well enough to play. Which ever year it was, he was sick and he won the singles and Sweden won the team. There are lots of sports stories of sick or injured athletes coming out and having the performance of their careers. But it is hard to say one guy folds under pressure and then excusing the other guy of the same thing.

Which tournament was it that Zhang Jike, one of my favorite players, forgot to shake Ma Long's hand after losing 4-0. When people argued that was rude I wrote that I felt he just was not fully there at the end and did not realize that he did not shake hands with anyone, Ma Long or the officials. But, his head was elsewhere. That is definitely a mental issue. The first three games were close. He could have won all three. Two of them he should have won. He lost all three. In the 4th game it was close at the beginning and he put Ma Long on defense and Ma Long took the point from him when Jike had Long backed up and on the ropes. When he lost that point, Jike fell apart and was not there for the rest of the match. Jike also, often does not show up till he is down, or as it has been said, he is a slow starter. That is definitely a mental thing as well. I love Jike. I love his backhand. I love his serves. I love how he has come through against the odds when he has had a lot go against him like getting kicked off the Chinese National Team. But both he and Ma Long have mental issues. Jike is definitely capable of coming through in the big situations but he is also capable of not showing up at all. Ma Long gets scared and plays like a chump, or you could call it choking when he feels the pressure.

But they both deserve to be there. They are both better than anyone else.

Bollforte94
04-27-2012, 08:36 PM
@Carl Asian Championships 2012

TTFrenzy you don't change your opinion as well but you pillory me that I don't change my opinion? Ridiculous....
Yes Ma Long was mentaly weak
but since 2011 he is mentally strong ....
Zhang Jike is mentally strong, too but he has this asshole characteristics ....

Yeah I am a big Ma Long fan (well spotted ;D) I felt in love with his game and attitude on and off! the table since I saw the WTTC 2009 match between him and Wang Hao. Unfortunately he lost but he won my heart:D
I started real training since I saw this match. Before this I just played lame ping pong. Ma Long is ma man!

I am not interested in your so-called facts. Every chinese table tennis is a great athlete and we should stop arguing about who is the best. This fuels the hate. It is like this Cristiano - Messi thing, everyone has his opinion about who is the best but Cristiano and Messi are just saying that they love to see the other one play .... they are not that interested in this "who-is-the-best-thing" like the Cristiano-fans and Messi-fans....
We should learn from it

TTFrenzy
04-27-2012, 08:56 PM
no one is cranky or angry , my post was misunderstood . i just have reasonable questions and the only thing i received is irony because he doesnt have solid epicheirema for his points of view thats all . u can see that from his 1st to his last post he calls me "deluded" "ridiculous" and i still try to communicate with him despite his lack of behaviour or solid talking points . anyway there is a very good explanatory image about people arguing on the internet , just google it :) besides isnt it a fact that everyone here can play mr know it all ? its the easy thing to do , the hard thing is to prove it . im still waiting for the interview after hungarian open :)

p.s. carl i agree with you mate but all those stuff that you wrote are not relevant with my perception :S , thanx though for your honest post

p.s.2 bollforte : for me it isnt about who is the best because there isnt one (i believe that players have ups and downs no one can call himself a better player than another , only if he has a 85 %win - 15 % loss record u can start "bragging"...) , i just expressed my opinion that ma long has mental weaknesses compared to the other two . who talked about one being better than the other? i just believe that wang hao and zhang jike are stronger characters , but if ma long solves his problems then undoubtedly will crush them all

sxTT
04-27-2012, 10:39 PM
off course he can ! im not saying that he cannot do it im just saying that if i was liu guoliang and saw his past results , my faith to ma long wouldnt be so strong , in decisive moments he couldnt handle the pressure thats all . if he works on that then he will be trully no1. but right now for my perception of a "great player" he isnt a really great player . He is just a tremendous talent that needs to work on mentality to be the best ever . Great players handle pressure and play like they dont care about the result , thats a great player...balance and peace of mind :)

question : when was the last time u saw ma long make a great come back against a strong opponent ? zjk won 4-2 after losing 2-0 in the world cup against wang hao . wang hao WLQ ma lin and ZJK even xu xin have made great comebacks , but not ma long ! another important thing for the olympic singles is that wang hao hast lost only once to a non chinese player since 2010 (loss to RSM and then loss to ovtcharov @ team world cup)

austrian open semis he was down 2-0 against XX, but that is if you consider XX a strong opponent

Tadex
04-27-2012, 11:24 PM
Poor old Wang Hao, getting no attention. This discussion has come down to Ma Long vs Zhang Jike. This will continue up to the next Olympics where I expect XX to be in that mix too but this was meant to be about this Olympics and you're all forgetting probably the first person who should be selected: WANG HAO. He's been there and done all of it bar winning. I think even if it were Ma Long (who I think is a better player than ZJK when taken out of any context) playing Wang Hao in the final, Wang Hao will DESTROY him.

A lot of things seem to be in his favour. He will be the only player in this Olympics who has been as far as the Semi-Finals, this experience should serve him well. In the last two years, the only non-Chinese players he's lost to are RSM and Ovtcharov; both of whom he has since shown he can overcome with ease. He has possibly the greatest motivation out of anybody having lost two consecutive finals he'll be absolutely desperate to right this wrong. He has been gradually playing his way back to form and I think we'll see a strong performance at the Korean Open which should confirm that he is intending to peak at the Olympics.

YosuaYosan
04-28-2012, 01:00 AM
A bit out of the discussion probably..
Schlager won the 2003 WTTC while he is sustaining injury on both of his feet, the toes if I am not mistaken..

I don't know if that would add up something :p

TTFrenzy
04-28-2012, 01:07 PM
Poor old Wang Hao, getting no attention. This discussion has come down to Ma Long vs Zhang Jike. This will continue up to the next Olympics where I expect XX to be in that mix too but this was meant to be about this Olympics and you're all forgetting probably the first person who should be selected: WANG HAO. He's been there and done all of it bar winning. I think even if it were Ma Long (who I think is a better player than ZJK when taken out of any context) playing Wang Hao in the final, Wang Hao will DESTROY him.

A lot of things seem to be in his favour. He will be the only player in this Olympics who has been as far as the Semi-Finals, this experience should serve him well. In the last two years, the only non-Chinese players he's lost to are RSM and Ovtcharov; both of whom he has since shown he can overcome with ease. He has possibly the greatest motivation out of anybody having lost two consecutive finals he'll be absolutely desperate to right this wrong. He has been gradually playing his way back to form and I think we'll see a strong performance at the Korean Open which should confirm that he is intending to peak at the Olympics.

its because some people see the tree and not the whole forest talking about "who's best or not" . Wang hao can clearly crush both of them its just a matter of who wants it more and who will be in the best mental state and form , not about "who is the best"

personally im not arguing about who's better ma long or zhang jike , besides chinese players have never had a dominant player among them . In the past two years if you check the results zjk dominates hao , hao dominates ma long , malong dominates zjk (funny thing is that XX can lose or win to all three !! ) . And thats something that happened with the old triad , wlq dominated ma lin , ma lin dominated wang hao , wang hao dominated wlq... and funny thing again was that chen qi in chinese super league almost all the time dominated ma lin ! So talking about who is best is just a stupid topic , because these issues on TT are so much relevant to each other .