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View Full Version : How to break the habit of a too long backswing?



loerting
04-23-2022, 02:49 PM
I think my forehand stroke is too long and that I rotate my upper body too much on the backswing (my blade can be seen on the opposite side). I also open the angle between upper arm and forearm too much (backswing). Especially on counter topspin I can see the problem

Check out this match of me playing (I'm blue guy): 1:38,
https://www.youtube.com/embed/vwBm8dW-hj0?autohide=1&controls=1&showinfo=0
What are your thoughts on this, do you notice any other technical problems? Are there any tricks that can help me get the correct execution in my subconsciousness, or do I just have to train it very often?

Moved to Video Safe Thread: https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/showthread.php?26467-Video-Footage-Safe-Thread/page14&p=367515#post367515

Zwill
04-23-2022, 03:04 PM
Watch this video. You might not understand much but you can check the technique. Technique has no language barrier thankfully. He also shows some bad examples, like yours.
https://www.youtube.com/embed/2CFK5v_0yro?autohide=1&controls=1&showinfo=0

IB66
04-23-2022, 03:08 PM
Hi,

it would be better to post this on the ‘safe video’ thread. It’s kinda reserved for asking advice and getting some opinions from some TTD members that are better positioned to do so.This way you’ll get consistent advice.
Otherwise anyone can chip in regardless of their ability and experience.

loerting
04-23-2022, 03:17 PM
Hi,

it would be better to post this on the ‘safe video’ thread. It’s kinda reserved for asking advice and getting some opinions from some TTD members that are better positioned to do so.This way you’ll get consistent advice.
Otherwise anyone can chip in regardless of their ability and experience.
Good idea. Thanks

Kuba Hajto
04-23-2022, 07:37 PM
The other thread is locked to select few experts so I will give you my feedback here, maybe it will be useful, maybe not.

I saw 2 things that seem to cause your fh shots to miss:

You are stretching your arm of the the table i.e. you are too far back
You are missing the timing.

I think this might be cause by the fact you are almost parallel to the table. You can standing closer to the table with your left foot and maybe a tiny bit further with your right.This will cause you body to naturally rotate your body towards fh side of the table and will give you bigger space to properly hit your ball.

That being said this will probably give you easier FH but will require position shift for BH shot.

yoass
04-25-2022, 11:16 AM
My humble €.02 is: I think I see a pattern of you moving backwards at impact time at precisely those moments where things go wrong, and I think there's a relation beyond correlation there.I tell my pupils to always visualize going through the ball, and upon occasion that has helped them maintain their forward momentum.

Takkyu_wa_inochi
04-25-2022, 02:07 PM
For info, the video posted by Zwill features Kazuhiro CHAN, a Japanese player from Chinese origin. He once lost in the national champs final to Mizutani, and had a small apparition in the National Team.

@loerting
1) i think you should focus on the timing by forcing you to focus on the bounce on your half table.
don't swing before the ball bounces.

this has a few merits:
- by waiting for that precise moment, your timing will be more similar for all your shots.
- when you wait more, by necessity your swing will become faster, and to make it possible and efficient, the swing will shorten.
- you are taking a good habit of looking at the ball, you will see it better, and will become able to read its trajectory and spin better

2) focus on getting back in position for the next shot:
do a lot of footwork exercise at a good rhythm. if your swing is too big, you won't be able to recover for the next ball. By making these drills and focusing on a fast recovery, naturally you will adapt by shortening your strokes.

DukeGaGa
04-25-2022, 05:40 PM
I've posted this in a different thread, but it looks like the perfect thing to help you fix your backswing problem, which is basically saying your upper arm moves too far back. This training aid limits the movement of your upper arm, and helps you form new muscle memory.

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/server/php/files/38/470/22/04/25/thumbnail/1%20png.png (https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/server/php/files/38/470/22/04/25/1%20png.png)

Wrighty67
04-25-2022, 06:24 PM
I've posted this in a different thread, but it looks like the perfect thing to help you fix your backswing problem, which is basically saying your upper arm moves too far back. This training aid limits the movement of your upper arm, and helps you form new muscle memory.

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/server/php/files/38/470/22/04/25/thumbnail/1%20png.png (https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/server/php/files/38/470/22/04/25/1%20png.png)
Coincidentally this device just came up on the video footage thread as a really useful tool - I have spent the last few days trying to find something with no luck. Where can I get one of these Duke?

DukeGaGa
04-25-2022, 08:22 PM
Coincidentally this device just came up on the video footage thread as a really useful tool - I have spent the last few days trying to find something with no luck. Where can I get one of these Duke?
I bought one for myself and one for my girlfriend on taobao.com, here's the link to the product (it'll probably ask you to register) https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=606717725155

I then used https://superbuy.com to ship it to the states. You could just use this website to buy it directly too, just paste the link above in the search bar and it'll give you the options and translate it into English. Also if you need a lefty version you'll need to mention that to the seller.

I bought this since I'm teaching my girlfriend how to play, and thought might get one for myself to check my own form, and I also want to see if it works before I let others try. I can confirm it helps a lot to solidify a proper form, after only a week my gf can now do an awesome looking forehand drive and loop, but it could also be my awesome teaching skills lol

Gozo
04-26-2022, 02:54 AM
I think my forehand stroke is too long and that I rotate my upper body too much on the backswing (my blade can be seen on the opposite side). I also open the angle between upper arm and forearm too much (backswing). Especially on counter topspin I can see the problem

Check out this match of me playing (I'm blue guy): 1:38,
https://www.youtube.com/embed/vwBm8dW-hj0?autohide=1&controls=1&showinfo=0
What are your thoughts on this, do you notice any other technical problems? Are there any tricks that can help me get the correct execution in my subconsciousness, or do I just have to train it very often?

Moved to Video Safe Thread: https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/showthread.php?26467-Video-Footage-Safe-Thread/page14&p=367515#post367515
You did play quite well actually.

I am not sure why do you keep giving him long serve? Your opponent is a looper and he is enjoying looping your serve and return so much.

On your request as to how to shorten your strokes. What I did was, I bought a resistance band and tied it on my playing arm and restrict elbow close to my body. This way, I am forced to swing my waist only to generate the torque necessary to drive the ball. I cannot swing my hand anymore. Due to this restriction, I am also forced to move my legs to hit the ball and cannot be lazy to extend or swing my arm wildly to force a return. Over time, this builds muscle memory and I shorten my strokes, use my waist torgue to generate the hitting power and move my legs more.

Hope this help.

Wrighty67
04-26-2022, 07:55 AM
I bought one for myself and one for my girlfriend on taobao.com, here's the link to the product (it'll probably ask you to register) https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=606717725155

I then used https://superbuy.com to ship it to the states. You could just use this website to buy it directly too, just paste the link above in the search bar and it'll give you the options and translate it into English. Also if you need a lefty version you'll need to mention that to the seller.

I bought this since I'm teaching my girlfriend how to play, and thought might get one for myself to check my own form, and I also want to see if it works before I let others try. I can confirm it helps a lot to solidify a proper form, after only a week my gf can now do an awesome looking forehand drive and loop, but it could also be my awesome teaching skills lol
Brilliant - thanks. I think I’ve managed to get one ordered on superbuy - I’ve certainly paid!

cheers.

Der_Echte
04-26-2022, 06:11 PM
Another way is to use your step to the FH to open the hips and thus eliminate the need for a huge torquing windup. How does this work? You are in middle of table or BH corner and now you have a ball going to the FH corner or past it... you step to the ball with your hitting foot (Right foot for RH players) and step/plant with the foot pointing to side of the table... with your arm, you are only extending it to the side some and a little down depending on the ball... now when you plant, you are well positioned with open hips that will add leverage and power/spin to your FH.

All that happens with a simple step and sticking out your arm a little in place of all that windup. The result is much more direct path to impact and much stronger/consistent impact.

Actually, for that ball to the FH or wide FH, you are fighting against your body if you try to rotate waist/shoulders and you would have less power and many more errors.

Kuba Hajto
04-26-2022, 09:22 PM
Another way is to use your step to the FH to open the hips and thus eliminate the need for a huge torquing windup. How does this work? You are in middle of table or BH corner and now you have a ball going to the FH corner or past it... you step to the ball with your hitting foot (Right foot for RH players) and step/plant with the foot pointing to side of the table... with your arm, you are only extending it to the side some and a little down depending on the ball... now when you plant, you are well positioned with open hips that will add leverage and power/spin to your FH.

All that happens with a simple step and sticking out your arm a little in place of all that windup. The result is much more direct path to impact and much stronger/consistent impact.

Actually, for that ball to the FH or wide FH, you are fighting against your body if you try to rotate waist/shoulders and you would have less power and many more errors.
Is this in line with what I wrote couple of posts above? I have hard times visualizing what you are saying.

Der_Echte
04-27-2022, 02:26 AM
Try it out yourself. Take one step to your right (if RH) right along the same line as end line. Just stick out bat to your side a foot or tow as you step. Once you plant your foot (foot facing almost sideways 30 degrees forward or so) stop and take a look at your hips. They are big time open and it is SO DAMN EASY to start a stroke from this position and hit for power.

NextLevel
05-01-2022, 07:23 PM
One of the things that Ma Long does to force his rotation is to punch towards where he wants to hit the ball with his left hand so he gets the rotation he needs to support a long atm backswing. Maybe you can try this

Der_Echte
05-03-2022, 08:45 AM
Very frequently, you will hear Kim Jung Hoon explain this concept in his vids when discussing how to generate power with the body. Even on BH shots he advocates using the free hand to leverage power during the stroke. He advocates pulling in the free hand as a way to get more shoulder turn and change the course of the shot from down the line to BH corner and get an extra 10% power.

latej
05-03-2022, 10:03 AM
I think my forehand stroke is too long and that I rotate my upper body too much on the backswing (my blade can be seen on the opposite side). I also open the angle between upper arm and forearm too much (backswing). Especially on counter topspin I can see the problem

I don't think your FH backswing is too long. Others mentioned the points which are worth improving already. Your post is about FH, so here are my 2 cents about FH, which I try and I think you could try.

When continuously looping, *immediately* when the forward movement is finished, and the backward movement starts, I try to move the elbow down and then back close to the body (and then rotate and the arm further back - all that as a 1 backswing movement). This "elbow down and to body" saves some precious miliseconds. Also the backward rotation is easier, faster and feels better.

Finally, when you loop against backswing, e.g. long push comes to BH, you need to make space (step left) go down and rotate to the right - if during this phase I do this with elbow close to the body, it seems it somehow magically influences the forward motion too. The forward motion then feels more "through" the ball, as opposed to the "around" the ball. This 2nd point is personal, but I have it that way. Btw. this is also what I associate with the words "accelerate through the ball", which occasionally causes some confusion in other threads :-)

I am a regional level player. Not national level, slightly above district level :-)

Tony's Table Tennis
05-03-2022, 03:52 PM
I think your footwork is a bit slow and not enough body weight transfers from right to left foot.
Your right foot can step closer towards the contact point (FH topspin)
I don't really see an issue with your backswing/movement, you seem tall.

You stepping back/away from the table because you are tall is also fine, but that just means you need to move better, otherwise you will always be a bit slow and not ready for the stoke and cause unforce errors.

playing a match is difficult to look good, there isn't too many fh shots for me to see too (I didn't watch the full video, just jumped through).
If you want to improve, then get a multiball feeder, and practice 2 or 3 point fh shots, and practice the movement.

I think your movement is just not smooth enough, and you think it could be your backswing. I just think it is your footwork.

Der_Echte
05-03-2022, 06:18 PM
Tttttooooooooooooooooonnnnnnnnnnyyyyyyyyyyyy !!!!!!!

Dr Evil
05-03-2022, 06:42 PM
Another vote for footwork, not backswing. But if you do want to shorten the backswing, try overcompensating by making it too short. You'll probably succeed in making it too short at first, but then it will be easier to lengthen it (rather than directly fighting muscle memory to shorten the original backswing) until you get what you want.

latej
05-03-2022, 09:03 PM
Another vote for footwork, not backswing.

I really didn't mean it that way. As a competition. But so be it: you win! Good luck.

Tony's Table Tennis
05-04-2022, 07:43 AM
Tttttooooooooooooooooonnnnnnnnnnyyyyyyyyyyyy !!!!!!!
Hiiiiiiii!!!!

parin_90
05-06-2022, 12:35 AM
You really have to aim at the top of the racket to achieve such an effect. You have to aim for the ceiling.

loerting
05-08-2022, 12:51 PM
Very frequently, you will hear Kim Jung Hoon explain this concept in his vids when discussing how to generate power with the body. Even on BH shots he advocates using the free hand to leverage power during the stroke. He advocates pulling in the free hand as a way to get more shoulder turn and change the course of the shot from down the line to BH corner and get an extra 10% power.
Hello Der Echte, where can I find his videos? Thanks.

Der_Echte
05-08-2022, 08:31 PM
Hello Der Echte, where can I find his videos? Thanks.
Hi Mr. Lörting,

I have jisted a LOT of Kim Jung Hoon vids over the years. He does his vids only in Korean, but I speak Korean , so I jisted a lot of his vids I thought were worthwhile... and there are many worthwhile. Kim Jung Hoon spots errors in amateurs so easy and articulates/demonstrates ways to cope.

Some of these threads I made go back 10 years or more, so you have to search TTD really well.

It might be easier and look on my profile for threads I started that have Kim Jung Hoon in the title.

I will link a few, but do the work and search.

Comment on this Kim Jung Hoon BH Loop Vid (tabletennisdaily.com) (https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/showthread.php?16386-Comment-on-this-Kim-Jung-Hoon-BH-Loop-Vid)

Kim Juhng Hoon teaches basic BH defense at table (tabletennisdaily.com) (https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/showthread.php?9017-Kim-Juhng-Hoon-teaches-basic-BH-defense-at-table)

Kim Jung Hoon - Thousand Nuggest of Tips (tabletennisdaily.com) (https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/showthread.php?9974-Kim-Jung-Hoon-Thousand-Nuggest-of-Tips)

Kim Jung Hoon teaches basic footwork for balls to FH (tabletennisdaily.com) (https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/showthread.php?9079-Kim-Jung-Hoon-teaches-basic-footwork-for-balls-to-FH)

Kim Jung hoon teaches the FH Flick (tabletennisdaily.com) (https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/showthread.php?9055-Kim-Jung-hoon-teaches-the-FH-Flick)

Kim Jung Hoon teaches FH fast loop vs underspin (tabletennisdaily.com) (https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/showthread.php?9011-Kim-Jung-Hoon-teaches-FH-fast-loop-vs-underspin)

Visit Korea for the TT ^_^ (With a lot of Pics) (tabletennisdaily.com) (https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/showthread.php?5021-Visit-Korea-for-the-TT-_-(With-a-lot-of-Pics))

Kim Jung Hoon FH Loop Pointers (tabletennisdaily.com) (https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/showthread.php?19757-Kim-Jung-Hoon-FH-Loop-Pointers)

Kim Jung Hoon BH Fast Loop vid... a few revelations (tabletennisdaily.com) (https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/showthread.php?19833-Kim-Jung-Hoon-BH-Fast-Loop-vid-a-few-revelations)