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View Full Version : Had a forehand loop revelation



Dominikk85
06-20-2022, 08:11 PM
I found something out for my forehand loop so it works much better now so I thought I would like to share with you.

As I'm neither a coach nor a really good player I could be totally wrong though so I'm asking for your opinion.

What I did was having the motion totally in the so called "sagittal plane" which is perpendicular to the body.

https://www.google.com/search?q=sagittal+plane+movements&client=ms-android-huawei-rev1&prmd=ivn&sxsrf=ALiCzsbOrOXitG9iOH-seCHef1V9X8GVOw:1655754601222&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiD6NzG5rz4AhUo7rsIHe6ID6MQ_AUoAXoECAIQAQ&biw=360&bih=647&dpr=3

The arm motion basically starts with the arm hanging straight down and then you do a simple shoulder flexion perpendicular to the chest like this young lady here
https://youtu.be/sOcYlBI85hc

And add a biceps flexion in the end.

I first just isolated that arm movement so that my hand would go staight up with no forward movement. I did that a few hundred times and then added a body turn for the forward movement not doing any forward pulling of the arm.

Here is a video of what I mean

https://youtu.be/d9X5PxbuFj4

After doing that my forehand loop got a lot more consistent.

Did I find something here or am I way off base and that is just a random result by a low level player?

KM1976
06-20-2022, 08:13 PM
Check this out -
https://youtu.be/OqFblvZMZ9c

latej
06-20-2022, 10:00 PM
People say you play with the whole body, not just with the arm, and thus over-focusing on the arm may be a bit mis-leading (even though arm is part of the body). I know it sounds cheap, bear with me. There was this pendulum mechanism video, I don't have it now. Basically the point is, you move/rotate the body and as a result of it, the arm is moved. Try it, rotate hips/body, arm shoots. It tends to shoot optimally, the way of the least resistance, the most efficient (and also fastest) way. Whatever you add to it (using your brain/decision), is a bit artificial. That is of course a bit of an extreme position. I am writing it, so you find the truth in the middle... I don't think it is wrong that you think about it now the way you think about it. But for me, the most important is, that in 0:52 in your video I see the weight transfer and that your body/hips rotates (*pre*-rotates) before your arm really shoots. That is for me more important than any thought about the arm/plane etc. Imho, this thing you have in you. Good. Cheers.

Kuba Hajto
06-20-2022, 10:09 PM
People say you play with the whole body, not just with the arm, and thus over-focusing on the arm may be a bit mis-leading (even though arm is part of the body). I know it sounds cheap, bear with me. There was this pendulum mechanism video, I don't have it now. Basically the point is, you move/rotate the body and as a result of it, the arm is moved. Try it, rotate hips/body, arm shoots. It tends to shoot optimally, the way of the least resistance, the most efficient (and also fastest) way. Whatever you add to it (using your brain/decision), is a bit artificial. That is of course a bit of an extreme position. I am writing it, so you find the truth in the middle... I don't think it is wrong that you think about it now the way you think about it. But for me, the most important is, that in 0:52 in your video I see the weight transfer and that your body/hips rotates (*pre*-rotates) before your arm really shoots. That is for me more important than any thought about the arm/plane etc. Imho, this thing you have in you. Good. Cheers.
https://youtu.be/qtduZ5mc1bw This vid by chance?

Lycanthrope
06-21-2022, 01:03 AM
I think the point you are talking about is a shorter and faster forearm swing, which may generate a heavier topspin that results in the consistence.

You are not the only one saying this. I have watched some other training videos talking about the same thing. This is an advanced skill when you have already known how to loop and you want to improve the quality of your loop.

Gozo
06-21-2022, 01:23 AM
https://youtu.be/qtduZ5mc1bw This vid by chance?
That is one relax movement. Silky smooth.

Gozo
06-21-2022, 01:31 AM
Here is a video of what I meanhttps://youtu.be/d9X5PxbuFj4After doing that my forehand loop got a lot more consistent.Did I find something here or am I way off base and that is just a random result by a low level player?
Hello Dominik,

What a coincidence as I just shared this wonderful & marvelous FH loop kill from Qiu Dang with my club-mates yesterday. Have a look. However, what I want to highlight is, you can never ever get such beautiful loop if you only rely on arm mechanics. Focus on Qiu's waist snap as he loop kill the ball. Qiu also use CPen just like you, hence you may use what is useful for you.
https://www.youtube.com/embed/nHi99xqvTsc?autohide=1&controls=1&showinfo=0

Dominikk85
06-21-2022, 01:49 AM
Thanks guys. I know i should not swing just the arm but i never quite understood the plane of the arm and always tried some kind of abduction (think jumping jack) or horizontal adduction (butterfly machine) and it didn't quite work but when I skipped that side to side motion and just did simple flexion of shoulder and biceps perpendicular to the chest combined with the body turn and weight shift it worked better.

Regarding wrist use I'm not sure yet. I'm sure good players can use the wrist on forehand but I want to master the arm, body and forearm movement first.

Doum
06-21-2022, 01:57 AM
Your left shoulder and whole body move down and to the left during your stroke. You compensate because your are not low enough with your legs. You will be faster and have more speed and power if your shoulders stay level and they rotate in the horizontal plane, your body will sligthly go up when you push with your left leg to execute the shot.

DukeGaGa
06-21-2022, 03:38 AM
This is the style I recommend https://youtu.be/Lk2wr5R5jQo

Dominikk85
06-21-2022, 09:11 AM
Your left shoulder and whole body move down and to the left during your stroke. You compensate because your are not low enough with your legs. You will be faster and have more speed and power if your shoulders stay level and they rotate in the horizontal plane, your body will sligthly go up when you push with your left leg to execute the shot.
Yeah, definitely need to use more legs.

Are you sure about the level shoulders though?

If you watch ma long he bends his legs but also slightly bends towards his right waist and before contact his right shoulder is lower and then comes back to level just around contact

https://ibb.co/rkMZPNJ

Richie
06-21-2022, 10:39 AM
It's possible you're on to something, at the end the arm structure looks decent. Even though I've focused a lot on the body stuff, I've also from my experience learnt that it's possible to have misunderstandings about the arm structure. But too much of a focus on that can also create that misunderstanding and that the solution is somewhere else.

Keep in mind to actually push with your dominant leg as you're backswinging rather than just turning your body. I made this mistake a while back and it's more inefficient and will make footwork much more difficult. Plus you'll develop your leg muscles and more control over the movement the more you do it.

I'd also say be mindful of dipping your shoulder the way you are. If you do that against block or topspin balls I think you'll be forced to lift the ball too much with that motion. In the picture with Ma Long which ball was he hitting there?

Tony's Table Tennis
06-21-2022, 10:45 AM
Are you left handed (not sure if your video is a reverse or not), will treat it as left. You fh stroke is looking good. Obviously from the video, i can't see much of your waist transfer. If you want to have power, then from your fh leg (left if you are left handed), you need to spring into the ground (push into the ground) and bounce out/accelerate to the other side. While you are doing that, your waist from a snapping position to release the force of the arm. This way, you are generate power from both legs, waist and arm, hence the whole body.

UpSideDownCarl
06-21-2022, 01:04 PM
Dominikk, a few things:

You would need to show video of you at the table actually hitting the ball. Then we could see what happens when you are actually tracking and intercepting a ball. This, you don't have to adjust to the ball. But it gives an idea of what you think you are telling us that you changed.

HOWEVER, you should know, in your video of shadow footage, as soon as you start adding that small amount of body rotation to your shadow stroke, the arm movement goes back to normal. In other words, you are not at all doing just a sagittal movement with your arm once you start turning your body even a little.

If the idea of just sagittal movement gave you a more compact and controlled arm movement, then perhaps it did it's work. But you are not doing just a sagittal movement by the end of your short video.

UpSideDownCarl
06-21-2022, 01:17 PM
https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/server/php/files/38/921/22/06/21/Screen%20Shot%202022%2006%2021%20at%209%2006%2027%20AM%20png.png
The rotation of the upper arm in the shoulder joint that has brought the forearm out is in the Horizontal plane (the plane of rotation) and the adduction that brought your upper arm further away from your torso is in the Frontal plane. So, just that arm position shows that this is not just a simple Sagittal movement.

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/server/php/files/38/068/22/06/21/Screen%20Shot%202022%2006%2021%20at%209%2007%2023%20AM%20png.png

Your elbow is still out to the side (not forward of your chest) means you are still operating in the frontal plane. And the fact that your forearm is angled forward and up where, in the backswing it was angled back and out means that the upper arm moved in the Horizontal plane a considerable amount.

I would also say, all of that is fine. You would not be able to hit a ball if your body was doing what your head thought you were doing. So, this may be an example of how, thinking the wrong thing got you to do something that was more functional than what you had been doing. But we could only tell if you should us footage from before and after.

Still, I would say, based on the shadow stroke clip, the biggest issue is that you need to be way more relaxed. You are tightening everything including the muscles in your face. It is understandable. But if you can be more relaxed, I have a feeling it will help you.

Now post footage of you looping vs block with an actual ball at an actual table.

karupinkun
06-21-2022, 02:59 PM
That is one relax movement. Silky smooth.
I liked his coaching videos a lot too. There is a lot to take away from

JediJesseS
06-22-2022, 01:59 AM
Different ways of thinking can produce individual results in the body for each player. It's great to try and think about things from a new angle and experiment! So this way of thinking about the stroke could have unlocked a new feeling for you.

But for most players this is the completely disconnected, backwards way to approach the stroke. Your arm should swing because of the momentum from the unwinding weight throw in the hips and core, not on its own using shoulder and arm muscles then combined with a separate lower body motion.

Lycanthrope
06-22-2022, 02:28 AM
If OP wants to explore more in the forearm movement in forehand stroke, I have found two short videos for this specific part. I mean the short and strong forearm swing. These videos are in Chinese, but you could see it from their demonstration of stroke. They are not on Youtube but the website is legitimate.

1, 谭瑞午教你如何用“顶蹭”的方式拉球 - Tan Ruiwu is talking about 'hit and brush' in loop.
Please see it from 2:15. Tan Ruiwu is showing two different types of loop, close to table and further back.
https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV19V411t7C7/

2, 尹航教练教你如何收小臂 - Yin Hang is talking about forearm swing.
When Yin Hang is doing a big forearm swing in the video, he is saying 'This is not what I am doing.'
https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1bY4y147qZ/

If you want to practice in this way, please do it in gentle first. It requires explosiveness of your forearm, overexercising may hurt your elbow.

This an advanced skill. Anyone who wants to start this should get a solid framework of forehand stroke first.

TaiHaoPingPong
06-22-2022, 09:16 AM
If OP wants to explore more in the forearm movement in forehand stroke, I have found two short videos for this specific part. I mean the short and strong forearm swing. These videos are in Chinese, but you could see it from their demonstration of stroke. They are not on Youtube but the website is legitimate.

1, 谭瑞午教你如何用“顶蹭”的方式拉球 - Tan Ruiwu is talking about 'hit and brush' in loop.
Please see it from 2:15. Tan Ruiwu is showing two different types of loop, close to table and further back.
https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV19V411t7C7/

2, 尹航教练教你如何收小臂 - Yin Hang is talking about forearm swing.
When Yin Hang is doing a big forearm swing in the video, he is saying 'This is not what I am doing.'
https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1bY4y147qZ/

If you want to practice in this way, please do it in gentle first. It requires explosiveness of your forearm, overexercising may hurt your elbow.

This an advanced skill. Anyone who wants to start this should get a solid framework of forehand stroke first.
I'd love to know what these guys are saying, but without understanding Chinese I found it very hard to get anything from the videos.
Were they both kind of saying not to actively flex the biceps?

Lycanthrope
06-23-2022, 01:31 AM
I'd love to know what these guys are saying, but without understanding Chinese I found it very hard to get anything from the videos.
Were they both kind of saying not to actively flex the biceps?
No, they didn't say any about biceps.

Yin Hang at 0:48 says 'It is a sudden acceleration and then an immediate stop. The excessive swing more than that is useless.' Other words basically mean the same.

Tan Ruiwu, from 2:15, says 'It is a swing and stop, reduce the range of the motion, don't stretch out your arm. The cons of excessive swing are 1, hard to estimate your distance to the ball; 2, hard to generate enough spin; 3, leaving too much time for your opponent to see your motion; 4, hard for recovery'. Then at 2:49, he is doing some relatively bigger swing, saying 'this is a normal loop, for example at a key pint and you want to focus on the consistence, doing this makes it safer.' Then at 2:58, he says 'this is another type of loop I have mentioned before, quick loop.' Then he is repeating normal loop and quick loop in turn. At 3:14, he says 'starting from a big backswing. when it is very close to the ball, a sudden hit and stop, that is enough.'

Please note they are not describing the whole process of loop, they are describing just the point of hitting. If you are thinking it must be muscle tension rather than flex, which I think the same, it doesn't necessary mean the muscle was not actively flex before this point.

brokenball
06-23-2022, 05:01 AM
basically, any extra motion after the ball has left the paddle doesn't affect the trajectory of the ball and the goal of any extra motion should be to get ready for the next stroke,

PatriciaBadillo
06-29-2022, 05:19 PM
Guys, I have to thank you for advice and videos, I've had the same question. Gratitude!

iammaru
06-30-2022, 09:25 AM
Different ways of thinking can produce individual results in the body for each player. It's great to try and think about things from a new angle and experiment! So this way of thinking about the stroke could have unlocked a new feeling for you.

But for most players this is the completely disconnected, backwards way to approach the stroke. Your arm should swing because of the momentum from the unwinding weight throw in the hips and core, not on its own using shoulder and arm muscles then combined with a separate lower body motion.
Very well said!! I saw so many people doing the same thing. They seem to do everything needed, the arm swing is there, lower body motion and weight transfer are there, but they are so disconnected. IMO when you focus too much on your arm motion, the stroke will be stiff and less efficient. When you learn the basic FH topspin, just let the arm follow the body swing, shoulder and arm muscle do very little work, don’t try too hard for power but try to feel the movement flow and focus on consistency. At higher level you need to use more muscle to create power but only after you master the basic stroke.