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xGG
05-05-2012, 09:27 AM
I'm getting a new set of blade and rubbers. I'm interested in the Butterfly Zhang Jike blade. Any suggestions or comments on this blade? and what rubbers would go well with it?
I'm intermediate level, if this thing is too "PRO" for me, what blade/rubbers should i get? Since i'm still developing my skills & techniques, I don't think I have too much limitations with the equipment.
Thanks!

UpSideDownCarl
05-05-2012, 12:09 PM
I believe the Zhang Jike blade is pretty much the same blade as the Viscaria and if you watch Zhang Jike, he is still using a Viscaria. Getting a Viscaria might save you a decent amount of money though. If you are good with fast blades they are fine. They are good blades. My way of looking at things though, is that, until you are more than just proficient with all your strokes and your footwork, you don't really need a blade that is rated Off or Off+. Most players are better off with blades rated Off- or even All+. These blades help you develop good technique and strong strokes. The blade does not give you the speed so that you need to get the timing and the power right for yourself. When you do that your shots go, with more than enough speed. Also, these blades usually have more dwell time so you can learn to spin the ball better, and develop more control with your placement.

I believe the CNT used to use Stiga Clipper to train children who were prospects for the team. That is a great blade. So is, Stiga Energy Wood, or Stiga Allround NCT. All of those blades cost about 1/3 of the price of a Viscaria and are excellent blades. I know many pros who use Clipper. Almost all the Pros from China who live in NYC where I live, recommend Stiga Clipper more than anything else and also play with it.

TTANKEY
05-05-2012, 03:03 PM
I agree with UpSideDownCarl, he is still using a viscaria... and the Zhang Jike blade is more expensive than viscaria, and they're almost the same thing. If I was you, i would buiy Viscaria

xGG
05-06-2012, 08:51 PM
Thanks guys, I have asked around and finally decided to use the Timo Boll ALC blade instead. I'm also planning to use H3 provincial for my FH and Tenergy for my BH. I checked the "What the Pro's Use?" topic and found out that many are using the Tenergy 05 or 64. Now my question is that what are the differences between all the Tenergies? There are 05, 05 FX, 64, 64 FX, 25, and 25 FX at the same level of quality (price). So what is FX? Some of my friends i talked to told me to get 25 as my BH. Base on what do I choose??? Just like buying cars, many choices at a same price level, but obviously I don't need to look at the appearance of the rubber here (they are all red/black and no fancy looking). Also my friend told me that provincial H3 is better than National H3 for me because National H3 are for pros and doesn't last very long, is that true?
please advise! Thanks again.

JustAlt
05-06-2012, 09:34 PM
It is hard to give any advice because intermediate can be anything from a total newbie to a Chinese provincial level player for example. You should tell us( or rather show us) what you can and cannot do at the moment.
Technique and consistency are the big questions here.

ttmonster
05-07-2012, 12:19 AM
I had been using a Donic Waldner Ultra Senso Carbon till it snapped off yesterday. Going to use the blade you mentioned from today albeit with 64 on both sides. Can tell you after a couple of days my thoughts

TTANKEY
05-07-2012, 01:19 AM
Thanks guys, I have asked around and finally decided to use the Timo Boll ALC blade instead. I'm also planning to use H3 provincial for my FH and Tenergy for my BH. I checked the "What the Pro's Use?" topic and found out that many are using the Tenergy 05 or 64. Now my question is that what are the differences between all the Tenergies? There are 05, 05 FX, 64, 64 FX, 25, and 25 FX at the same level of quality (price). So what is FX? Some of my friends i talked to told me to get 25 as my BH. Base on what do I choose??? Just like buying cars, many choices at a same price level, but obviously I don't need to look at the appearance of the rubber here (they are all red/black and no fancy looking). Also my friend told me that provincial H3 is better than National H3 for me because National H3 are for pros and doesn't last very long, is that true?
please advise! Thanks again.
Hey, great choice for blade! I never used a hurricane, but I have friends that use "pro" and like a lot. It doesn´t lose spin, but a little speed... ~ I think national H3 is better in quality and they have more life time than provincial... But I think the best choice still is a provincial, because the national is more expensive than provincial ~ The tenergy 05 is spinnier than 64 and 25; the tenergy 64 is faster than the other ones; and the tenergy 25 is a medium one, that is good for players near the table... and "FX" is another version of the same rubber, but softer ;D

Hope be helpful! ^^

sxTT
05-07-2012, 01:53 AM
TB ALC is a good blade, H3 and Tenergy with ALC is a good set up, but what is more important is does the set up suit your level? as you have mentioned its used by the pros and therefore its a pro level set up, but if you have a decent technique no doubt its a very good set up, anyway i have only tried T64, T05 and T05 fx, T05 is my favorite tenergy, its very spinny has a very high throw angle more suited more a looping game, T64 is faster, has a lower throw, slightly softer but its too bouncy for me on short game, fx rubbers are softer, honestly im no fan of fx rubbers, depends on your game which rubber you choose

xGG
05-07-2012, 05:46 AM
Thanks guys. My back hand is more blocking than looping. So I think 64 is my best choice?
I dont know how to describe my play level. I mean i can do FH and BH looping pretty well. I think that's my strongest. My weakest is receiving. My arms are pretty long so i can make pretty good angles with my attacks! on a scale of 1-100 i would say im at 65ish?

sxTT
05-07-2012, 07:06 AM
h3 national and provincial has good quality over commercial ones but thats just about it, playing characteristics are the same, ive tried them and playing with national and provincial rubbers didnt make me a better player, i know that if i didnt know which is which on an experiment i cant tell it by judging how they play, but then again if money is not a problem then its fine you get a prov or a natl sheet, sometimes its all in the mind, im just saying my opinion though i sure others may disagree, one more thing T64 is good at blocking but in my experience its too bouncy for the short game

JustAlt
05-07-2012, 07:40 AM
Thanks guys. My back hand is more blocking than looping. So I think 64 is my best choice?
I dont know how to describe my play level. I mean i can do FH and BH looping pretty well. I think that's my strongest. My weakest is receiving. My arms are pretty long so i can make pretty good angles with my attacks! on a scale of 1-100 i would say im at 65ish?

If you mostly block with your backhand and you're not a high level player, why waste your money on any kind of tenergy?
You could tell about your consistency a little; for example how many times can you loop in a row if every one is blocked back? How does it chance when you add power? The same for counterloops, can you do it consistently and how about when you really go all out?
About chinese rubbers for the forehand, they generally(if not too heavily boosted and soft) are great for short game but require more effort off the table, which IMHO is just a good thing.

kerem_erboke
05-07-2012, 09:31 AM
I believe the Zhang Jike blade is pretty much the same blade as the Viscaria and if you watch Zhang Jike, he is still using a Viscaria. Getting a Viscaria might save you a decent amount of money though. If you are good with fast blades they are fine. They are good blades. My way of looking at things though, is that, until you are more than just proficient with all your strokes and your footwork, you don't really need a blade that is rated Off or Off+. Most players are better off with blades rated Off- or even All+. These blades help you develop good technique and strong strokes. The blade does not give you the speed so that you need to get the timing and the power right for yourself. When you do that your shots go, with more than enough speed. Also, these blades usually have more dwell time so you can learn to spin the ball better, and develop more control with your placement.

I believe the CNT used to use Stiga Clipper to train children who were prospects for the team. That is a great blade. So is, Stiga Energy Wood, or Stiga Allround NCT. All of those blades cost about 1/3 of the price of a Viscaria and are excellent blades. I know many pros who use Clipper. Almost all the Pros from China who live in NYC where I live, recommend Stiga Clipper more than anything else and also play with it.


Hi Carl

A few days ago my son's TT trainer requested us to change his blade to Off because he said he must start using Off blade if he wont be a deffence player. I was really suprised but of course i did not say something about my disagreement.

What do you think ? is it better him to get used to work with off racket ? He is 9 years old and he started 1 year ago...


Thanks

UpSideDownCarl
05-07-2012, 01:43 PM
The tenergy 05 is spinnier than 64 and 25; the tenergy 64 is faster than the other ones; and the tenergy 25 is a medium one, that is good for players near the table...

For the most part you have presented useful info. Unfortunately you have T25 and T64 a little backwards. Here is how they work.

All three Tenergys have the same sponge. The topsheet is the same but the pimple structure between the topsheet and the sponge is diffeerent. Tenergy 05 has the smallest pimples, smallest radius/diameter. 64 has a slightly larger pimple than 05 and so the sheet has a slightly harder feel so it gets a little less spin and a little more speed because the larger pimples have less give in them. Tenergy 25 has the largest pimples, they are actually pretty big. This gives the topsheet the hardest feel, the ball will sink in to the topsheet less and be pushed out faster which makes it have the least amount of spin of the three Tenergys, and the most speed. I have heard people say that 05 is for closer to the table, 64 is for mid distance and 25 is for farther from the table. From my experience, all of them work well from all distances and none of them lose power as you are farther from the table. They are all good.

But the pimple size is what changes the playing characteristics. 05 is smallest pimples, 64 is medium pimples, 25 is largest pimples.

UpSideDownCarl
05-07-2012, 01:47 PM
Hi Carl

A few days ago my son's TT trainer requested us to change his blade to Off because he said he must start using Off blade if he wont be a deffence player. I was really suprised but of course i did not say something about my disagreement.

What do you think ? is it better him to get used to work with off racket ? He is 9 years old and he started 1 year ago...


Thanks

Being honest, I don't know. It is common for children training and learning techniques to use Off- or All+ rated rackets like the Butterfly Primorac Off- or Stiga Allround Oversize All+. But I would have to see your son play and also talk to his trainer to find out why he feels that your son needs an Off rated blade. If it is a good blade and it is not too fast it might be fine. And there might be some specific reason that your son's trainer has for this.

What does your son play like?

kerem_erboke
05-07-2012, 02:49 PM
Being honest, I don't know. It is common for children training and learning techniques to use Off- or All+ rated rackets like the Butterfly Primorac Off- or Stiga Allround Oversize All+. But I would have to see your son play and also talk to his trainer to find out why he feels that your son needs an Off rated blade. If it is a good blade and it is not too fast it might be fine. And there might be some specific reason that your son's trainer has for this.

What does your son play like?

He cannot spin at the moment but he can chop and push with his backhand and forhand on the table. His trainer sugested us to use a wooden off blade to start get used to play with an off blade.

I asked a few people and they advised me to buy stiga clipper cr...

regards

Knuckle Ball
08-10-2012, 06:24 AM
Allround Stiga blade or an even cheaper 729 or LKT Instict or Instinct+. This will do the job.
My 11 year old son is using an 729 Bomb blade with Evo1 and 729 Super FX. He has just started playing 6 months ago. He just won 4th place in the local 14 yrs and under TT tourney.

UpSideDownCarl
08-10-2012, 03:54 PM
He cannot spin at the moment but he can chop and push with his backhand and forhand on the table. His trainer sugested us to use a wooden off blade to start get used to play with an off blade.

I asked a few people and they advised me to buy stiga clipper cr...

regards

Clipper is a good blade but it is pretty fast and does not have so much dwell time so it is harder to learn to spin loops with it than with a slightly slower blade. But, it is a good blade and I believe that it is one blade that they use for training children in China (perhaps these children are older than 9 though). :)

Since this thread was first posted I have been talking to two friends of mine who are pros and coaches who grew up in Europe and were on teams in Europe. Both of them, even though they are from different countries game me the same information. For a player trying to develop offensive skills they should use a blade that is all wood, no composite materials like Carbon. The blade's speed should be Off- or All+, not faster than Off-. And the rubbers should be on the soft side for more control and spin.

Independently of each other, they both said that when they were growing up, and they were on the children's national teams of their country (one of them was a multiple time children's national champion), that the coach from their team simply told them exactly what racket and rubbers they were to use and it was not an issue of shopping around for the right setup. The coach said, this is what you use, and gave them the racket setup. Invariably it was blades like the Butterfly Primorac Off- blade with rubbers like Sriver FX. Very simple. Butterfly Jonyer Hinoki is another blade in that category, but I don't think they make this one any more. The new Jonyer Hinoki Special is a little too fast for a developing player.

Again, I am not really sure reasons your son's coach has for this choice and it might be one that is based on some aspect of his game, and I am also not sure what level your coach is, but this information came from two players who, if they had pursued playing would probably have been on their national teams and playing on the ITTF pro tour. And that is what both of them said.

I had been playing with a Clipper and they were not advising me on changing my setup. They thought it was fine for me. But, in talking to them about the reasons why a player who is not pretty close to the level of a pro should not use such a fast blade, I decided to change my setup and use a slower blade.

I am not sure how many of you out there understand the USATT rating system, so I will provide some information. I will start from the top down. The highest USATT rating belongs to Kong Linghui and it is 2911. Wang Liqin is 2907. They got these ratings when they played in a USATT sanctioned tournament in the USA. So it does not really indicate their actual level. I merely indicates that they were so good that nobody who already had a USATT rating could do much of anything against them. :)

The rating that Waldner got in 2004 when he was clearly older was: 2870. In 2005 Samsonov got a 2868 rating.

The current rating of the men's player from the US who went to the olympics is 2581. My guess, his world ranking would be somewhere around 400 in the world. Give or take 200 points. :)

Biljana "Biba" Golic is rated 2321. Biba is the KillerSpin poster girl.

Ariel Hsing who went to the Olympics for the US women's team has a rating of 2538. She might be able to make into the top 50 of the women's rankings.

An expert amateur players is said to be around 2000. What I notice is that a player around 2000 is, in many ways, very good, but they still are missing certain fundamental technique things. They can still look like an awkward amateur when playing certain kinds of trick players with pips rubbers. At around 2200 a player starts looking solid fundamentally and does not lose their form even when playing someone with a very awkward unconventional style. Most players in the USA if they had a rating would be somewhere between 300-1900. There are many players in the US who think they are good but if they had a rating would be around 1000. :)

Now, what is all this info for?

One of my friends who I am talking about said that an offensive player under 2200-2300 should not use a blade faster than Off-, and that the blade should be all wood, and that they should use rubbers that allow for good control to develop, touch, feeling, spin, and good strokes. That, with a faster blade, the risk is, that because the ball does not stay on the blade as long, and because it is harder to feel the ball on the blade, you do not develop the feeling for the ball while it is on your racket that you should. And because the blade is faster a player might compromise their stroke and not take a full stroke and not follow through properly because they are trying to get the ball on the table with a blade that causes the ball to fly without them needing to put the effort of a full stoke in. The stroke can be compact and full at the same time. But with an Off rated blade, often a lower rated player who does not already have top flight mechanics, whill get in the habit of cutting off the followthrough and developing hitches in the mechanics of their stroke as a result of the speed of the blade.

UpSideDownCarl
08-10-2012, 05:52 PM
By the way, my stroke and my playing has definitely improved as a result of switching from the Clipper to the Stiga Allround NCT blade. I think the Allround Evolution is really an excellent choice as well. I have not felt any loss of power and I can feel that I can spin the ball better and my strokes have improved. I can feel the ball stay on the surface for longer and can feel myself spinning the ball better. Having the feedback of feeling the ball better while it is on the surface of the racket and having the ball stay there for a much longer time really seems to help me.

strangeloop
08-10-2012, 06:38 PM
Carl, Very helpful posts.. Thank you.. Just when I was about to lose faith in my setup and move to BTY Zhang Jike myself.. But I have ordered a DHS PG7 with H3 Neo and Xiom Vega Pro. Just to see how a faster blade (still all wood) feels.. Maybe if it suits my game and if I can maintain good form/technique with it, I will switch to it. Otherwise I will only replace the rubbers on my current setup regularly (every 3 months) so that it is fast, spinny yet familiar.

Xpro89
09-12-2013, 12:41 PM
how to check whether a butterfly blade is genuine or not?please help