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nexy
04-22-2013, 04:10 AM
HINOKI - deeper study

I feel sorry for the people who waited to meet the next article sooner than today.
But I decided to keep on writing maybe one time in a week, becaue this writing needs lots of energy and time.

Today, I'm gonna write more about Hinoki material, because I found out this material is the least known wood for players outside of Korean and Japan.
Recently, I received a mail asking about Hinoki one-ply blade, and he was not satisfied with the price I gave to him.
And I explained why the price is so high, and he replied with apologies.
So, I thought maybe I need to give one more writing about Hinoki material, to help people outside of Korean market to understand it better.




1. Character

When hinoki is used for the surface of a blade, as Iwrote in the before article, it makes the player feel that the ball sticks to the blade. If your swing movement is fast, then you will feel that the ball will follow the whole arch of the blade's trajectory.

Hinoki feels different from other material in that point. So, you can make a effective top spin shot even thought you hit the ball very light. The ball follows the blade, and it goes very slowly, but with big spin, and it looks that really flies too slow to be visible.

Many Koreans can do this kiond of slow but spinny looping, because they have been playing with Hinoki for many decades, and we call it "fake loop", because sometimes the ball comes after the blade, due to it's slow speed. If your arm moves very fast, and the ball is hit very slightly, then the ball flies after the blade has finished the whole swing, and everybody can see the ball flies slowly after the blade. It’s very awesome moment, because it takes away the expected timing for the opponent, and sometimes even the opponent block the ball with right timing, still the ball is too slow and weak, the ball doesn’t react to the usual way, and it creeps onto the rubber of the opponent’s blade, and goes high making the other player struck by unusual surprise.

So, this is one factor I like hinoki material. It’s good to make the ball follow the blade.
But on the contrary, it’s also harmful for a player to learn fast and powerful looping skill.
In Korea, it was not hard to see people making only “fake loop” instead of normal powerful loop, because it’s fantastic to feel how it works. But sooner or later, that kind of style will be defeated by a higher level player with big disappointment and purplexity. If the other player knows well when to block with what angle, that kind of style can not win against him. So, it’s not good if a player wants to upgrade his level.

Anyway, I think there could be some people interested in this kind of “fake loop”.
I used to do it, when I played with one-ply hinoki, but now I lost it.
I hope I can show it some day with movie clip, if possible.

There is another distinction you can easily feel when you use Hinoki on the surface.
If you block the ball with Hinoki surface, it’s really good to control the length of the ball.
If you push down your blade with good angle loosening the power, then the ball will go very short.
It’s very sensitive moment to enjoy. You can feel how the ball touches your hinoki surface, and to go back with stable trajectory.
The blocked ball moves in a very stable way, because the trajectory is higher and in good control.
It will not be very aggressive, but you can feel comfortable, and you will feel the you hold the control of the returning ball.

I think this is very fascinating factor, and that’s the true merit of Hinoki surface.
This factor also comes from the first factor that hinoki feels sticky.





2. demerits of hinoki

Yes, there are lots of demerits in Hinoki. It’s not a magic material.

The first thing is, once you are accustomed to this material, you will not be comfortable with other materials any longer, because Hinoki has it’s distictive swing trajectory.
When you are good with Hinoki, then it changes little by little your swing movement as it wants.
You happen to fold your upper arm faster, and will get better speed and impact, but the angle of the blade can be little bit different from others.
You might become faster, but you lose some general movement, which goes all right to most other players.
I can say this way, because I’ve gone through the same, while I study what’s the difference between hinoki and other material.

And another demerits will be price.
Hinoki material is extremely expensive.

Let’s start with the brief history of one-ply hinoki blade with Japanese penholder grip.
Most Korean and Japanese players used to play with Japanese penholder grip.
And that style is totally different from normal shake hand users.

Most popular blades were one-ply hinoki, and if a player wants to have enough speed, it should be around 10mm thick.
So, one-ply thick hinoki plate is needed for production.
But if you use that hinoki plate, then it needs to come from one hinoki trunk. It can not be glued from different pieces.

If you look at hinoki material, there are vertical lines.
Each line comes from one year, because it is made according to the speed of growth.
When it’s warm, it grows fast, but in winter, it’s speed is slow.
So, when it grows slow, it gives darker color, which results in darker line we can notify.

Normally, one blade needs a width which takes up around 150~200 lines.
If a tree is 100 old, then it will have 200 lines; 100 lines from center to each other end.
So, we can say that if we want to make a blade without jointing pieces, then the mother tree at least need to be older than 100 years.
But it’s not only about width.
If a tree is 100 years old, then the blade will be only soft, not very speedy.
Young part is softer and weaker.
And old part is harder and more solid.

If a blade is made from big old tree, around 300~400 years old, then we can cut one blade from out part, and another in the middle, and the best one in the center.
So, it depends on the width of a tree how we can get the hinoki plate of which we make a blade.

By the way, all those old and big trees are getting smaller and smaller in their numbers, so recently the price of raw material is growing up high seedily.

When we see the blade, hinoki blades can be categorized by several factors.


( 1) Are they soft and weak? Or hard?

If they are soft, then they are from young tree or from the inside of old tree. If they are from young tree, then their price can be cheaper, but if they are from old tree’s center part, their price is priceless. But in fact, they are not very different. Actually, a blade made of the inner part of a big and old tree is almost the same from the one from young tree.

Recently, the price of the blade from that old tree’s center part is two or three times higher than several years’ ago. But I think the difference is not very wide from the one cut from young tree, if we are making a several plies’ shake hand blades. And mostly I use that soft part for my blades. But still that material’s price is very expensive compared with other surface material, and that’s one reason I can not sell my hinoki surface blades cheaper.

There are several brands using American or Taiwanese hinoki, but those are not expensive at all, and the character is very different. Taiwanese hinoki is heavier than Japanese Kiso Hinoki, and the function is very different, and I don’t think it’s good surface material.


(2) Do they have vertical lines with constant distance, or else lines are getting wider into one direction?

If a material is cut exactly on the center, then the lines will get wider into both directions. If not, it should get wider from one side to the other end. Normally, it’s not easy to find all the lines keep the same distance, because young parts close to the outer are wider and also the part headed to south gets more wider than the part headed to north. So, normally, a blade can not keep the same width over the whole lines on the blade.

For long years, many Korean people have known that narrower lines mean better blade, but I found that it’s not always correct. If lines are narrow, then it means they are hard, which is not good for all round play. If a player wants to have a big “bang impact”, then it has to keep modest softness, if not, the ball does not stay some due moments needed for that “bang impact”.


(3) Are they heavy or light?

Now I think you already know the answer. If the material from inner part or from younger tree, they tend to be light. Any way, that’s why expensive blades are light. Most expensive blades are cut from the inner part of an old tree, and they are soft and light, so some brands are making them 10.5mm thick, not 10.0, because they need to cover that lightness by thicker material.


(4) Are they brown or white?

Hinoki has it's typical color.
Some are very whilte, and in that case, most blades are from inner part. If a blade is brown, it normally means that are from outer part of a big tree, which is more expensive than the part from young tree.
Any way, you can picture the fuction by their color also.





3. How I designed Nexy’s Hinoki surface blades.


Ok, up to here, I’ve been reporting general information about Hinoki blades.
But more important thing for me is how I designed my nexy blades.
I used expensive and qualified Japanese Hinoki materials on my several blades.
So, I will explain one by one, how I intended to make them.


Dexter

3616


Hannibal


3617


Oscar


3618


Color


3619


Regarding all those Hinoki surface blades, I prefer to use soft material.
If I use hard surface, then the total character will be different.
But with my brand NEXY, specially with all these Hinoki blades, I decided to show what’s NEXY’s character.
It should be harmonized, and well balanced.

With this soft material, I needed to use little bit thicker outer ply, than other general hinoki surface blades.
In many cases, Hinoki surface is around or thinner than 0.5mm, by which it’s not easy to get “bang impact” effect.
If that thin Hinoki surface is possible to make speedy top spin shot, then it will not guarantee enough “staying moment” needed for “bang impact”.

So, I chose to use soft hinoki, but thicker than 0.5mm.
And I calculated in each blades how to harmonize that thickness with other plies.

Among those 4 blades, specially Hannibal and Oscar’s hinoki is softer.
I use very soft material for both blade, because I need to empower better feelings onto that blades, which are mixed with artificial materials.

If you look at generally well known hinoki carbon blades, they are using 0.5mm or 1.0mm hinoki surface.
But if it’s 0.5mm, the ball is too bouncy, and if it’s 1.0mm, you don’t have good feeling onto your hand.
But I solved these seemingly incompatible problems with soft, but thicker hinoki, matching with light and bouncy center ply(which I don’t want to tell).

So, when you play with Hannibal, you will be surprised to know that this blade is very soft and it grabs the ball inwardly deep as well as very soft and light.
With this softness, you can feel the balance between fast carbon layer and soft touch of Hinoki out ply.

With Oscar, I spent the whole year and a half only for extreme natural feelings, which was not seemed to be attainable with arylate carbon ply.
I studied every possible chances mixing different thickness for surface, and that was the time when I was sure that I decided to consummate the constitution of Oscar as it is now.
I used not too thick but thick enough to carry good feeling and power needed for this well balanced blade.


Regarding Dexter, I thought I would open my new brand by something surprising and outstanding, too different from all other 5-ply blades to overlook. So the result is most speedy 5 ply hinoki blade, DEXTER.
If I used other material for Dexter, then the blade will not be catching the ball enough to make spinny shots.
But I chose Hinoki for the surface, by which, you can make spinny shots when you make a good impact on it.

By the way, I think if your swing movement is not speedy as normal Asian players, then you will not be able to think that this blade has good spin, though.
So, I thought I had to make another one, with better spin and good balance, and that became the reason for my next blade “COLOR”, which became a big attractive item for many players as you can see here.


<<<<<< Blade: Nexy Color FL (5-ply wood)
Speed: 8.0
Control: 9.0
Feel: Med-Soft
Weight: 93 grams
Rubbers:
FH: Dawei Inspirit Quattro Ultralight Red 2.0 40 degs (regular)
BH: Dawei Inspirit Quattro Ultralight Black 1.8 40 degs (regular)
Total weight: 184 g

General comments:

Blade seems pretty light but actually is rather heavy - 93-94 grams!

It is very well crafted, quality is superb. For a price of around 70 US dollars (75000 Korean won) it seems to be quite a piece of art. I put double edge tape on it to protect the edges - let's hope it will be absolutely intact when the testing is over. I almost wanted to frame it and hang it on the wall...

It has 5 plies - real Japanese Cypress (Hinoki) on the relatively thin outer plies and Ayous for the central ply, but two other outer layers (the ones directly underneath the surface Hinoki layers) are horizontally-laid Spruce to make the blade a bit faster while still retaining very good control.

The unpainted side feels extremely smooth - probably some varnish was used there. Same on the painted side but then the picture of the colorful splash was painted on top of the sealant, i assume...

Review:

Had about an hour of playing with the blade. First impression is that it is rather springy, with some noticeable flex. Almost no vibration. Despite its medium-thin thickness (approximately 6 mm) it has absolutely no problem returning the ball from even 10 feet away from the table - while doing that with IQUL 1.8 which by itself is not a very springy rubber at this thickness. Pleasant surprise.

Almost from the first minute I realized that I could play it rather comfortably - some blades take really long time getting used to. Color isn't one of those. I played an opponent with whom we lately have had very close matches usually ending 3-2, and I managed to beat her 3-2 with this completely new blade and with the rubbers which I haven't played in 6 months. That says something!

I would say it is an OFF- or OFF blade, softness/hardness in the middle of the range.

Balance was shifted a bit into the handle and as a consequence the blade felt a little light when smashing but that can be easily attributed to the lightness of the rubbers - the blade itself, as I said before, weighs 93 g.

I will play some more and then probably switch the rubbers to something a bit thicker. The next set will probably be Gambler Aces Pro 2.2 (FH) and LKT Rapid Soft 2.2 (BH).

Improvements:

Handle feels just a tad smaller than I am used to, but that is really nothing to gripe about. One can always add a thin layer of grip. >>>>>>



Ok, I think there could be a lot more to say, but it will be too much for me to write more.
So, I will write if I find some more in the next article.

Please, write anything unclear for you.
I will try my best to answer, if you have questions.

Thank you for reading all through.
It was not short today again.

Der_Echte
04-23-2013, 03:12 PM
The older Korean gents who use Hinoke blades are simply EVIL, pure evil to their opponents haha. Good stuff Pr. Moon.

strangeloop
04-23-2013, 05:22 PM
Very informative! Thank you. I guess good opponents will adjust to your speed and spin quickly. A fascinating post about Hinoki and its characteristics, nevertheless.

revulucao
04-23-2013, 10:52 PM
great information!

strangeloop
04-24-2013, 07:07 AM
There are several brands using American or Taiwanese hinoki, but those are not expensive at all, and the character is very different. Taiwanese hinoki is heavier than Japanese Kiso Hinoki, and the function is very different, and I don’t think it’s good surface material.


Can you specifically expand on this? Which type of Hinoki has what characteristics? How are they different? What does Nexy use in its blades?

Knuckle Ball
04-25-2013, 06:20 AM
I use an Adidas V1.3 5 ply with Hinoki top. So that's why it feels different, in a pleasant kind of way than all my other blades. A different feel and like more sense of control. I'm not eloquent enough to describe it in words, but it feels nice.

Loopadoop
11-27-2017, 03:55 PM
Hinoki outer surface with a balsa core is a great combo for a long pips paddle.

langel
11-27-2017, 05:48 PM
Best review! Thank you.

"If your arm moves very fast, and the ball is hit very slightly, then the ball flies after the blade has finished the whole swing, and everybody can see the ball flies slowly after the blade. It’s very awesome moment, because it takes away the expected timing for the opponent, and sometimes even the opponent block the ball with right timing, still the ball is too slow and weak, the ball doesn’t react to the usual way, and it creeps onto the rubber of the opponent’s blade, and goes high making the other player struck by unusual surprise."

Absolutely right, when I happen to do such a shot, the opponent usually ask me if I had hit the ball with my elbow.

bobpuls
11-28-2017, 02:58 AM
Nice..... But anyway I think is a little bit overrated.
When is so great like this article say.... Then why is poorly used with top players?. Anyway nice pr stuff.

UpSideDownCarl
11-28-2017, 05:02 AM
There was a time when Hinoki was very in vogue with the top players. I think there are two main reasons it went out of vogue.

1) When you are in a long match and sweat a lot, Hinoki absorbs the sweat more than most woods and the sweat totally changes the playing characteristics of the blade until the sweat evaporates again. So, your in this long match and you are dripping sweat, and your blade starts feeling and responding totally differently. Slower. Too much flex. Less kick.

2) The best Hinoki blades are 1 ply and 10mm thick or thicker. This worked much better in the old days for traditional penholders who only used rubber on one side so they could get away with having a ridiculously heavy 10mm thick blade.

Watch Ryu Seung Min in his prime. He is using a 1 ply Hinoki blade. Look at how it helps how he plays.

NextLevel
11-28-2017, 05:11 AM
Primorac Carbon is a Cypress/Hinoki outer ply, as are Amultart, Garaydia, Iolite, Schlager Carbon, Gergely etc.

All those blades did fine. IT all comes down to vogue and some players prefer the harder contact of koto, limba etc.

MDP
11-28-2017, 09:03 AM
I notice similar design-strategies to my own, so that's interesting to read. However I agree with bobpuls that hinoki is over rated.

Cutting down trees that take several hundred years to grow, to make table tennis bats, is also something I can't approve of.

But interesting read either way. Thanks for sharing.

Suga D
11-28-2017, 09:33 AM
Ok, let´s play a game then:

How would one call judging over something without knowing about it or in this case without having played with it?

Bingo! The answer is correct. The word we´ve been looking for is: PREJUDICE
200 pts. each for our candidates.
[Emoji2]

bobpuls
11-28-2017, 12:17 PM
My first blade a really old one 30 + years old has hinoki top ply ... I keep it from nostalgia .... is my speed reference blade ...

Suga D
11-28-2017, 05:44 PM
Errr... did you fully read (and more importantly: did you also understand) OP's post?

No offence.
I'm asking because a blade with a Hinoki top ply and inner plies from different wood types will feel quite different compared to an all Hinoki blade.

To really be able to tell HOW Hinoki feels you should try one. It's really nice. Whenever you get the chance it's worth trying it.
;)

bobpuls
11-28-2017, 06:13 PM
op post is pure advert .... but i agree

richrf
11-28-2017, 08:49 PM
I notice similar design-strategies to my own, so that's interesting to read. However I agree with bobpuls that hinoki is over rated.

Cutting down trees that take several hundred years to grow, to make table tennis bats, is also something I can't approve of.

But interesting read either way. Thanks for sharing.

Memo to TT marketing departments: not a good idea advertising that you are destroying 200 year old trees for sport and as an advertising gimmick. Not everyone believes it is a great idea.

MDP
11-28-2017, 08:50 PM
Ok, let´s play a game then:

How would one call judging over something without knowing about it or in this case without having played with it?

Bingo! The answer is correct. The word we´ve been looking for is: PREJUDICE
200 pts. each for our candidates.
[Emoji2]
I'm not sure if you're referring to my post or not, but here goes. I don't claim to have played with every hinoki blade out there, but I have played with a few with different types of usage of hinoki. These were not 30 year old 10mm thick one ply penhold blades. I allso don't know which part of the tree the wood came from etc.

Did they play bad? No. Are all the stories about this magical fairy wood true? No.
The OP goes into this aswell in his post, but the extraordinary legendary status of this wood still remains. Part of it is probably as with many TT-equipment, that people want to believe the hype (aka being overrated). Another part of it is probably because of the scarcity and age of trees being cut (which doesn't automatically make it a better product). Both these aspects are things I'm not very fond of for various reasons!

On a final note: Calling someone on the internet you don't really know prejudiced, shows you're a bit prejudiced yourself btw. Everyone has his/her opinion based on his/her experiences. If you're a big fan of hinoki and can point out why this wood is completely not overrated, I'm glad to read your story.

MDP
11-28-2017, 08:56 PM
Memo to TT marketing departments: not a good idea advertising that you are destroying 200 year old trees for sport and as an advertising gimmick. Not everyone believes it is a great idea.
Haha good one. It adds to the whole myth about it though. Like a magical sword cast out of metal from a meteorite or something.

In my own little experiments I'm looking for eco-friendly durable woods to build blades. Come to think of it, I'd better copyright that stuff in case the big brands decide to go 'green' in the future :D

NextLevel
11-28-2017, 09:06 PM
Haha good one. It adds to the whole myth about it though. Like a magical sword cast out of metal from a meteorite or something.

In my own little experiments I'm looking for eco-friendly durable woods to build blades. Come to think of it, I'd better copyright that stuff in case the big brands decide to go 'green' in the future :D

I am fairly sure there are already eco-friendly blades - too late but nice try.:p

richrf
11-28-2017, 09:07 PM
Haha good one. It adds to the whole myth about it though. Like a magical sword cast out of metal from a meteorite or something.

In my own little experiments I'm looking for eco-friendly durable woods to build blades. Come to think of it, I'd better copyright that stuff in case the big brands decide to go 'green' in the future :D

I don't know if too many clubs where going around bragging that a 200 year old tree was cut up for a blade is going to get a round of applause. Apparently some cultures think it is a super idea otherwise the manufacturers wouldn't be bragging about it. But I appreciate the information. I'll know to avoid these manufacturers.

bobpuls
11-29-2017, 04:01 AM
Do not take it so harsh... this is just smart advert ...
This all comes 7 years in different forum .. this is just to makes Nexy blade more visible.
But trust me if someone gives a such effort to get this type of old and perfect wood they will give you a Certificate about to support the price .
http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=35293&title=nexy-designers-diary.
Anyway Nexy is making interesting a new types of blade compositions , that is true. Thumb up on them .

langel
11-29-2017, 05:24 AM
Hinoki used in TT blades is at least 1 000 000 times less than the Hinoki used in buildings and other stuff.

richrf
11-29-2017, 05:32 AM
Hinoki used in TT blades is at least 1 000 000 times less than the Hinoki used in buildings and other stuff.

I guess that means we should all join in the fun of cutting up 200 year old trees.

Loopadoop
11-29-2017, 06:53 AM
Most of the blades are probably cut from young trees.

langel
11-29-2017, 08:34 AM
I'm pretty shure that in Japan there are institutions and specialists, which control the process of cutting trees.
Keeping all of the oldest trees is may be not the best way to maintain a forest in a good shape. Controlled and sanitary cutting and planting of knew tree generation are vital for the forest health. And I think that this is very well organized in Japan.

MDP
11-29-2017, 10:43 AM
I'm pretty shure that in Japan there are institutions and specialists, which control the process of cutting trees.
Keeping all of the oldest trees is may be not the best way to maintain a forest in a good shape. Controlled and sanitary cutting and planting of knew tree generation are vital for the forest health. And I think that this is very well organized in Japan.
As Loopdaloop stated, most of the wood is probably cut from younger trees. (I hope...)
The OP talks about a tree of about 300-400 years old. I don't think that fits into a durable cycle (where trees are cut and planted and cut, over and over).

But this is a much larger problem of which we don't have all the facts and which is happening all around the world.

langel
11-29-2017, 11:57 AM
Sometimes using a global problem as a model gives a very crooked image of other specific models.

richrf
11-29-2017, 12:26 PM
Xiom is bragging on their website that their new Feel Z blades are made from 250 year old Jiri Hinoki trees. I guess their marketing department felt that was the only way to compete with Butterfly.

Suga D
11-29-2017, 12:33 PM
I'm not sure if you're referring to my post or not, but here goes. I don't claim to have played with every hinoki blade out there, but I have played with a few with different types of usage of hinoki. These were not 30 year old 10mm thick one ply penhold blades. I allso don't know which part of the tree the wood came from etc.

Did they play bad? No. Are all the stories about this magical fairy wood true? No.
The OP goes into this aswell in his post, but the extraordinary legendary status of this wood still remains. Part of it is probably as with many TT-equipment, that people want to believe the hype (aka being overrated). Another part of it is probably because of the scarcity and age of trees being cut (which doesn't automatically make it a better product). Both these aspects are things I'm not very fond of for various reasons!

On a final note: Calling someone on the internet you don't really know prejudiced, shows you're a bit prejudiced yourself btw. Everyone has his/her opinion based on his/her experiences. If you're a big fan of hinoki and can point out why this wood is completely not overrated, I'm glad to read your story.

As you can see from my second comment my post was mostly directed towards Bob, but if the shoe fits then might as well wear it.

Hinoki is a very polarizing material.
It's a love it or hate it thing. My job is certainly not to convince you and make you love it.
I guess if it benefits your game it will be very loved, if not it won't.
I guess it's basically a spinners thang.

But in fact your attitude towards 300 year old japanese cypress trees is very respectable and noble and at the same time a bit hypocritical and complacent, and carries a whole lot of that holier-than-thou attitude.

Next you'll try to tell me you've witnessed every plank of wood that you've used for your blades being cut from the tree logs you've seen grow, and no squirrels and birds were harmed when they were cut down.
[Emoji23]
C'mon dude, not only 300 year old trees are worth saving. Aren't the younger ones also worth it? How will it become 300 y.o. if it gets cut down after 10 or 20 years.
Also worth noting that the japanese know very well what kind of treasure they have and protect these trees and only allow a very small number being cut down.


Haha good one. It adds to the whole myth about it though. Like a magical sword cast out of metal from a meteorite or something.

In my own little experiments I'm looking for eco-friendly durable woods to build blades. Come to think of it, I'd better copyright that stuff in case the big brands decide to go 'green' in the future :D

If you're really serious with your attitude YOU SHOULDN'T BE USING WOOD AT ALL, INSTEAD WHY NOT USE THE FASTEST GROWING FIBRE: BAMBOO!!
Don't say it's impossible, it's been done before.
Even Kevin from Americanhinoki has experienced with bamboo... IMHO


Besides you're not the first that came up with the idea of 'organically' grown blades.
Ever heard of JOOLA Greenline??
[Emoji6]

MDP
11-29-2017, 01:36 PM
As you can see from my second comment my post was mostly directed towards Bob, but if the shoe fits then might as well wear it.

Hinoki is a very polarizing material.
It's a love it or hate it thing. My job is certainly not to convince you and make you love it.
I guess if it benefits your game it will be very loved, if not it won't.
I guess it's basically a spinners thang.

I can agree. Despite it being very subjective, I still feel that it's overrated compared to similar species of wood.


But in fact your attitude towards 300 year old japanese cypress trees is very respectable and noble and at the same time a bit hypocritical and complacent, and carries a whole lot of that holier-than-thou attitude.

Next you'll try to tell me you've witnessed every plank of wood that you've used for your blades being cut from the tree logs you've seen grow, and no squirrels and birds were harmed when they were cut down.
[Emoji23]

C'mon dude, not only 300 year old trees are worth saving. Aren't the younger ones also worth it? How will it become 300 y.o. if it gets cut down after 10 or 20 years.


Nobody is without flaws and nobody has all the information. I'm not claiming that I do. I'm just expressing what I know and what I believe. If I can learn something new, i'm glad to.

The hipocrisy-claim, seems to become a standard go-to-argument in every discussion about durable living. Be it about public transport vs private transport, eating meat vs vegans, ... It really doesn't lead anywhere and just attacks the person instead of contributing something substantial to the argument. So I suggest we just leave that stuff behind.

To focus on the specific case of lumber. There are 2 ends of the spectrum : one being cutting down trees in a non-durable way like what is happening in parts of the amazon / africa, the other being a durable cycle of planting and cutting.

The first case is the easiests and financially most interesting. It's what's been going on for ages. The result : deforestation.
A system where we cut down trees faster then it takes for them to grow, will always lead to a dead end.

The second case is harder, but you can't disagree that this will be better in the long run. A tree that's 300 years old, doesn't fit well into the second model. It could, but due to the lifespan of the average human, it's quite hard to govern.




Also worth noting that the japanese know very well what kind of treasure they have and protect these trees and only allow a very small number being cut down.



Let's hope so...



If you're really serious with your attitude YOU SHOULDN'T BE USING WOOD AT ALL, INSTEAD WHY NOT USE THE FASTEST GROWING FIBRE: BAMBOO!!
Don't say it's impossible, it's been done before.
Even Kevin from Americanhinoki has experienced with bamboo... IMHO


Again, I don't claim to be holier then the pope (it's a saying here) and I'm not against using wood in general. Every material has its use. Wood can be grown and could be an infinite source of material (unless we use too much too fast).
I'm well aware of the possibilities of bamboo, but mostly in the field of construction. (-200 prejudice points for me hooray)
I've looked into it, but haven't been able to find veneers without paperbacks. So no actual TT-experiments with it yet.




Besides you're not the first that came up with the idea of 'organically' grown blades.
Ever heard of JOOLA Greenline??
[Emoji6]
No, but I'll be sure to check it out.

yoass
11-29-2017, 01:37 PM
Most of the blades are probably cut from young trees.

Or from older single ply H1-9/H1-10 blades. Why, you might be able to get Hinoki top layers for >5 blades out of one.

langel
11-29-2017, 03:36 PM
The second case is harder, but you can't disagree that this will be better in the long run. A tree that's 300 years old, doesn't fit well into the second model. It could, but due to the lifespan of the average human, it's quite hard to govern.


The forest have been existing for many thousands, hundred of thousands or millioons of years. It has 400 years old, 399, 398, 397, 396 .....10 years old... 1 year old trees. Every year some of the oldest trees will die, giving place to younger ones. It's a natural process and happens in wild nature without human activity.
And again - in controlled forest regions the process of controlled and sanitary cutting and planned planting can be much more effective and forest keeping than in wild nature. And have in mind that the trees suffer from deseases too, so adequate human activity is more than helping.

MDP
11-29-2017, 04:40 PM
The forest have been existing for many thousands, hundred of thousands or millioons of years. It has 400 years old, 399, 398, 397, 396 .....10 years old... 1 year old trees. Every year some of the oldest trees will die, giving place to younger ones. It's a natural process and happens in wild nature without human activity.
And again - in controlled forest regions the process of controlled and sanitary cutting and planned planting can be much more effective and forest keeping than in wild nature. And have in mind that the trees suffer from deseases too, so adequate human activity is more than helping.
What you say is true and I agree that human activity can help sustain a forest. But that is not how commercial logging always works I'm afraid.

https://s-i.huffpost.com/gen/1883116/images/o-DEFORESTATION-facebook.jpg

But maybe we're taking it too far for a tabletennisforum?

bobpuls
11-29-2017, 06:53 PM
And now imagine Fukushima...... There will be some interesting wood after the carefull touch of man kind..... Sorry sarcastic, but it is the reality... I mean no harm only stupid joke with small point, and some beers involved.

UpSideDownCarl
11-29-2017, 08:14 PM
Okay. I am going to ignore the “Save the Rainforest” discussion and note that I am glad it is progressing towards being civil. [emoji2]

But I am going to say something about Hinoki and it’s playing characteristics.

Everyone has different feeling in their hands. And everyone has different preferences for what they like.

I can see how certain styles and ways of playing could cause some to miss what makes Hinoki special. I really can.

Particularly for drive looping, you could be better off with any number of other kinds of wood. And Hinoki is not going to have that crisp kind of snap or that deeper crunch that some woods have.

But if your play style and your hand feeling fit with what Hinoki does well, it can feel very special and kind of magical.

So I get the guys who feel Hinoki is nothing special and where they are coming from.

But if someone does feel those things a good Hinoki blade is really good for, you will just get it and it will feel MAGICAL. [emoji2]

You may not feel it or like Hinoki. But that does not mean that someone else is not feeling what they actually ARE FEELING.

Hinoki is not for everyone. But if you get it, it is kind of like you are an Illuminati. [emoji2]

And I am not sure there is much to discuss on that. So, when Suga D said it was a “SPINNER’s THANG”, there was a nod and a wink to the other Illuminati. But....maybe.....not everyone can read those hieroglyphics. [emoji2]


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Der_Echte
11-29-2017, 10:26 PM
Dispatch the GOON SQUAD, with false grid coordinates... it is beyond help even from Greg Letts and another vid in his series. Asbestos underwear is too late.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

penggao600
11-30-2017, 09:55 AM
The production of Hinoki is limited.

NextLevel
12-01-2017, 03:41 PM
Okay. I am going to ignore the “Save the Rainforest” discussion and note that I am glad it is progressing towards being civil. [emoji2]

But I am going to say something about Hinoki and it’s playing characteristics.

Everyone has different feeling in their hands. And everyone has different preferences for what they like.

I can see how certain styles and ways of playing could cause some to miss what makes Hinoki special. I really can.

Particularly for drive looping, you could be better off with any number of other kinds of wood. And Hinoki is not going to have that crisp kind of snap or that deeper crunch that some woods have.

But if your play style and your hand feeling fit with what Hinoki does well, it can feel very special and kind of magical.

So I get the guys who feel Hinoki is nothing special and where they are coming from.

But if someone does feel those things a good Hinoki blade is really good for, you will just get it and it will feel MAGICAL. [emoji2]

You may not feel it or like Hinoki. But that does not mean that someone else is not feeling what they actually ARE FEELING.

Hinoki is not for everyone. But if you get it, it is kind of like you are an Illuminati. [emoji2]

And I am not sure there is much to discuss on that. So, when Suga D said it was a “SPINNER’s THANG”, there was a nod and a wink to the other Illuminati. But....maybe.....not everyone can read those hieroglyphics. [emoji2]


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

I am using the Tibhar Inca (incidentally, a Nexy designed blade) and it has a hinoki-outer ply. To make things worse, it has a ball grabbing ALC ply for when you loop hard so the blade feels even more linear than most Hinoki blades. To make top it all off, I combined it with Evolution MX-S, one of the spinniest ball grabbing rubbers in the galaxy. Let's just say that my game feels magical again, even though the blocks of my opponent are probably not impressed. In fact, I need to find some 2300 player to take me out of wonderland. I will probably record some video this weekend but it is like I have ball bending ability. I have permanently joined the Illuminati ;).

Lightzy
12-01-2017, 06:50 PM
Oh cut it out you babies. Cut a tree, make a blade, plant 5 more trees. Stop whining already. It's farming.

Loopadoop
12-02-2017, 12:10 PM
Oh cut it out you babies. Cut a tree, make a blade, plant 5 more trees. Stop whining already. It's farming.

+1

If you want to complain about trees being used for making blades, start a petition to be submitted to the ITTF to allow non wood blades like regular Tennis uses, ie aluminum, graphite, fiberglass, etc.

UpSideDownCarl
12-02-2017, 04:00 PM
I am using the Tibhar Inca (incidentally, a Nexy designed blade) and it has a hinoki-outer ply. To make things worse, it has a ball grabbing ALC ply for when you loop hard so the blade feels even more linear than most Hinoki blades. To make top it all off, I combined it with Evolution MX-S, one of the spinniest ball grabbing rubbers in the galaxy. Let's just say that my game feels magical again, even though the blocks of my opponent are probably not impressed. In fact, I need to find some 2300 player to take me out of wonderland. I will probably record some video this weekend but it is like I have ball bending ability. I have permanently joined the Illuminati ;).

Tibhar Inca with Hinoki Outer Ply and ALC + MXS + NextLevel = More Spin, More Spin More Spin = Illuminati

:)

Hahahahaha. That is an evil combination and it would probably take a 2300+ player for NL not to spin his opponent off the table. :)

NextLevel
12-02-2017, 04:46 PM
Nah. The 2000 level players will handle me fine it is all in my head.

Der_Echte
12-02-2017, 04:53 PM
Tibhar Inca with Hinoki Outer Ply and ALC + MXS + NextLevel = More Spin, More Spin More Spin = Illuminati

:)

Hahahahaha. That is an evil combination and it would probably take a 2300+ player for NL not to spin his opponent off the table. :)

I am happy NL discovered some happiness, damned difficult to do with bad joints. Right now my back is so jacked up it is silly, cannot plant and explode for anything. I play like USATT 1000 level in a rally right now. At least I know how it happened (too long 3 yrs sitting chair at work, TT only once a week for 3-4 months, and no additional walking or other cross-exercise - then one hard session - BAM - injury) so with a little time I can fix it. NL's issues are more than a little more complex and not helped at all by practices of several evil industries beyond his control.

Der_Echte
12-02-2017, 05:00 PM
On a different note, the good ole $15 Yinhe 896 with a years old FH rubber and H3 or XP2008 can still spin it like crazy... but it is crazy that I seem to be the only one advocating this setup or seem to be the only one to find that setup usable or real spinny.

That happens a lot, people see me spinning real well with whatever rubber I use, have a try with the bat, then get that rubber, use it a month, then realize they cannot get that level of spin. Ditto for whatever blade I use. Players use it and like it a lot, then with one month using it, they do not get the same results I do... and naturally get discouraged.

This sets up a chance to make the statement concerning equipment selection I strongly believe in... There exists a flexible range of equipment suitable to do the most important shots for a player with control to make it easier to do what is important. Almost every company will make 2-12 blades and 2-5 rubbers suitable for this.

Get something in that golden zone, keep it and use it for a year or so. You will adjust and grow if it is in the right zone.

NextLevel
12-02-2017, 06:22 PM
Use Tenergy. The silly questions will end fast. I already have a high spin level. With certain balls my spin is ridiculous. When I loop the Nittaku I feel like it is speed glue era spin. I think the Evolution -S series is special.

NextLevel
12-03-2017, 05:31 PM
I'm quite aware about that "magical feeling". It's no different than that magical feeling of cutting up an elephant for ivory. It's always about the feeling. I'm just suggesting that differenyt people get different feelings when Xiom and other manufacturers carve up beautiful and old trees so they can charge extra money for a blade. Give credit to some manufacturers for understanding that not everyone gets that magical feeling when imagining that magnificent tree being carved up.

Curious - how many Hinoki blades have you played with? Does Hinoki quality have nothing to do with age? And if it is true that higher quality hinoki makes the blades feel better, why is the feeling being compared to that of people who kill elephants for ivory?

UpSideDownCarl
12-03-2017, 06:13 PM
Yeah. I think the continual reverting to the issue of the destruction of trees, old trees and rainforests seems to be a bit out of place.

If that person wanted to start a thread about the logging industry and the way different kinds of woods used in table tennis blades are farmed and harvested, by all means, have fun with that. But if this thread is technically about playing characteristics of a Hinoki blade or top ply, and someone keeps reverting to the subject of the age of the trees without even being able to list the specifics of the Hinoki industry....well, that is actually called Internet Trolling.

Feel free to make a thread on logging practices that contains specifics on how the manufacture of table tennis blades effect the eco system. Which woods are more eco friendly. Which are not. Do your research and present your findings.

But, if the conversation keeps going around in a circle like this:

1- Hinoki feels great when you spin.

2- they are using 250 year old trees as a marketing scheme shame on them for killing the rain forest.

3- Hinoki feels great/ No I don’t like Hinoki.

4- save the trees.

5- Hinoki feels great/ Not to me.

6- The people who like Hinoki are just like the people who kill elephants for ivory.

Etc,

Then I may decide to use my delete button.

So, please stop the trolling. And everyone else: please resist the urge to feed the trolls. [emoji2] No more in this thread about deforestation in the Amazon. [emoji2]


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

suds79
12-04-2017, 01:07 PM
How'd this thread get this much traction?

Oh well. Continue.

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/cache.php?img=https%3A%2F%2Fi2.wp.com%2Fmemecollection.net%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F03%2Fjimmy-fallon-eating-popcorn-gif1.gif

Der_Echte
12-04-2017, 11:00 PM
Suds, it is the fault of illuminati GOON squad making you feel the urge to jump off the Brooklyn bridge for joy.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

bobpuls
12-05-2017, 03:14 AM
And with this bombshell we can finish this discussion...

http://youtu.be/8YslIQvRH4w

Astorix
12-05-2017, 12:05 PM
I am curious about the Nittaku Miyabi, a single ply Hinoki 9mm thick, availabe with Shakehand grip FL.
some Hinoki experts here are having knowledge about that Blade?
does it matter that much if the blade is 9 or 10 mm thick? The thinner the more flex and the better for spinning right?
and should one be conserned it could be too fragile?

UpSideDownCarl
12-05-2017, 01:03 PM
Okay. I deleted a bunch of posts. The posts I deleted, most of them are quoted in the new thread I created called "Save the Rainforest".

If someone else had wanted to create the thread, like the guy who kept posting, I guess he would have.

But any comments on farming of Hinoki trees or killing old trees, that appear in this thread will be deleted. That subject now has its own thread.

Thanks. :)

UpSideDownCarl
12-05-2017, 04:09 PM
And with this bombshell we can finish this discussion...

http://youtu.be/8YslIQvRH4w

bobpuls, this is priceless.

Interesting how this is not being viewed as good from the perspective of reducing population in a country that has long suffered from overpopulation.


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bobpuls
12-05-2017, 04:54 PM
bobpuls, this is priceless.

Interesting how this is not being viewed as good from the perspective of reducing population in a country that has long suffered from overpopulation.


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy
Yes this is a different (and interesting) point of view ......

langel
12-05-2017, 05:35 PM
bobpuls, this is priceless.

Interesting how this is not being viewed as good from the perspective of reducing population in a country that has long suffered from overpopulation.

Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

So you may start a thread "Hiroshima&Nagasaki" ?

lasta
03-20-2019, 09:00 AM
Okay. I am going to ignore the “Save the Rainforest” discussion and note that I am glad it is progressing towards being civil. [emoji2]

But I am going to say something about Hinoki and it’s playing characteristics.

Everyone has different feeling in their hands. And everyone has different preferences for what they like.

I can see how certain styles and ways of playing could cause some to miss what makes Hinoki special. I really can.

Particularly for drive looping, you could be better off with any number of other kinds of wood. And Hinoki is not going to have that crisp kind of snap or that deeper crunch that some woods have.

But if your play style and your hand feeling fit with what Hinoki does well, it can feel very special and kind of magical.

So I get the guys who feel Hinoki is nothing special and where they are coming from.

But if someone does feel those things a good Hinoki blade is really good for, you will just get it and it will feel MAGICAL. [emoji2]

You may not feel it or like Hinoki. But that does not mean that someone else is not feeling what they actually ARE FEELING.

Hinoki is not for everyone. But if you get it, it is kind of like you are an Illuminati. [emoji2]

And I am not sure there is much to discuss on that. So, when Suga D said it was a “SPINNER’s THANG”, there was a nod and a wink to the other Illuminati. But....maybe.....not everyone can read those hieroglyphics. [emoji2]


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

Hi, please forgive me for digging up an old thread. I have no intention of feeding trolls but do have a genuine interest in blade construction, especially regarding how a blade feels.

I've been reading about hinoki/cypress over the past feel days and every post that mentions 1-ply hinokis descend into: special, unique, magical, good feeling. But, there is almost no objective description of "what" the "feel" is. You started the thread with adjectives such as "crisp kind of snap or that deeper crunch that some woods have", these descriptions tell a lot about the "what". But even you followed that up with unique and magical.

Can you please describe the physical and playing characteristics of single ply hinokis in more detail? Ie stiffness, hardness, density, low impact/high impact speed (linear/springy, bouncy "early access" and dampened high-impact, or slow low impact but "reinforced" high-impact), low impact feel (soft/hard, sharp/dull, crisp/mushy?), high impact feel (dense/hollow, captive/repulsive), sound (tick/tock, crack/click, I know this is rubber dependent, but in general), off-center impact feedback etc. I have assumptions, but better to hear from someone who can compare to another blade directly.

I would just buy one to find out, but I seem to buy more blades than I actually play TT, have a big shipment incoming and quota is already up. Super-thick 1 ply is a gap in my understanding.

Thanks,

Suga D
03-20-2019, 09:06 PM
To me it feels soft and hard at the same time and it somehow feels as if the ball sticks to the blade for a moment. Maybe that is what people call 'magical'.

But how do you describe feelings? Hard to find the right words.
I guess there is a reason why people say you have to try it and feel it for yourself.

UpSideDownCarl
03-21-2019, 12:34 PM
To me it feels soft and hard at the same time and it somehow feels as if the ball sticks to the blade for a moment. Maybe that is what people call 'magical'.

But how do you describe feelings? Hard to find the right words.
I guess there is a reason why people say you have to try it and feel it for yourself.

Yeah, also, Hinoki is a wood where a blade with all Hinoki will not have one speed. It will have a range of speeds. It will be slow on certain shots and much faster on other shots.

And, lasta, the thing about Hinoki is that, if you make direct contact (drive contact) it does not feel special. If you make tangential contact (brush or loop contact) it grabs the ball harder than anything else.

What it feels like when it does that is very hard to define and you really do simply have to feel it.

But you should know, those one ply Hinoki blades, especially the good ones, are pretty expensive and VERY EASY TO BREAK. They are easy to break because they are ONE PLY. They split down the grain of the wood.


Can you please describe the physical and playing characteristics of single ply hinokis in more detail?

Sorry. But these blades, only some can feel what they do. And you have to try them to see. Some people feel a boring dish rag when they try Hinoki. Others feel something that there really aren't words to describe it.

Borrow a blade that is Hinoki from someone at a club who has a Hinoki blade and try it. If it feels like Plain Jane, Hinoki is not for you. If you go, "Oh my, this feels amazing," then you will get how that grab and hold and how the ball propels out of the blade with a ton of spin and speed, you will get what that feels like. But I don't have words for it.

And the words crisp and crunch were not about Hinoki. They were about other woods that are easier to put words to how they feel. :)

lasta
03-21-2019, 12:45 PM
Thanks Carl,

I'm actually on the fence about 1 plies. Tried the Septear (7-ply hinoki) and I like the high-impact density, but feels like the speed aspect is hard to "engage" on certain shots (ie inflection point is pushed back), too slow on the over-the-table play.

Would a much thicker 1 ply amplify this aspect (ie too soft/slow on low impact)? or would the excessive thickness bring the overall speed to a whole new level?

I'm a short-pips player if that makes a difference, usually prefer hard and dense blades, but always curious.

lasta
03-21-2019, 12:52 PM
BTW about the "grab and hold", would you compare that feel to thick 5 ply balsa/kiri blades? Ie very "captive" or maybe even hollow on impact. Personally, I hate that, but very thick, even soft mono-materials should provide a lot of "density" on hard shots. At what effort would you say the dense feel is achieved, and on other shots, does it feel mushy?

UpSideDownCarl
03-21-2019, 01:17 PM
Hinoki is great for looping. For tangential contact. For brushing. The reason is how it grabs the ball.

I personally don't feel it is very good for flat hitting. It is slower and less responsive on direct contact.

If you are using short pips, you are not brushing, you are not looping, you are not making tangential contact. I think you would be better with woods like Koto, Walnut, Rosewood, Ebony....any hard top ply. Those woods will also help you differentiate between the shots you intend to be completely flat (low spin) and the ones where you spin some.

Old school Chinese and Korean players did use SP with Hinoki. But it was not necessarily because it made sense. It was what they thought the biggest, most powerful gun was back then. Now there are better tools.

See if you can find someone with an Ebenholz and try that out. I think that will be much more useful to your SP than Hinoki.

lasta
03-21-2019, 01:26 PM
Thanks Carl, very informative exchange, and you just saved me enough money to buy 3 more blades :rolleyes:.

I have tried the Ebenholz, and own a Gatien Absolum. These are great for crisp blocks, but the contrast of hard outer+softer core gives the impression of hollowness/softness and loss of power on high impact. Still prefer multi-ply single materials for the linear and dense feel.

Kaizoku
05-03-2019, 06:22 PM
I got a question. Have you tried treiber z or treiber fo (or Fi) offensive
What blade would you consider closest to Andro treiber z? And how would the three others compare? You can also measure material wise other than experience of course.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Konrad Bak
05-03-2019, 06:49 PM
Cornilleau hinotec is great for short pips. Z is one of a kind but throw is low and blade is hard with soft feeling + fast and stiff

Kaizoku
05-03-2019, 08:08 PM
Cornilleau hinotec is great for short pips. Z is one of a kind but throw is low and blade is hard with soft feeling + fast and stiffYou're saying there is not made any similar blades to treiber z? I mean andro treiber fo of is an 'upgrade' with just a new composite material. (that made the blade slightly faster than treiber z)

But surely blades with hinoki and two composite veneers should be able compare to treiber z in playing characteristics. Aye?
For it to be one of a kind it has to be a unique unused composition of materials.

I have also tried nittaku miyabi btw. I found it very fascinating. But the smaller sweetspot and difference in playing characteristics was not 'good' enough for me to consider going for a hinoki one ply instead of a hinoki 5+2 ply with composite material. Also a bit slower than my taste.
But then again. That's besides my question xD

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Suga D
05-03-2019, 10:09 PM
You're saying there is not made any similar blades to treiber z? I mean andro treiber fo of is an 'upgrade' with just a new composite material. (that made the blade slightly faster than treiber z)

But surely blades with hinoki and two composite veneers should be able compare to treiber z in playing characteristics. Aye?
For it to be one of a kind it has to be a unique unused composition of materials.

I have also tried nittaku miyabi btw. I found it very fascinating. But the smaller sweetspot and difference in playing characteristics was not 'good' enough for me to consider going for a hinoki one ply instead of a hinoki 5+2 ply with composite material. Also a bit slower than my taste.
But then again. That's besides my question xD

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

I'm not sure, but as far as I've been informed the BTY Garaydia is also built with Hinoki outer plies. I'm not sure if the core is the same as Treiber Z and is comparable though.
But maybe someone on the forum has been using both blades and can elaborate on that.

Konrad Bak
05-04-2019, 12:54 PM
first, people think that Treiber Z has zylon/ zylon carbon nah. Its Kevlar. People who thinks its only kevlar they dont have all rights. Its something like woven of Kevlar and something that looks similiar to Butterfly's arylate.
there is difference in structure on lookbook
https://cdn.andro.de/andro_workbook_2017_2018_EN/#22
the difference between Treiber Z and all hinoki + carbon blade is propably throw and feeling, there is no vibration on Z version.
If you watch review CO I CI- the throw is high

Kaizoku
05-05-2019, 12:30 AM
first, people think that Treiber Z has zylon/ zylon carbon nah. Its Kevlar. People who thinks its only kevlar they dont have all rights. Its something like woven of Kevlar and something that looks similiar to Butterfly's arylate.
there is difference in structure on lookbook
https://cdn.andro.de/andro_workbook_2017_2018_EN/#22
the difference between Treiber Z and all hinoki + carbon blade is propably throw and feeling, there is no vibration on Z version.
If you watch review CO I CI- the throw is high

Interesting insight. But holdup, Andro Treiber Co (composite next to top layer) and Ci (composite next to core) has higher throw than Treiber Fo and Fi?
Any idea what the top ply is for CO/CI?
I know Fo/Fi is hinoki. but Co/ci does not seem like hinoki. maybe limba idk.
in this print screen, http://prntscr.com/nkic2k according to Andro, Ci/co is better for a tempo game while Andro fi/fo is better for breaking tempo.
Whereas, Fi/fo has TXL fiber, Ci/co has Kevlar Carbon. as you mentioned.
this is the newest workbook: https://cdn.andro.de/andro_workbook_2018_2019_EN/#22

Edit:

Btw, would anyone have a comperance between the Nexy Hinoki blades and the Andro Treiber series?
Would be appreciated. :D

Composition for Andro blades are clearified btw:
Andro Treiber Z: Hinoki - Z fibre- Ayous - Kiri - ayous - z fibre - Hinoki
Andro Treiber FI: Hinoki - Ayous - TXL Fibre - Kiri - TXL - Ayous - Hinoki
Andro treiber Fo: Hinoki - TXL fibre - Ayous - Kiri - ayous - TXL fibre - Hinoki

I also had a curious idea regarding combining Glass fibre with this composition instead of the other fibres.
I'd imagine it would be a really good feeling blade with more spin potential but slightly less speed?
- actually Xiom Zetro quad seemed to have Glass fibre according to tt blades database. But also 2 carbon layers which seems like overkill... no?

RodneyOlson
05-22-2019, 09:47 AM
Study study and more study!

7sagittarius7
06-14-2019, 01:41 PM
Here is a very short video comparing weight and speed of three of my blades with hinoki outer ply and composite material: XIOM Vega Tour, Nittaku Septear Feel and Darker Esteem.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2KEql5b72E

langel
06-14-2019, 02:18 PM
Here is a very short video comparing weight and speed of three of my blades with hinoki outer ply and composite material: XIOM Vega Tour, Nittaku Septear Feel and Darker Esteem.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2KEql5b72E


There is something very wrong with the test - go to 0:20 and slow down the play back to 0.25.
Its very well visible that the hand in the middle frops the ball Earlier, but somehow the ball is falling much slower.
Anyway my personal understanding is that the simple drop test tells absolutely nothing.

Kaizoku
06-16-2019, 03:26 PM
There is something very wrong with the test - go to 0:20 and slow down the play back to 0.25.
Its very well visible that the hand in the middle frops the ball Earlier, but somehow the ball is falling much slower.
Anyway my personal understanding is that the simple drop test tells absolutely nothing.

Well, it does actually indicate Speed: Darker Esteem>Septear feel>Vega tour
But other than that, not much no.

Konrad Bak
06-16-2019, 04:28 PM
I thought about treiber fo not koto version

Kaizoku
07-01-2019, 09:20 PM
Has anyone tried both Andro Treiber Z (or fo!) and the new Xiom ZX3 ? I tried looking for the "new vega tour" so I presume that's it. I'm wondering if it felt different and how different, majorly about speed and throw? As I don't really trust ttdb with few reviews and few rating numbers inbetween... (on ZX3 that is)

langel
07-02-2019, 06:00 AM
Has anyone tried both Andro Treiber Z (or fo!) and the new Xiom ZX3 ? I tried looking for the "new vega tour" so I presume that's it. I'm wondering if it felt different and how different, majorly about speed and throw? As I don't really trust ttdb with few reviews and few rating numbers inbetween... (on ZX3 that is)

Can't speak about Andro.

I would not say that ZX3 is the new Vega Tour. They look similar, but are not and pplay different with different feel.
Vega Tour is with Katsura core, ZX3 is with Kiri core. ZX3 is a bit faster, stiffer, crisper. Vega Tour has a better feel, its more "stable", better control and more spin.
Anyway personal feeling will depend on many factors.