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--Furry--
09-30-2013, 04:13 PM
Hey guys !
I don't know how to perform a good effective serve !
Can someone give me some tips !

Thanks !

geotjakra
09-30-2013, 04:52 PM
I find this video to be pretty good in making you understand serving and receiving serves better:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyK7gHPbkcA

ahtu
10-02-2013, 04:23 AM
A good effective serve is a deception serve. You need to use same motion and can serve "no spin" and "under spin" or top spin.. side spin... whether it is no spin, under spin, top spin, it depend on the ball contact point with the racket and the motion of your racket.
it is not easy... you can look at mirror and start design your own set of serving....

You have to design a serve that confuse your opponent so that they don't know what you are serving....
If you watch Ma Long serve tutorial on youtube, you will find that when he serve a under spin his racket end with side top spin look....

Der_Echte
10-03-2013, 02:26 AM
You got some learning ahead of you and if you improve in this area, you will be on your way to a jump in level. Go practice.

Whatever you do for a serve, have a plan to control the opponent receive and have a plan to deal with the 3rd ball.

UpSideDownCarl
10-04-2013, 02:02 PM
I find this video to be pretty good in making you understand serving and receiving serves better:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyK7gHPbkcA

This youtube video is just the advertisement for a video that you would buy. geotjakra, do have the whole video? Are you saying the actual video you would buy is a good video? Or are you saying that short video with Brian Pace talking about why his serve video is good, is good enough in itself?

geotjakra
10-04-2013, 06:48 PM
I find the short video helpful enough. I don't own his actual video. I agree with Ahtu as well, deception is key in serving. And one of the best for deceptive serve is the pendulum serve in my opinion. Depending where and when you made contact with the ball, you can create an under spin, no spin and top spin, side spin serves while all looking like the same hand movement :)

UpSideDownCarl
10-04-2013, 06:52 PM
Tips for serving: use a lot of wrist, not too much arm. Develop a few different serves where you can use the same motion and get underspin, sidespin, topspin and dead with the same motion: for example, the pendulum and reverse pendulum serves. If you can do that with those two, you have six serves that look like two serves. Hook serves are very effective as well because it takes such a small motion to generate all that spin and it is very easy to change from under, side, top, dead, and it is also easy to keep it so the opponent only sees the racket right before contact so that the spin is harder to read off the contact. So, if you could do Pendulum, Reverse Pendulum and Hook serves, that is 12 serves that look like 3 serves.

Deception is more important in serving than spin although both are important. But, all that being said, very short, very low dead ball serves are really good because, it is hard for the opponent to do anything to them that would cause you real problems, so those serves are great for setting up your third ball.

In the end, as you are playing better opponents, it is more important to use your serves to set up your third ball than anything else.

UpSideDownCarl
10-05-2013, 01:46 AM
I find the short video helpful enough. I don't own his actual video.

Interesting. He does not really show much of anything.

Here, here is the master serving. I think this video is pretty valuable.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PD02s8uTSzw

Here is another:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldheZbxGWlQ

The second video he explains some of what he might do in the serves.

Dan
10-05-2013, 11:40 AM
I'm on my phone, ill make a more detailed post later but something that really pushed me forward in the serving department was really focussing on my finger and thumb during the contact of the ball. Really use a lot of wrist but pressing the bat lightly with your finger and thumb to brush the ball.

Another tip is simply practice. Lots of players tend to find their own service action or serving techniques practising on their own. Nice bucket of balls and serve away :)

The second video in Carl's post is great I learned a lot from that video demonstration. Good luck!

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy

UpSideDownCarl
10-06-2013, 03:46 AM
I'm on my phone, ill make a more detailed post later but something that really pushed me forward in the serving department was really focussing on my finger and thumb during the contact of the ball. Really use a lot of wrist but pressing the bat lightly with your finger and thumb to brush the ball.

Another tip is simply practice. Lots of players tend to find their own service action or serving techniques practising on their own. Nice bucket of balls and serve away :)

The second video in Carl's post is great I learned a lot from that video demonstration. Good luck!

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy

That point about the pressure from the finger and the thumb is priceless. That really helps you get more spin. You do that in your forehand and backhand loops too and you will get more spin there as well. :)

Also, giving credit where credit is due, I first saw that second video of Werner Schlager's as a result of a post from you, Dan. :)

And the tips he gives about how to change the spin are top notch.

Dan
10-06-2013, 02:38 PM
That point about the pressure from the finger and the thumb is priceless. That really helps you get more spin. You do that in your forehand and backhand loops too and you will get more spin there as well. :)

Also, giving credit where credit is due, I first saw that second video of Werner Schlager's as a result of a post from you, Dan. :)

And the tips he gives about how to change the spin are top notch.

Yeah the finger and thumb is perfect, I might just make a youtube video about this. I think it could be very handy. Haha yeah I did post it originally, but you reminded me hehe :)

I want Werner to do more serving videos, would be class!

Tony's Table Tennis
10-08-2013, 08:58 AM
Tip for serving.

Serve 1000 balls a day.
Thats how many greats did it, and thats how I was taught too.

There is already so many great feedback above, as well as videos that you can see.
Do it times 1000 now

Kenta Cipriano
10-08-2013, 11:08 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afx_9klfvEI

Hope it helped!

Good luck

Fab
12-13-2013, 03:11 PM
Practising a service is one of the most important and difficult things in table tennis.

It's no use just to practise a serve when you don't know what to do and focus on.

So 3 basics (in my opinion) that must be considered when serving:

- hit the ball as low as possible (that's what the guy in the video also said)
- hit the ball close to the table (more distance makes the service unsafe)
- for short service place the ball close to the net on your side / for long service place the ball close to the baseline on your side

Then in the video it is said to use all parts of the body (legs, hips, arm, shoulder, wrist etc.) ... in my opinion this is the worst you can do!
The more parts of your body you use the more pars you have to control.
The secret of a good serve is that you can play exactly the same movement and a safe movement.

That's why I recommend to start as simple as possible and then, when the serve is safe, add more parts to the serve.


Example: Short service with backspin.

- Angle of the racket: horizontal to the table = "flat" - most players have problems with this. Their angle is too steep. To generate a lot of backspin you must hit the ball as tangential as possible.

- Movement of the racket: the movement is from back forward. Try to stay with your racket on the same level during the serve (many players have the bad habit to go up with their racket when they throw up the ball)

- Parts of the body to use during the serve: First only with forearm. Try to keep everything else fixed, even the wrist. You can generate a lot of backspin only with moving your forearm if you have the right angle and speed (if you move too slow, you cannot generate enough spin). When you feel that you hit the bal tangential and get safe with the forearm in your serve, then add the wrist.

- Where do I hit the ball: South Pole of the ball.

How to control the quality of the serve?
With the serve in the example it is easy. If the ball jumps 2-3 times or comes even back to the net on the other side of the table then you have a good backspin serve. You can also have a look at the stamp of the ball. If you can see the stamp clear, there is not much spin on the ball. If you cannot really see the stamp anymore, you have generated a lot of spin ;-)


PS: The serves he shows in the video above are ... not good quality.

JustAlt
12-16-2013, 06:42 AM
Then in the video it is said to use all parts of the body (legs, hips, arm, shoulder, wrist etc.) ... in my opinion this is the worst you can do!
The more parts of your body you use the more pars you have to control.
The secret of a good serve is that you can play exactly the same movement and a safe movement.

That's why I recommend to start as simple as possible and then, when the serve is safe, add more parts to the serve.


I have to disagree with you on this one. Using the body is what gives you control when trying to get good spin because you don't need to swing your arm and wrist so aggressively since they are allready moving due to body rotation. It's the same as in every other stroke in table tennis; if the power comes from the bigger body parts - legs, waist - you get more control because bigger muscles are easier to control when you try to get max power-> max speed for your hand. This works with serving also and should be the first thing to learn in my opinion.


Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

Tony's Table Tennis
12-16-2013, 09:20 AM
Me demostrating some variation of underspin serves - unprepared: didn't even use my primary racket and haven't practice serves for over 10 years.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9Gmw15wy4c

Sali
12-16-2013, 10:51 AM
I have to disagree with you on this one. Using the body is what gives you control when trying to get good spin because you don't need to swing your arm and wrist so aggressively since they are allready moving due to body rotation. It's the same as in every other stroke in table tennis; if the power comes from the bigger body parts - legs, waist - you get more control because bigger muscles are easier to control when you try to get max power-> max speed for your hand. This works with serving also and should be the first thing to learn in my opinion.


Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

Actually I agree with Fab, at the beginning all you have to do is try to do same movement using your wrist and forearm. After that you can do all other things, but firt you need to be sure that your basic movement is correct.

JustAlt
12-16-2013, 11:15 AM
Actually I agree with Fab, at the beginning all you have to do is try to do same movement using your wrist and forearm. After that you can do all other things, but firt you need to be sure that your basic movement is correct.

What I'm trying to say is that using your body actually makes is simpler. At first you don't even need to separately use your arm and wrist at all if you don't want to. That is because as you may have noticed your arm is connected to your body and will move when you move your body. Just try it. Try serving without moving your arm and wrist separately at all and just rotate your body. The idea of this approach is to go from bigger and more easily controlled muscles to the smaller ones.
First use body, then arm, then wrist and fingers.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

Sali
12-16-2013, 02:47 PM
I know what you mean, but for me it is wrong. Your body should be stable during service. At the beginning I really focused on serves I had about 30 of them, I focused on cheating with my body. I was doing a lot of movements to diffuse my opponent. But after some time I realized that I cannot repeat exactly the same serve (especially during the match) and the spin was not enough. I think that everyone should start with the wrist to get the idea about spin and placement. After having 90% of effectiveness you can try doing other moves.
I just tried what you told and the spin is much weaker.
I know what you mean, but for me it is wrong. Your body should be stable during service. At the beginning I really focused on serves I had about 30 of them, I focused on cheating with my body. I was doing a lot of movements to diffuse my opponent. But after some time I realized that I cannot repeat exactly the same serve (especially during the match) and the spin was not enough. I think that everyone should start with the wrist to get the idea about spin and placement. After having 90% of effectiveness you can try doing other moves.
I just tried what you told and the spin is much weaker.

Tony's Table Tennis
12-16-2013, 04:32 PM
I think for starters, just focus on control and placement.

Control in terms of getting the ball where you want and it must be low when passing the net.
Placement is where you landing your first bounce and where you landing your second bounce.

Can do the above with gentle underspin service - why I said gentle is, only once the control aspect is reached, is the player able to add heavy topspin while still keeping control and placement.

I start my students with trying to get the ball to land just before the right side (server FH side net post) and get the second bounce to land just after the net - close to the edge of the table. In other words, its on the extreme BH side of a right handed receiver.
I would say - go for 100 of this, then go for one down the line, first bounce close to the net, and 2nd bounce just after the net, and do another 100.
So this is 200 serves x 5 for a night, and do this for 7 days straight.

Once you have 7 days straight, you can start adding in some heavier underspin and x 7 days
Then you can add left side spin - then x 7 days
Then you can add reverse side pin - then x 7 days.

After 1 Month, i'm sure your service will have improved.

Then you can do the long fast - cross court and down the line - 14 days
The above with side spin - 7 days
The above with reverse side spin - 7 days

So after 2 months, your long and short serves will be so much better.
Now once you figure out the control, placement, then you can start doing fake movements etc.

Remember, it is not to out spin your opponent but rather:
- Out smart your opponent
- Out place your opponent
- Out trick your opponent
ETC

Der_Echte
12-16-2013, 06:04 PM
Practicing serves is the least practiced thing players do besides practicing serve receive. That is almost 2/3 of the game right there!

ANYONE can practice serves as long as there is a table open somewhere. In Iraq, I could only manage to practice 3 minutes a day, since the cheepo table was in the trailer where everyone calls back home, but those 3 minutes a day 3x a week helped me instantly improve one full level without any other practice.

Everyone has pretty much stated the objectives of serving and HOW to do it, but we as players really never seek out the chance to practice.

Heck, even if you are sitting down WAITING for a table, you can practice slicing under the ball to practice impact, timing, and feel. Simply toss ball up, slice under, and make ball come back to you on the floor. Repeat, as long as you can do it without making ball go into someone's match!

JustAlt
12-16-2013, 07:16 PM
I know what you mean, but for me it is wrong. Your body should be stable during service. At the beginning I really focused on serves I had about 30 of them, I focused on cheating with my body. I was doing a lot of movements to diffuse my opponent. But after some time I realized that I cannot repeat exactly the same serve (especially during the match) and the spin was not enough. I think that everyone should start with the wrist to get the idea about spin and placement. After having 90% of effectiveness you can try doing other moves.
I just tried what you told and the spin is much weaker.

Of course the spin is weaker if you only use body rotation vs body, arm and wrist. But you can also try how much spin can you get if you hold your body and arm totally still and just use your wrist to get spin. I bet the spin will be even weaker than with only body rotation. In the end a good service needs all of them. Every pro player uses body rotation when serving as well as in other strokes. Liu Guoliang himself said that he uses lots of body rotation during service to get good control and spin.

Also I don't understand but you mean by having your body stable when serving. I guess rather than stable you mean stationary. By holding your body still you get less spin and it is also slower getting into ready position after service. Using body rotation when serving doesn't mean your body isn't stable and controlled.


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Tony's Table Tennis
12-16-2013, 09:48 PM
Practicing serves is the least practiced thing players do besides practicing serve receive. That is almost 2/3 of the game right there!


Yeah, so agree here, and this seems to be the common problem/mistake in 80% of the places.

I walked into the South African TT circle, and I see 2 players doing FH to FH top spin - far away from the table.
It was so beautiful, the top spin, and later with heavy side spin. Going on for like 20 hits.
Great show, very beautiful, big smiles on every ones faces.

The moment they go overseas. The rally ends within 5 hits...... I'm not suprised.
When the rally is long, our players don't have the spin and power to keep those rallies long.
The game plan should if been finishing the point as early as possible, as the better player will get more advantage once the rally is longer!

Conclusion.
They train for this FH to FH top spin rally, which is like going to be 2 points (at most) in a 11 point game.
But left out the important thigns of service, service receive, 3rd ball, 4th ball - all at the table play - which is over 80% of the game.

So they use 80% of the time to practice something that is less than 20% of the points in a real live match.
Really clever.....

So when I took over the coaching role for my 2 main players last year. I only work on at the table technique, short game, and at the table attacks.
Within 5 weeks, one defeated the number 1 seed, the other defeated the number 2 seed. Sadly, it wasn't both my students in the final, but ended with 2nd and 3rd place for U17 Girls Single in South Africa. Both they highest achievement in they young career to date, both made the junior national team, and both was members of the bronze winner team in the African U21 section.

I did no fancy FH to FH with them at all!
Speaking about it, they both don't know how to serve. I doubt they have been practice services of min 1 hour a day, every day a week (at home) as I instructed. I'm going to make them run laps when training sesson starts again :)

Der_Echte
12-17-2013, 12:38 PM
Tony, we amatures do that (Practice those sexy Fh to Fh physics-bending counter rallies) because we are undisciplined, are misguided in goals, do not see the big picture, have egos, are bored, want to have fun, etc... We can list our excuses. Yes, we are not pros, and we gotta have some fun sometimes, because if TT wasn't fun, we wouldn't be playing it, since we do not make a living from it.

Still, many of us in the Amature ranks or especially the hobby ranks... we all state that we want to improve hugely. Many of us get coaching if we can and that is great. Yet, we still waste a lot of time. Look at Korea, a great TT nation with drive and discipline, yet 99% + of their amature players... of the ones who get lessons, next to NO ONE practices the short receive game on their own, only the top Div 1 players or above! You see SOME, maybe 5%, practice serves on their own regularly.

When I went to Korea, I already had tricky serves that worked two levels above my playing level. You could say I was getting by on serves, attacks, and staying in the point on receive. Basically, I was Dr Jeckle and Hyde... I was aggressive on serve and high percentage win, and passive enough on receive until opponent gives me a chance. The rest of my game was a level or two below my level. When lessons improved my overall game and tactics, I naturally got better. Serves were a great foundation that fortunately, became a good habit before I exploded in growth.

Why we spend OVER 80% of our useable training time on something we rarely use at our level... YES, loop to loop rallies are not very common even at USATT 2000 level! Maybe you see one or two of those a game and they are not really that long... so why we do that? Comes down to our objectives in the sport. I guess a lot of us either desire more to have fun or do not realize the effects of what we do.

Tony's Table Tennis
12-17-2013, 01:27 PM
I think mis-inform if more likely here.

The kids see the older players do that 80% of the time, so the kids copy.

I still remember a Heilongjiang prov coach who had a 1 year stint there saying.
In China we done the BH flick for 10 years.
The world started to do it 5 years ago.
In South Africa, you guys don't even know what it is.

I just burst out laughing lol. I guess the local players got offended by my laugh, but that is the truth :)

BTW, the circle I am in here is more national players, so maybe it is different to your "basement" fun only players etc.

Fab
01-23-2014, 11:28 AM
I have to disagree with you on this one. Using the body is what gives you control when trying to get good spin because you don't need to swing your arm and wrist so aggressively since they are allready moving due to body rotation. It's the same as in every other stroke in table tennis; if the power comes from the bigger body parts - legs, waist - you get more control because bigger muscles are easier to control when you try to get max power-> max speed for your hand. This works with serving also and should be the first thing to learn in my opinion.


Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk


I agree with you for any stroke in table tennis, but not for the service!
Any stroke will become safe and more controllable if you use your body as the basic of the service.

The reason why I recommend to use arm and wrist only for service is that most players have difficulties with controlling their body during the service. They move their body, yes, but not in the right direction, with unnecessary movements, they change height of their body and distance to the table.
And this can be one of the reasons why they fail to serve constantly and safely.

If you only use arm it is very easy to serve, because you only need to focus on one part of the body. Same with the wrist but this is more difficult to control.
By the way, according to kinetic energy it is easier to transfer energy from arm and wrist to the ball than from the whole body.

The spin on the ball depends on two things: speed of the stroke and angle of the racket. You can also add direction of the movement but this determines more the kind of spin than the quality of the spin.

Of course a Chinese national player uses his body in the serve, but he is practising services during his whole table tennis life. They can change the length of the service just with their bodies. But that does not mean that it would be easy. Regarding to my experience people learn an easy serve when focusing on the main parts of the service (wrist and arm) and forget the other things.

Der_Echte
01-23-2014, 06:48 PM
This last post by Fab is a dig. He dug through Dracula's native soil to bring this thread back up.

Some dig posts are spam and some are not. Some are Golden.

This post by Fab is good on a lot of levels, especially reminding us about serving, something we amatures pay too little attention to at all.

BTW<<< Fab ought to listed as a verified pro member, maybe he'll drop some moar nuggets like this our way as well...

Der_Echte
01-23-2014, 06:49 PM
There are prolly a dozen threads in the forum that are worthy of periodic "digging" that new forget the important content.

TTFrenzy
01-23-2014, 08:35 PM
Yeap great insight about practicing serves by Fab. LGL used his whole body to serve, but Waldner Persson Schlager Ma lin were all excellent servers yet they just use only the forearm and wrist snap. Eventually serving is mostly a matter of personal preference and imagination, practicing serves should be about experimenting most of the time than trying to execute perfectly the same serves all the time

abhay
01-24-2014, 06:04 AM
Interesting discussion. Service lets you control the game by giving you an opportunity to place the ball where you want and prep up for the 3rd attack. More difficult the serve , more difficult will be the return. Keeping the serve short and simple and getting back to your position after the serve , sets the direction how you will the set the rally.

mmmm6279
03-30-2014, 06:23 PM
Interesting discussion. So many points to learn !!

Raptor
03-30-2014, 06:31 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ha5cA_7UqM


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hwQSa-4FDk


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2QtRfp35u0


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9qfkHbQYeI

SpinQuark
03-31-2014, 12:45 AM
This video looks really interesting. However it needs someone to translate to english as a voice over.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BYLGcAhm1Y

I find the difficult thing with serving is that other players gradually get your serves worked out so you constantly find yourself wanting to develop new ones to have something new and surprising for them. I am also learning that it is increasingly difficult to win points against better players with the service itself, it becomes more a question of working out what type of second ball you are likely to get so you can gain advantage from that when you play the third ball.