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TableTennisDaily
06-25-2014, 12:33 PM
TableTennisDaily's @Dan and @Tom had the fantastic opportunity to review Stiga's latest ITTF Approved Plastic/Poly ball.

There has been a lot of discussion around the world and on the TableTennisDaily website recently in regards to how this new ball will effect table tennis players and the sport. This review tries to cover that looking at a variety of characteristics of the new ball in comparison to the celluloid ball, how it performs and more. The review looks at various techniques and a range of shots used in today's modern game of table tennis

Thanks to STIGA, (https://www.facebook.com/stigatabletennis) Daniel Ives, Tom Maynard, and Kingfisher Table Tennis Club in the making of this review.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0-ogajfDqI

Written Review:

- The Stiga poly ball has a seam and weighs 2.8g
- The ball seemed very durable and did not break throughout
- Not much sound difference between the poly and celluloid ball
- Timing was altered, this is because the poly ball had a slight higher bounce, whereas the celluloid ball came through more
- We had to play our strokes more upwards to get similar arc
- An overall reduction in spin and speed however the spin was impressively more than expected as seen in the footage
- We believe rallies will be longer as it felt you had to really commit to produce a winning shot. We feel future tactics will be based around consistency and placement to win the point.
- Powerful players may have an advantage with this ball, and we feel physical fitness and strength will play an important role
- Service and receive area of the game could become a lot easier due to the less amount of spin produced on the ball

We hope you enjoyed this review, let us know what you think by posting below guys. have you tried the new poly ball? What challenges do you think players will face if any and how do you think it will change our sport.

Check out more TableTennisDaily Equipment Reviews here. (http://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/forum/forumdisplay.php?289-TTD-Equipment-Reviews)

agold
06-25-2014, 12:59 PM
Thanks so much for the review! Chinese rubbers may go out of style because you have to go up so much, meaning that the sponge might need to bounce more. Maybe Adidas P7 would suit the new ball very well. I liked when Tom switched hands there in the match :)

TTHopeful
06-25-2014, 01:28 PM
As always a great review TTD. I wonder if there will be a certain type of rubber that will be best suited for the new ball. It looks like you can get a good amount of topspin against backspin balls. We still yet to know how this ball will be for against defenders. Will it suit defenders?

aldob
06-25-2014, 01:40 PM
Nice review! Hopefully the Stiga ball and the other new poly balls of other brands are much like each other.

EazyWeazyTT
06-25-2014, 01:49 PM
Thanks for the great review. I believe those differences between poly and zelluloid are easy to adept, but will create a greater game in terms of ralleys.
Im exited to play that ball by myself.
I actually like that you, as you said, need a slight better fitness to adept to the slower and non-spinnier ball!
Can´t wait to see the Airoc review.

elrigo99
06-25-2014, 02:38 PM
Thank you! Have you tried Airoc rubber too?

Alborz
06-25-2014, 03:45 PM
Best review on poly ball i have ever seen ever! Perfect!

jimmybeckers
06-25-2014, 04:37 PM
Great review!!

what about the durability of the ball?

thx!

John18
06-25-2014, 06:03 PM
Thank you for this great review !
I wonder how the new ball will affect the penholders. I hope they won't be too affected by it.

Gavin Rumgay
06-25-2014, 10:00 PM
Very interesting footage! You lads are hitting the ball well! Future England Team?!! #biggerthighsneeded

Tinykin
06-25-2014, 10:20 PM
I am surprised that the balls weighed the same.

Sali
06-26-2014, 12:19 PM
I have a question, because one thing is not strange in from my point of view. At the beginning of the test Dan showed by droping both balls down that the new ball has less bounce then the old one. Next during the test Dan said it was more difficult to play a good topspin with a new ball. When I watched the video it seems that because of lower bounce and less speed the ball drops down quicker then you expect and you need to go lower. While in the end you said that new ball has a higher bounce.
Can you explain it further?
Thanks

elrigo99
06-26-2014, 12:34 PM
Actually while I played with it I had the impression that it travelled faster and so had a higher bounce, maybe I was wrong

NDY
06-26-2014, 06:19 PM
I played with it as well (for 10 mins) and what I can tell is that serves have less spin and pop up higher resulting in easy flip-kills.Other than that I did notice a minor change in speed,as mid distance rallies seemed slower.(But only a bit slower).

roger
06-26-2014, 06:50 PM
Thanks for the review.

Would you please tell us the equipment that have been used?

igorponger
06-26-2014, 07:02 PM
Talking about tt materials is just a useless speech unless contains a decent set of numbers. yes.

--------
Through being a graduated engineer. I only trust the numbers, I love the numbers.

Human's body natural senses are fairly deceptive. No two man will feel alike, you know.

One man's softish feeling of the ball is another man's hard feeling. So is the ball speed, spin, bounce, etc.

Hence, my first and foremost necessity when reading all the reviews on table tennis materials is the exact numbers from laboratory material tests.
Numbers and numbers only will tell you whole of truth.

So far, I have only got a bulk of waterish, blank words about the plastic balls. Multitude of meaningless and obscure phrases, no numbers.


BALLS MEASUREMENTS I'm LOOKING FOR.

Diameter to 0,01 mm
Mass to 0.01 g
Geometrical Hardness (standard testing machine) to 0.01 mm.

Please, take care to provide for those numbers in your reporting of the plastic balls.

Thanks.
Igor NOVICK

Building Constructions & Materials proficient.

Dan
06-26-2014, 11:21 PM
Can´t wait to see the Airoc review.


Thank you! Have you tried Airoc rubber too?

Thanks guys! :)

We haven't tried the Airoc rubbers just yet. We hope in a few weeks we will have the review ready.

Dan
06-26-2014, 11:22 PM
Great review!!

what about the durability of the ball?

thx!

Thanks Jimmy, we found no problems with the durability. None of the balls broke during testing, I think we need to play with them longer to really find out. But all seemed perfectly fine. They felt harder than celluloid balls.

Butt Stallion
06-26-2014, 11:28 PM
Lol Dan is playing like Timo Boll, exactly the same stroke and spin and it evens looks the same, funny :D Timo Ball is one of the best european its a compliment ;)

Dan
06-26-2014, 11:29 PM
I have a question, because one thing is not strange in from my point of view. At the beginning of the test Dan showed by droping both balls down that the new ball has less bounce then the old one. Next during the test Dan said it was more difficult to play a good topspin with a new ball. When I watched the video it seems that because of lower bounce and less speed the ball drops down quicker then you expect and you need to go lower. While in the end you said that new ball has a higher bounce.
Can you explain it further?
Thanks

Good point, I found it quite difficult explaining this. Basically, the celluloid ball because it was faster it seem to shoot through the table more, and the spin kicked of the surface more forward. However when the poly ball bounced, because it was slower it seemed to land and not come through quickly giving an effect that it bounced higher.

Dan
06-26-2014, 11:30 PM
Lol Dan is playing like Timo Boll, exactly the same stroke and spin and it evens looks the same, funny :D Timo Ball is one of the best european its a compliment ;)

I wished! Haha lets not be silly now Butt Stallion! :D

harveyaquino
06-27-2014, 02:02 AM
Talking about tt materials is just a useless speech unless contains a decent set of numbers. yes.

--------
Through being a graduated engineer. I only trust the numbers, I love the numbers.

Human's body natural senses are fairly deceptive. No two man will feel alike, you know.

One man's softish feeling of the ball is another man's hard feeling. So is the ball speed, spin, bounce, etc.

Hence, my first and foremost necessity when reading all the reviews on table tennis materials is the exact numbers from laboratory material tests.
Numbers and numbers only will tell you whole of truth.

So far, I have only got a bulk of waterish, blank words about the plastic balls. Multitude of meaningless and obscure phrases, no numbers.


BALLS MEASUREMENTS I'm LOOKING FOR.

Diameter to 0,01 mm
Mass to 0.01 g
Geometrical Hardness (standard testing machine) to 0.01 mm.

Please, take care to provide for those numbers in your reporting of the plastic balls.

Thanks.
Igor NOVICK

Building Constructions & Materials proficient.

It is not entirely useless. When talking about TT materials, a player's experience with them is useful because it gives you an estimation of how a TT material plays. Of course different strokes, different folks.

But not all players can give specialized reviews of TT materials just like by the numbers as what you've been proposing. Heck, some cannot even interpret what a .01mm difference between TT materials. That is a very small difference. One cannot notice that in tournaments.

Dan and Tom here in TTD have done a great job in interpreting how the ball behaves based on their strokes. That is useful. That can give us useful info on how the ball plays. They have used phrases such as "we felt" , "we believe" because these are based on their own strokes.

Now if Dan and Tom did give you the measurements you're asking for, care to explain how those numbers affect the way the ball plays and how we should play with them? That is also useful.

Harvey Aquino
Concerned citizen


Sent from my iPhone 5 using Tapatalk

Tom
06-27-2014, 09:58 AM
Hi guys, Thanks for all the comments and questions! Really enjoyed making the review and testing the new balls with Dan.......I played with the new balls again yesterday and I think getting used to them won't take as long as we first thought :) I was getting used to how the ball behaves, it does seem like you have to take care to get the right amount of spin on your strokes but once you adjust to the slightly different bounce its not so bad!

Flatter strokes seem to be much easier with the new ball as you have slightly more time and margin for error......anyway I hope everybody can get hold of the balls and start training hard with them!

Me and Dan will be testing the new Stiga Airoc very soon, so lookout for the review soon!

Tom

Sali
06-27-2014, 10:22 AM
It seems most of players will use now long or medium serves. If the spin is less and the bounce is higher it will be very easy to attack short serve with a lot of power.

Alborz
06-27-2014, 01:28 PM
It seems most of players will use now long or medium serves. If the spin is less and the bounce is higher it will be very easy to attack short serve with a lot of power.
I don't think so. The new ball has less spin but there is still spin on it. If you serve long your opponent will smash it in your face. But if you serve short with down spin he/she will not attack it so strong. He can only flick it slowly and you will be able to counter it back.

Alborz
06-27-2014, 01:38 PM
Thanks so much for the review! Chinese rubbers may go out of style because you have to go up so much, meaning that the sponge might need to bounce more. Maybe Adidas P7 would suit the new ball very well. I liked when Tom switched hands there in the match :)
There are two reasons why Chinese rubbers will not go out of style:

1. New ball have less spin so players may switch to tacky Chinese rubbers which produce more spin that none-tacky ones.
2. Even now there are some Chinese rubbers with softer sponges like Hurricane 3.50.

But i'm agree with you about tacky rubbers with hard sponge. They may go out of style. But only maybe.

UpSideDownCarl
06-27-2014, 01:47 PM
Good point, I found it quite difficult explaining this. Basically, the celluloid ball because it was faster it seem to shoot through the table more, and the spin kicked of the surface more forward. However when the poly ball bounced, because it was slower it seemed to land and not come through quickly giving an effect that it bounced higher.

Dan, I think you explained this pretty decently.

I will add one thing, but, I think it is in what you said. The celluloid ball is grabbed by the surface of the table more and so the spin causes it to kick more on the bounce. In other words a heavy topspin ball will accelerate on the bounce and so it will not slow down and it will shoot forward creating a lower arc. The Poly ball's surface does not have as much friction so that, when it contacts the table, the table does not grab it hardly at all. So, with a Poly ball, a heavy topspin shot will not kick and accelerate the same way on the bounce and therefore the ball slows down more in flight. Therefore, the bounce is more up rather than forward since the topspin is not causing the ball to accelerate on the bounce.

This was the thing that was most disconcerting to me when I hit with the poly ball. The reason? It makes the ball soooooo much easier to track that a tennis player who has never played against the kind of arc and heavy spin of a good loop, would be able to track the ball much better than with a celluloid ball. Someone who had not really played table tennis at a high level will not have to adjust to curve and sidespin bounce to the same extent with the poly ball as with a celluloid ball. The poly ball just hangs up there to be crushed. It won't be hard to get used to, but the interaction of the material of the ball with the surface of the table changes things A LOT and makes things much easier in a way that I did not really like.

This is also why I wanted to see if Dan could get a backspin serve to go back to the net with the Poly ball.

Were you able to do that Dan? I guess I should get my hands on another poly ball and try myself to see if I can.

In any case, good job explaining that complex issue of how the celluloid ball bounced higher and longer in the bounce test but the poly ball bounces up more than the celluloid ball in a rally.

Rajah*
06-27-2014, 02:07 PM
Talking about tt materials is just a useless speech unless contains a decent set of numbers. yes.

--------
Through being a graduated engineer. I only trust the numbers, I love the numbers.

Human's body natural senses are fairly deceptive. No two man will feel alike, you know.

One man's softish feeling of the ball is another man's hard feeling. So is the ball speed, spin, bounce, etc.

Hence, my first and foremost necessity when reading all the reviews on table tennis materials is the exact numbers from laboratory material tests.
Numbers and numbers only will tell you whole of truth.

So far, I have only got a bulk of waterish, blank words about the plastic balls. Multitude of meaningless and obscure phrases, no numbers.


BALLS MEASUREMENTS I'm LOOKING FOR.

Diameter to 0,01 mm
Mass to 0.01 g
Geometrical Hardness (standard testing machine) to 0.01 mm.

Please, take care to provide for those numbers in your reporting of the plastic balls.

Thanks.
Igor NOVICK

Building Constructions & Materials proficient.

Ohhh this comment needs a popcorn bigtime! [emoji122] secure yourself a new ball compute it youself with numbers and learn the basic of your skills. Thats how engineer should do it.

esta é a coisa mais estúpida que eu já li, sendo arrogante a respeito de sua profissão porra

Sali
06-27-2014, 02:26 PM
I don't think so. The new ball has less spin but there is still spin on it. If you serve long your opponent will smash it in your face. But if you serve short with down spin he/she will not attack it so strong. He can only flick it slowly and you will be able to counter it back.

So look at Fan Zhendong, he is attacking with his flick all short serves and the ball is not that slow. Some players are afraid of that, so they try quite often to change from short to long or medium. Now when the ball bounces higher and has less spin guess what FZD will do with such ball.
Beeing able to smash long serves need you to be very fast on your feet and guess how long the ball is going to be. It is never easy.

TTHopeful
06-27-2014, 02:38 PM
Hi guys, Thanks for all the comments and questions! Really enjoyed making the review and testing the new balls with Dan.......I played with the new balls again yesterday and I think getting used to them won't take as long as we first thought :) I was getting used to how the ball behaves, it does seem like you have to take care to get the right amount of spin on your strokes but once you adjust to the slightly different bounce its not so bad!

Flatter strokes seem to be much easier with the new ball as you have slightly more time and margin for error......anyway I hope everybody can get hold of the balls and start training hard with them!

Me and Dan will be testing the new Stiga Airoc very soon, so lookout for the review soon!

Tom

That's positive to hear. It sounds like your getting some early practice in with that new ball Tom :D

Alborz
06-27-2014, 02:56 PM
So look at Fan Zhendong, he is attacking with his flick all short serves and the ball is not that slow. Some players are afraid of that, so they try quite often to change from short to long or medium. Now when the ball bounces higher and has less spin guess what FZD will do with such ball.
Beeing able to smash long serves need you to be very fast on your feet and guess how long the ball is going to be. It is never easy.
Look at ZJK's legs and see his side jumps. Its not hard of top players to move fast. Long serves only work when they are surprising. If you serve long all the time you can not surprise your opponent.

Sali
06-27-2014, 08:37 PM
Of course not all the time, but there will be significantly less short serves. There are still medium serves as well.

dici
06-28-2014, 06:57 AM
I had played with some chinese players who are able to make it to province or youth team B before. Basically if you serve long, it does not matter is a top or back spin. What they simply do is drive it back.

And it same as returning the ball. As long as it is long ball, they can step a side do forehand drive, or just backhand loop.

Tinykin
06-28-2014, 08:48 AM
This was the thing that was most disconcerting to me when I hit with the poly ball. The reason? It makes the ball soooooo much easier to track that a tennis player who has never played against the kind of arc and heavy spin of a good loop, would be able to track the ball much better than with a celluloid ball. Someone who had not really played table tennis at a high level will not have to adjust to curve and sidespin bounce to the same extent with the poly ball as with a celluloid ball. The poly ball just hangs up there to be crushed. It won't be hard to get used to, but the interaction of the material of the ball with the surface of the table changes things A LOT and makes things much easier in a way that I did not really like.

Carl, interesting post but I don't quite get what you are saying here. Could you simplify a little?

UpSideDownCarl
06-28-2014, 10:00 AM
When you hit with a celluloid ball, because the ball surface has a certain amount of grab, the table grabs the ball so that it kicks, it accelerates big time, there is this topspin arc to the ball, and it drops fast. So, if you have not seen that, and played against that enough to really read the spin and track the arc of the ball, you will completely miss the ball because of the kick from the bounce. If you loop heavy against someone who is USATT rated 1400-1500 (so a decent player but not supper high rated), they will swing and their racket will be a few feet from where the ball is. If you put sidespin/topspin it kicks forward and to the side. If you do this to that same player, they will be too high and to the left of the ball when they swing. Because they did not read the spin and track the ball.

The new ball has a much more slick surface, there is so much less grab that the table does not grab it almost at all. It always bounces as though the ball has no spin on it. The ball always seemed to go up, not forward. When it went up, it slowed down. So you don't have to read the spin to know the arc. You don't have to think to know the arc. It is always close enough to the same arc. Because it goes higher, slows down, and does not kick almost at all, you can put heavy topspin on the ball and a recreational player who has never hit against a loop before in his life, will be able to get his racket on the ball without having to think much.

I don't so much care that a lower level player can track the ball well. I care that that skill of learning to see the spin, right off the other player's racket and watching the arc of the ball confirm that you are reading the spin correctly, which I feel is part of the art of higher level play, WILL BE LOST.

The ability to track one of those crazy sidespin loops and know it has more side than top and what you have to do to get it back, and where you have to move to in order to contact the ball, will be much less of a factor. Smacking the ball flat could end up becoming as effective as heavy loop. Which is absolutely not the case with a celluloid ball. And smacking the ball flat takes much less technique than heavy loop.

I guess this is a question for Dan, did you guys do sidespin loops? Did they kick to the side much or just hang up there after the bounce?

UpSideDownCarl
06-28-2014, 10:36 AM
Carl, interesting post but I don't quite get what you are saying here. Could you simplify a little?

By the way, one of the reasons I used the example of a tennis player, a good tennis player will see the spin, adjust to the spin, change the angle of the racket and, if they can get their racket on the ball a few times, they will start getting the ball on the table. But if you loop heavy at them from mid-distance, they will not be able to track the ball and get their racket on the ball consistently against heavy loop, for at least a week of playing a lot against heavy topspin. They already have the skills of tracking the ball and reading the spin but will miss when the ball has a lot of spin until they really get accustomed to the amount of arc and kick.

Tinykin
06-28-2014, 07:13 PM
OK, cheers.

Dan
06-29-2014, 05:30 PM
This is also why I wanted to see if Dan could get a backspin serve to go back to the net with the Poly ball.

Were you able to do that Dan? I guess I should get my hands on another poly ball and try myself to see if I can.

In any case, good job explaining that complex issue of how the celluloid ball bounced higher and longer in the bounce test but the poly ball bounces up more than the celluloid ball in a rally.

Hey Carl,

Thanks for explaining it easier here. You are right, the celluloid kicked through more due to more spin being produced it felt. The plastic ball came through slower and dragged a touch more and felt higher.

I didn't have much time at all yesterday but here are 4 serves with the plastic ball.

Orange ball = Celluloid ball
White ball - Plastic ball


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SM7VJVYV9Wc

I was quite impressed with the backspin produced. From looking at the video it is quite hard to see to much difference between the two balls however it felt more lighter somehow with the celluloid ball. When the celluloid ball landed it seemed to skid that bit more and span back lower and more crisp. The plastic ball came back to the net well but slightly more clunky.

I think with some adaptation and if I contact slightly lower I would be able to serve the plastic ball more effectively.

I will try get some more videos up soon if any requests.

In terms of the side spin as you mentioned Carl, we didn't do much of this in the review however if you look at the very last point, I used a side spin forehand shot which created quite a lot of kick. So there is some good spin there but not as much as the celluloid that's for sure.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-HJFev0adg

UpSideDownCarl
06-30-2014, 03:37 AM
Hey Carl,

Thanks for explaining it easier here. You are right, the celluloid kicked through more due to more spin being produced it felt. The plastic ball came through slower and dragged a touch more and felt higher.

I didn't have much time at all yesterday but here are 4 serves with the plastic ball.

Orange ball = Celluloid ball
White ball - Plastic ball


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SM7VJVYV9Wc

I was quite impressed with the backspin produced. From looking at the video it is quite hard to see to much difference between the two balls however it felt more lighter somehow with the celluloid ball. When the celluloid ball landed it seemed to skid that bit more and span back lower and more crisp. The plastic ball came back to the net well but slightly more clunky.

I think with some adaptation and if I contact slightly lower I would be able to serve the plastic ball more effectively.

I will try get some more videos up soon if any requests.

In terms of the side spin as you mentioned Carl, we didn't do much of this in the review however if you look at the very last point, I used a side spin forehand shot which created quite a lot of kick. So there is some good spin there but not as much as the celluloid that's for sure.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-HJFev0adg

Awesome post Dan. Thanks for this. That answers two questions in a big way. That you can get the ball to come back to the net and that the sidespin has a pretty decent kick are both good new to me. Thanks again.

Dan
06-30-2014, 09:49 AM
Awesome post Dan. Thanks for this. That answers two questions in a big way. That you can get the ball to come back to the net and that the sidespin has a pretty decent kick are both good new to me. Thanks again.
Great to hear Carl! The sidespin will need to have a re look at to fullt confirm but Its somewhat decent due to last point we can see :)

nirumpishe
06-30-2014, 11:34 AM
i have personally used and didnt like them at all.. they are less spinny !!

TTHopeful
06-30-2014, 04:00 PM
You should make a tutorial of that ghost serve Dan! You seem to it do it pretty easy.

AlexD
06-30-2014, 04:21 PM
Nice review!
I got a question: what about pimple rubbers with this polyball? Have you tried?

Greetings

RAMI
06-30-2014, 04:41 PM
Thank you for this great review

luci_rac
06-30-2014, 05:49 PM
Very nice review ! Thank you

dasexybanana
06-30-2014, 06:19 PM
Great review!

Dan
07-02-2014, 10:21 AM
Glad you like the review guys.


Nice review!
I got a question: what about pimple rubbers with this polyball? Have you tried?

Greetings

Yes I spoke with professional player Brit Eerland regarding the new ball as she has tried it. She said she thinks it will benefit short pimple players as the bounce is higher they can do more with the ball.

Because the ball jumps a little higher you can hit harder and your success rate should be higher.

DXV0401
07-03-2014, 01:46 PM
How many brands started to make poly balls?

Alborz
07-03-2014, 02:20 PM
How many brands started to make poly balls?Nice question. I want to know that too.

cloren
07-03-2014, 08:45 PM
This is a bizarre situation, why we should accept these new rules, the characteristics of the current ball are crucial for the different types of game. The polly ball does not feet with our sport and the answer is easy…..it is not spinny!!!
Are there any consistent reasons that justify this change?

EazyWeazyTT
07-03-2014, 09:55 PM
This is a bizarre situation, why we should accept these new rules, the characteristics of the current ball are crucial for the different types of game. The polly ball does not feet with our sport and the answer is easy…..it is not spinny!!!
Are there any consistent reasons that justify this change?

Yes there are a couple reasons.
First of all the celluloid is infammable.
In some countries the production is not allowed due to the fact that acetone is used in manufacture.

At least thats what i read
source (german):http://www.swp.de/ehingen/sport/sonstige/regional/Jetzt-kommt-der-Plastikball-Tischtennis-Zelluloidball-wird-abgeschafft;art3678,2569963

Tinykin
07-04-2014, 11:15 PM
Yes there are a couple reasons.
First of all the celluloid is infammable.
In some countries the production is not allowed due to the fact that acetone is used in manufacture.

At least thats what i read
source (german):http://www.swp.de/ehingen/sport/sonstige/regional/Jetzt-kommt-der-Plastikball-Tischtennis-Zelluloidball-wird-abgeschafft;art3678,2569963

I doubt that that would be reason enough to ban manufacturing. After all handling any petroleum product, manufacturing explosives or even nuclear bombs are very dangerous yet ways are found.

Rajah*
07-05-2014, 12:32 AM
Technology will find its way..just be patient [emoji4]

Sent from my HTC One M8 using Tapatalk

cloren
07-05-2014, 05:22 PM
I doubt that that would be reason enough to ban manufacturing. After all handling any petroleum product, manufacturing explosives or even nuclear bombs are very dangerous yet ways are found.
Totally agree

cloren
07-05-2014, 05:29 PM
Yesterday I club mate told me that something is going to coming up that will make these balls more closer to the current ones, but I still thinking that the manufacturing of celluloid is not going to be terminated. I our lives we are surrounded of hundred of products that are dangerous.

elrigo99
07-05-2014, 06:05 PM
I heard that it's even because celluloid balls are made in two parts while poly just one shell and so they save money and materials...
But I'm against changing ball too, actually the game could be completely revolutionized because of the lack of spin. I think that fast rubbers will be more used than tacky ones and the game will be much faster.

JHB
07-05-2014, 07:01 PM
How many brands started to make poly balls?

Tibhar, Joola, Andro, Donic, Nittaku, Stiga, DHS, Double Fish, Butterfly, Cornilleau, Giant Dragon, Hanno, Kinson, Palio, Sunflex, TSP and Xushaofa have all had their plastic balls approved by the ITTF. The German brands are just starting to become available in Europe but the Chinese and Japanese brands haven't reached us yet - I'd expect this to look very different come August or September.

Alborz
07-05-2014, 07:19 PM
I heard that it's even because celluloid balls are made in two parts while poly just one shell and so they save money and materials...
But I'm against changing ball too, actually the game could be completely revolutionized because of the lack of spin. I think that fast rubbers will be more used than tacky ones and the game will be much faster.
No, its not because saving money by using only one shell. Most of the poly balls have seems like old balls.

elrigo99
07-05-2014, 07:28 PM
Oh, they must have given me wrong information... I'm sorry

Tinykin
07-06-2014, 01:17 AM
Tibhar, Joola, Andro, Donic, Nittaku, Stiga, DHS, Double Fish, Butterfly, Cornilleau, Giant Dragon, Hanno, Kinson, Palio, Sunflex, TSP and Xushaofa have all had their plastic balls approved by the ITTF. The German brands are just starting to become available in Europe but the Chinese and Japanese brands haven't reached us yet - I'd expect this to look very different come August or September.
Someone on another forum identified that there are only 4 manufacturers.
Most of the European makes (seamed) are re-branded DHS balls. They they may differ slightly because they submitted their own specifications to the manufacturer.

Edited to add:
According to forum wisdom, none of the European brands manufacture balls. In Japan only Nittaku and Butterfly have the capability.
If anyone knows more or differently, I'd love to hear from you.

JHB
07-06-2014, 04:40 PM
Someone on another forum identified that there are only 4 manufacturers.
Most of the European makes (seamed) are re-branded DHS balls. They they may differ slightly because they submitted their own specifications to the manufacturer.

Edited to add:
According to forum wisdom, none of the European brands manufacture balls. In Japan only Nittaku and Butterfly have the capability.
If anyone knows more or differently, I'd love to hear from you.

I once read somewhere that everything apart from Nittaku came from the same Chinese factory. That can't be right if Butterfly manufacture as well of course ! I suspect a deliberate over-simplification on someone's part, but that doesn't invalidate the point that DHS make balls for virtually everyone. Badge engineering, ya gotta love it......

harveyaquino
07-10-2014, 01:35 AM
Hey Dan and Matt, you reviewed before the infinity VPS V blade right? I wonder how it plays with the new ball? Supposedly if paired with Tenergy rubbers? Thank you!
This is because I think I'm going for allwood blades rather than spending much money on composites that I can't control. But I want a long term investment so I want the best wood in quality and performance.


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UpSideDownCarl
07-10-2014, 05:16 AM
Hey Dan and Matt, you reviewed before the infinity VPS V blade right? I wonder how it plays with the new ball? Supposedly if paired with Tenergy rubbers? Thank you!
This is because I think I'm going for allwood blades rather than spending much money on composites that I can't control. But I want a long term investment so I want the best wood in quality and performance.

When I hit with the Infinity VPS I did not like it. The core felt mushy and the outer plies felt hard. And that did not do much for the spin or the control. I would way rather play with a Clipper or an Avalox P700, or an Avalox P500. Those are all less expensive and I like the way they play better.

harveyaquino
07-10-2014, 05:22 AM
When I hit with the Infinity VPS I did not like it. The core felt mushy and the outer plies felt hard. And that did not do much for the spin or the control. I would way rather play with a Clipper or an Avalox P700, or an Avalox P500. Those are all less expensive and I like the way they play better.

Thanks! The more I search for reviews on that blade, the more I find out about its construction weaknesses. Someone from another forum posted a pic of it (brand new) splitting in half! I guess it is very fragile.

Which of the Clipper blades (CR,CC, Classic) do you prefer? I am having a hard time choosing blades from Stiga because of unstable QC. But their wood blades are definitely good, not so much for durability. I haven't tried Clipper though.

Blai35
07-10-2014, 05:28 AM
This might have already been said but I believe dhs came out with tin arc 5 as a rubber for the new ball? Also sorry if this has already been asked but has anyone gotten the chance to try any of these new rubbers designed for the new ball?

Rajah*
07-10-2014, 07:42 AM
Hey harvey i blieve observation of carl regarding infinity vps is correct, just way to soft for me and i felt it loosing power when you go mid distance attacking. Ebenholz nct V felt much better much stable.

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UpSideDownCarl
07-10-2014, 12:55 PM
Thanks! The more I search for reviews on that blade, the more I find out about its construction weaknesses. Someone from another forum posted a pic of it (brand new) splitting in half! I guess it is very fragile.

Which of the Clipper blades (CR,CC, Classic) do you prefer? I am having a hard time choosing blades from Stiga because of unstable QC. But their wood blades are definitely good, not so much for durability. I haven't tried Clipper though.

The simplest Clipper is the one I like best: Classic. It is really an amazing blade. The CR is fine too, but I like the Classic better. Yeah, Stiga's quality control is a little bit dodgy. The Clipper is pretty solid though. As Rajah says, the Ebenholz V is pretty good. So is the Rosewood V and the Rosewood XO. However, I still like the Classic Clipper better and it is less than half the price. :)

I also had a friend who had an Infinity where the plies split on their own and nothing had happened to cause it. I am not sure what is going on that I have heard of several Infinity blades breaking in different ways. The Clippers that I have have been slammed (accidentally) into the sides of tables and they got a little denting but were easy to fix and stayed solid and continued to play well.

By the way, more of the pros in NYC use a Stiga Clipper than any other racket. The closest 2nd is a Timo Boll ALC.

harveyaquino
07-10-2014, 01:53 PM
Thank you for your inputs sir Carl and Rajah. I will PM you if I have more queries so to avoid deviating from the main topic of this thread. :)


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Spitfire
07-11-2014, 04:09 PM
Tibhar Table Tennis Poly Ball





http://www.ittf.com/ittf_equipment/rubber_stamps/tibhar_plastic.jpg

Hello Table Tennis Daily!,

Last night I was lucky enough to experience my first practice with the much awaited and much talked about the new Poly/Plastic ball on how it would affect the game in general , or would it affect players Long term ?

I first noticed the ball was bigger than the old Celluloid ball that we are all used to , this was confirmed by a friend who has a Caliper.

I also noticed the ball "felt" heavier on ball/blade contact than the Celluloid ball however on weighing both a Celluloid and a Poly ball they both weighted 3 Grams (My Scales don't do decimal Points)

Due to the overall reduction and Spin and speed I feel this ball will be easier to block and will be suited more for the players who like to play at the table , people who like to step away from the table will have to be in the correct position to be able to make a good shot, due to the ball being much slower.

The Poly Ball has a higher bounce and is easier to control

We invited a Divsion 1 League player down who is a chopper - we didn't tell him he is playing with a poly ball - We asked him at the end of the session(3Hrs) if he noticed that he was playing with a poly ball , he said no , he couldn't tell any difference

Any Questions?

lefty
07-11-2014, 05:44 PM
I picked my Tibhar poly balls up today. I haven't played with them yet but had a quick look, I couldn't see the size difference if I'm honest. I'm a joiner as well so if it was noticeable I think I'd have seen it! What I did notice was how white they are, this makes them really stand out against the old balls, so I'd guess that's why many think they can see the size difference. I mean do you all really think we can tell 0.2 of a millimetre?

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JHB
07-11-2014, 06:19 PM
I also picked up three of these Tibhar SYNTTs on Wednesday. Shame it might be next Wednesday before I next manage to get to MK TTC and actually get to play with one, but ho hum ! Anyway I agree with what Spitfire said, they are very white indeed, which can't ve a bad thing really. I also noticed that they have a fair bit of powder on them when new, rather like DHS celluloid balls. The ball I knocked around at home left lots of lovely white marks on my rubbers.

I did a very unscientific bounce test on my dining table; it seemed to me that the poly ball initially bounced to the same height as the celluloid, but when I left both balls to their own devices the poly stopped bouncing before the celluloid did. Not sure what if anything that would mean in actual play - we'll see, hopefully !

Dan
07-12-2014, 09:23 AM
It seems the new poly balls are starting to become a lot more readily available.




Tibhar Table Tennis Poly Ball





http://www.ittf.com/ittf_equipment/rubber_stamps/tibhar_plastic.jpg

Hello Table Tennis Daily!,

Last night I was lucky enough to experience my first practice with the much awaited and much talked about the new Poly/Plastic ball on how it would affect the game in general , or would it affect players Long term ?

I first noticed the ball was bigger than the old Celluloid ball that we are all used to , this was confirmed by a friend who has a Caliper.

I also noticed the ball "felt" heavier on ball/blade contact than the Celluloid ball however on weighing both a Celluloid and a Poly ball they both weighted 3 Grams (My Scales don't do decimal Points)

Due to the overall reduction and Spin and speed I feel this ball will be easier to block and will be suited more for the players who like to play at the table , people who like to step away from the table will have to be in the correct position to be able to make a good shot, due to the ball being much slower.

The Poly Ball has a higher bounce and is easier to control

We invited a Divsion 1 League player down who is a chopper - we didn't tell him he is playing with a poly ball - We asked him at the end of the session(3Hrs) if he noticed that he was playing with a poly ball , he said no , he couldn't tell any difference

Any Questions?

Great review Spitfire! I love how you got a defender to use it for 3 hours and he didn't even notice the change! Me and @Tom was thinking to do something similar to this but we didnt have the time in the end.

How did you find the ball to effect against the defender? Did you find it easier to attack backspin balls?

Your thoughts on the ball are similar to mine in the sense that it feels heavier on the contact when hitting the ball to the celluloid. It is a feeling you have to sense to fully understand right :)


I picked my Tibhar poly balls up today. I haven't played with them yet but had a quick look, I couldn't see the size difference if I'm honest. I'm a joiner as well so if it was noticeable I think I'd have seen it! What I did notice was how white they are, this makes them really stand out against the old balls, so I'd guess that's why many think they can see the size difference. I mean do you all really think we can tell 0.2 of a millimetre?

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Looking forward to your review @lefty I understand what you mean, it is not easy to see the size difference, some seem to notice it and others dont. @Tom thought they looked slightly visually larger. Yes I thought that, they are certainly more white.


I also picked up three of these Tibhar SYNTTs on Wednesday. Shame it might be next Wednesday before I next manage to get to MK TTC and actually get to play with one, but ho hum ! Anyway I agree with what Spitfire said, they are very white indeed, which can't ve a bad thing really. I also noticed that they have a fair bit of powder on them when new, rather like DHS celluloid balls. The ball I knocked around at home left lots of lovely white marks on my rubbers.

I did a very unscientific bounce test on my dining table; it seemed to me that the poly ball initially bounced to the same height as the celluloid, but when I left both balls to their own devices the poly stopped bouncing before the celluloid did. Not sure what if anything that would mean in actual play - we'll see, hopefully !

Nice unscientific bounce test @JHB I did this when I first got mine on the kitchen table :)

Looking forward to your review of the new balls.

TTHopeful
07-12-2014, 03:07 PM
Tibhar Table Tennis Poly Ball





http://www.ittf.com/ittf_equipment/rubber_stamps/tibhar_plastic.jpg

Hello Table Tennis Daily!,

Last night I was lucky enough to experience my first practice with the much awaited and much talked about the new Poly/Plastic ball on how it would affect the game in general , or would it affect players Long term ?

I first noticed the ball was bigger than the old Celluloid ball that we are all used to , this was confirmed by a friend who has a Caliper.

I also noticed the ball "felt" heavier on ball/blade contact than the Celluloid ball however on weighing both a Celluloid and a Poly ball they both weighted 3 Grams (My Scales don't do decimal Points)

Due to the overall reduction and Spin and speed I feel this ball will be easier to block and will be suited more for the players who like to play at the table , people who like to step away from the table will have to be in the correct position to be able to make a good shot, due to the ball being much slower.

The Poly Ball has a higher bounce and is easier to control

We invited a Divsion 1 League player down who is a chopper - we didn't tell him he is playing with a poly ball - We asked him at the end of the session(3Hrs) if he noticed that he was playing with a poly ball , he said no , he couldn't tell any difference

Any Questions?

Nice review, I hope we can all adapt quite quickly.

TTHopeful
07-12-2014, 03:10 PM
I have found another ball review on the Tibhar poly ball Spitfire tried.

The reviewer said these comments:

I had a hit with the new Tibhar 40+ plastic ball at my club with two friends for about 30min, doing both drills and a best of 5 game. Here are my opnions,

- the ball has a visible seam
- the new ball is harder, feels a touch heavier
- when hitting the new ball, the sound is different
- the new ball bounces higher than the regular ball
- the new ball travels slower than the regular ball
- there is less spin on the new ball after playing a topspin shot

The reviewer said overall that it was surprisingly easy to play with the new plastic ball. Higher bounce and less spin means that keeping the ball on the table is much easier. A spin-based attacker will need to work harder to spin the ball to the same degree as the regular 40mm ball. At the same time, blocking is almost effortless.

6101

vvk1
07-12-2014, 03:38 PM
I have found another ball review on the Tibhar poly ball Spitfire tried.

The reviewer said these comments:

I had a hit with the new Tibhar 40+ plastic ball at my club with two friends for about 30min, doing both drills and a best of 5 game. Here are my opnions,

- the ball has a visible seam
- the new ball is harder, feels a touch heavier
- when hitting the new ball, the sound is different
- the new ball bounces higher than the regular ball
- the new ball travels slower than the regular ball
- there is less spin on the new ball after playing a topspin shot

The reviewer said overall that it was surprisingly easy to play with the new plastic ball. Higher bounce and less spin means that keeping the ball on the table is much easier. A spin-based attacker will need to work harder to spin the ball to the same degree as the regular 40mm ball. At the same time, blocking is almost effortless.

6101

Yup, I wrote the above on mytt.net. IMHO, all these prophesies of doom that accompany some of the other reviews are largely unfounded.

Rory
07-12-2014, 04:08 PM
Great review. I'm looking forward to getting to try the poly balls.

LGriffiths
07-12-2014, 05:04 PM
Are these available in the UK to try yet?

vvk1
07-12-2014, 06:07 PM
Yup, from bribar.

JHB
07-12-2014, 06:10 PM
Are these available in the UK to try yet?

Yes, I bought mine from Bribar. Several of the UK TT suppliers ( Bribar, Jarvis, Topspin, Global) are now advertising poly balls for sale, although not Tees Sport or Thorntons yet.

TEGGMinh
07-12-2014, 06:28 PM
Thanks for that review. I think there are not many difference. i have heard by some other tests and my coaches think so too :D

lefty
08-11-2014, 06:44 PM
Looking forward to your review @lefty I understand what you mean, it is not easy to see the size difference, some seem to notice it and others dont. @Tom thought they looked slightly visually larger. Yes I thought that, they are certainly more white.

Sorry Dan I've just seen this! I've been on hols so been off the radar a bit, otherwise I'd have been at the Waldner Persson exhibition as well :-( I'm very jealous.

I did a full training session with the new balls recently using both the Tibhar ball & the new Donic ones. Firstly the Donic are much better imo.

I go along with a lot of what people have said, as far as the differences go, slightly less spin, slower, I also did the bounce test and it does possibly bounce higher at first but not for as long. This could be because they're heavier, but I think it's because they're harder & have less flex. In golf a harder ball spins less due to the ball not flexing as much which means it doesn't stay on the club which doesn't then grab it as much so less spin, does that make sense?

All in all though we both thought it wouldn't take that long to get used too, especially as the balls get better with every new release.

We did however have more trouble in the games, all the differences as well as trying to just react like a match situation definitely had an effect on us both, again though I don't see it being a long term problem.


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Baal
08-11-2014, 11:41 PM
Sorry Dan I've just seen this! I've been on hols so been off the radar a bit, otherwise I'd have been at the Waldner Persson exhibition as well :-( I'm very jealous.

I did a full training session with the new balls recently using both the Tibhar ball & the new Donic ones. Firstly the Donic are much better imo.

I go along with a lot of what people have said, as far as the differences go, slightly less spin, slower, I also did the bounce test and it does possibly bounce higher at first but not for as long. This could be because they're heavier, but I think it's because they're harder & have less flex. In golf a harder ball spins less due to the ball not flexing as much which means it doesn't stay on the club which doesn't then grab it as much so less spin, does that make sense?

All in all though we both thought it wouldn't take that long to get used too, especially as the balls get better with every new release.

We did however have more trouble in the games, all the differences as well as trying to just react like a match situation definitely had an effect on us both, again though I don't see it being a long term problem.


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Yes I agree with all of this. The effects on timing are subtle but can really mess you up when you don't know exactly where the ball is going. I weighed some Joola 40+ with a very accurate laboratory analytical balance (accurate +/- 2 milligrams), and to my surprise they were not heavier than celluloid balls, but they felt heavier when I played with them. Is the heavier feel some sort of "placebo" effect based on my expectations? Possibly, but they felt heavier when I played with them, even after I knew that they weren't. The sound is only slightly different. Mine (Nittaku and Joola) have all bounced lower than celluloid in a simple bounce test, every time, about 80% as high as celluloid balls. I agree that greater hardness could cause this. The bounce when you actually play is sometimes higher, sometimes lower (more often I think), depending on the shot, but always a little different than you are used to. It drops like a rock at any distance from the table. It is hard to judge which of your opponent's serves are going to come out long for attack and more of them stay short. It was hard to flick returns first few times I played and later got easier. Balls that hit deep on your table with the polyball seem to have a lot of penetration power in spite of apparently less speed and spin. I really do not like them and that is after using them a lot over the last two weeks. In terms of play, I could not tell any difference between DHS, Joola, and Nittaku China versions. All were depressing. I have not tried Stiga or Donic. Do not underestimate the number of ways these balls will subtly mess you up in actual free play where you don't know where the ball is going. Actually, the more I have played with them, the less I like them and I am up to about 20 hours or playing time with them now. (I am at this point switching back to celluloid). Also, if you try to overcompensate too much for the lack of spin, by trying to generate more spin, you will have even more timing errors. One last thing, I did a trick of using a joola polyball without telling my regular practice partners. Both are around 2100 US. Both could tell the difference immediately; one on the second rally caught the ball in his hand, looked at it and asked what it was.

Dan
08-12-2014, 09:33 AM
Sorry Dan I've just seen this! I've been on hols so been off the radar a bit, otherwise I'd have been at the Waldner Persson exhibition as well :-( I'm very jealous.

I did a full training session with the new balls recently using both the Tibhar ball & the new Donic ones. Firstly the Donic are much better imo.

I go along with a lot of what people have said, as far as the differences go, slightly less spin, slower, I also did the bounce test and it does possibly bounce higher at first but not for as long. This could be because they're heavier, but I think it's because they're harder & have less flex. In golf a harder ball spins less due to the ball not flexing as much which means it doesn't stay on the club which doesn't then grab it as much so less spin, does that make sense?

All in all though we both thought it wouldn't take that long to get used too, especially as the balls get better with every new release.

We did however have more trouble in the games, all the differences as well as trying to just react like a match situation definitely had an effect on us both, again though I don't see it being a long term problem.


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Hey @Lefty, no worries at all, hope you had a nice time away.

It was a shame you missed out on the exhibition, however Jorgen did say they want to come back again and he said maybe next year we will return. Fingers crossed!

In regards to the ball, that's some good positive feedback there. I think you are right, a lot of us are worried but we should all adapt fairly quickly. Both players are also in the same both using the same ball so all should be okay.

That's a good analogy there, comparing with the golf balls, that makes a lot of sense.

Thanks for the review! :)

TT-Chris
01-14-2015, 09:43 PM
Thanks for this review... I've found a really good setup and the new ball is coming.
I hope i don't need to change my setup, because i am tired of testing new blades and rubbers :(

Killerspintt
01-18-2015, 12:05 PM
Dan, have you tried the polyballs with calibra tour M ? Since the calibra tour topsheet is so "special", i wonder if it still works fine with polyballs.

I'm testing Tour M in combination with Innerforce AL, it is playing realy great.....with C-balls at least :D