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View Full Version : Chinese style Forehand topspin against backspin



Maxwell Choi
08-05-2014, 02:10 PM
Hey guys. My Infinity VPS V with DHS NEO Provincial Hurricane 3 along with Andro Rasant is a bad looper on the forehand as I couldn't perform my lethal Chinese drive against topspin (similar to Ma Long). The ball always goes straight to the net. For players having a similar situation like me, please give me some advice.

bachikho
08-05-2014, 02:21 PM
try viscaria instead of infinity

TTLOVE
08-05-2014, 03:00 PM
hello, I had the same problem first of all you have to tune your h3 neo, if after you send the balls still on the network, you should improve the shot. Try to go with the arm forward and above the head.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiARkUO6aEE

guitch
08-05-2014, 04:00 PM
I've tryed once DHS NEO (Provincial- not sure for Provincial) Hurricane 3 and I have to say I got same issues!
dynamics is not like a europeen rubber, I had to open a bit the blade angle, and physically go into the ball.
This is what I had to do compensate.
That's why I went for another rubber.
More over I couldn't plays using touch play, an always had to play the ball 100%

elrigo99
08-05-2014, 04:03 PM
I had the same problem, due to the hardness of the sponge and the very poor speed. So I just gave up and returned to Euro/Jap rubbers.

gman4911
08-05-2014, 11:15 PM
It would be easier to see what you're doing wrong if you post a video of yourself looping.

yogi_bear
08-06-2014, 12:53 AM
a few tips:
1. learn how to brush or graze the ball upon contact during a loop.
2. open your blade more when doing loop vs. underspin (sometimes this is the simple solution)
3. because you are hitting the ball using more of the sponge instead of brushing it with the topsheet with less sponge, you cannot optimize your stroke. so lessen sponge contact and add more brushing action.

Der_Echte
08-06-2014, 01:00 AM
Yogi !!! Good tips.

A few more while we are at it for the FAST ATTACK vs an incoming underspin ball.

- Be sure to be in position and coiled ready.

- Be sure to impact the ball at top of bounce or earlier

- Be sure to generate VERY FAST bat speed. This stroke will not work if the bat speed is too slow

- Be sure to open blade a little more vs heavier underspin.

I kinda see the argument that without tuning, certain versions of H3 (mine was #19 sponge and was deader than a doornail) but NEO version is serviceable without tuning even after tuning effect wears out (my sheet is 2-3 yrs old on a spare bat)

elrigo99
08-06-2014, 01:42 AM
Perhaps you could see the topic about Zhang Jike's techinque. There's a video in which he does slow spinny topspins on heavy underspin by Joo See Hyuk.

Der_Echte
08-06-2014, 02:38 AM
A slow, heavy spin loop is an excellent control option that if place extreme shallow or deep will give you a good ball back to go ballistic smash, but the OP is talking about a fast loop attack.

You normally choose to do this (a slow, spinny loop landing deep) if you need more time to be in position, the ball is low and spinny, or you simply choose control on this shot and look for the next ball to attack strongly. A slow loop is not a bad choice, since if you are good at it, it is very likely to land and give you a better chance next ball.

If the ball is long, has weak spin or is high, a fast loop is a good high percentage choice. Such a situation is a good opportunity for a strong attack to end the point. Attacking players should be ready for these chances and do what they can to set them up often.

It is possible his new blade and rubber simply act different than his previous setup and needs to adjust his bat speed, blade angle, and moment of impact. It is also possible his new FH rubber in stock version is unacceptable performance or a bad glue job. So many things are possible, we just as first choice focus on technique in our comments.

I recently built a bat with H3 #19 sponge and was very disappointed with its performance. Truth is, that sponge is flaming hot garbage without tuning. I did not know that at the time I bought it. My next H3 purchase will be commercial NEO version, a reliable rubber with acceptable predictable performance once it breaks in.

Der_Echte
08-06-2014, 02:44 AM
Oh crap, I just re-red OP original post and he is talking about a fast attack vs TOPSPIN ball.

In that case I say the same things in my original replay, except that you close the blade more vs heavier topspin.



- Be sure to be in position and coiled ready.

- Be sure to impact the ball at top of bounce or earlier

- Be sure to generate VERY FAST bat speed. This stroke will not work if the bat speed is too slow

- Be sure to open blade a little more vs heavier underspin.

bachikho
08-06-2014, 03:00 AM
don't open the bat vs backspin (like euro/jap rubbers), if you are playing chinese rubbers, try to close the bat more (more forward motion than upward), tacky topsheet will do the job

Maxwell Choi
08-06-2014, 05:18 AM
Thanks for the info, TTLOVE! I figured out that when doing a standard Chinese loop with H3 NEO like Ma Long or Fan Zhendong, your waist and your right leg generates the power enough to convert backspin into topspin. However, I've been wondering how the new poly ball might change the stroke. Any ideas out there?

Maxwell Choi
08-06-2014, 05:21 AM
Another problem is that Jap/Euro rubbers have a great catapult effect that you don't have to put in so much effort when doing the stroke. However, your natural body movement generates a lot of mechanical rubber such that the ball just flies off the table with no control at all. Lots of adjustment is necessary when changing from Chi rubber to Jap/Euro rubbers.

Der_Echte
08-06-2014, 01:58 PM
Generating bat speed is important to those strong attacking shots regardless of whether it is a "Euro" or "Chinese" attack. A fast loop is a fast loop, some like to take it earlier and some like to take it later and the ways to strike the ball are different, but you still gotta have bat speed. Maxwell hit it on the head saying you use your whole body starting with the legs and waist. So many things are important on a fast attack. Assuming all the basic stuff is correct like position and stance, the important thing becomes coordination of the large muscles and timing resulting in a bat that is accelerating and very fast at impact. The bat angles and swing planes are different for the objectives of each loop and the given ball. Also correctly stated before is the importance of swinging mostly forward. When you impact the ball off the bounce, you can get away with less opening the bat, but if the underspin ball bounces to net height and it is heavy, you have to open the bat a lot with that fast bat speed and a really forward swing.

VS an incoming topspin, your bat speed can overcome a lot spin on the ball, but you still have to adjust bat angle. When playing away from the table at distance, you are not closing it as much.

The new ball shapes up to be much easier to countertopspin safely if your fundamentals are solid. Placement and moving opponent around seem to have more importance than before.

TTLOVE
08-06-2014, 02:01 PM
the bounce of the new poly ball is more high and so is more easy looping backspin.

MDanielCRO
08-06-2014, 08:51 PM
Lots of adjustment is necessary when changing from Chi rubber to Jap/Euro rubbers.

I don't agree. It's easy to adjust from chinese rubber to Euro/JP rubber but it's very hard to do the opossite -> from Euro/JP style rubber to chinese. I really still didn't have a real chance to try hurricane 3 national version, but I would like to see myself looking like a fool :P

elrigo99
08-06-2014, 09:57 PM
My trainer always says timing in topspin is really important. If you can get the ball when it is still going up then it'll be really easier to put it inside, and that is really true.

Der_Echte
08-07-2014, 02:03 AM
That is also what is seemingly a national secret for blocking as well - taking the ball early. When in position, you see the ball better and can do more with it with control.

harveyaquino
08-07-2014, 04:21 AM
My trainer always says timing in topspin is really important. If you can get the ball when it is still going up then it'll be really easier to put it inside, and that is really true.

+1. It is a bit tricky though, but with proper training one can get the rhythm.

harveyaquino
08-07-2014, 04:27 AM
hello, I had the same problem first of all you have to tune your h3 neo, if after you send the balls still on the network, you should improve the shot. Try to go with the arm forward and above the head.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiARkUO6aEE

Notice the use of weight transfer. From the right leg to the left as he rotates his body. There is a sufficient upwards motion but also forward motion. I tried to copy that usage of twisting the legs (transfer of weight) but one problem I had was that the motion puts too much stress to my right knee. Any suggestions how to strengthen the legs for that motion. I noticed that even against a heavy chopper, I can easily lift the ball when I do that motion, also, it makes the motion so fluid. But I cannot maintain it for long because as Ive said it puts too much stress to my right knee. Any tips?

Maxwell Choi
08-07-2014, 06:02 AM
I agree and I had the same problem before. After training, my legs hurt like hell!

Der_Echte
08-08-2014, 02:59 AM
The Chinese rubbers I use are either Euro like or I break them in/get rid of tack to make them more Euro like.

Actually, I make them into middle of the road control rubbers that are neither Chinese, nor Euro/Japanese. For my BH wing, I do not need a rocket rubber, my bat speed is plenty fast already for fast or extreme spin shots. At least half the shots I make BH are control shots like a block or a BH counter, so I gotta go with what is suitable there.

Most players are concerned about being flashy on that wing like the FH side, but we gotta get real with ourselves. If we can make the flashy shots with good effect on BH wing with a control rubber, then why try to break the sound barrier with Calibra LT? (Funny choice of words as I used to play LT on FH for a few months and when I flipped bat I could play BH well haha)

Der_Echte
08-08-2014, 03:07 AM
Harvey, my suggestion for strengthening the core and legs will sound very ineffective and tame as there is no sudden sprinting, heavy sweating, or difficult weight lifting involved.

I suggest you get a medium backpack, fill it with 10-15 kg of WATER bottles (filled) (you drink them as you march) and hit the trail where there are some hills. Simply walk at your own pace with some extra weight over some terrain where you have good footing. Also, consider for when you go to work, if it is in a tall building, bring this ruck with you and walk up to 20th floor if there is one and take elevator down.

This is very low impact, directly works all major muscles for your core, is dynamic, will get you cut, and also builds all those small muscles that are around your joints.

Military people reject such a workout and think it is useless, (zero heavy painful exertion) (military types think you have to do hulk Hogan workout to go anywhere) but the truth is that it is effective for both core development and cutting down fat as long as you can do at least 1-2 hrs of it a day. (walking with weight) (hills really help)

Der_Echte
08-08-2014, 03:15 AM
If you absolutely feel like you MUST hit the weight room, free weight dumb bell or Kettle weights (one in each hand) and doing the classic core exercises like Squats, Dead Lift, Lunge, Situp holding weight under chin, Stair climber machine (but hold some moderate weight in both hands), and Rower can help your core and your big/small muscles.

You do not need a professional weight room to do most of this. You can make sandbags or use whatever you got around you for weight resistance. What is cool about sandbags are it is easy to make, costs next to nothing, and you can tailor the weight exactly. Be sure to use a few plastic bags and duct tape to wrap around it to keep the sand from coming out.

harveyaquino
08-08-2014, 02:06 PM
Nice suggestion Der_Echte! I guess my body was surprised by the sudden change of terrain because I am here in a mountainous city where I study, coming from the province which is flat. The hills especially the stairs really help! Haha. But I think I need to hit the gym soon. My problem is I am a bit skinny, I'm not underweight though. I believe that by building up my physique and gaining extra weight, I can exert more force and sustain the quality of shots longer and also for the long haul.

Rajah*
08-08-2014, 02:55 PM
Harvey looking skinny is good it gives you more room to move your hips and lower ex in generating explosive strokes. What you have to master is stabilitymeaning you have to square yourself everytime you attack the ball and the ability to recoil/recover fast plus the timing ofcourse

Sent from my HTC One M8 using Tapatalk

Maxwell Choi
08-08-2014, 03:09 PM
actually i figured out that donic baracuda performs much better overall when compared to dhs neo hurricane 3

harveyaquino
08-08-2014, 04:09 PM
actually i figured out that donic baracuda performs much better overall when compared to dhs neo hurricane 3

I guess it performs much better because it suits you better than the hurricane rubber. Donic Baracuda and DHS hurricane 3 Neo are two very distinct rubbers because one is a tensor and one is a Chinese rubber, meaning grippy v tacky and medium sponge v hard sponge. They cater to a lot of people. I guess Baracuda works better for you. :)

Now as a previous user of Baracuda and now a user of T05, I can really confirm that Baracuda is a baby T05. Only that Baracuda is slightly softer and slower. Both have high throw, high levels of spin and good durability. I am glad I've tried Baracuda first before Tenergy 05 because I do not have any troubles with the throw and spin sensitivity. :)

harveyaquino
08-08-2014, 04:12 PM
Harvey looking skinny is good it gives you more room to move your hips and lower ex in generating explosive strokes. What you have to master is stabilitymeaning you have to square yourself everytime you attack the ball and the ability to recoil/recover fast plus the timing ofcourse

Sent from my HTC One M8 using Tapatalk

Yes I guess that is really my problem. I am not stable enough. I noticed that when playing with better players. They can counterloop my shots fast and that leaves me almost no time to react. I guess I am still slow in that department but I'm working hard in fixing it...

sunnyqi
08-21-2014, 06:55 AM
Let's why we use Stiga wood blades instead of Butterfly ALC blades. 100% of Chinese tt players started training with DHS Hurricane/TG Series. The most important part is how the blade would fit H3. The Chinese National team male players may try viscaria cause they have blue sponge H3, which is softer. And usually we can't get it. The H3 rubber is the reason for the magical Chinese spin instead of the blade. Xu Xin is still using 5-ply blade and all the Chinese National girl players use stiga 5-ply blades.

A little tip is that we can try the equipments of the Chinese National girl players. They use stiga wood blades with softer FH H3 sponges (usually 38 degrees).

sunnyqi
08-21-2014, 07:02 AM
And for sure NO Butterfly ALC blade fits Hurricane/TG rubbers except the special made ones. ALC blades provide too much speed, which is not a good mate of the hard YunHai #22 sponge of the H3.

persistence
08-21-2014, 08:55 AM
if you want a good top spin with high spin and high speed put your racket under the table open it to the number 3 which is like this | and flick it with your elbow really fast this is called the catapult affect if the backspin is not a spinny as i described simply close the racket to the number 2 which is like this \

lycaon
08-21-2014, 04:08 PM
I do not really agree to that. i believe that the faster blade makes up for the lack of speed of the DHS rubbers. I used the provincial on an all wood and it was so slow and dead to the point I could not play properly. I then transferred that rubber to a Innerforce T5000 and the rubber felt beautiful (i guess its not ALC) but some of my mates use hurricane on ALC and it felt fine so i guess it just depends on the person (chinese players also use carbon blades e.g. ma long with the w997, zk with the viscaria and pretty sure xu xin recently changed to the intensity but that is debatable)

Butt Stallion
08-21-2014, 04:14 PM
looping against backspin is the easiest loop because you can just play with power. Just take the ball early and "loop" as fast and hard as you can, the tacky rubber does the rest for you. Topspin vs. topspin is harder though because you need to close your racket perfectly.

fais
08-21-2014, 06:21 PM
Legs! Use em!

Der_Echte
08-21-2014, 08:01 PM
looping against backspin is the easiest loop because you can just play with power. Just take the ball early and "loop" as fast and hard as you can, the tacky rubber does the rest for you. Topspin vs. topspin is harder though because you need to close your racket perfectly.

I think Stallion is correct, but for different reasons. One still has to do the work and get down & ready. Vs an undersppin ball, you generally have a LOT more time ot be in position and get down to explode with power. Technically, it is much easier for me to make a strong topspin shot vs an incoming underspin ball. (I tend to be in better position and coiled/ready more so than vs a fast incoming topspin) The bat angles required for a slow heavy loop or a fast loop are natural for me. The underspin becomes my topsin if I choose to make a fast loop.

vs an incoming topsin ball, generally there is way less time and yes, vs heavier topsin you have to close the bat more. When playing close to the table, if a player hits a fast topspin to you, then you almost have to see where it is going and be moving right away, or your options are more limited if you want to keep it on the table with higher percentage. The FH counter, however, requires less swing and can still be a decent pace, and requires simply good timing, (that is more difficult than vs an underspin ball) but who of us wants to play a parked at the endline FH counter-driving style of TT? We are not all Frauen. :)

lao wa
09-09-2014, 11:49 PM
it appears your bat angle is to closed up for the ball height when you perform the shot at close table play, and if 1.5m away from table you need to hit harder

bachikho
09-10-2014, 02:06 AM
with chinese rubbers, try to do opposite to euro/jap rubbers: close the bat vs incoming underspin, open the bat vs incoming topspin, you'll see the difference :)