Control vs. forgiveness

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I'm considering upgrading my equipment from an old Stiga 2000 with Mark V to something with a little more speed and spin, preferrably without loosing too much control and what is often referred to as "forgiveness".

When reading reviews many rubbers are referred to as having good or even excellent control. Does that say anything about their ability to be forgiving when hitting less perfect shots or are these two features completely unrelated? Somebody might say that e.g. Donic Bluefire JP01 has excellent control. Related to what? Mark V (I think not)? And, again, what about that "forgiveness"?
 
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when someone says a rubber has excellent control, they usually mean it has good control for a rubber in that speed range. a slower rubber is pretty much always easier to control.

when moving from mark V you will encounter a lot of reviews saying X or Y rubber is too slow or maybe not spinny enough... for you this doesn't mean anything because it's still probably faster and/or spinnier than your mark V was.

so instead of believing the reviews, try out other peoples' bats and try to look for what you DON'T want. if someone's bat feels too soft make a mental note that you want something harder than A. if another one feels too fast make another note and now you have "harder than A but slower than B". this will narrow your search.

when reading through reviews only look for things that are in relation to something that you have tried.

and yes, control usually means forgiveness.
 
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Both comments above are great @Forte I think you should try some friends set ups first, this is what I get the players to do who I coach. One persons review of a rubber/blade is quite often different to someone else's review, I think this is due to the variations of styles in table tennis.

Let us know what you go for.

Welcome to TTD by the way :)
 
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It sounds like you're in need of a similar feeling rubber, but one that provides a bit more speed without losing the spin/control or forgiveness as you say. Typically the softer the rubber the more forgiving it is because there is more dwell time or more time the rubber is on the ball since the ball sinks down into it more than a harder rubber.

I'd say try and stick with something that feels just as soft as the mark V, but from a newer generation of rubber. If you're looking for something JOOLA I'd recommend Xplode Sensitive (42.5 degree).

You could also try the newer Srivers G2 or G3 (forget what the differences are in sponge degree) Xiom Vega rubbers are a step up from Mark V. But as many have said you really need to test some rubbers out on friends rackets to get an idea of what you're looking for.

Just know that the faster the rubber is, typically means the less control it has compared to slower rubbers. And typically the softer the rubber is the more control it has compared to the harder rubbers.
 
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Believe I should give you some updates of my efforts in the lovely land of tabletennis rubbers and blades. Sorry if this is a lengthy post, hopefully somebody finds it interesting...

While trying to figure out what sort of blade/rubber combo would suit me I was given the opportunity to test some different setups from my club. Mainly Calibra LT Spin and Bluefire M2 of different blades, but also a couple of other variants. This is definitely a step away from some of your recommendations but ut is what I got and, as you will see, it was not so bad after all.

At first I found the Calibra giving me the same feel and at the same time more spin and speed than my current Stiga 2000/Mark V setup. Another setup was a Stiga Rosewood NCT V with Bluefire M2 (2.0mm) on both sides. A very hard blade, I believe, and I expected it to be too fast for me. The whole setup had a strange feel and sound ("tock, tock") when practicing. But when trying real match-style play I found something quite interesting. The Calibra behaved pretty much like my Mark V but with slightly better looping and serving, but no sensation. The Rosewood/M2 setup however, which at first seemed almost awkward, was more or less a sensation. Suddenly I started hitting better shots, had a never-before-seen killer backhand and still had a great control - my drop-shots and blocks confused my opponents over and over again. So the Rosewood/M2 is a very serious contestant for me, but I'm confused as the feel when practicing with it is, well, "odd", to the least.

Now, at this point I realized that I could play well with an M2. So another thing popped up in my head: "Maybe I could handle a Tenergy as well?"
Coincidentally I was given the chance to try out two Tenergy 64 (2.1mm) on a Donic Waldner Senso Ultra Carbon. This blade is interesting as it includes carbon but, as I understand it, has a softer outer ply, giving it more feel, dwell and control. I believe this setup was ok. I do not suffer a lot due to lack of control (or forgiveness), but something that I refer to as "bounciness" disturbs me and I realize that I have the same problem with my Mark V bat. Hence I call it bounce and not necessarily lack of control. And this bounciness is what is gone in the RW/M2-setup, thereby giving me the extra feel with that combo. And my practicing partners states that the RW/M2 combo clearly is faster than the T64/WSUC combo, which adds another dimension of confusion.

Now, where am I today? Well, I have two different combos that I want to test more. Specifically I need to do more testing of the RW/M2 doing loops. I would also like to know if the disturbing bounce with the T64/WSUC setup is due to the blade or the rubber. If it is the blade there is another interesting question: "How would the Tenergy 64 work on the Rosewood?" Would it be something so fast that I would only hit the wall behind my opponent? Or would it be a slightly faster but yet spinnier setup than the RW/M2 still keeping a good touch. Any ideas?
 
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Well, as an allround player I put the word control into 2 different categories.
1. With a very active FH or BH and by active I mean always looking to spin and loop and finish points early I find that people often find they have more control with rubbers that can impart more spin on the ball. Really grippy rubbers like Tenergy for example which can produce high amounts of spin, and also medium-hard sponges. I find this way to be in need of a good technique and footwork to back it up.

2. With a not so active player, like an allround player or most beginner or newer players maybe playing 1-3 years depending how quick they improve of course. Control comes with rubbers that are not so sensitive to spin, which I don't know exact reasons why but the topsheet would usually be less grippy and/or of a different material along with a softer sponge. This is what I like to call (forgiveness), when I am blocking or guiding the ball back, I can feel the large amounts of spin hitting my rubber, sucking in then releasing it more or less in the direction you want because it has taken away a lot of their spin.

So I guess it depends on your style of play, but usually the 2nd part is where most lower lvl players will find their game improves more and quicker. But of course it is subjective because if someone gets coaching or plays an awful lot then they may get places quick with the 1st. But in my experience it is 75% the 2nd.

You must be careful not to get excited because your attacking shots look so nice and lose focus on where it will hurt you. I learnt this the hard way long ago.

As for equipment, think about the Stiga allround and offensive classic. For rubbers you could just go with older tensors, or maybe the new Stiga Airoc S or something. Tenergy and Bluefire are quite sensitive to spin.

Hope this helped
 
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All the different shots in Table Tennis are... well... DIFFERENT. PLus, on the market, there is no ONE rubber that can facilitate the ease ALL the shots extremely well. Some rubbers manage to do some very well, and others less well. Some rubbers do all the shots well enough, but nor remarkably well. Such rubbers are control rubbers, like Sriver for example.

Since we modern folks want more, we are not satisfied with the ability to land the shot on the table with 100X speed and 100X spin, we want 130 speed and at least 125 spin for example. This leads many players to become an EQUIPMENT JUNKIE (EJ) to go on an endless (and very expensive) hunt for the "perfect" rubber. The truth is, a lot of us, if not all of us amature class of players, are not good enough to fully exploit the rubbers on the market. I know a player who is two full levels a better player than me (VictorK from MyTT) openly says he is not good enough to use T05 and uses Aurus instead.

What is important is that we settle in on equipment that fits our general specs, (hopefully those specs are realistic), feels good and comfortable to the player, doesn't cost an arm and a leg, and the player is satisfied with his performance using the rubber.

That can be a tall order to fill in many cases.

What the forum members are suggesting to try yourself for free when you run into club mates is in my crappy opinion, the absolute best way to go about it as an amauture player. The only better way I can think of is to make friends with a huge TT distributor who has a test room on site and visit often and tryout stuff left and right. (That is what I did at Nexy in Korea, but less frequently)

Your obvious desire to NOT waste time and money by asking at TTD is great stuff stuff too.

Unfortunately, one simply must try for themselves to know for themselves as we in armchairs do not know you and even IF we could see you in action, we are not feeling what you are feeling and not thinking what you are. Our suggestions have value to you by avoiding inefficient stuff, that is it.
 
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The Koreans with a new player solve this by listening to their coach. The coach tells them to buy such and such blade and rubber, orders it for them, and that is what they use for years. The pros from Korea are even more like that, coach told them to train with and stick with such and such... and that is what they did. You can't argue with the results.

Even in Korea though, the country has become much wealthier than ever and many amature players are equally curious about finding a better or perfect rubber and blade for them. Some Korean EJs will make US or European EJs blush and become green with envy.

We all gotta say it. DON'T go down that road, it is like a mental illness and an expensive one. Keep trying out stuff for free and keep you ears and mind open and be patient. What setup that will work for you... I think soon enough you discover something effective enough and I hope you will be satisfied with it, whatever it is.
 
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All the different shots in Table Tennis are... well... DIFFERENT. PLus, on the market, there is no ONE rubber that can facilitate the ease ALL the shots extremely well. Some rubbers manage to do some very well, and others less well. Some rubbers do all the shots well enough, but nor remarkably well. Such rubbers are control rubbers, like Sriver for example.

Since we modern folks want more, we are not satisfied with the ability to land the shot on the table with 100X speed and 100X spin, we want 130 speed and at least 125 spin for example. This leads many players to become an EQUIPMENT JUNKIE (EJ) to go on an endless (and very expensive) hunt for the "perfect" rubber. The truth is, a lot of us, if not all of us amature class of players, are not good enough to fully exploit the rubbers on the market. I know a player who is two full levels a better player than me (VictorK from MyTT) openly says he is not good enough to use T05 and uses Aurus instead.

What is important is that we settle in on equipment that fits our general specs, (hopefully those specs are realistic), feels good and comfortable to the player, doesn't cost an arm and a leg, and the player is satisfied with his performance using the rubber.

That can be a tall order to fill in many cases.

What the forum members are suggesting to try yourself for free when you run into club mates is in my crappy opinion, the absolute best way to go about it as an amauture player. The only better way I can think of is to make friends with a huge TT distributor who has a test room on site and visit often and tryout stuff left and right. (That is what I did at Nexy in Korea, but less frequently)

Your obvious desire to NOT waste time and money by asking at TTD is great stuff stuff too.

Unfortunately, one simply must try for themselves to know for themselves as we in armchairs do not know you and even IF we could see you in action, we are not feeling what you are feeling and not thinking what you are. Our suggestions have value to you by avoiding inefficient stuff, that is it.

Haha, I was planning on writing something like this once I had decided which equipment to use. I fully agree, testing is all you an do and there is no perfect rubber. What this asking TTD mainly adds is giving me idea of different aspects that I must evaluate as such - "Should I care abut this aspect?" If I decide to care about it I must evaluate any test results fromthat aspect. It "broadens one's mind", you might say.
 
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Well, as an allround player I put the word control into 2 different categories.
1. With a very active FH or BH and by active I mean always looking to spin and loop and finish points early I find that people often find they have more control with rubbers that can impart more spin on the ball. Really grippy rubbers like Tenergy for example which can produce high amounts of spin, and also medium-hard sponges. I find this way to be in need of a good technique and footwork to back it up.

2. With a not so active player, like an allround player or most beginner or newer players maybe playing 1-3 years depending how quick they improve of course. Control comes with rubbers that are not so sensitive to spin, which I don't know exact reasons why but the topsheet would usually be less grippy and/or of a different material along with a softer sponge. This is what I like to call (forgiveness), when I am blocking or guiding the ball back, I can feel the large amounts of spin hitting my rubber, sucking in then releasing it more or less in the direction you want because it has taken away a lot of their spin.

So I guess it depends on your style of play, but usually the 2nd part is where most lower lvl players will find their game improves more and quicker. But of course it is subjective because if someone gets coaching or plays an awful lot then they may get places quick with the 1st. But in my experience it is 75% the 2nd.

You must be careful not to get excited because your attacking shots look so nice and lose focus on where it will hurt you. I learnt this the hard way long ago.

As for equipment, think about the Stiga allround and offensive classic. For rubbers you could just go with older tensors, or maybe the new Stiga Airoc S or something. Tenergy and Bluefire are quite sensitive to spin.

Hope this helped

Great input! What really puzzles me though is that I perceive the Rosewood/M2 combo to be even less sensitive to incoming spin than my Mark V setup. Really strange!

As you mention Airoc S, do you believe the same goes for all soft versions of more advanced rubbers, like Rakza 7 Soft and Bluefire M3? And what rubbers do you mean by "older tensors"?
 
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Great input! What really puzzles me though is that I perceive the Rosewood/M2 combo to be even less sensitive to incoming spin than my Mark V setup. Really strange!

As you mention Airoc S, do you believe the same goes for all soft versions of more advanced rubbers, like Rakza 7 Soft and Bluefire M3? And what rubbers do you mean by "older tensors"?

That could possibly be to do with blade difference. I actually started with Mark V both sides on my stiga all classic and I have to say that it is a do it all rubber, i find it very spinny but also quite sensitive to spin. For that reason only I find my setup up now with the Genius and Genius sound to have more control.

Softer sponges generally share the same characteristic differences to the harder. Things like higher arc, more forgiving with blocks and passive shots, slower loops produce more arc so you naturally land more (because it is easier to make contact with sponge).

older Tensors like the Boost series, Genius, Baracuda, Nimbus, Energy, Genius Optimum. I think also Acuda and Aurus might be like them also but not sure on that.

The main reason a lot of Pro's and higher lvl players use medium or medium-hard rubbers is because they generally hit a lot harder, so they contact the sponge and thus get more power and spin with those. With softer rubbers it can cap out, it has its limits and thats where their bigger brothers can go further.
Yes most of us can hit hard but if we are honest how consistently, we probably give more points than win without realising it.
 
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That could possibly be to do with blade difference. I actually started with Mark V both sides on my stiga all classic and I have to say that it is a do it all rubber, i find it very spinny but also quite sensitive to spin. For that reason only I find my setup up now with the Genius and Genius sound to have more control.

Softer sponges generally share the same characteristic differences to the harder. Things like higher arc, more forgiving with blocks and passive shots, slower loops produce more arc so you naturally land more (because it is easier to make contact with sponge).

older Tensors like the Boost series, Genius, Baracuda, Nimbus, Energy, Genius Optimum. I think also Acuda and Aurus might be like them also but not sure on that.

The main reason a lot of Pro's and higher lvl players use medium or medium-hard rubbers is because they generally hit a lot harder, so they contact the sponge and thus get more power and spin with those. With softer rubbers it can cap out, it has its limits and thats where their bigger brothers can go further.
Yes most of us can hit hard but if we are honest how consistently, we probably give more points than win without realising it.

Do you believe that there are (at least) two meanings to the sentence "sensitive to incoming spin"? It is one thing to receive serves - low speed, high spin - and one thing to handle more high-speed top-spins and loops in play? What does the relation between top-sheet, rubber and blade give in all this? I somewhere read a review of a soft rubber stating that "...its surface is very grippy, hence sensitive to spin serves". I can handle loops and top-spin from my opponents, but always suffer from high-spin serves as I usually have trouble reading them. Does all this add anything to this discussion or is "sensitive to incoming spin" simply sensitive to ALL incoming spin?
 
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Do you believe that there are (at least) two meanings to the sentence "sensitive to incoming spin"? It is one thing to receive serves - low speed, high spin - and one thing to handle more high-speed top-spins and loops in play? What does the relation between top-sheet, rubber and blade give in all this? I somewhere read a review of a soft rubber stating that "...its surface is very grippy, hence sensitive to spin serves". I can handle loops and top-spin from my opponents, but always suffer from high-spin serves as I usually have trouble reading them. Does all this add anything to this discussion or is "sensitive to incoming spin" simply sensitive to ALL incoming spin?

It is just 1 meaning. Generally if a topsheet is really really spinny it will be really sensitive too. Hard fast spinny loops usually produce more spin, but a very spinny serve can show you just as well. Softer sponge just means the spin and speed of opponents shot will dig in and make contact easier with your softer sponge rubber. This is best tested and easiest to see and feel when you use same brand just different sponge hardness
 
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when someone says a rubber has excellent control, they usually mean it has good control for a rubber in that speed range. a slower rubber is pretty much always easier to control.

when moving from mark V you will encounter a lot of reviews saying X or Y rubber is too slow or maybe not spinny enough... for you this doesn't mean anything because it's still probably faster and/or spinnier than your mark V was.

so instead of believing the reviews, try out other peoples' bats and try to look for what you DON'T want. if someone's bat feels too soft make a mental note that you want something harder than A. if another one feels too fast make another note and now you have "harder than A but slower than B". this will narrow your search.

when reading through reviews only look for things that are in relation to something that you have tried.

and yes, control usually means forgiveness.

Exactly what I was going to write. Really important, you can read all you want, but there is no substitute for borrowing a friend's blade and hitting a few balls.
 
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Ok, so I decided to go with the Stiga Rosewood V and Bluefire M2. Have tested that setup for app. 10 hours and it suits me very well. Makes me more consistent and my shots faster, and even gives me that ability to trick my opponents using placement and deception. Less sensitive to spin than my Mark V.

I'm not really able to explain how this setup, with a rather hard and fast blade and medium rubbers, can give more control than my Mark V-setup, but it just proves what has already been written several times in this thread: One must try equipment, not just believe in theory and reviews by others. We are all different and have different abilities to assess ourselves and our own play. But reading, watching videos and listening to others can give us a good idea of what to look for when testing the equipment ourselves.
 
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