PDA

View Full Version : Let's talk about seamless plastic ball



Dannyzou
10-11-2014, 06:46 AM
What's your opinion on seamless plastic balls?

orient
10-11-2014, 07:06 AM
'less' spin. 'less' speed. I've already tried 4 brands,.. 'less' = just a tad differences :D

1. Xushaofa seamless 40+ - heaviest, fastest feeling that I've tried
2. stiga optimum 40+ - the lightest feeling at medium fast speed that I've tried, average durability
3. double fish 40+ - between stiga and xushaofa
4. nittaku SHA 40+ - durability at its best.. a tad slower than Xushaofa

amekun
10-11-2014, 11:39 AM
tacky rubbers imo puts the most spin in polyballs

raazzz
10-11-2014, 02:14 PM
Like orient said less speed and less spin, I have mostly been playing with the nittaku SHA 40+ and double fish 40+.

raazzz
10-11-2014, 02:14 PM
I will try out the Stiga opimun 40+ ball in the weekend.

Der_Echte
10-11-2014, 02:42 PM
Hit at Boston TTC and half their club is using Joola 40+ ball.

I want to torch every 40+ ball I can find.

The timing from the bounce is so different. I hope I can learn and adjust.

Like it or not, these new balls are here to stay.

UpSideDownCarl
10-11-2014, 03:20 PM
What's your opinion on seamless plastic balls?

Just for reference, all comments so far ignored, did not read, or somehow did not understand that the original post was NOT talking about the POLY BALL. So far everyone's comments have been about any old poly ball and all mentioned were poly balls WITH SEAM.

The original post IS talking about THE SEAMLESS POLY BALL. I think they are only available from Xushaofa. The seamless poly ball seems better than all the others. The closest to that is the Nitakku (with seam) poly ball.

I think playing with the seamless poly ball is okay. Not great. A little worse than a celluloid ball but we will live. I don't think it matters any more. They all suck but they are all good enough to play a good match.

And again, the seamless ball from Xushaofa is better than all the others.

JHB
10-11-2014, 05:59 PM
Not sure if anyone other than Xushaofa supplies seamless balls yet, although the ITTF site implies that several makers will be doing so. Most people's experience this far with poly balls has been with the seamed variety. In any case we can't really judge until the Nittaku Premium poly balls become obtainable, hopefully these will set a standard against which all the others should be judged !

Tony's Table Tennis
10-11-2014, 11:15 PM
1 word - expensive

Baal
10-12-2014, 05:31 AM
For the last 12 weeks or so, I have played almost exclusively with polyballs and I have spent a lot of money trying various brands, also letting people at my club, ratings from 1500-2600, try the balls that I buy. Also, at this point, nearly everyone at my club has switched to polyballs to get ready for national tournaments. I am around 2100 myself, and play pretty standard two wing spin game, and have been playing a really long time (I am in my 50s). I went through the 38 to 40 switch, the speed glue ban. Everything. The first time I played Dan Seemiller he had the same color rubber on both sides of his racket (it was legal then) :D. I play with a Butterfly Viscaria with T05 on both sides, usually on Tibhar Smash 28 tables in Houston Texas. (I mention this because maybe the table you use makes a difference, I'm not sure).

All of the polyballs are a little slower and a little less spinny because of their greater size. Their weights are close enough to the same that the difference in the feel of the weight is almost certainly not due to the weight itself. (Think about how when you kick a half-inflated football, it feels heavier). They will all tend to sit up a bit on pushes. Some people say the XSF ball feels heavy, some say it feels light. I don't notice any issues with ball weight.

Among the plastic balls, the XuShaoFa (XSF) ITTF approved ball is clearly a superior product -- as things stand now. I would actually say vastly superior. This is because unlike all of the Chinese seamed balls, the bounce is as high as celluloid. They provide a consistent playing quality. Their roundness is also superior. And there is absolutely no comparison regarding durability, the XSF balls last much longer than any other plastic ball, and that part is not even close. They are also cheaper at least in North America. This is not based on a small sample. I now have a bucket of about 60 of them. When they break, which does occasionally happen, they fracture completely, sometimes in the middle of a point, which is different from celluloid. But if they don't fracture, they wear a long time. By the way, this opinion is shared by every single member of my club who has tried the XSF seamless balls. In fact, the better the players are, the more strongly they express the preference for seamless. One recent US National team member in fact told me that actually he didn't want to play with the XSF balls because he knew after about five minutes that he would like them better and then it would annoy him to play in tournaments where the crappy seamed balls were being used. But then today he got so angry that he asked me to give him a few of the XSF balls.

The seamed balls I have used the most are DF, DHS, Joola, TSP, Nittaku SHA (which is made in China). They are on average all the same more or less, although for some reason the Joola and TSP ones seemed unusually bad, but maybe that was just the luck of the draw. All of these seamed Chinese balls have a quite low and inconsistent bounce, and poor durability. I would gladly join Der Echte in torching all of them. There are several buckets of DHS and DF polyballs at my club so my sample of these is pretty large too. The low bounce is much more difficult adjustment than the reduced speed and spin. Sometimes the ball more or less slides and too often it's just not where all logic and experience says it should be, and this is not a problem with XSF once you adjust to speed, which is frankly quite easy.

By the way, I have used all of these balls in all sorts of playing situations. Drills, matches against many types of players, and also coaching, where for example I am just blocking for people, or feeding balls, etc. The problems with seamed balls are a lot more apparent in match play than when you just loop and block or do some drill where you pretty much know where the ball is going.

I also need to emphasaize that I was very skeptical at the beginning about seamless balls, because the earlier versions we got were truly dreadful. Horrible sound bad play, just crap. So, if you have only had experience based on some of the older non-approved seamless balls, that is not the way things are with the current ones. I have no commercial interest in any equipment or ball either, and I don't know anyone who does.

I should maybe mention that the seamless balls I have tried have all been sold with XSF label and all are ITTF approved, and based on stamps on the box (XCAD and XDAD) were manufactured in March and April of this year. For some reason ALL of the Chinese seamed balls I have tried were made in June of this year. So maybe in time they will improve.

I have received word from Iruiru that my Nittaku Premium (Japan) polyballs have shipped. I have only played with one of those balls, it was pretty good. Better than Chinese seamed balls for sure. But truth be told, I still preferred the good XSF balls. And the Nittaku Premium are going to be really expensive.

Hopefully that is the information you were looking for. Obviously this is just my opinion (supported by a lot of different people at my club and elsewhere).

Oh, one last thing. Some people have said that this will hurt choppers and loopers. I doubt it, not in the long run. One of my playing partners is a short pip penholder, and he really likes the polyballs, pretty much all of them, and he is tougher now with these balls. I agree with people who say this style might make a comeback.

UpSideDownCarl
10-12-2014, 01:17 PM
Yeah, I think the seamless XSF poly ball is better than the others. Thank you, Baal, for a great post.

I think the problem with the XSF poly ball is a copywrite or a patent on the production, where, if the other companies wanted to produce seamless balls they would have to pay Xoshoafa for the rights and the fee would be a large one. I could be wrong about this. But, I think, originally, all poly balls were supposed to be seamless when they mandated the new balls and the companies that were not XSF banded together to make it so they could produce seamed poly balls rather than paying the large monetary fee to be able to produce seamless. I also believe Adnan Sharara had something to do with setting up the patent and then with setting things up so that table tennis would switch to seamless poly balls. In other words, the reason for the switch to the poly ball, right from the beginning, was money, not a ban on celluloid. :)

I am not sure of those facts, but I got them from somewhere and it is interesting that nobody except XSF is making the seamless ball in spite of them really being much better.

JHB
10-12-2014, 02:46 PM
1 word - expensive Indeed, but it seems to be part of TT that we happily (?) hand over up to 50GBP for a sheet of rubber and then complain about the price of good-quality TT balls. By comparison a top-class football can cost £100 or more and a cricket ball of similar quality costs upwards of £65 and lasts for less than a day's play.

It's a close-run thing, but in the 10 months that I've been at my club I've heard more balls spoken about balls than any other subject. :rolleyes:

Baal
10-12-2014, 02:49 PM
Carl, I'm a little confused about this too. Here is what I do know. I know XSF is now making balls for several other companies, including Nexy, Champion, Yinhe, Palio, Ipong and others that I am forgetting. Among these the only ones I have tried have XSF label, but I will hit with one of their "Ipong" balls later today. But there is also apparently a company in Germany called Weener (best known for making balls for underarm deodorant dispensers) who have developed a seamless ball of their own, but that may be the one that is tied up in patent issues. What little I can find on the internet is pretty unclear. Right now there are only five factories in the world that can make plastic balls: Two factories for making seamed balls in China that use the same process; the XSF seamless ball factory in China; Weener in Germany, seamless, as far as I know none of their balls are on the market; and Nittaku Japan whose first Premium seamed balls are now being shipped out, and who use a different material than other seamed polyballs.

Baal
10-12-2014, 10:13 PM
One update.  Today somebody brought some IPong seamless balls, presumably made by XSF, but not ITTF approved.  They were terrible, essentially the are the same as the XSF balls were a year ago.  Horrible sound, funky play.  Only good for serving practice. My guess is that XSF had a bunch of these left over from before and are selling them as basically practice balls or something.

Der_Echte
10-13-2014, 04:00 AM
Baal better hurry up to join me....
6555

UpSideDownCarl
10-14-2014, 02:59 AM
Baal better hurry up to join me....
http://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6555&stc=1

Hahahaha. I will join too.

I watched a few guys between 2400-2600 (USATT rated) playing matches with a Nittaku Sha Poly Ball today and they kept cursing about how bad it was. Their timing was thrown off and on touch shots the ball kept just falling off their rubbers. At one point one of them said, "you can't do that shot with this ball, you can't grab it," about a touch shot the other player tried to make. But the guy who had done the most practice and training with the Poly ball was winning all the matches even though he is 200 points lower than one of the players he was up against.

Dannyzou
10-14-2014, 03:07 AM
For the last 12 weeks or so, I have played almost exclusively with polyballs and I have spent a lot of money trying various brands, also letting people at my club, ratings from 1500-2600, try the balls that I buy. Also, at this point, nearly everyone at my club has switched to polyballs to get ready for national tournaments. I am around 2100 myself, and play pretty standard two wing spin game, and have been playing a really long time (I am in my 50s). I went through the 38 to 40 switch, the speed glue ban. Everything. The first time I played Dan Seemiller he had the same color rubber on both sides of his racket (it was legal then) :D. I play with a Butterfly Viscaria with T05 on both sides, usually on Tibhar Smash 28 tables in Houston Texas. (I mention this because maybe the table you use makes a difference, I'm not sure).

All of the polyballs are a little slower and a little less spinny because of their greater size. Their weights are close enough to the same that the difference in the feel of the weight is almost certainly not due to the weight itself. (Think about how when you kick a half-inflated football, it feels heavier). They will all tend to sit up a bit on pushes. Some people say the XSF ball feels heavy, some say it feels light. I don't notice any issues with ball weight.

Among the plastic balls, the XuShaoFa (XSF) ITTF approved ball is clearly a superior product -- as things stand now. I would actually say vastly superior. This is because unlike all of the Chinese seamed balls, the bounce is as high as celluloid. They provide a consistent playing quality. Their roundness is also superior. And there is absolutely no comparison regarding durability, the XSF balls last much longer than any other plastic ball, and that part is not even close. They are also cheaper at least in North America. This is not based on a small sample. I now have a bucket of about 60 of them. When they break, which does occasionally happen, they fracture completely, sometimes in the middle of a point, which is different from celluloid. But if they don't fracture, they wear a long time. By the way, this opinion is shared by every single member of my club who has tried the XSF seamless balls. In fact, the better the players are, the more strongly they express the preference for seamless. One recent US National team member in fact told me that actually he didn't want to play with the XSF balls because he knew after about five minutes that he would like them better and then it would annoy him to play in tournaments where the crappy seamed balls were being used. But then today he got so angry that he asked me to give him a few of the XSF balls.

The seamed balls I have used the most are DF, DHS, Joola, TSP, Nittaku SHA (which is made in China). They are on average all the same more or less, although for some reason the Joola and TSP ones seemed unusually bad, but maybe that was just the luck of the draw. All of these seamed Chinese balls have a quite low and inconsistent bounce, and poor durability. I would gladly join Der Echte in torching all of them. There are several buckets of DHS and DF polyballs at my club so my sample of these is pretty large too. The low bounce is much more difficult adjustment than the reduced speed and spin. Sometimes the ball more or less slides and too often it's just not where all logic and experience says it should be, and this is not a problem with XSF once you adjust to speed, which is frankly quite easy.

By the way, I have used all of these balls in all sorts of playing situations. Drills, matches against many types of players, and also coaching, where for example I am just blocking for people, or feeding balls, etc. The problems with seamed balls are a lot more apparent in match play than when you just loop and block or do some drill where you pretty much know where the ball is going.

I also need to emphasaize that I was very skeptical at the beginning about seamless balls, because the earlier versions we got were truly dreadful. Horrible sound bad play, just crap. So, if you have only had experience based on some of the older non-approved seamless balls, that is not the way things are with the current ones. I have no commercial interest in any equipment or ball either, and I don't know anyone who does.

I should maybe mention that the seamless balls I have tried have all been sold with XSF label and all are ITTF approved, and based on stamps on the box (XCAD and XDAD) were manufactured in March and April of this year. For some reason ALL of the Chinese seamed balls I have tried were made in June of this year. So maybe in time they will improve.

I have received word from Iruiru that my Nittaku Premium (Japan) polyballs have shipped. I have only played with one of those balls, it was pretty good. Better than Chinese seamed balls for sure. But truth be told, I still preferred the good XSF balls. And the Nittaku Premium are going to be really expensive.

Hopefully that is the information you were looking for. Obviously this is just my opinion (supported by a lot of different people at my club and elsewhere).

Oh, one last thing. Some people have said that this will hurt choppers and loopers. I doubt it, not in the long run. One of my playing partners is a short pip penholder, and he really likes the polyballs, pretty much all of them, and he is tougher now with these balls. I agree with people who say this style might make a comeback.

Baal, thank you for your support on seamless plastic ball.

Dannyzou
10-14-2014, 03:11 AM
Seamless ball is indeed a patent, no other manufacturer in the world has the technology to make seamless balls so far. That means all the seamless balls you see or use are made by the one manufaturer. XSF is the first seamless ball brand that registered on ITTF, but not the name of the manufacturer.

Tinykin
10-14-2014, 07:29 PM
The ITTF have created one almighty balls-up.
Happily for me, my local league is sticking to the cell-ball until the season's end.
Veterans tournaments are also sticking with the cell-ball.
Let's see what happens for the start of next season, for remember, the cell-ball will still be legal.

alexander.groh
10-15-2014, 11:38 AM
Baal, thank you for your support on seamless plastic ball.


Seamless ball is indeed a patent, no other manufacturer in the world has the technology to make seamless balls so far. That means all the seamless balls you see or use are made by the one manufaturer. XSF is the first seamless ball brand that registered on ITTF, but not the name of the manufacturer.
Does it means there is no point using different brands - if all balls are manufactured by one manufacturer, do they differ? I though somebody said there was five manufactures,so I am little bit confused now.. [emoji4]

Tony's Table Tennis
10-15-2014, 12:00 PM
There is 2 manufactories in China, 1 in Germany and 1 in Japan. The 2 in China has date back over a year or two already....
The patent rights to these "poly balls" does not belong to the manufactory

There was a delay/dispute in manufactoring regarding patent rights, but that got nothing to do with the amount of poly ball equip manufactories - which is increasing in numbers since 1 July 2014 already.

How ITTF Poly Ball approval works is that the manufactory will get 3 Star balls approved.
Then brands will design the label to be used on these 3 star approved balls. Then the "complete" balls will be approved by ITTF

From theory, all balls from the same factory should be the same, as the factories only have 1 set of approved balls (unless they have many sets - where the chance is slim). As I know, only 1 manufactory has the technology to make seamless

There was an ITTF presentation made few months ago regarding the above. I'm sure it is searchable on the internet

Baal
10-15-2014, 02:49 PM
Does it means there is no point using different brands - if all balls are manufactured by one manufacturer, do they differ? I though somebody said there was five manufactures,so I am little bit confused now.. [emoji4]

There are five manufacturers of PLASTIC 40+ balls. Among these, only XSF currently makes the SEAMLESS version of plastic balls currently sold. Three factories make seamed plastic balls. One other has a seamless technology but as far as I can tell, has not brought a ball to market.

The XSF ITTF approved ball is quite good. They manufacture balls for Yinhe, Nexy, Stag, Palio and some others. They also make a variety of 1 and 2 star training balls using some variation of the process. Don't mistake those for the ITTF approved versions.

There is apparently some history behind this. DHS originally had an agreement with XSF and Palio to make a joint operation out off the seamless ball, which uses a new technology altogether, and also a new material, but somehow disputes arose. So DHS ended up making balls using a different plastic (not the same as in DHS), to make balls using the same procedures they always used to make seamed celluloid balls. DF does the same thing. All but one of the seamed polyballs sold today are made in those two plants by what is essentially a new materaial but an old process. The result is a fragile ball with a low bounce.

Nittaku in Japan is now selling a seamed ball that is quite different in terms of process and material. That ball is not to be confused with the Nittaku SHA 40+ which is the same as the DHS ball. It bounces more like celluloid than other seamed balls.

alexander.groh
10-15-2014, 04:20 PM
There are five manufacturers of PLASTIC 40+ balls. Among these, only XSF currently makes the SEAMLESS version of plastic balls currently sold. Three factories make seamed plastic balls. One other has a seamless technology but as far as I can tell, has not brought a ball to market.

The XSF ITTF approved ball is quite good. They manufacture balls for Yinhe, Nexy, Stag, Palio and some others. They also make a variety of 1 and 2 star training balls using some variation of the process. Don't mistake those for the ITTF approved versions.

There is apparently some history behind this. DHS originally had an agreement with XSF and Palio to make a joint operation out off the seamless ball, which uses a new technology altogether, and also a new material, but somehow disputes arose. So DHS ended up making balls using a different plastic (not the same as in DHS), to make balls using the same procedures they always used to make seamed celluloid balls. DF does the same thing. All but one of the seamed polyballs sold today are made in those two plants by what is essentially a new materaial but an old process. The result is a fragile ball with a low bounce.

Nittaku in Japan is now selling a seamed ball that is quite different in terms of process and material. That ball is not to be confused with the Nittaku SHA 40+ which is the same as the DHS ball. It bounces more like celluloid than other seamed balls.
Thanks! Sorry for my stupidity :D

Tony's Table Tennis
10-16-2014, 10:46 AM
Yes, Baal is right,

It is 3 in China, 1 in Germany and 1 in Japan
Namely

DHS, Double Fish and Xushaofa from China
Nittaku from Japan
Weener from Germany

Not sure how I remembered only 2 from China...lol

TTFrenzy
10-16-2014, 03:15 PM
Yes, Baal is right,

It is 3 in China, 1 in Germany and 1 in Japan
Namely

DHS, Double Fish and Xushaofa from China
Nittaku from Japan
Weener from Germany

Not sure how I remembered only 2 from China...lol


weener from germany? I ve never heard this company have you tested its balls Tony?

In 3 months from now the poly ball will be the official ball in all the divisions of the Greek championships.

If anyone has tried 72-144 balls packages 1 star or training balls with good durability please provide me some info about which company to select.

Correct me if Im wrong but from what I have read so far in forums and other players reviews, the only seamless ball and probably the one with the best durability is the 3 star from XushaoFa

Baal
10-16-2014, 10:55 PM
The ITTF approved XSF ball is very good at a very good price. Round, plays well, high bounce, excellent durability. Like all 40+ balls it is a little slower and a little less spin.

Weener was mentioned in an ITTF document but have not brought a ball to market as far as I know.

I'm not sure what to recommend for a 40+ training ball.

TTFrenzy
10-16-2014, 11:53 PM
The ITTF approved XSF ball is very good at a very good price. Round, plays well, high bounce, excellent durability. Like all 40+ balls it is a little slower and a little less spin.

Weener was mentioned in an ITTF document but have not brought a ball to market as far as I know.

I'm not sure what to recommend for a 40+ training ball.

Thanks alot my friend. I hope the new poly balls are durable as the celluloid ones. A 144 celluloid balls package approximately 5-6 months max before the balls start to wear out and lose weight thus efficient grip on the rubbers. I hope they make them better without any breakings after some training sessions

Baal
10-18-2014, 03:29 AM
Thanks alot my friend. I hope the new poly balls are durable as the celluloid ones. A 144 celluloid balls package approximately 5-6 months max before the balls start to wear out and lose weight thus efficient grip on the rubbers. I hope they make them better without any breakings after some training sessions

If durability is an issue, I would avoid the seamed Chinese polyballs for awhile at least. They really need to improve that.

Baal
10-18-2014, 03:36 AM
SOmebody asked if, given that the Chinese seamed balls are all made the same, if there is any use to trying different brands. The answer is possibly. This is because Double Fish and DHS seamed balls are made by the same (or similar) process but at different factories. I have seen several comments on varioius forums that the Double Fish are better than the various brands made in DHS factory (which includes nearly all the other brands). That's not been my experience but some people may be using Double Fish balls made a bit more recently than the ones I tried. Maybe they have improved? I don't really know.

I have been playing with Nittaku Premium Japan 40+ balls that I just received from Iruiru. In terms of playing properties these are the best ones of all. Nice high bounce like XSF, but maybe a little more solid feeling (but my guess is they will be less durable based on how they are wearing on the surface). In my experience these and the XSF 3-star are best and there is a gap and then all others.

Wally
10-20-2014, 11:40 PM
Hi,
I've recently tried new german seamless balls by a brand called HANNO (http://www.hanno-tischtennis.de/).

The bounce was pretty normal compared to some of the seamed balls, but it felt like there was less spin than on other polyballs.

The store I bought them at said they were made in Germany.

Has anyone else tried those balls as well?

Baal
10-21-2014, 02:11 AM
Wally, I strongly suspect that this ball is made by XSF, for two reasons. The first reason is that this document here http://www.ittf.com/stories/pictures/Plastic_Balls_Q_A.pdf from ITTF seems to say that the German ball (manufactured by a company called Weener) has seams. Only XSF is currently manufacturing a seamless ball. Also, what you describe could also apply to XSF, which is arguably slightly less spinny than, say, DHS, certainly less spinny than the Nittaku Premium 40+ that is made in Japan. However XSF has a more normal bounce than Chinese seamless.

I have not tried them though.

Sergio Gonzalez
10-21-2014, 02:19 AM
The balls are broken 15 minutes or even less -.- , but make easy the top against top spin game :D

allencorn
10-21-2014, 06:22 AM
Baal better hurry up to join me....
http://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6555&stc=1

Ah, but has anyone burned a polyball? The celluloid balls were great fun to burn.

kamkaran
10-21-2014, 09:42 AM
Hi!
I guess Its fantastic!!!!

Wally
10-21-2014, 04:21 PM
Baal, yeah the way you describe the XSF sounds very similar to the German one. I've tried the seamed Stiga and Tibhar and they were both more spinny but the bounce seemed a bit off. With the German seamless ball I didn't have the issue of misjudging the bounce/length but it felt like the ball lost a lot of spin. Makes it easier to play topsin rallies though :D

Der_Echte
10-21-2014, 08:17 PM
If that device in my pics fails to annihilate whatever you are trying to burn, it is time to run for the hills for Ur lives !!

Baal
10-21-2014, 09:05 PM
Given my choice, I would play with the Nittaku Premium 40+ ball that is made in Japan. I got a few of those from Iruiru (and once again they are indefinitely back-ordered). They are really good. Best playing ball of all but really expensive even when you can actually buy the damned things, which seems not to be the case at the moment. BUT, the good seamless balls like XSF are the next best thing (if they are ITTF-approved ones), and best of all, you can actually buy them now at a fair price.

The Chinese balls with seams (that is, everything else!!) ALL deserve the Der Echte solution (including the Nittaku SHA 40+ ball, which is not the same thing as the one I mentioned above).

UpSideDownCarl
10-29-2014, 07:45 PM
Ah, but has anyone burned a polyball? The celluloid balls were great fun to burn.

Hahaha. I Love Der_Echte's photo.

Let's try it side by side, poly ball vs celluloid ball whichever burns better, the ITTF has to use it.

Celluloid burns like a comet.

igorponger
11-04-2014, 04:14 AM
ITTF does want the ball less spinny.

The new plastics stand for lower rotation speed and better controlled play, so ITTF will favour it so much.

Yinhe40+ is now the best reputed seamless ball.

igorponger
11-04-2014, 04:28 AM
http://www.ittf.com/stories/Stories_detail.asp?ID=206


ITTF does want the ball less spinny.

The new plastics stand for lower rotation speed and better controlled play, so ITTF will favour it so much.

ttnb
11-04-2014, 01:27 PM
I think I can clarify some issues on the celluloid free table tennis balls.
Patent issue: Patents are valid only in countries where it has been granted. The patent holder has the right to prevent others to manufacture/use the patented product/process only within that country.
Indeed there is a granted patent to "In Sook Yoo International Project Management - IPM" in United States (US8105183), Korea (KR101331035), Japan (JP5078894) China (CN101272830) and in countries which are a party to European Patent Convention (EPC) (AT, BE, BG, CH, CY, CZ, DE, DK, EE, ES, FI, FR, GB, GR, HU, IE, IS, IT, LI, LT, LU, LV, MC, NL, NL, PL, PT, RO, SE, SI, SK and TR) (EP1924331). Please note that IPM has to pay the necessary fees to those countries to keep the patent rights. Furthermore, there is an opposition to the EP1924331 patent. At the end of the opposition procedure within the European Patent Office, that patent may be totally revoked within EPC countries.
The scope of protection of the patent: I'll only evaluate the EP patent. The patent claims "Celluloid-free table tennis ball, preferably having a diameter of 38.5 to 45 mm, a weight between 2.0 and 4.5 grams and a shell thickness between 0.20 mm and 1.30 mm, where the shell is composed of plastics whose principal component is an organic non-crosslinked polymer, which has not only carbon atoms but also heteroatoms in its main chain, characterized in that the principal component a) is a thermoplastic, furthermore b) is having a density according to DIN EN ISO 1183 of 1.22 g/cm3, as well as c) is having water absorption at standard climate according to DIN EN ISO 62 of less than 1.0 %." All other claims are dependent on this claim. If any manufacturer in any of the above mentioned countries, manufactures a table tennis ball according to the claim, without the consent of IPM, will be infringing the patent rights, regardless of the ball being seamless or not.
However, any table tennis ball manufactured by using crosslinked polymer will not infringe the IPM patent. Also, even if non-crosslinked polymer is used, if the specifications of the polymer is different than that of the specified in (a), (b) or (c), there will be no infringement; eg., anyone can use a non-thermoplastic polymer, or a thermoplastic polymer with a density of less than 1.22 g/cm3, without the fear of the patent.
Since there are many celluloid-free balls on the market, the manufacturers may have either have found ways to avoid the patent or may be manufacturing with the consent of IPM.
IPM patent is not valid in other countries. For example, any manufacturer can manufacture in India and export to countries which are patent free.
Possibility of different characteristics of table tennis balls manufactured by the same company: Contract manufacturers manufacture according to the process and specifications of the contract giver. To give an example, DHS may manufacture its own balls according to its own specifications and for lets say for Stiga with according to Stiga's specifications, or to Butterfly with the same specifications with DHS if Butterfly accepts. They are arranged with commercial agreements within companies.
I hope it helps.
Regards

Baal
11-04-2014, 01:36 PM
Yes, I suspect the material is how the patent is being evaded. As for your last point, it is true that the brand can tell to the manufacturer what quality control specs they will accept, but the fact is that there is almost no difference between the playing properties of seamed plastic balls made in China.

Here is one other point in favor of seamless balls vs. seamed balls currently made in China.

All of the ITTF-approved seamed Chinese plastic balls (such as Nittaku SHA) have manufacture date of June 2014 or later. I think this is because the T3 circular from ITTF was modified in May 2014 to allow a delay in balls meeting final specs until January of 2016. This meant that ITTF would approve what in effect are crappy balls, and so they started selling them at that point. Seamed plastic balls could not have been approved before then, I am guessing because they didn't meet specs for bounce, roundness and weight (and/or possibly durability). Something was substandard or they wouldn't have needed to announce temporary change in what they will allow, and I personally can't see how the bounce of these balls meets the specs. Supposedly once January of 2016 comes around, all the balls will have to meet the original stringent standards, according to ITTF.

The seamless XuSaoFa ITTF approved balls that I have were made in March and April of 2014, importantly this is BEFORE that temporary change. That means that those seamless balls already met the ITTF specs that will exist in Januar 2016 because at the time they were approved, those were the specs. I think that is why a lot of us prefer their playing properties.

In my experience, the best playing plastic ball is Nittaku Premium Japan 40+ (not the same thing as Nittaku SHA 40+). But it is almost impossible to buy at the moment. The next best choice in terms of playing quality is an ITTF-approved seamless ball. Unfortunately, many tournaments are using these Chinese made seamed balls like Joola 40+, DHS, Nittaku SHA, which are really inferior and have properties that are only being approved on a temporary basis for the next 13 months.

Tinykin
11-04-2014, 04:58 PM
Baal, do the ITTF specs for the 40+ state that the balls must be non-celluloid?
That is, could a manufacturer make a celluloid ball or poly+celluloid to 40+ specs?

Baal
11-04-2014, 08:20 PM
It does not formally say that there can be NO celluloid in it, but I doubt that is what makers are doing. This is what ITTF Technical Leaflet T3 says:

Material
Notwithstanding the instability and flammability of celluloid, it has always been the standard material for a table tennis ball. The Laws do not prescribe the material, leaving manufacturers free to experiment. We need a better material, and manufacturers are encouraged to search for one. Experience suggests, unfortunately, that the search will be a very difficult one.

The ITTF Equipment Committee will support balls with a playing performance similar or identical to that of celluloid balls. We are aware that some of the specifications given in this Technical Leaflet can be met only with difficulty by non-celluloid balls. The Committee is prepared to accept a compromise which makes an approval possible if the playing characteristics are similar or identical to those of currently approved balls. However, the ball shall have good and stable properties, which must not change at typical use before, during and after play, except a regular ageing, which should be kept at a minimum. E.g.: Permanent indentations or stress whitening as well as a flimsy or battered appearance must be clearly avoided.

Here is the official leaflet with a lot of information on how they will test.

http://www.ittf.com/stories/pictures/T3_Ball40mm_BoD2013.pdf

M51
11-14-2014, 08:45 PM
I tried a DHS *** poly ball today, and while it wasn't as bad as I feared, something definitely did feel off. It's almost as if it lacks arc compared to the old celluloid ball.

Der_Echte
11-14-2014, 11:07 PM
I had my second hit with the NEXY 40+ Poly Ball, which is supposed to be made in the same factory as XSF, since this ball is seamless. I got a six pack (of the 40+ balls) and I kept two, sent the other 4 out to a 2300+ modern defender to tryout and handout.

I can say my experience with the Nexy 40+ Poly Ball is a ton more positive than with the Joola 40+ Poly ball. After one match, I had an immediate and burning desire to find and promptly disintegrate EVERY Joola 40+ ball I could get within FLAME TORCH range. Dude, I wanted to burn every one of those suckas so bad, I never wanted to see another Jolla 40+ ball ever again.

Of course this ball is plastic AND it is around 1 full mm larger than the celluloid balls we are accustomed to, but this thing played like a celluloid ball or what I would expect out of a celluloid ball that is larger. Consistent enough bounce, no weird hops, no sudden braking effect on a light push (man I HATED that with the Joola) no swing and miss on balls near endline... I could go on, but this thing played reasonably close enough to celluloid ball.

I would not go into a national protest if my next tourney used these seamless balls.

M51
02-11-2015, 07:51 AM
Tried the Joola *** poly ball yesterday, and it was a god damn nightmare. Bounce completely uneven an unpredictable, and I was really struggling to produce spin. My backhand loops are usually spinny as hell (my game relies on that quite a bit), and my opponents didn't seem to have any trouble blocking or countering my forehand loop attacks. Also, a lot of my backhand blocks hit the net.

It really took me some tome to adjust to it, but when I switched back to celluloid, it was as if I died and went straight to heaven.

mrmr1964
02-11-2015, 08:24 AM
Have tried a number of seamed and seamless balls. Without a doubt the best ball out there is the XuShaofa is the best. They've absolutely nailed it. The quality hardness and bounce is outstanding. The most disappointing was the Stiga ball. The DHS seamed balls come in second behind the XSF ballls. All the balls I tried were the ITTF 3 star competition balls.

UpSideDownCarl
02-11-2015, 12:54 PM
I am going to edit this but leave the original because it is funny: Original in brackets and a funny color: [There are very few good balls out there. All the seamless balls are actually made by XSF and they are all pretty decent. Better than all the seamless balls but one. Better by a mile. A kilometer. A 100 kilometers. The one seamless ball that is good is the Nitakku PREMIUM 40+ ***. The one made in Japan. NOT THE Nitakku Sha 40+ *** (made in China), but the Nitakku Premium 40+. That one is really good. Better than anything else, except in one way. The XSF ball is more durable. But the Nitakku Premium plays better and does not break quite as easily as all the other seamed balls. I don't know why, but they are doing something right.

It would be interesting to see what would happen if Nitakku made a seamless ball in Japan (a seamless Nitakku Premium!!!). That would undoubtedly be the best by far.]

Edited version with what I meant:

There are very few good balls out there. All the seamless balls are actually made by XSF and they are all pretty decent. Better than all the seamed balls but one. Better by a mile. A kilometer. A 100 kilometers. The one seamed ball that is good is the Nitakku PREMIUM 40+ ***. The one made in Japan. NOT THE Nitakku Sha 40+ *** (made in China), but the Nitakku Premium 40+. That one is really good. Better than anything else, except in one way. The XSF ball is more durable. But the Nitakku Premium plays better and does not break quite as easily as all the other seamed balls. I don't know why, but they are doing something right.

It would be interesting to see what would happen if Nitakku made a seamless ball in Japan (a seamless Nitakku Premium!!!). That would undoubtedly be the best by far.

Thanks Baal for pointing out how I just kept using the word seamless to mean seamed. :)

Baal
02-12-2015, 04:58 AM
Carl, in your post I think you wrote seamless several times when you meant to write seamed. And you are right, the only ball with seams that is worth a crap is the Nittaku Premium, which is currently indefinitely backordered everywhere in the world as far as I can tell (in other words, you can't even buy the damned things).

So buy seamless. They are better and cheaper.

M51
02-12-2015, 06:39 AM
How are these chinese balls in terms of spin?

BTW, what about Butterfly? Their three-star poly balls are supposed to be official balls for the upcoming WTTC, but they're only available for pre-order in their webshop. Has anyone actually tried them yet?

UpSideDownCarl
02-12-2015, 09:24 AM
Carl, in your post I think you wrote seamless several times when you meant to write seamed. And you are right, the only ball with seams that is worth a crap is the Nittaku Premium, which is currently indefinitely backordered everywhere in the world as far as I can tell (in other words, you can't even buy the damned things).

So buy seamless. They are better and cheaper.

You are right. hahaha. I am going to edit it. Thanks for knowing what I meant and disregarding what I said. hahah.

UpSideDownCarl
02-12-2015, 09:28 AM
How are these chinese balls in terms of spin?

BTW, what about Butterfly? Their three-star poly balls are supposed to be official balls for the upcoming WTTC, but they're only available for pre-order in their webshop. Has anyone actually tried them yet?

I am pretty sure that if it has a seam and it is not the Nitakku Premium, it sort of sucks. That, it has an inconsistent bounce because of the seam and it breaks too easily because of the hardness at the seam. And when the seamed balls break, the split at the seam and are instantly done. They sort of look like Pac-Man when they break.

http://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6991&stc=1

amekun
02-12-2015, 11:45 AM
i just got my BTF poly balls now will be trying them tom, idk how to upload photos U.U

Baal
02-12-2015, 12:51 PM
Sadly, the Btfly 40+ is basically the same as Double Fish -- just another terrible seamed Chinese ball with a low bounce.

UpSideDownCarl
02-12-2015, 01:04 PM
Sadly, the Btfly 40+ is basically the same as Double Fish -- just another terrible seamed Chinese ball with a low bounce.

Yep...it breaks like Pace-Man, just like all the seamed balls.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Der_Echte
02-12-2015, 04:08 PM
I think Baal and Carl are the only two US forum members who actually put .25 cents into an arcade machine and played the original Pac-Man in te 70s and know what a "Jukebox Hero" is.

ttmaniac
02-12-2015, 05:22 PM
I have tried butterfly 40+ plastic ball and I think that it' s just fantastic. I love to play with that ball because rallies are much longer than with celluloid ball...I play topspin against topspin rallies and i like the way it feels... I have won against a guy who was stronger then me with the celluloid ball. I' m so exited to play with that balls also in my locali league...☺

amekun
02-13-2015, 11:51 AM
Tried BTF and Yasaka Balls today
both brands are getting closer to a perfectly round ball
consistent bounce which is good
but Xushafao still the best for me <3

Baal
02-14-2015, 03:06 PM
Jukebox Hero? Man, that's going back!

Der_Echte
02-14-2015, 04:00 PM
Yup, it's old-school night at the old-fogie home... but I got a wayz to go before I am Berndt's grumpy old man status.

Waldner1965
02-15-2015, 06:55 AM
After countless balls broken and split in half, there is the XSF with good quality.

I have written a blog post about it also, please visit, comment and subscribe

Zaid323918
02-06-2017, 04:50 PM
The XuSauFu whatever the name is ball is the only seamless ball I know of. It's also the best ball I have ever used. I got 3 of them and each one lasted more than a month. (Playing an hour at least 6 days a week) They bounce a little higher than the others and are a bt heavy but still they are the best. I don't know if the Nittaku Premiums are better but they are more expensive.

Baal
02-06-2017, 04:54 PM
The XuSauFu whatever the name is ball is the only seamless ball I know of. It's also the best ball I have ever used. I got 3 of them and each one lasted more than a month. (Playing an hour at least 6 days a week) They bounce a little higher than the others and are a bt heavy but still they are the best. I don't know if the Nittaku Premiums are better but they are more expensive.

Nittaku Premium plays closer to celluloid (mainly because they are slightly smaller than seamless), costs more, and is less durable. It requires a little less of an adjustment. So a lot of people like them better from a purely playing perspective (I do). But if the seamless ball was the standard, I would be perfectly happy. They are consistent, round, and durable and they are the best value among plastic balls.

The thing we are all waiting for is the new DHS D40+. Supposedly made of the same material and by a process similar to the Nittaku Premium. Will it be as good? Where will they price it? I think we will know before too much longer. The current DHS 40+ is an embarrassment (or should be).

Zaid323918
02-06-2017, 04:57 PM
Yup I don't know why ITTF lets DHS be the tournament ball

Baal
02-06-2017, 04:57 PM
$$$$$$$

That is why.

Zaid323918
02-06-2017, 05:02 PM
$$$$$$$

That is why.

Yo live in Houston? Cool I am in Austin TX

suds79
02-06-2017, 05:19 PM
The XuSauFu whatever the name is ball is the only seamless ball I know of. It's also the best ball I have ever used. I got 3 of them and each one lasted more than a month. (Playing an hour at least 6 days a week) They bounce a little higher than the others and are a bt heavy but still they are the best. I don't know if the Nittaku Premiums are better but they are more expensive.

I've hit with the XSF ball. Really nice.

You should try out the seamless Gambler 3 star ball. Cheaper and i swear if you took off the logo, I wouldn't be able to tell the difference between that and that XSF ball.

Amazing ball. Our club uses it.

sold at zeropong or megaspin

UpSideDownCarl
02-06-2017, 05:26 PM
Yup I don't know why ITTF lets DHS be the tournament ball

To my mind, the real question is why does the ITTF let those poor quality, not round, balls with an inconsistent bounce even get a 3-star label. They shouldn't even be 2-star. They are more like 1-star or 0-star in my book.

And, as far as I am concerned, the fact that they allowed balls that bad to receive a 3-star rating makes me question what 3-star means.

Butterfly G40+ would be okay if they were more consistently round. But they also wear out too fast.

Nittaku Premium 40+ is the one I like playing with best. It plays really nicely. You can also spin them better than the others. They are pretty durable. But not as durable as the seamless.

And the seamless balls: I like these too. How durable they are is a big plus. And they play pretty well even if I like the way the Nittaku Premiums play better.


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

songdavid98
02-06-2017, 05:41 PM
The XuSauFu whatever the name is ball is the only seamless ball I know of. It's also the best ball I have ever used. I got 3 of them and each one lasted more than a month. (Playing an hour at least 6 days a week) They bounce a little higher than the others and are a bt heavy but still they are the best. I don't know if the Nittaku Premiums are better but they are more expensive.

Each one lasted more than a month? I can only assume that you don't hit very hard. Either that or you have balls of steel.

Nittaku premiums are better and longer lasting. But not the ones made in China.

Xiom makes poly balls that play exactly like XushaoFa balls, but are more durable.

Double fish poly balls and some DHS ones are a little soft. Same with the old JOOLA ones.
I don't know about the new JOOLA balls.

Butterfly is okay? I think?

EDIT:
I feel that the biggest problem with the poly balls is that they are too different. Players have to adapt to each one.
I played NCTTA divisionals yesterday, and they were using the double fish poly ball. The first game I played was against this solid 2100 player. I lost the first two games simply because I wasn't used to the ball (I play mostly with the XuShaoFa balls). I had to adjust my technique and use more forearm, and then I proceeded to win the next three games.

Suga D
02-06-2017, 05:57 PM
Xiom makes poly balls that play exactly like XushaoFa balls, but are more durable.
Interesting. I thought they are all produced at the same factory.

Baal
02-06-2017, 06:22 PM
Interesting. I thought they are all produced at the same factory.

If it is true, it could be that Xiom demands slightly different QC specs. This is not impossible, in fact I very much suspect that different seamless balls have different consistency according to brand.

However, I ordered some Xiom balls early on and never noticed any difference in durability (doesn't mean there wasn't one, but it didn't grab my intention). In fact I would not believe it without some carefully documented data on it. Impressions on stuff like this are easy to come by and easily wrong (which I don't intend with any disrespect to the songdavid98). I have just learned from work and from TT that stuff like this really need quantitative measures (and descriptions of what was measure and how).

By the way, I definitely have the impression that XSF had some quality control issues for awhile there and I have no idea if they have solved them because I ordered a bunch at the beginning and haven't gone through all of them. Of course, I can't document it with numbers either.

In general, seamless balls are the most durable 40+ balls, probably the most durable balls made since the start of the 40 mm era in the early 2000s. Nittaku Premium 40+ balls are average durability, not to different from their cellulloid, and far better than other seamless balls.

Ioiettino
02-06-2017, 07:00 PM
Each one lasted more than a month? I can only assume that you don't hit very hard. Either that or you have balls of steel.

Nittaku premiums are better and longer lasting. But not the ones made in China.

Xiom makes poly balls that play exactly like XushaoFa balls, but are more durable.

Double fish poly balls and some DHS ones are a little soft. Same with the old JOOLA ones.
I don't know about the new JOOLA balls.

Butterfly is okay? I think?

EDIT:
I feel that the biggest problem with the poly balls is that they are too different. Players have to adapt to each one.
I played NCTTA divisionals yesterday, and they were using the double fish poly ball. The first game I played was against this solid 2100 player. I lost the first two games simply because I wasn't used to the ball (I play mostly with the XuShaoFa balls). I had to adjust my technique and use more forearm, and then I proceeded to win the next three games.

Joola Flash are the same as XSF, if I am not mistaken. I like them. Not the spinniest of all as mentioned previously, and a Butterfly ball felt very lively after making the switch during the same session. The bounce was maybe a notch lower with the Bty, but it's not clear in my mind as arcs on spinny loops felt somewhat higher (statement to be taken with a pinch of salt).
Butterfly balls do get that shiny thin-skinned aspect after a little use, making them feel a little flimsy. Still playable, mind you. I had a Joola Flash that broke after just a couple of hours, but in general they feel a lot sturdier.

Other than that, things must have improved / I got used to them / I have a poor touch, because I really don't mind the seamed Stiga anymore, even the training ones. Not sure whether there is a consensus with regards to higher quality?

Ioiettino
02-06-2017, 07:04 PM
If it is true, it could be that Xiom demands slightly different QC specs.


They do charge as though that is the case..

laistrogian
02-06-2017, 07:58 PM
To my mind, the real question is why does the ITTF let those poor quality, not round, balls with an inconsistent bounce even get a 3-star label. They shouldn't even be 2-star. They are more like 1-star or 0-star in my book.

And, as far as I am concerned, the fact that they allowed balls that bad to receive a 3-star rating makes me question what 3-star means.

Butterfly G40+ would be okay if they were more consistently round. But they also wear out too fast.

Nittaku Premium 40+ is the one I like playing with best. It plays really nicely. You can also spin them better than the others. They are pretty durable. But not as durable as the seamless.

And the seamless balls: I like these too. How durable they are is a big plus. And they play pretty well even if I like the way the Nittaku Premiums play better.


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

The seamless balls are more durable for you? Nittaku premium has actually been the one that's most durable for me, similar to BTY's celluloid durability. With XSF, if I hit 2 or 3 edges with my paddle, it's most probably a goner.

and I can't get used to how G40+ plays, it somewhat likes to rocket itself from the table and it sounds like a cracked ball all the time

Baal
02-06-2017, 09:31 PM
The seamless balls are more durable for you? Nittaku premium has actually been the one that's most durable for me, similar to BTY's celluloid durability. With XSF, if I hit 2 or 3 edges with my paddle, it's most probably a goner.



Yes no question. And I have been using seamless from the beginning, and Nittaku Premium too, and I have had several hundred seamless and lots of Nittaku also (but not as many). If you don't strike a seamless ball on an edge, it lasts forever. Edges can kill them in a dramatic and catostrophic manner. Mostly mine die by being stepped on or they get lost. Nittaku Premium durability is ok, not great, not bad either. Pretty much the same as their celluloids. The surface gets shiny very quickly. They can develop small cracks that are hard to see and at first they play ok even with the crack, and almost never shatter the way seamless do.

I also dislike G40+, though. To smooth on the surface and that has a bad effect on many things. They seem very durable. They play better than Chinese seamed balls, which is not saying much.

Baal
02-06-2017, 09:32 PM
They do charge as though that is the case..

Yes, I have noticed that.

Actually my favorite ones these days are from Yinhe.

Suga D
02-06-2017, 10:03 PM
If it is true, it could be that Xiom demands slightly different QC specs..

Well i'm not sure if this needs to be questioned. I think the chances are quite high that it could be true since there is only five ball producing factories for the 40+ balls worldwide.
1. Double Happiness/DHS
2. Double Fish
3. XushaoFa
4. Nittaku
5. Weener
according to ITTF Sheet.
12061

https://www.google.de/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.old.ittf.com/stories/pictures/plastic_ball_12_08_14.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwj215qSx_zRAhWTzRoKHcC7AXoQFghHMA8&usg=AFQjCNE5x4dU8hWyuD__9tI3Yxqqoa_fFg&sig2=ZDjEDdp9Ya6jWaXchnCkBw

But you could be right about the QC.
This here has been an interesting read:

http://www.equipmentjunkie.com/table-tennis-ball-reviews/

yuri.saldon
02-07-2017, 12:34 AM
Nittaku Premium plays closer to celluloid (mainly because they are slightly smaller than seamless), costs more, and is less durable. It requires a little less of an adjustment. So a lot of people like them better from a purely playing perspective (I do). But if the seamless ball was the standard, I would be perfectly happy. They are consistent, round, and durable and they are the best value among plastic balls.

The thing we are all waiting for is the new DHS D40+. Supposedly made of the same material and by a process similar to the Nittaku Premium. Will it be as good? Where will they price it? I think we will know before too much longer. The current DHS 40+ is an embarrassment (or should be).
Actually dhs d40+ are sold in tabletennis11. I'm very curious about the ball quality until now have few but good reviews

Sent from my 2014819 using Tapatalk

Baal
02-07-2017, 12:58 AM
No, just checked, those are the seamed 40+ plastic balls DHS has been selling ffrom the beginning. You had me quite excited so I went to buy some from TT11. But those are not the new D40+ balls made of the newest material and the micro seams (like Nittaku Premiun). And they are not very good unfortunately. The wait continues.

Baal
02-07-2017, 01:05 AM
Well i'm not sure if this needs to be questioned. I think the chances are quite high that it could be true since there is only five ball producing factories for the 40+ balls worldwide.
1. Double Happiness/DHS
2. Double Fish
3. XushaoFa
4. Nittaku
5. Weener
according to ITTF Sheet.
12061

https://www.google.de/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.old.ittf.com/stories/pictures/plastic_ball_12_08_14.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwj215qSx_zRAhWTzRoKHcC7AXoQFghHMA8&usg=AFQjCNE5x4dU8hWyuD__9tI3Yxqqoa_fFg&sig2=ZDjEDdp9Ya6jWaXchnCkBw

But you could be right about the QC.
This here has been an interesting read:

http://www.equipmentjunkie.com/table-tennis-ball-reviews/

I would be surprised if any forum members have tried as many different plaxtic balls as I have. I made it mission for quite a long time. The info in that last link you posted agrees with my experience. One thing I would add is that while it is true that Chinese seamed 40+ balls improved a little, their bounce is still too low and inconsistent.

Baal
02-07-2017, 01:13 AM
Each one lasted more than a month? I can only assume that you don't hit very hard. Either that or you have balls of steel.

Nittaku premiums are better and longer lasting. But not the ones made in China.

Xiom makes poly balls that play exactly like XushaoFa balls, but are more durable.

Double fish poly balls and some DHS ones are a little soft. Same with the old JOOLA ones.
I don't know about the new JOOLA balls.

Butterfly is okay? I think?

EDIT:
I feel that the biggest problem with the poly balls is that they are too different. Players have to adapt to each one.
I played NCTTA divisionals yesterday, and they were using the double fish poly ball. The first game I played was against this solid 2100 player. I lost the first two games simply because I wasn't used to the ball (I play mostly with the XuShaoFa balls). I had to adjust my technique and use more forearm, and then I proceeded to win the next three games.

You should instead assume that I rarely mis-hit on the edge of my blade!

My club has a Gerflor and green tarps on the walls. They improve visibility but also cushion balls striking the wall. Maybe that affects how our balls wear or break.

Joola seamed balls are bad as ever.

I am frequently breaking Nittaku Premium, so at their price i sort of ration them out. I still pefer to play with them. But seamless is fine.

pgpg
02-07-2017, 01:17 AM
...
Nittaku premiums are better and longer lasting. But not the ones made in China.

...

I think Nittaku Premium 40+ are only made in Japan. Nittaku SHA 40+, on the other hand... But we don't mention them in polite company :rolleyes: , these are/were horrible in my experience.

yuri.saldon
02-07-2017, 02:13 AM
No, just checked, those are the seamed 40+ plastic balls DHS has been selling ffrom the beginning. You had me quite excited so I went to buy some from TT11. But those are not the new D40+ balls made of the newest material and the micro seams (like Nittaku Premiun). And they are not very good unfortunately. The wait continues.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170207/a60923d00bf92559d9789060e57f9d4c.jpg

It isn't a 3* ball but for test that's fine.

Sent from my 2014819 using Tapatalk

Der_Echte
02-07-2017, 02:24 AM
Over the last few years I have seen many Nittaku ball snobs. I have no problem playing with Nittaku Premium, but ONLY with that ball... well... whatever.

Baal
02-07-2017, 03:13 AM
I think Nittaku Premium 40+ are only made in Japan. Nittaku SHA 40+, on the other hand... But we don't mention them in polite company :rolleyes: , these are/were horrible in my experience.

pgpg is correct.

By the way, another point about durability is that one has to consider how the outer surface wears, not just how long before they break. I personally don't like to use balls that get worn and shiny and the Nittaku Premium 40+ gets that way relatively quickly (a feature that was also true of their best celluloid balls, oddly enough). All in all, their durability is ok at best, nothing remarkable, and nothing awful either, and considering their price, using those balls is a bit of a luxury. The outer surface of seamless balls is a lot more durable. The Butterfly G40+ are the worst in this regard.

As for DHS, there is a reason balls are not 3*. I hope the 3* ITTF approved D40+ comes out soon. (As things stand now, I would take a Nittaku J-top training ball over any Chinese seamed ball any day).

Der_Echte
02-07-2017, 05:16 AM
By a Country Mile.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsgtxIWZndI

ttmonster
02-07-2017, 05:28 AM
While I agree with your comment about Nittaku J-top , I don't seem to have the problem on the longevity that you seem to be having with Nittaku premium. We have a good flooring but thewalls are not protected with any covering.
However, I have come across boxes of Nittaku which have QC issues where all three break pretty quick, however the ones that last , last forever .... and we don't hit the edges that often either ..



pgpg is correct.

By the way, another point about durability is that one has to consider how the outer surface wears, not just how long before they break. I personally don't like to use balls that get worn and shiny and the Nittaku Premium 40+ gets that way relatively quickly (a feature that was also true of their best celluloid balls, oddly enough). All in all, their durability is ok at best, nothing remarkable, and nothing awful either, and considering their price, using those balls is a bit of a luxury. The outer surface of seamless balls is a lot more durable. The Butterfly G40+ are the worst in this regard.

As for DHS, there is a reason balls are not 3*. I hope the 3* ITTF approved D40+ comes out soon. (As things stand now, I would take a Nittaku J-top training ball over any Chinese seamed ball any day).

TTHopeful
02-07-2017, 07:02 AM
DHS have a new ball coming out...

Zaid323918
02-07-2017, 12:50 PM
Well I don't hit super hard but I play at home so when I do smash it hits a wall or lamp somewhere. (Most 3 stars I've tried bust up in less than a week after this treatment)

Baal
02-07-2017, 12:58 PM
DHS have a new ball coming out...

Hopefully soon. Actually the fact that they are still not selling the D40+ yet gives me some reason for optimism. They are taking their time to get it right.

Baal
02-07-2017, 01:03 PM
While I agree with your comment about Nittaku J-top , I don't seem to have the problem on the longevity that you seem to be having with Nittaku premium. We have a good flooring but thewalls are not protected with any covering.
However, I have come across boxes of Nittaku which have QC issues where all three break pretty quick, however the ones that last , last forever .... and we don't hit the edges that often either ..

For sure some boxes are worse than others. But that is part of the assessment. Overall durability is ok but not remarkable. It is not their best feature. I have been using them since they came out so i am basing this on about a hundred balls.

NextLevel
02-07-2017, 01:34 PM
https://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/forum/cache.php?img=https%3A%2F%2Fuploads.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F20170207%2Fa60923d00bf92559d9789060e57f9d4c.jpg

It isn't a 3* ball but for test that's fine.

Sent from my 2014819 using Tapatalk).

I have tested them (like Baal, I test all the 3 stars and since I coach, I also test the ones that are not 3 star). The ball gives me hope. The sound is not great but it seems consistent. I haven't put it through matches though, just some practice hits.

NextLevel
02-07-2017, 02:00 PM
Definitely not the same.

TurboZ
02-07-2017, 02:17 PM
Hopefully soon. Actually the fact that they are still not selling the D40+ yet gives me some reason for optimism. They are taking their time to get it right.

The 3 Star D40+ with Ding Ning on the box has start shipping from taobao in 2017. I have placed an order for a few through online shopping agent but probably has to wait a bit because all business activities have just been resumed from a long CNY holiday and need some time to consolidate everything. I am still deciding if I should go ahead with their new GA5 and GA8 pair or wait for TT11.

Baal
02-07-2017, 02:30 PM
Please give a review when you get them. I will wait until I can get them from TT11.

Baal
02-07-2017, 02:35 PM
Now. I know 2 kind Ball Butterfly. Butterfly ball made in Germany and Butterfly ball made in China. Butterfly ball made in China no good. But ball butterfly made in Germany is good and same ball nittaku made in japan

vợt bóng bàn hà nội (http://dungbongban.com/vot-bong-ban-ha-noi-tag.html)

Sorry no. The Butterfly G40+ that is made in Germany is not much like Nittaku Premium (Japan) and it is not like anything else. It is absolutely not the same ball.

The G40+ has a weird sound. It has a very smooth surface right out of the box (this is very different from Nittaku) and is clearly made from a completely different kind of plastic. It moves through the air fast and straight (like a bullet) and it tends to slide on the table sometimes rather than bounce. It doesn't lose much spin in the air and after bouncing so more residual spin is left when it hits your blade. It bounces high which is good, and it is very round. It doesn't crack but it starts out shiny and gets even shinier with very little use.

I don't personally like them very much (but better than the ones made in China for Bttfly by Double FIsh). Nittaku Premium is much better for the price.

tropical
02-07-2017, 05:29 PM
Now. I know 2 kind Ball Butterfly. Butterfly ball made in Germany and Butterfly ball made in China. Butterfly ball made in China no good. But ball butterfly made in Germany is good and same ball nittaku made in japan
12082
vợt bóng bàn hà nội (http://dungbongban.com/vot-bong-ban-ha-noi-tag.html)

No comparison! the Premium Nittaku made in Japan is a much superior ball in terms of consistency and durability than the G40+; however, not cost. No one in my club likes to play the G40+ or the SXF balls except the club owner (he has Butterfly sponsorship) and some Chinese players as SXF is cheap and durable.

Der_Echte
02-07-2017, 09:45 PM
With the G40, vs incoming heavy topspin, you needed to speed up your timing, those balls kicked and sped up something fierce. Ping sounded cracked shytty but short bounce seamed reasonable enough.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

hangdog
02-08-2017, 12:15 PM
No, just checked, those are the seamed 40+ plastic balls DHS has been selling ffrom the beginning. You had me quite excited so I went to buy some from TT11. But those are not the new D40+ balls made of the newest material and the micro seams (like Nittaku Premiun). And they are not very good unfortunately. The wait continues.

The DHS Dual sold at TT11 is the D40+. I've bought them in 1-star & 2-star – the boxes have a picture of Ding Ning, whereas the earlier DHS 40+ boxes have a picture of Ma Long. The translucent lettering next to the photo of the ball on the box (both 1-star & 2-star) says "D40+ CTTA APPROVED".

1-star: http://www.tabletennis11.com/other_eng/dhs-dual-1-40-10-balls-seam

2-star: http://www.tabletennis11.com/other_eng/dhs-dual-2-40-10-balls-seam

Baal
02-08-2017, 01:25 PM
Thats geat info. Thanks.

Just ordered some to check them out. Unfortunately they were sold out of ** balls so I will have to get a feel for them with the *.

yuri.saldon
02-08-2017, 03:54 PM
Thats geat info. Thanks.

Just ordered some to check them out. Unfortunately they were sold out of ** balls so I will have to get a feel for them with the *.
When you received pls post a review.

But I think the price must be considerate.

That is the cheapest plastic ball I ever seen

Sent from my 2014819 using Tapatalk

Baal
02-08-2017, 04:18 PM
When you received pls post a review.

But I think the price must be considerate.

That is the cheapest plastic ball I ever seen

Sent from my 2014819 using Tapatalk

yes, I will definitely not be to hard on them given the price.

Ioiettino
02-11-2017, 06:27 PM
One thing I would add is that while it is true that Chinese seamed 40+ balls improved a little, their bounce is still too low and inconsistent.

I do retract some of my new-found enthusiasm towards them. Feeling good for a couple of sessions doesn't mean all equipment (balls included) has become much better...

Anyhow, whichever it is, I can't wait for the days when one technology has become the norm.

Suga D
02-12-2017, 01:04 AM
Just bumped into this here


https://www.instagram.com/p/BQYxW7oBEIA/