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Bryce
06-04-2011, 02:58 PM
Hey guys, any tips on making a serve more spinny?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8u5_QnsIaZI

chughtai
06-04-2011, 03:00 PM
keep ur wrist free

tpgh
06-04-2011, 05:14 PM
work on your impact. the speed of your wrist upon contact with the ball is the most important. if you look up service videos, you'll get lots of help

lesliefrancs
06-04-2011, 05:21 PM
stiff wrist = no service.
If you want to practice wrist action only during service, use the v-grip, it gives you the most leverage on the wrist while serving.

Try to incorporate your elbow and deltoid into the service as well. Longer lever (arm instead of just the hand) = more leverage = more spin.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXKR97DWEr0

tpgh
06-04-2011, 05:22 PM
i've also got a service video if you're interested in looking at it. maybe it'll help you out.

Bryce
06-04-2011, 06:08 PM
Im trying to use my wrist but some times it just feels awkward and i make mistakes sometimes. Is it just lack of practice? Or just wrong techinique?

tpgh
06-04-2011, 06:12 PM
can't tell unless there's a video of you doing the serves. most of the time it's lack of practice...

Bryce
06-04-2011, 06:14 PM
Ok i'll practice more. Do you need to use body movement and a wide arm swing?

tpgh
06-04-2011, 06:24 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VYspPpbCKI

Bollforte94
06-04-2011, 06:28 PM
there are some nice services :) service is only practice practice practice! but have only one ball in your hand during practice!

tpgh
06-04-2011, 06:29 PM
never~!!!! =p

jkc
06-04-2011, 08:50 PM
The most important thing to work on is the wrist flick, and you can do that away from the TT table. Have 5 or 10 mins each day tossing the ball and then brushing under it. Catch the ball loosely in your fingers and see how long you can make the ball spin in your hand for.

Bryce
06-05-2011, 03:40 PM
I find it odd doing the wrist flick. So it's down to lack of practice isn't it?

YosuaYosan
06-05-2011, 03:50 PM
Dont forget to put your concentration and effort on every ball..

Steve23
06-05-2011, 04:16 PM
Try brushing the ball with alot of speed

sehskyle
06-05-2011, 05:17 PM
There are good services without using that much wrist, but try hitting the ball from about straight underneath it (once you get that to be spinny, the most valuable serve you can have from hitting under the ball, is short and dead). I personally really like Wang Hao and Ma Longs motion.

azlan
06-05-2011, 06:01 PM
Hi Bryce, most people have the misconception that it's all in the wrist, in fact it is not. Though it plays a role in your over all serve, most amateurs forget to use their entire body including their feet. Wrist work is only the the final act of your service. Serving with your arms and wrist will not get you the ultimate spin on the ball. Rehearse your serves without the ball 1st, and try to use your body. And once you start using the ball, try not to toss the ball too high. Get your actions right 1st.
Your toss is as important as your serve too. Pros always toss the ball into their bodies (amateurs toss in front of their bodies). This is to get maximum ball dwell time on the bat, which means maximum spin. Tossing the ball parallel or in front of you will result in minimum dwell time, coz otherwise you'll end up serving on the table, which will be a foul serve.
Good luck, and happy training.

Bryce
06-06-2011, 02:21 PM
I thought tossing the ball towards the body was illegal?

YosuaYosan
06-06-2011, 02:25 PM
I thought tossing the ball towards the body was illegal?

Covering the serve with your body is illegal, not tossing the ball towards it IMO..

dici
06-06-2011, 02:34 PM
I thought tossing the ball towards the body was illegal?

well, it kind of in between the grey line. Sometimes the umpire will call a fault on it, while most of the time the wouldn't. I'm believe that there are a certain range of angle where they would not call for illegal throw. However, as I practice the service, throwing the ball toward body is one of better and easier method.

Bryce
06-06-2011, 02:39 PM
Maybe the throw isn't the most important thing.

CJ
06-06-2011, 05:00 PM
I agree with Azlan the most important thing is dwell time this can be increased as said above by throwing the ball into your body slightly. you can use as much wrist as you want but if its only a very quick sharp contact you will struggle to get lots of spin. Try learning to reverse serve as it is a more natural angle and you will generate more spin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mX_n36wr-lI"

this is probably the best service video on youtube notice how he throws the ball in to him

Anders
06-06-2011, 08:51 PM
I think you need to use all of your body when youre making a service, not just the vrist. If you are just making the service with the wrist you will fail often... Try to rotate your body towards the point you want to serve, then lover the shoulder of the service arm just as you hit the ball. Its kinda hard to explain, you just have to experiment yourself.. try to make your own service, not everybody elses'

Good Luck! :D

tpgh
06-06-2011, 11:37 PM
throwing towards the body helps a bit for sure. but just make sure that it's 'mostly' a vertical toss....if not, then you might get called on it. as i said before, the ability to spin is directly linked to your ability to IMPACT the rubber. you can jab, wrist flick...whatever, as long as you get to spin the ball a lot. it's all linked to the feel of the ball. if you can't get better at your feel for the ball, then it will hinder your serves.

azlan
06-07-2011, 09:49 AM
thought tossing the ball towards the body was illegal?

Yousa was right, covering the serve as we know is illegal. When I say tossing the ball towards your body, I mean tossing it, NOT throwing the ball horizontally towards your body and into the bat (which is a foul = illegal).

CJ
06-10-2011, 12:21 AM
When people say feeling is it the same as dwell time yes ?

YosuaYosan
06-10-2011, 03:04 AM
Not actually the same.
Dwell time is the time when the ball sinks into the rubber and sponge which make the rubber able to produce spin.
Longer dwell time = moooaarr spin :D

tpgh
06-10-2011, 06:29 AM
feeling refers to the ability to control the dwell time, to know how much spin you're putting on the ball, what kind of contact you're making with the ball (roll, jab, heavy, etc...)

YosuaYosan
06-10-2011, 06:38 AM
damn right tpgh thats feeling..

UpSideDownCarl
06-10-2011, 02:28 PM
I am glad the conversation got around to contact, feeling and dwell time. In my opinion, that is really where your serves get more spin. The contact you want is a lot like the contact you want for doing a touch loop against underspin. When you do that, what you do is try to contact the edge of the ball. A lot of people at the club I play at call this "brush contact". It is sort of right but not detailed enough. What you are trying to do is catch just the edge of the ball but you are trying to let the ball sink in to the rubber and you are making solid contact with the edge of the ball rather than brushing past it. As you catch the edge of the ball and let the ball sink in to the rubber, you feel for when the rubber grabs the ball. Then, when the rubber has grabbed the ball you accelerate the stroke, or snap; and here is where you would add extra motion from your wrist: not before. When you do that you get a ton of spin on the ball on your loop.

When you are serving you want to do something very similar. There are a few drills I do for looping underspin and when I have done them and then I practice my serves I notice that I just naturally am getting way more spin than normal. At a certain point I think that just becomes natural and you don't need the drills to find that contact as you are warming up. So practicing serving could help your ability to loop, and practicing looping underspin could help your ability to get more spin on the serves.

The main differences between looping underspin and serving are obvious. When you serve, the ball does not have spin of its own, you are tossing the ball to yourself and the stroke is a different motion. But how you contact the ball and how you generate spin are the same. When you contact the ball, you are looking to make contact with the edge of the ball. You want to feel the edge of the ball sink in to the rubber and you want to feel the rubber grab the ball. Then you want to accelerate your stroke. It does not matter how you generate that acceleration, the speed is actually not as important as the acceleration: that the racket is going from a slower speed to a faster speed while the ball is on the rubber. A wrist snap works really well, but in some of those shovel serve variations, there is very little movement from the wrist and there is still a ton of spin. However, the wrist motion is probably the easiest way to get that acceleration and that snap.

If you get that contact, it feels like you can do almost anything with the racket to get a lot of spin. However, if you have the movement in place, get the contact and time the snap of the wrist so that the blade accelerates after you contact the ball and the rubber has grabed the ball, you are going to get a lot of spin. Then when you do your no-spin serves they will be very effective as well.

tpgh
06-14-2011, 02:59 AM
damn, that's a +1000 right there. great post Carl! my serve motion is more of a jab than a high toss roll. i find that it helps me keep my serve more consistent and it allows me to get the spin i want. the only downside i have so far is my ability to vary the amount of spin. i can do heavy, really heavy, medium. but dead and very little spins are going to be hard with my motion. i have to open up the bat if i want to.

back on topic, also remember to vary your bounce so that the opponent doesn't get in a rhythm. vary the bounce placement and also vary the bounce tempo. that'll drive people nuts =)

WiWa
06-14-2011, 07:12 AM
Very good post Carl. Thanks for the insights :) I have to say I'm not patient enough to practise my service often. I use tons of different serves, which I kinda make up on the spot. None of them are very strong or hard to return I think, but my opponent never knows what he is gonna get, and that is an advantage as well. But I know I'm gonna have a very hard time getting into a good service rhytm again when I'm recovered.

olvarox
06-14-2011, 09:10 AM
Hi there

I'm always having this problem:
I know how to serve with pendulum, but I can only do it while holding my blade in a normal fashion.
Whenever I try to hold it like Timo Boll, or Michael Maze - so not by the handle, but by the rubber - The service goes well, but I just can't get my blade back into my hand in time to hit my 3rd ball.

This is very frustrating, since I know perfecting my service means holding my blade differently, but then having the "perfect" serve, I can't hit another ball, cuz I'm seemingly too slow to do this.

Is there any hint or trick to this?

poltery
06-14-2011, 10:03 AM
@ sir olvarox- I had encountered that problem when i was beginning to serve pendulum, however i have surpassed that problem by doing the same grip as ma long's which is slightly covering the handle with ur mid-finger ,ring finger and pinky.
hope this helps :))))

WiWa
06-14-2011, 10:22 AM
@Olvarox
The grip while serving is practically the same, with this difference that only two fingers hold the racket. To get in normal grip u just put the other three fingers around the blade in shakehand grip I thought. Do u maybe have a video of ur pendulum serve?

EnglishWelshMan
06-14-2011, 02:56 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FulrQMbFGOo

WiWa
06-14-2011, 03:02 PM
@EnglishWelshMan
That is so awesome. Totally owned him there xD

Bryce
06-15-2011, 08:39 AM
About reverse services, i find it hard to brush the ball with that sort of motion.. Even missing it sometimes.. Any tips?

scylla24
06-16-2011, 02:04 AM
yeah, reverse pendulums are pretty hard for me. When I do them, they are always either no spin or some top spin, and I never can usually get any good amount of backspin on them.

Does anyone have any advice on how to do a good short topspin serve. I have a really good short backspin and short no spin serves, I just need to incorporate a good short topspin serve also that also looks roughly the same, and it will allow me to win a lot of points easier because my opponents find it hard to tell which one i am doing.

I tend to always have trouble with the short topspin. Since its topspin its usually faster and bounces higher than other serves so its hard for me to do a good short top spin serve such that my opponent can't attack easily. Just from watching the commentary Will Henzell made where he analyzes the game between Boll and Ma Lin, Boll uses the short top spin serve often and its pretty effective against Ma Lin.

tpgh
06-16-2011, 02:18 AM
short topspin is basically trying to get the ball to 'hop'. that's going to be the hardest thing probably. you can't bounce it onto the table because it'll sail long. also remember that you need to emphasize on spin rather than speed.

UpSideDownCarl
06-16-2011, 06:06 AM
For the reverse pendulum, it is much easier to do if you have a slightly different grip than for the regular pendulum. For regular pendulum I leave the thumb and index finger basically where they would be for regular strokes and just remove the other three fingers. I use the middle finger on the side of the handle to help the wrist move the racket. This way, it is very easy to regrab the racket. I do not even notice this process.

With the reverse pendulum, it helps the wrist movement to hold with the thumb and index finger a little off to the side of the handle. This makes it so you have a lot more wrist movement and the wrist movement is more comfortable in the reverse pendulum movement. It does take a little bit more effort to regrab the handle though. A little practice and you get used to this. I almost never notice this either but once in a while I notice the transition after the serve.

If you watch some of those videos, Timo Boll does even more than this when he does the reverse. Sometimes he has his index finger almost at the edge of the blade. But if you look at Werner Schlager's serves, and his serves are at least as good as anybody's, he can do all of his serves while fully holding the handle even though he can also do them while only holding with the index finger and thumb.

UpSideDownCarl
06-16-2011, 06:20 AM
Reverse Pendulum gets a lot of spin but takes a lot of patience and practice. However, I am like Wiwa, I don't usually practice my serves. I like to create while playing. But when ever I get to practice my serves they get a lot better so it is worth it.

I have recently discovered that if you practice serves penhold, you can figure out a lot of stuff about how to improve your serves shakehand. Because you have so much more use of your wrist when holding penhold, it is easy to use the same motion to get underspin, sidespin and topspin. Once you feel how to do that with the penhold grip you can translate that to help yourself understand what you need to do to get the wrist action for those spins with a shakehand serve grip. With a penhold grip it is very easy to get short, low, very spinny topspin serves that look like they are underspin to someone who is not paying close attention and watching the bounce.

WiWa
06-16-2011, 08:42 AM
Carl what is the difference between pendulum and reverse pendulum? I'm not really familiair with those terms, I thought there was only one version of reverse/pendulum serving xD

dici
06-16-2011, 12:50 PM
For right handed player, when you do the pendulum serve, the ball will bounce and rotate to your right hand side. When the opponent return it, supposely the ball will bounce to your left. So, reverse pendulum (or the back hand style serve in some sense) just the other way round

WiWa
06-16-2011, 01:22 PM
Okay thanks, so the pendulum serve is actually just a normal sidespin serve?

tituus
06-16-2011, 01:58 PM
Work on your impact and your timing in your impact, it can be a quite a big change.

olvarox
06-16-2011, 02:00 PM
Wiwa, if you look at the Timo Boll video in the first post of the thread, you can see Timo do the pendulum up to the 45th second, and he starts doing reverse pendulum from the 46th second onwards.

- With normal pendulum, you brush the ball with your blade coming towards your body (regular FH sidespin)
- With reverse pendulum, you brush the ball with your blade going away from your body.

In a sense, reverse pendulum means you do a backhand serve with your forehand...
The reason players do this, is to
1. disguise till the last fraction of a second what serve they are going to produce
2. maintain a standard serving position at the table, no matter what serve they are producing
3. being able to produce short, long, fast, slow, side-, under-, float- and topspin serves in all possible directions with a serve that is 100% identical in movement until the last flick of the wrist.

Really worth while to practice and master!

UpSideDownCarl
06-16-2011, 03:11 PM
Olvarox has explained this well.

"- With normal pendulum, you brush the ball with your blade coming towards your body (regular FH sidespin)
- With reverse pendulum, you brush the ball with your blade going away from your body."

This is a nice explanation as well:

"In a sense, reverse pendulum means you do a backhand serve with your forehand..."

That is a great way of thinking of the reverse.

The important thing to understand, which olvarox also explains, is that with a pendulum or a reverse pendulum serve you can:
-deliver an underspin serve with varying degrees of sidespin.
-deliver a serve that has pure sidespin.
-or you can deliver a serve that has topspin with varying degrees of sidespin

The motion is the same with all the spin variations, the angle of the paddle can change a little, but the main thing that causes you to get a different spin is when you contact the ball. The motion of the racket is a swinging motion, almost a half circle. If you contact the ball while you are going down, or under the ball, it will be underspin. If you contact the ball while the blade is going sideways, parallel to the ground, you get side spin. If you contact the ball when the blade is coming back up, this will give you topspin.

When you are doing a regular pendulum serve, the side spin will be trying to pull your opponent's shot towards your backhand side (it does not matter if you are lefty or righty, the spin will pull the ball towards your backhand). When you do the reverse, it will pull the ball towards your forehand. This is another reason to use these serves depending on what setup you want.

WiWa
06-16-2011, 04:40 PM
Olvarox and Carl, thanks for the explanation. I understand it now. At my level mastering the backspin version of reverse pendulum is gold, because whenever a player get a reverse pendulum served against them, they expect sidespin/topspin. I am desperate to master this within a year or so, but it is really hard to a good load of backspin on it. I once saw a righthanded person serve reverse pendulum backspin against a lefthanded player. He just served all his services long to his opponents FH, none of them came back over the net. And this lefthanded player was really an awesome player, but jut couldn't return that serve. So impressive.

ttEDGE - William
06-17-2011, 01:51 AM
yeah, reverse pendulums are pretty hard for me. When I do them, they are always either no spin or some top spin, and I never can usually get any good amount of backspin on them.

Does anyone have any advice on how to do a good short topspin serve. I have a really good short backspin and short no spin serves, I just need to incorporate a good short topspin serve also that also looks roughly the same, and it will allow me to win a lot of points easier because my opponents find it hard to tell which one i am doing.

I tend to always have trouble with the short topspin. Since its topspin its usually faster and bounces higher than other serves so its hard for me to do a good short top spin serve such that my opponent can't attack easily. Just from watching the commentary Will Henzell made where he analyzes the game between Boll and Ma Lin, Boll uses the short top spin serve often and its pretty effective against Ma Lin.

I have the utmost respect for Timo's serves after having analysed his match against Ma Lin. I haven't seen ay other player who varies his serve as much as Timo.

Timo uses an extremely fast wrist movement and rotation of the wrist to get his racket moving fast and brushing the ball in order to get maximum spin. It's not just his wrist moving in isolation though and his body is generally moving towards the ball as he is making contact.

In that set you mention scylla (below) you can see Timo's heavy topspin serve at 02:25, 06:08 and 07:52.

We've got a coaching video specifically about the reverse serve under the intermediate section on ttedge.com. Players often don't use enough wrist on their reverse serves which means they don't get enough speed or spin on the serve.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1oP0nKi6ms

nick
06-17-2011, 06:43 AM
This is an excellent thread. Thanks guys.

moriguchi2
08-25-2011, 06:34 AM
use body forearm and wrist to get the most spin. make sure to graze the ball and not hit it flat

scylla24
08-26-2011, 03:12 PM
I recommend watching this two part serving clinic.

It is by a guy named Richard McAfee, who is a US coach, and who despite not being in great shape and movable anymore, is still ranked 2200-2300 which in the US is pretty impressive. Anyway, he gives a pretty good overview of serving and some tips. It probably will not be all that great for anyone who is intermediate level and above, because most of the stuff he talks about you should already know by then, but it still is great for beginners, and also may fill in some holes for even intermediate players.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coqYai89Myo


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8FYyIVpjww

YosuaYosan
08-26-2011, 03:54 PM
Ah its Sir Richard McAfee.
He also made TT books :D

Rhydian
02-06-2012, 04:44 PM
Wow!
Thank you for that!! Even if it's a bit ago! ^^

blahness
02-08-2012, 03:52 AM
Olvarox and Carl, thanks for the explanation. I understand it now. At my level mastering the backspin version of reverse pendulum is gold, because whenever a player get a reverse pendulum served against them, they expect sidespin/topspin. I am desperate to master this within a year or so, but it is really hard to a good load of backspin on it. I once saw a righthanded person serve reverse pendulum backspin against a lefthanded player. He just served all his services long to his opponents FH, none of them came back over the net. And this lefthanded player was really an awesome player, but jut couldn't return that serve. So impressive.

I use a similar hook serve with a lot of backspin on it, and most of the time people think it's sidespin/topspin, when in fact it is heavy side-unders. I think with serves, you need to go "against" the crowd in order to have success. Most of my hook serves are heavy side-under, but most of my pendulum serves are heavy side-top. Most of my long serves are underspin variants but most of my short serves are topspin and no-spin variations...

JustAlt
02-08-2012, 06:44 AM
My tips in improving service:

-If you want the most spin, try to contact the ball lightly, so that the ball doesn't go long. I know many players that can't do a spinny backspin serve unless it's long because they are contacting the ball too hard.

-Think about spin + placement combination; for example in general it is a bit more difficult to return pendulum serves from the backhand corner and reverse serves from the forehand corner because of the angle of the blade that "has to be" used when returning. This is more about tactics but equally as important to learn as technique. And again in general if you want the ball returned to your backhand, serve reverse sidespin and vice versa. Just watch the pros, the backhand oriented like Wang Hao and Zhank Jike serve a lot of reverse sidespin whereas forehanders like Ma Lin and Ma Long serve more pendulum.

I just should start to think about this tactical stuff more instead of just playing. It was a pleasant surprise to see my serving tactic work at least once: I was leading a game 10-9 and serving, so I was thinking about how to put this one in my pocket. My opponent was a lefty and he had backhand flicked a couple of my serves to my wide forehand so I served short reverse side(similar serve to Wang Hao's, hopefully I'm not breaking a copyright law) to the middle of the table to make the chance of backhand flick smaller, but still make him think about whether to take it with bh or fh. He misread the spin and pushed the ball high to my bh, from where I finished with a diagonal forehand "smashdrive". After this I was like dauym, maybe I should use my brains more often.

YosuaYosan
02-08-2012, 06:57 PM
Just wanna encourage what Sir Moriguchi said..
Using the BODY is important indeed!